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Author Topic: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)  (Read 5146 times)

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Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2015, 04:28:55 PM »
And that is where we have a difference of opinion :)

I think somebody who worked her whole life, paid taxes, has been an asset to her community and her country should be given priority over refugees from a different country.


You probably disagree. Fair enough. :)


I'm not saying they should sent the immigrants back. Shelter them in a refugee camp until you got a more permanent solution for them.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2015, 04:33:10 PM »
I'm not saying they should sent the immigrants back. Shelter them in a refugee camp until you got a more permanent solution for them.

  But a permanent solution...is going to be a house. And they are going to get it instead of a British citizen whether they get it immediately or after spending 2 years in a refugee camp.

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2015, 04:35:43 PM »
A permanent solution is to end the war or the terrorists and send them home.

Guess I'm the only one who sees sheltering immigrants as a band aid on a shark bite. There is a much deeper problem that should be addressed but alright.

Can't blame politicians for not having vision like normal people have right? They're only human.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2015, 04:37:27 PM »
A permanent solution is to end the war or the terrorists and send them home.

  So they stay in a refugee camp just until we sort out Africa and the Middle East? So many will spend their entire lives in the camp. Wouldn't giving them a house and a chance at becoming productive British citizens be a better long term plan? What happens if we end one war and a new one starts, or a new terror group emerges?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 04:38:53 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2015, 04:40:12 PM »
If by 'we' you mean the US... than no. God no.

You stay away from anything diplomatical, cause the only diplomatic solution the US has, is to arm the country, or bomb it.


If the rest of the world gets involved, if the reasons why people join IS are solved, if we listen to what the people in those countries are saying, IS would be wiped out in a few months. No more new recruits is the end for IS.


But yes, refugees being allowed into a country is a privilege, not a law. Don't overstay your welcome.

Offline Vekseid

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2015, 04:55:08 PM »
  I don't quite get what you mean by this, or why you think pure tolerance somehow relates to what I said. Why was my statement fucked up?

It's fucked up because you are advocating continuing the cycle of violence. British and other European citizens who had nothing whatsoever to do with why these people are suffering must now suffer because 'of the West's actions'?

How long do you think this will be tolerated?

There is a reason why fascism - by whatever name it may hide under - is on the rise.

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2015, 04:58:11 PM »
If by 'we' you mean the US... than no. God no.

You stay away from anything diplomatical, cause the only diplomatic solution the US has, is to arm the country, or bomb it.

Dashenka, please refrain from making sweeping generalizations like that. 

You take offense when members make similar generalizations regarding Russia, so it is not okay to make generalizations regarding the U.S.

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2015, 04:59:34 PM »
It's fucked up because you are advocating continuing the cycle of violence. British and other European citizens who had nothing whatsoever to do with why these people are suffering must now suffer because 'of the West's actions'?

How long do you think this will be tolerated?

There is a reason why fascism - by whatever name it may hide under - is on the rise.


Yes that. I was afraid it would land me in troubles saying it like that but that is what I mean. Why should my friend wait six more months in a house she really can't live in because half way around the world there is a group of dimwitted idiots displacing their own people.

I know it sounds cruel and hard but it's the truth.


Dashenka, please refrain from making sweeping generalizations like that. 

You take offense when members make similar generalizations regarding Russia, so it is not okay to make generalizations regarding the U.S.

You are right. I apologize. Shouldn't have said that.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2015, 05:04:51 PM »
It's fucked up because you are advocating continuing the cycle of violence. British and other European citizens who had nothing whatsoever to do with why these people are suffering must now suffer because 'of the West's actions'?

  How is accepting refugees advocating a continued cycle of violence? How is accepting refugees violent? I wasn't even advocating anything in the statement you quoted, just laying out how difficult the situation was due to the West's involvement in the Middle East, making it a little hard to say "your country, your problem" when the problem was caused by Western meddling. And, kinda. Sure the average British citizen has nothing to do with colonialism, but they also have very little to do with Britain's economic standing, and yet they reap the benefits of that freely. The West, mainly the USA, but other powers like Britain and France are not blameless, has a long history of meddling in Africa and the Middle East. I believe that if you are lucky enough to be born into a Western nation and inherit all the social, financial and political benefits, you should also inherit some of burden of dealing with the continued fallout from exploitation and interference your country rendered onto others, especially when it was these misdealing that contributed to the wealth the country enjoys today. We armed the Taliban and made it what it is today, so we cannot now flat out refuse to house refugees displaced by them.


Yes that. I was afraid it would land me in troubles saying it like that but that is what I mean. Why should my friend wait six more months in a house she really can't live in because half way around the world there is a group of dimwitted idiots displacing their own people.

  Because the borders drawn by Britain heavily contribute to the problem? Or helped arm the group that displaced them. Also that's another generalization, which you just apologized for doing in the sae post.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 05:07:08 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2015, 05:10:54 PM »
  How is accepting refugees advocating a continued cycle of violence? How is accepting refugees violent? I wasn't even advocating anything in the statement you quoted, just laying out how difficult the situation was due to the West's involvement in the Middle East, making it a little hard to say "your country, your problem" when the problem was caused by Western meddling. And, kinda. Sure the average British citizen has nothing to do with colonialism, but they also have very little to do with Britain's economic standing, and yet they reap the benefits of that freely. The West, mainly the USA, but other powers like Britain and France are not blameless, has a long history of meddling in Africa and the Middle East. I believe that if you are lucky enough to be born into a Western nation and inherit all the social, financial and political benefits, you should also inherit some of burden of dealing with the continued fallout from exploitation and interference your country rendered onto others, especially when it was these misdealing that contributed to the wealth the country enjoys today. We armed the Taliban and made it what it is today, so we cannot now flat out refuse to house refugees displaced by them.

  Because the borders drawn by Britain heavily contribute to the problem? Or helped arm the group that displaced them. Also that's another generalization, which you just apologized for doing in the sae post.

I'm sure my friend would love to benefit a little less from the 'Western wealth' if that means she can actually get a house she can live in.

The normal civilians never asked for the Taliban to be armed or for their governments going to fight a war everybody knew they couldn't win. I'm not talking of only the US. The EU jumped in as well, knowing the war couldn't be won. The civilians never asked for that, yet they are now the ones who have to deal with it.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2015, 05:13:12 PM »
I'm sure my friend would love to benefit a little less from the 'Western wealth' if that means she can actually get a house she can live in.

The normal civilians never asked for the Taliban to be armed or for their governments going to fight a war everybody knew they couldn't win. I'm not talking of only the US. The EU jumped in as well, knowing the war couldn't be won. The civilians never asked for that, yet they are now the ones who have to deal with it.

  The refugees never asked for it either. Given the quality of live Westerners enjoy, I find inconveniencing them to be the preferable approach.

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2015, 05:16:14 PM »
As I said, I'm all for helping and sheltering them. Just not at the cost of the local population.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2015, 05:22:00 PM »
As I said, I'm all for helping and sheltering them. Just not at the cost of the local population.

  So Britain fucked up their country before they were even born because drawing practical borders would have been too much like hard work, helps arm a violent, de-stabilizing paramilitary force that drove them from their homes, then agrees to help them, as long as its not to the cost to the local population? I'm no psychologist, but I'm pretty sure growing up in a refugee camp will leave some mental scarring on a child, which seems like a rather high price to pay to avoid bothering the locals.

  Its a difficult situation sure, because I am aware that Britain's first duty is to its own people regardless of past crimes, but I feel that a little inconvenience for someone who has a house but could do with a more appropriate one might be in order for the family that has no home.

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2015, 05:27:34 PM »
So imagine this.

You have a wife, children, maybe a dog or a cat. At some point it all goes wrong. You lose your job, your wife leaves you, you have to pay allemony and dog gets hit by a car and needs surgery.

You need to sell the house and need a smaller, cheaper place. Every day you spend in your big house will cost  you a lot of money.

Finally you get that nice, small and affordable house offered, only to be told the next day that it's going to be given to a newly wed couple from Syria or Iraq, simply because they need it more than you do.



You'd sit down and go.. Oh well... that's fair. It's not their fault they had to flee?

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2015, 05:31:48 PM »
So imagine this.

You have a wife, children, maybe a dog or a cat. At some point it all goes wrong. You lose your job, your wife leaves you, you have to pay allemony and dog gets hit by a car and needs surgery.

You need to sell the house and need a smaller, cheaper place. Every day you spend in your big house will cost  you a lot of money.

Finally you get that nice, small and affordable house offered, only to be told the next day that it's going to be given to a newly wed couple from Syria or Iraq, simply because they need it more than you do.



You'd sit down and go.. Oh well... that's fair. It's not their fault they had to flee?

  Probably not, but then I would be under extreme emotional duress, and therefor would not be thinking too clearly. We generally don't let the victim choose the punishment for the accused for similar reasons.

  Plus I'm pretty sure once you get the house, you actually get the house. You wouldn't actually know you had been passed up in favour of someone else. And if you did, that's a flaw in the system and has nothing to do with immigration.

  So, got an argument other than an attempt to be emotionally manipulative?

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2015, 05:34:38 PM »
  So, got an argument other than an attempt to be emotionally manipulative?

No.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2015, 05:36:24 PM »
  Fair enough. I personally tend to be weary of stances that can only be supported by such measures.

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2015, 05:37:46 PM »
OK.

Offline eBadger

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2015, 05:39:34 PM »
I'm sure my friend would love to benefit a little less from the 'Western wealth' if that means she can actually get a house she can live in.

I feel the expectation to get a house from the government defies that logic. 

As I said, I'm all for helping and sheltering them. Just not at the cost of the local population.

That version of help and shelter seems to define not helping them at all. 

It's fucked up because you are advocating continuing the cycle of violence.

I, too, am completely confused as to how 'integrating refugees instead of letting them die of starvation and exposure' continues the cycle of violence. 

Finally you get that nice, small and affordable house offered, only to be told the next day that it's going to be given to a newly wed couple from Syria or Iraq, simply because they need it more than you do.

So, I would have to keep living in a big house I'm not paying for? 

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2015, 05:44:15 PM »
I feel the expectation to get a house from the government defies that logic.

  Well done, I was looking for the right words to say that, I just could quite get them.

So, I would have to keep living in a big house I'm not paying for?

  More likely you've been evicted for not paying rent and are needing to stay with either family or friends or something. Which as I said sucks, but is an option available to you and probably not the refugees.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 05:50:20 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline Vekseid

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2015, 07:52:28 PM »
  How is accepting refugees advocating a continued cycle of violence? How is accepting refugees violent? I wasn't even advocating anything in the statement you quoted, just laying out how difficult the situation was due to the West's involvement in the Middle East, making it a little hard to say "your country, your problem" when the problem was caused by Western meddling.

I call you out for this and you run straight back to it.

Do you know why 'the West' (including Russia, here) bitchslapped the Ottoman Empire?

Of course 'the West' is far from innocent. Guess what? No modern nation is. The modern nation of Turkey rests atop a mountain of a solid fraction of a billion skulls. Even though they're genetically not even Turk for the most part. Or Arab. Not even by male descent.

The issue isn't directly with the refugees. The problem is threefold.

1) A lot of people - almost exclusively young, frustrated men - are trying to illegally piggyback on the refugee system, straining it further and running up crime rates, particularly a certain very emotionally charged one.

2) On top of this, the housing situation in London specifically is ridiculous. No relief is being provided to the actual citizens of the country who make up these nations. Many homes stand empty in Britain. It is fully possible for them to take care of both, but they don't.

3) Rather than focusing on the actual issues at hand, you, and people like you, are blaming people who themselves have committed no wrong, and saying they should just accept it.

Do you have the slightest inkling of just how toxic this is? You are creating class distinctions between nations. Do not create class distinctions between nations. It is a bad idea and does not end well. If you cannot absorb them fully, without stressing your own population, you cannot afford to host them.

Quote
And, kinda. Sure the average British citizen has nothing to do with colonialism, but they also have very little to do with Britain's economic standing, and yet they reap the benefits of that freely.

No, they put in their life's labor and moral ethic into creating their society. They have very much to do with Britain's economic standing. They are emotionally, financially, and most importantly, politically invested in their nation. They vote.

Quote
The West, mainly the USA, but other powers like Britain and France are not blameless, has a long history of meddling in Africa and the Middle East.

And you ignore just why that meddling came about. Yes, most individuals in the Middle East and North Africa had nothing to do with what their leaders did.  The citizens of what was once the Ottoman Empire an the various pirate states paid for it.

Quote
I believe that if you are lucky enough to be born into a Western nation and inherit all the social, financial and political benefits, you should also inherit some of burden of dealing with the continued fallout from exploitation and interference your country rendered onto others, especially when it was these misdealing that contributed to the wealth the country enjoys today. We armed the Taliban and made it what it is today, so we cannot now flat out refuse to house refugees displaced by them.

The only people who clearly benefited from Britain's rule over the world were the ultra-rich. For the rest of British society, it looks more like a wash. The same is true of pretty much all exploitation of other nations, with perhaps the singular exception of the US/Canadian expansion into what was relatively underpopulated territory. The vast majority of the wealth in the 'West' is the mere fact that wealth does not need all that much protection. That is very much a cultural thing, and not one dependent upon exploitation.

Passing this sort of blame onto the citizenry, making them pay for something they did not profit from, do not see themselves as profiting from, all the while the upper crust eats off of golden plates, is, well, rich.

And is only going to continue the cycle of violence once they start electing people who agree with them.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2015, 08:12:56 PM »
I call you out for this and you run straight back to it.

Do you know why 'the West' (including Russia, here) bitchslapped the Ottoman Empire?

Of course 'the West' is far from innocent. Guess what? No modern nation is. The modern nation of Turkey rests atop a mountain of a solid fraction of a billion skulls. Even though they're genetically not even Turk for the most part. Or Arab. Not even by male descent.

  So no nation should attempt to atone for its past crimes/misdeeds because all nations are guilty of something at some time? I'm not saying the British never did anything good, a lot of Indians are proud of the legal system the British gave them, as well as other administrative aspects that remain to day, but the fact remains there was a darker side to colonialism that to this day effects the people who live in those regions.

1) A lot of people - almost exclusively young, frustrated men - are trying to illegally piggyback on the refugee system, straining it further and running up crime rates, particularly a certain very emotionally charged one.

  Got a source for that? I want to understand just exactly what "a lot" and "almost exclusively" actually means.

2) On top of this, the housing situation in London specifically is ridiculous. No relief is being provided to the actual citizens of the country who make up these nations. Many homes stand empty in Britain. It is fully possible for them to take care of both, but they don't.

  No relief? That seems hyperbolic. Council estates and social housing are a thing, even if the Welfare state was/is being reformed to fit with budget cuts.

3) Rather than focusing on the actual issues at hand, you, and people like you, are blaming people who themselves have committed no wrong, and saying they should just accept it.

  Why is these mutually exclusive? Why can't I believe that we should solve the problems that drove the refugees out, but also at least try and house them whilst we do, because it could take a while to sort the region out?

Do you have the slightest inkling of just how toxic this is? You are creating class distinctions between nations. Do not create class distinctions between nations. It is a bad idea and does not end well. If you cannot absorb them fully, without stressing your own population, you cannot afford to host them.

  So accepting refugees is toxic, but leaving them unable to provide a safe home for themselves or their children isn't? Also if you are saying Britain doesn't need to house non-British people, are you also creating class distinctions between nations?

No, they put in their life's labor and moral ethic into creating their society. They have very much to do with Britain's economic standing. They are emotionally, financially, and most importantly, politically invested in their nation. They vote.

  Yes they keep the economy running, but they didn't create it in the first place. Also the last election had a 66.1% turnout rate, so just under two thirds.

And you ignore just why that meddling came about

  Why we fucked up a country is slightly less important than the fact we fucked it up. Good intentions are always nice, but if you ruin someones life you should probably do something about that, even if it was an accident.

The only people who clearly benefited from Britain's rule over the world were the ultra-rich.

  So social housing, free healthcare, education, a grant and loan to go to university and the knowledge that I can get a job seeker's allowance isn't benefiting?

The vast majority of the wealth in the 'West' is the mere fact that wealth does not need all that much protection. That is very much a cultural thing, and not one dependent upon exploitation.

  So colonialism contributed nothing to modern Britain's wealth?

Offline Vekseid

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #47 on: September 02, 2015, 09:48:40 PM »
  So no nation should attempt to atone for its past crimes/misdeeds because all nations are guilty of something at some time? I'm not saying the British never did anything good, a lot of Indians are proud of the legal system the British gave them, as well as other administrative aspects that remain to day, but the fact remains there was a darker side to colonialism that to this day effects the people who live in those regions.

Colonialism did not spring up unprovoked overnight. British Colonial rule in India was very much a 'by the consent of the governed' affair.

Quote
  Got a source for that? I want to understand just exactly what "a lot" and "almost exclusively" actually means.

Wikipedia has a pretty solid collection of non-right wing nutjob sources.

Which itself is part of the problem. It's not like I can source Breitbart, the Daily Mail, or other wingnuts, but at the same time, if these are the only places people can turn for this sort of information, then these become the sort of sources of information that people will turn to. It is not healthy.

An in the Daily Mail's case, they are openly fascist. It's not remotely hyperbole to say fascism is on the rise as they become more trusted.

Quote
  No relief? That seems hyperbolic. Council estates and social housing are a thing, even if the Welfare state was/is being reformed to fit with budget cuts.

'being reformed to fit with budget cuts'. Cute.

Quote
  Why is these mutually exclusive? Why can't I believe that we should solve the problems that drove the refugees out, but also at least try and house them whilst we do, because it could take a while to sort the region out?

You can believe whatever you like.

The results of the policies you advocate are not dependent on what you believe.

There is an easy answer, of course. Tax the rich appropriately enough to fund it all. But that isn't going to happen.

Quote
  So accepting refugees is toxic, but leaving them unable to provide a safe home for themselves or their children isn't? Also if you are saying Britain doesn't need to house non-British people, are you also creating class distinctions between nations?

Giving people of one nation x while denying x to people of your own nation is toxic, yes.

People are not okay with this. Telling them they should be okay with this does not convince them that they should be okay with this, it in fact makes them feel antagonized and even less okay with this.

Quote
  Yes they keep the economy running, but they didn't create it in the first place. Also the last election had a 66.1% turnout rate, so just under two thirds.

I'm not sure what the point of this statement is.

Quote
  Why we fucked up a country is slightly less important than the fact we fucked it up. Good intentions are always nice, but if you ruin someones life you should probably do something about that, even if it was an accident.

To be perfectly frank, a part of me doesn't think this is an accident at all. It really does feel like there are figures in the world whom are attempting to drum up conflict between Muslims and, well, everyone else.

Quote
  So social housing, free healthcare, education, a grant and loan to go to university and the knowledge that I can get a job seeker's allowance isn't benefiting?

This entire argument was from Dashenka pointing out that a friend of hers was being denied some of this.

Quote
  So colonialism contributed nothing to modern Britain's wealth?

To the average modern British person? No.

To old and 'new' money? Certainly. But they aren't paying for this and you're not asking them to.

Offline eBadger

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2015, 01:35:18 PM »
The vast majority of the wealth in the 'West' is the mere fact that wealth does not need all that much protection. That is very much a cultural thing, and not one dependent upon exploitation.

Are you claiming that political destabilization has nothing to do with the legacy of colonialism, limited markets, export of wealth and centuries of efforts to remove power from local leadership and exacerbate regional and ethnic conflicts to facilitate foreign control?

British Colonial rule in India was very much a 'by the consent of the governed' affair.

That's...an interesting reading, sure.  But we're talking about the middle east, which - when Britain and France specifically had the opportunity to grant self rule, were expected by the locals who had fought for them to do so, and were being heavily influenced by others to do so, chose instead to partition the region up as spoils of war. 

Do you have the slightest inkling of just how toxic this is? You are creating class distinctions between nations. Do not create class distinctions between nations. It is a bad idea and does not end well. If you cannot absorb them fully, without stressing your own population, you cannot afford to host them.

I'm at a complete loss how that last sentence doesn't define a class distinction.  There's a "cute" frosting of wistful self-excuse, but this is a pure rationalization of 'they aren't us, so we don't need to do anything for them'. 

They are emotionally, financially, and most importantly, politically invested in their nation. They vote.

I am again unsure how the British right to vote makes it okay to let children from less free countries starve. 

Complaints of fascism aside, what do you think should be done to deal with the refugee situation?

Online DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2015, 01:51:53 PM »
Complaints of fascism aside, what do you think should be done to deal with the refugee situation?


Stop them from coming into Europe.


Tell them Europe can't handle it anymore and threaten to arrest them and sent them back.