You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 08, 2016, 02:24:43 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)  (Read 5200 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #175 on: September 14, 2015, 08:23:05 AM »
Yes it was a response to the countries finally taking action, not your post :)

Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #176 on: September 14, 2015, 08:27:42 AM »
Yes it was a response to the countries finally taking action, not your post :)

Apologies for my egocentrism there. :)

Offline DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #177 on: September 14, 2015, 08:28:14 AM »
No worries :)

Offline gaggedLouise

  • Quim Queen | Collaborative juicy writer
  • Champion
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2011
  • Location: Scandinavia
  • Gender: Female
  • Bound, gagged and unarmed but still dangerous.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #178 on: September 14, 2015, 08:30:56 AM »
*bows out of the thread for now*

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #179 on: September 16, 2015, 11:38:09 AM »
I saw this on a Chipotle cup, of all things  - it's apparently also making the rounds on Tumblr, but it made me think (as it is supposed to). We're debating this issue on an Internet message board, which automatically puts us at a certain level of separation and detachment from the refugees we're discussing. It's hard enough to put yourself in someone else's shoes when those shoes aren't worn through with holes or crusted with dirt or even stained with dried blood; we can look at all the factors and issues and complications rationally from an outside perspective.


Quote from: Neil Gaiman
I am thinking about the fragility of civilization. Look around you, at the building you are in, the road you travel on. What you see was made by people who agreed that they would get up in the morning and go to work and nobody would shoot at them or fire mortars at them; there would not be checkpoints at which they could be taken out and never seen again; that there would be food in the shops, and water in the taps, and shoes to buy and to wear. People who believed that the place you go to sleep tonight will be here tomorrow.

I have started to think of humanity as family.

There are now fifty million refugees in the world today, more than at any time since the end of the Second World War. And at some point, for each one of those people, the world shifted. Their world, solid and predictable, erupted or dissolved into chaos or danger or pain. They realized that they had to run.

You have two minutes to pack. You can only take what you can carry easily. You are going to have to walk a long way. You hope that somewhere, someone is going to take you in. I have started to think of humanity as family: a family that quarrels, but which must, when things get hard, put aside old arguments and divisions, and care for each other. Sometimes someone needs somebody to take them in, and that’s the function of family. It’s time to care.

You have two minutes to run. What will you take with you?

Offline Euron Greyjoy

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #180 on: September 26, 2015, 02:06:22 PM »
What gets me is that European birth rates are so low compared to the migrants, that Europe will be no longer European. Not to mention we don't even know who these migrants are. For all we know they could be members of ISIS or other extremists. Though perhaps more repulsive is the fact it only encourages more Rotherhams to happen, as no one wants to be called a racist, xenophobe, or islamophobe. Even if they wanted to press charges on a criminal it would be hard, with such a large influx to hunt down the perpetrator(s).

Offline Garuss Vakarian

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #181 on: October 02, 2015, 01:22:08 AM »
Im all for helping the migrants, as long as we properly vet them, to ensure that they are actually people fleeing persecution and not A; Isis sleeper's, as most footage show a vast majority of the migrants are young men in their 20's and 30's. Men of fighting age. I mean, look at them, almost all those guys are healthy, fit, and well fed. and B; 20/30 year old men pretending to be migrants for government aid. I am not trying to make assertions here. But the news is not properly covering this event, as they only show the migrants in a sympathetic light, and refuse to show them stealing, attacking, denying charitable aid, rioting, and chanting "Allahu Akbar FUCK YOU!"

Heres radicals throwing away free food and water given to them out of charity:
 

Riot in Lesbos:


Chanting Alahu Ahkbar and Fuck You:


Here in this video, a man who quite frankly is a dick tore pages out of the kiran and threw them into the toilet. What resulted was 20 migrants chasing him, breaking down his door, and assaulting him. As shameful as the man was, a lynch mob is not an appropriate response to religious intolerance.


This video is one of the more crucial to show as it has a lot of clips and such to reveal. I will copy and paste the posters description, as he explains what is in the footage.


Quote
"Take a look at all images on TV! Most of refugees are men!!! Young men!!! Which normally should defend their country, not to runway!!! Look at them! How aggressive they are! They come here in Europe to fight!? Do you want these people as neighbors?


Hungarian Police Battle with Muslim Protesters in Migrant Camp Debrecen City

Hungarian police have fired tear gas to subdue hundreds of people fighting each other and throwing rocks in an overcrowded camp for migrants in the eastern city of Debrecen, authorities have said.

While African Muslims leaks into Europe through Italy, Balkan Muslims leak in through Hungary. And with it comes Afghanistan-style Islamic riots. Meanwhile, in lack of EU’s willingness to effectively defend its borders, Hungary has decided to build a 200 km long, 4 meter high fence on the border to Serbia…

…A conflict of a religious nature between two refugees (a turkish and an afgan) at the Debrecen camp was allegedly behind the riots that happened on a nearby road on Monday afternoon. About 100 migrants staying at the refugee camp in Debrecen, in eastern Hungary, started throwing stones at cars passing by on road 471 and beating the vehicles with sticks, according to eye-witnesses.

Later, police said one officer took a hit from a stone and was slightly injured. Police appeared in raid gear and managed to drive the refugees back into the camp, behind a fence where they remained in a line, facing police and shouting, the correspondent said. The conflict turned violent after 2.30 pm when two refugees engaged in a row over religious (islam) matters, the local county police said.

The argument turned heated and “hundreds of others” joined in, including a man who allegedly “stamped his feet on the Koran”, police said, citing eyewitnesses. Another witness said one refugee took the other’s Koran, which contained 200 euros hidden among the pages. Police spokesperson Erika Demeter said the refugees blocked the nearby highway, lit rubbish bins and threw stones at cars passing by."

Now I aint saying dont help. But it is clear that a lot of Migrants are not as they appear. So as such we should be careful, methodical, and deliberate in who we let in. Those who need help, and not the 20 something year olds that are well fed and obviously in healthy good shape with six packs. Isis declared they were sending men to pretend to be migrants so they can be let in massive numbers into the us and europe, does anyone really think that was an idle threat? And by the number of healthy, angry, and strong young men among those migrants. Dam straight they are using this humanitarian crisis to their advantage. We should be careful, less we pipe in a few thousand battle ready radical's. Again, not saying we dont help. Im just saying we should administer realistic caution.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 01:33:19 AM by Garuss Vakarian »

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #182 on: October 02, 2015, 01:58:25 AM »
Quote from: Garuss Vakarian
Im all for helping the migrants, as long as we properly vet them, to ensure that they are actually people fleeing persecution and not A; Isis sleeper's, as most footage show a vast majority of the migrants are young men in their 20's and 30's. Men of fighting age. I mean, look at them, almost all those guys are healthy, fit, and well fed.
      So are a lot of immigrants from Mexico to the US if I'm not mistaken.  So what.  Does that make them all terrorists?  I'd also like to see sources besides "footage" -- footage from whom?  The only footage you seem to be choosing here is whatever shows upset people fighting.  Are we to believe that's a representative sample of all the immigrants?   

Quote
and B; 20/30 year old men pretending to be migrants for government aid.
     Again, sources.  Or are you denying there's a huge civil war over there someplace?  That couldn't possibly have anything to do with the "vast majority" either now could it?

Quote
I am not trying to make assertions here. But the news is not properly covering this event, as they only show the migrants in a sympathetic light, and refuse to show them stealing, attacking, denying charitable aid, rioting, and chanting "Allahu Akbar FUCK YOU!"
      Are you saying that anyone from the Near East who shouts "Allah Akbar" must obviously be some fundamentalist terrorist?  You might better research that.  I believe the term is used pretty generically against any sort of perceived injustice.

Quote
Now I aint saying dont help. But it is clear that a lot of Migrants are not as they appear. So as such we should be careful, methodical, and deliberate in who we let in. Those who need help, and not the 20 something year olds that are well fed and obviously in healthy good shape with six packs.
    Cause 20-ish year olds in good shape don't get thrown in Damascus prisons and killed with indiscriminate gassing and barrel bombs.  They only come to bomb you and pretend to be fleeing.  Is that the idea?

Quote
Isis declared they were sending men to pretend to be migrants so they can be let in massive numbers into the us and europe, does anyone really think that was an idle threat? And by the number of healthy, angry, and strong young men among those migrants. Dam straight they are using this humanitarian crisis to their advantage.
      That's damn with an n, if you care, as opposed to the Mosul Dam.  :P  Seriously, though...

      Again, there are lots of young men in the Near/Middle East period.  I seem to recall it's the demographics of the place.  There are lots opposing or fleeing the Syrian government, the Egyptian government, and perhaps more as well.  I'm not sure how easy it is to thoroughly "vet" all of them; this isn't people sitting around the US with their whole histories on the web for the NSA to leisurely peruse in no hurry at all.  At the same time, I can imagine a few basic questions being asked. 

     What I can't imagine is a Donald Trump style, hundreds of thousands should generally be rejected or all the young men must be suspect sort of logic.  There are consequences, both humanitarian and political, to turning back whole swathes.  It's probably not the best economic move for Europe to go wholesale like that, it's not entirely clear that one can seal all the points of entry very effectively, it may lead to more deaths in the Med or crime and protests in overcapacity camps almost under the noses of regimes many were trying to escape, and it may also make the messy assumptions that many are violently anti-Western slightly more of a reality more as a result

       As far as the videos from Hungary and the like, you go on about media coverage not being even...  You don't cover much about what the politics and policing are like in Hungary for immigrants, though.  Doesn't look like you're interested in finding very much balance yourself.  There might be a few reasons they don't want to be seen accepting help, or be held up in much of any association whatsoever in Hungary.  I'd feel quite a bit of contempt and unease in such situations too.

      The Hungarian PM is pretty much known as a far right, anti-immigrant figure.  Wonder what sort of policing he generally employs.  In any case, his police have been busy trying to essentially detain and deport immigrants.  They probably want to get the heck out of there as fast as possible, except every interaction could be taken as an EU excuse to declare them 'Hungarian responsibility' where it's known that Hungary wants to send them back.

Quote
[Sept. 3]
In Budapest, there has been a two day stand-off between police and thousands of refugees, with authorities refusing to let unregistered immigrants leave the country, and immigrants determined to reach Germany, where authorities have accepted tens of thousands of asylum applications...

Detractors dub Orban a dictator – Viktator - a cynical opportunist who has built a political career on whipping up xenophobia while slowly stifling dissent. US Senator and former presidential candidate John McCain branded Orban a "neo-fascist dictator" in 2014, after Hungary sought closer ties with Vladimir Putin's authoritarian Russia...

Orban's politics took a new direction, and in 2007 was the given the Economist's "politics of the gutter award", for his "cynical populism and mystifyingly authoritarian socialist-style policies".

      McCain and The Economist think he's dirty and iron-fisted.  These are not exactly the most liberal and humanitarian of all possible critics talking.

      I've been over it before in this thread, but the reception also isn't that grand politically, nor are the chances of staying in Europe, for immigrants who find themselves trapped spending very much time in Greece these days.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 01:59:55 AM by kylie »

Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #183 on: October 02, 2015, 02:34:56 AM »
most footage show a vast majority of the migrants are young men in their 20's and 30's.

Actually 51% of refugees are children, for adults males and females are evenly balanced. Source: UNHCR Global Trends.

Offline Garuss Vakarian

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #184 on: October 02, 2015, 03:01:51 AM »
Lol, ok that is tottaly unfair and you know it. (Edit:Not to seem mad, it just feels like an unfair thing to say.) I am not calling them all terrorists. I am saying that Isis doesn't send idle threats, and such a move would make complete and tactical sense on their part. Therefor we should have a air of CAUTION. I never said fuck the migrants. I said we should have, at the very least, some caution. Even if it is something as small as a identification process. Especially since it is obvious quite a bit are using the crisis to obtain free government aid. (Joke ahead) But know what, by all means. Let's accept literally THOUSANDS of people we do not know and have not checked out into our country. Because that makes sense. No seriously, let's open that door wiiiide open, without any caution or security what so ever. After all, a regime that video tapes it's self committing diabolical murder', and goes on social media to tell any one they can indoctrinate to attack their fellow Americans, are surely bluffing when they say they will use this crisis to send thousands to the US and European countries. It's not like they use the kindness and political correctness of the United Nations to their advantage time and time again right? Joking aside, am I really such a bad person for saying we should be careful? Or are we so progressive, so politically correct, so afraid of being racist that we will risk national security because we dont want to look bad? Im not saying we be dicks or inhumane, but identity searches would suffice substantially. All I want is for us to actually LOOK at who we are bringing in. And not greet with open arms those, whom surely have many among them that wish to stab our backs as we hug it out all humanely. (Edit:That was another joke.) Isis is a villain, and like any of histories villains. They have, as any other radical Muslim regime, and will prey upon the kindness of their enemy. Edit: So basically I WANT to help. I just want to be sure I am helping those that really need it.

Quote
Again, sources.  Or are you denying there's a huge civil war over there someplace?  That couldn't possibly have anything to do with the "vast majority" either now could it?

See, I dont blame you for asserting this. The news is not covering the whole truth to you. They are leaving out the fact that many of these men have been found to not even be from Siria. In fact, quite a number of ID's from different countries have been found scattered and discarded along the roads. Many of these young men are not escaping the persecution, they are trying to take advantage of the government aid they would receive in Europe and here in the states. I am not pretending there is not a crisis, I KNOW there is. Think I am not paying attention? There is, and they are fleeing. But not all are, in fact it is to be assumed by logic a LOT are not as they say they are. So, as I said.  Bring them in, but have CAUTION. I dont want my tax payers money to go to some one who is not escaping persecution, and does NOT need the aid. I do recognize the civil war. As well as the terrorist actions and extreme religious intolerance of radical Muslims. Honestly, am I such a bad guy for saying we should Vet and be careful who we pull in? Especially as much that we are not being shown, suggests we should be careful. A lot of these people are RIOTING. Causing problems, stealing, and other such things. I understand they are in need. But to just bring them in willy nilly will bring the same chaos they are showing in Greece, Hungary, etc over here.

Quote
Are you saying that anyone from the Near East who shouts "Allah Akbar" must obviously be some fundamentalist terrorist?  You might better research that.  I believe the term is used pretty generically against any sort of perceived injustice.

Lol, are you asserting I am racist? It is actually the FUCK YOU part of their chant I refer to as being dumb. They are saying fuck you to people helping them.  How ridiculous is that? I can see where you got that idea. But hey, heres an actual lesson I know I can give you. Hanlons Razor: Do not attribute to malice as which can be easily attributed to Stupidity/ignorance. ^^ Helps a lot in conversation. And helps to keep myself from having knee jerk reactions. It helps a lot to remember that some times a person may not mean what you thought they said, or that they may not have worded things right, or that they genuinely didnt know. It not only better helps your side of the argument but also helps to keep things civil. And if things turn un civil, it would allow the observers to aid you. As they can see your clearly right/civil.

Quote
Cause 20-ish year olds in good shape don't get thrown in Damascus prisons and killed with indiscriminate gassing and barrel bombs.  They only come to bomb you and pretend to be fleeing.  Is that the idea?

Tell me what mass migration of persecution in history have you seen where roughly 80 percent Edit:meant most of the men, not that 80 percent are male. I shouldnt bring in nub=mbers, im bad with them. :P lol.

 Where most men are healthy young men that could very well be fighting to defend their own people. Tell me, what one have you seen in history where most were not malnourished and weak, with extreme lack of water and food due to the migration and persecution? As I am certain what the answer is, you can imagine why it is perplexing for most to be healthy young men, that are NOT malnourished, and are aggressively inciting violence. (Which the news, conveniently, wont show you here in the states.) Now, this is not a fact and merely a assertion based on logic. So let's agree to disagree. The fact of the matter is we can not know. I can be right, I can be wrong. But it is the uncertainty that matters. And is why we should have a secure line to the US, not a wide open door.

Edit: Also making tweets. Lol, I have seen on a few articles and a youtube video that there are even some of these fake refugees making selfies and tweets about it.

Caehlim: Sorry if you thought I said that most are males and few are children and women. What I meant was, a majority of the males are young and healthy. Of which can easily be fighting. And as of which I must reference once again, the fact that there are many id's and such being left behind. As sickening as the thought may be, there is quite a large number that seem to, out of logical assumption, be following the migrants in order to obtain government aid. IE; money and free housing. If you wish I can link you to the video, which made me aware of much that which our own News networks are NOT showing us. Since as I said, much of what is happening is not being shown. Because our progressive culture wants to paint them all in a sympathetic light. And as sympathy should be given, we should not be blinded purposefully to the fact that there is lot's of violence in the wake of these migrants. As well as many literally spitting in the face of foreign kindness.

Edit: Here I found a news article on it myself. People are actually pretending, and that is my main concern any way. Isis can and would be dealt with if they make it over here. But I dont want at all to help some low life preying on the pain of others to get literally an easy way into america. With free housing and such on top of it. http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/refugee-crisis-in-europe-something-fishy-among-migrant-flood-as-discarded-id-papers-appear/story-fnh81p7g-1227515922792
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:38:50 AM by Garuss Vakarian »

Offline Garuss Vakarian

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #185 on: October 02, 2015, 03:14:21 AM »
Quote
That's damn with an n, if you care, as opposed to the Mosul Dam.  :P  Seriously, though...

Lol, sorry for posting twice but. Just noticed this, xD . Good one, it was pretty funny. To me at least.

Offline kylie

  • Bratty Princess of Twisty, Creeping Secrets. Frilly | Fussy | Framed | Dreamy | Glam | Risky | Sporty | Rapt | Tease | Ironic | Shadowed | Struggling | Whispery | Bespelled
  • Liege
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Apr 2005
  • Location: Somewhere in the future.
  • Darkly sweet femme for rich & insidious scenarios.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 1
Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #186 on: October 02, 2015, 07:17:50 AM »
Quote from: Garuss Vakarian
Lol, ok that is tottaly unfair and you know it. (Edit:Not to seem mad, it just feels like an unfair thing to say.) I am not calling them all terrorists.
      When you keep going on that way about "the vast majority" without qualifying much, it sounds pretty close to me.  What % did you mean to focus on with that term, then?

Quote
I am saying that Isis doesn't send idle threats, and such a move would make complete and tactical sense on their part. Therefor we should have a air of CAUTION.
     Perhaps, but that can be played various ways.  There is Donald Trump: We should be cautious, so send them all back -- which was curiously said just the other day and here you are with this.  Perhaps just coincidence, but the language is rather similar.  Made me wonder a little.

      There could be the version:  We should be cautious, and I don't trust them much generally as a people or a broader demographic collection (something like, oh "the vast majority" or just 'many of the many people coming in from the Middle East lately'), say partly because you may (and you did say you do) think some/however many of them are not really in need but merely taking advantage somehow unfairly.  Now that's actually something that's probably been said many times about immigrants both legal and illegal in the US, and also just about anyone with any sort of difference to be seen really throughout history in many different situations....

       To which I could say, big deal:  It was often wrong then too.  On the security side, it was at least partly in overlap with the kind of domestic rhetoric that got so many Japanese-Americans locked up during World War Two -- the notion that if hardliners from Japan said all good Japanese would follow the Emperor, then of course recent immigrants from Japan (of whom there were already plenty inside the US) would all necessarily be made of that same idea and part of the project, whether by active conspiracy or merely by calls of culture and conscience upon them.  On the economic side, people seem to have gotten on and either 1) rather integrated, with considerable abuse and hard labor in the meantime, the minorities that were once considered dirty and cheats (Irish, Italians) or 2) kept them serving a low rung of the economic ladder under all sorts of pretenses for the most part (Blacks) -- but only a certain fringe now says we should have denied or expelled any of those wholesale.   

      Anyway, part of what worries me is that one can simply say vaguely, we should be cautious -- but often when that's said with sweeping terms like "the vast majority" and the like, the underlying message is closer to wink, nudge, let's make it damn near impossible in practice for most of these men to get in.

Quote
I never said fuck the migrants. I said we should have, at the very least, some caution. Even if it is something as small as a identification process.

      Oh, maybe I missed it in all the threat rhetoric...  But I don't actually recall much discussion of any identification process in what you had before?  What I do recall is repeated sweeping generalizations and suppositions about so many able-bodied men.

Quote
Especially since it is obvious quite a bit are using the crisis to obtain free government aid. (Joke ahead)
     It feels a little weird to me that one moment you claim to be worried about being bombed, and the next it's all about the budget or economy?  Just saying.  Something's strange.  Or are you just fishing for as many disparate pins as you think might somehow include a good one, or somehow add up to a vague 'lot'?  But these are pretty different types of concerns to be juggling this way.  Clear and present danger of mass casualties, or monetary cost assessment.  Which are you really doing.

Quote
But know what, by all means. Let's accept literally THOUSANDS of people we do not know and have not checked out into our country. Because that makes sense.
      And you apparently didn't notice that I said, I would expect a few reasonable background questions might be asked.  I'm just a little worried with the way the rest went on at length, that you might perhaps be much happier if the questionnaire kept people locked away for a pretty long time rather than allowed in at all.  How many of these young people coming out of a civil war that's lasted for years do you think we'll have super clear information on that would satisfy you, really?  Again, I am not saying do no checks...  I'm just doubting whether you really want many people to even have a realistic, timely chance to pass at all -- that's given the way you phrase the rest of your concerns.

Quote
After all, a regime that video tapes it's self committing diabolical murder', and goes on social media to tell any one they can indoctrinate to attack their fellow Americans, are surely bluffing when they say they will use this crisis to send thousands to the US and European countries. It's not like they use the kindness and political correctness of the United Nations to their advantage time and time again right? Joking aside, am I really such a bad person for saying we should be careful? Or are we so progressive, so politically correct, so afraid of being racist that we will risk national security because we dont want to look bad?
      (And also re: a bunch of stuff that follows that.)  See above, but I wonder if you wouldn't be uneasy with that fellow who once said "Those who would prefer security over liberty deserve neither."  At some point, you take some risks having a country of immigrants too.  Though it might make me feel better if it wasn't so simple for virtually any adult to pick up almost military-grade weapons without a background check in the US...  Oh, but you might be worried there will be ten thousand box cutter incidents? 

      Actually, if you look up Kuwait during the Iraqi occupation, women were also quite involved in arms smuggling if not outright fighting.  Women have been effective suicide bombers in Iraq, and I think Afghanistan (it's been a while since I've heard a lot from there but I seem to recall) and Israeli-occupied areas/Jerusalem (not sure which side of the border exactly).  So if you take your logic that all the men of age etc. are such heightened threats for scrutiny simply because they could perhaps fight, then maybe you should just be consistent and say everyone will have to be held up extra long searching for years of information on people whose government is trying to kill many of them and whose cities have been destroyed over the last few years.  Again I wonder, how far is this going to go. 

      And when you start adding that 'just btw' you're also (or is it perhaps more? who knows) concerned that you think too many people might have it too easy after entering the country wherever you're focusing?  Then I begin to suspect you could be more interested in finding any rationale available to keep as many out as possible -- because it sounds like you might well have had that concern anyway, without need for any civil war or refugee crisis to be seriously considered otherwise.     

Quote
See, I dont blame you for asserting this. The news is not covering the whole truth to you. They are leaving out the fact that many of these men have been found to not even be from Siria.
      I'm sorry if you are dyslexic or something, but I'd honestly be more convinced you were reading much seriously documented stuff about this, if you could spell Syria.  Citing someone might also help.  But I believe we have been over this question before in this thread, and I'm not very convinced by the thrust of that argument.  Just one of the easy answers is, Syria is just one example among several places in turmoil that people are currently entering Europe from.  There are a lot of political refugees from several sources these days.  Not being from Syria, wouldn't make those that aren't any less imperiled (and then, we could still debate the numbers perhaps).  And there is also a long (and less than rosy) history of industrial states accepting a good many immigrants who were known to come for economic reasons, too. Portes discusses this well.

Quote from: Portes
The most common nationality by far of those currently arriving in Greece and Italy is Syrian. Other common nationalities are Eritrean, Afghan, Somali, and Iraqi. In most cases they are fleeing civil war, violence and oppression. Those who do make it to the UK are highly likely to be granted refugee status or humanitarian protection. Legally and morally, they are not illegal immigrants, still less “bogus asylum seekers”. But that’s not the whole story by any means: a considerable number are from countries in west Africa, including Nigeria and Ghana. Here the motivations for most are likely to be primarily economic.

But this is not a new story. My own great-grandparents left Russia and eastern Europe for the US around the beginning of the 20th century. Jews didn’t have an easy time in tsarist Russia and, certainly by contemporary standards, they were a persecuted, oppressed minority. Equally, it would be naive to think that they weren’t in large part motivated by the desire to build a better, more prosperous life in the US. The same is probably true for many of today’s migrants: both push and pull factors are at work.

Quote from: GV again
In fact, quite a number of ID's from different countries have been found scattered and discarded along the roads. Many of these young men are not escaping the persecution, they are trying to take advantage of the government aid they would receive in Europe and here in the states.
     How many is quite a few for you and what does it imply?  It does seem quite a step down from "the vast majority" when you seemed to be worried about terrorism.  Absolute or relative numbers?  Sources?  And I probably won't fuss with it if I feel it's already been said and I'm repeating stuff that's been beaten around here quite a lot.  But I can't even begin with that.

Quote
I am not pretending there is not a crisis, I KNOW there is. Think I am not paying attention? There is, and they are fleeing. But not all are, in fact it is to be assumed by logic a LOT are not as they say they are. So, as I said.  Bring them in, but have CAUTION. I dont want my tax payers money to go to some one who is not escaping persecution, and does NOT need the aid.
       How many do you think are which, or both?  You're playing shotgun with two different issues and it's hard to figure out what you think the reality is.  Is this an infiltrating army, a horde of freeloaders, a little of one and a lot of the other?  Or do you even care whether they cost more lives or money -- Is it all the same?  You seem very eager to shift between the two issues as if they're somehow interchangeable.  Or perhaps, they just don't have enough moving substance going on individually to be clear how it works.

Quote
Especially as much that we are not being shown, suggests we should be careful.
      Can I say again you haven't talked much about the context and background of the few videos you've actually chosen to show as counterexamples?   You haven't bothered to go into what's going on in those places locally, that might obviously feed that unrest.  If everything hinges on things "not being shown," then at some point I'm going to declare empty conspiracy theory and go away.  UFOs are not being shown either.  Maybe they're actually invading too.

Quote
A lot of these people are RIOTING. Causing problems, stealing, and other such things. I understand they are in need. But to just bring them in willy nilly will bring the same chaos they are showing in Greece, Hungary, etc over here.
     That thing about context.  Now if you propose that we do something a bit akin to what Greece and especially (to my understanding) Hungary have been doing, and treat refugees much the same as the US treats the current Black population?  Sure there will be riots.  We already get riots.  And there are very logical reasons why.

Quote
Lol, are you asserting I am racist?
      Would you care to provide a quotation?  As far as I'm concerned, you just pulled that out of nowhere. 

      But now that you do that?  It might suggest to me that maybe you're holding onto something, which makes you very, very paranoid about the notion that people have, or might sometime, suggest you're being racist...  Cause otherwise I'm not sure where the heck you got this from. 

      All I said (in what I believe is the vicinity you were talking about before this very bizarre question) is I don't think you understand much about the phrase "Allah Akhbar" also being in more general use.  I'm no expert but I would be highly surprised if only fundamentalists ever use it; I think it's thrown around like various groups in the US toss references to Jesus, except probably much more often --  whenever someone is really upset with the state of affairs, I would imagine.  And the term is not racial as Americans talk of race.  It is a religious term. 

       Islam does have a broadly invoked concept of social justice (with a bit of moral outrage, sure) that has broader applications than the sorts of social prescriptions favored by Al Qaeda and Isis and the Taliban -- although reading enough of some people like Vekseid off in another thread, might just lead one to think there's little point looking it up.  At most, you can play Samuel Huntington writing Clash of Civilizations and imagine it as some unitary ethnic term that should somehow drive one group against everyone else magically...  But calling that race?  Islam is not a race.  No.  And even if it were: Saying you don't know something is not the same as calling you racist or whatever.  But you sure seem awfully jumpy about it.
 
Quote
It is actually the FUCK YOU part of their chant I refer to as being dumb. They are saying fuck you to people helping them.  How ridiculous is that? I can see where you got that idea. But hey, heres an actual lesson I know I can give you. Hanlons Razor: Do not attribute to malice as which can be easily attributed to Stupidity/ignorance. ^^ Helps a lot in conversation. And helps to keep myself from having knee jerk reactions.
       Assuming that the only choices people have are malice or stupidity, sounds like a pretty knee jerk philosophy to me.  You've already made up your mind there could be 'no reason' you would ever believe for it, and now you're just looking for a culprit.  Look for people being motivated by something other than old cliches about hand that feeds you.  I don't have to accept anything from you if I think taking it is going to put me in a bad position for the next year or five, after I've just suffered for hundreds of miles for something different.  There are pressing modern ideas, like the one about the EU country that spends time caring for you, gets seen by the others as the one that gets to decide your fate -- and we already know what Hungary's most likely to decide. 

Quote
Tell me what mass migration of persecution in history have you seen where roughly 80 percent Edit:meant most of the men, not that 80 percent are male. I shouldnt bring in nub=mbers, im bad with them. :P lol.
       It would help if you would bring in sources so we could compare notes about wherever all this is coming from and who said what about which group, where when.  Looking at UNHCR, there's nothing like that breakdown among registered refugees in Mideast countries listed (although I don't know details about who typically registers and how all that is run).

Quote from: UNHCR table

Registered Syrian Refugees
4,052,723

This figure includes 2.1 million Syrians registered by UNHCR in Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon, 1.9 million Syrians registered by the Government of Turkey, as well as more than 26,700 Syrian refugees registered in North Africa.
Regional demographic breakdown below is based on available data from Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon
 Last Updated 01 Oct 2015

Source - UNHCR, Government of Turkey

Demography
Male (49.7%)   Age   (50.3%) Female
8.9%      0 - 4      8.4%
10.8%      5 - 11      10.2%
6.6%      12 - 17      6.2%
22.2%      18 - 59      23.8%
1.3%      60 +      1.7%

 

      So I might venture one alternative explanation:  Many of the Muslim countries are more conservative (even more than the Deep South, sigh) and ranging from merely gender segregated to pretty gender discriminatory in quite a few areas.  That doesn't mean they are all Isis, nor are all  -- nor anywhere vaguely near majorities -- simply composed of would-be terrorists. 

      Maybe they aren't so often comfortable sending women without "protectors" when they can only afford to pay smugglers for some.  Maybe they prefer to place female relatives in more culturally familiar settings until they get established overseas.  And come to think of it?  If your own logic about security and gender suspicion stands, then other regional states might well be more accepting of women than of men also, thus making it eminently practical to place the women there while the men take more physical risks (often having to travel illegally or deal with unknown middle parties, often separated from what relatives they do travel with) and go off to look for jobs and places to stay abroad! 

Quote from: GV
Where most men are healthy young men that could very well be fighting to defend their own people.
      Perhaps, if you believe it's their duty to be tortured and gassed.  This thing has been going on for years, the US has barely gotten involved despite talk of redlines and the documented use of chemical weapons, Isis has its own regional base more or less entrenched, and now Russia is even sending in planes to bomb everyone except the pro-Assad forces (how is that going to make life for the opposition/those just scrambling to get by in the cities Assad is already bombing?).  And to stay there at the very time when Europe is obviously trying to make it increasingly difficult for them to get in later.

Quote
Caehlim: Sorry if you thought I said that most are males and few are children and women. What I meant was, a majority of the males are young and healthy. Of which can easily be fighting.
     You just said above that 80% are men.  Or was this about a different group somewhere?  (Again, not sure who/what exactly you're looking at...)

Quote
Edit: Here I found a news article on it myself. People are actually pretending, and that is my main concern any way. Isis can and would be dealt with if they make it over here. But I dont want at all to help some low life preying on the pain of others to get literally an easy way into america. With free housing and such on top of it. http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/refugee-crisis-in-europe-something-fishy-among-migrant-flood-as-discarded-id-papers-appear/story-fnh81p7g-1227515922792
       Sounds like you were much more concerned about welfare programs, than about Isis all along.  I refer you back to others who have found that the majority are actually in trouble.  Or to parts of the conversation which have somewhat already been done about the economics rather than about terrorism so much.  Sure ask a few questions of arrivals, but I don't see good reason to act too much like the politics of Hungary or maybe, Pat Buchanan and more recently, Ben Carson or Donald Trump might suggest.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 07:24:08 AM by kylie »

Offline Garuss Vakarian

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #187 on: October 02, 2015, 05:44:33 PM »
Quote
When you keep going on that way about "the vast majority" without qualifying much, it sounds pretty close to me.  What % did you mean to focus on with that term, then?

Sorry this comment partially confuses me. Did you mean Quantifying? As in;  When you keep going on that way about "the vast majority" without Quantifying much, it sounds pretty close to me. I can try to find a source, and numbers, but it is difficult for me. As I am primarily brought aware of this through youtube. As I dont wish to link any one such as Sargon here, I will pm you to the videos that brought my arguments to my attention. Since I feel it would more accurately show what I am trying to say. If you agree with it or not.

 
Quote
Perhaps, but that can be played various ways.  There is Donald Trump: We should be cautious, so send them all back -- which was curiously said just the other day and here you are with this.  Perhaps just coincidence, but the language is rather similar.  Made me wonder a little.

Oh fuck trump. lol, :P Frankly I am insulted you even considered id be with his brand of rhetoric. I dont want to turn them away, I just mean to say we should do things properly, with proper documentation. As you have to some degree, agreed.

Quote
Oh, maybe I missed it in all the threat rhetoric...  But I don't actually recall much discussion of any identification process in what you had before?  What I do recall is repeated sweeping generalizations and suppositions about so many able-bodied men.

Well the first post was me making the point that the news is not covering the crisis entirely. They are using a Blik in what they show and how they show it. (A Blick is a social lens, put simply.)  Though the fact remains that there are MANY not with proper documents, lot's of id's and documentation for other countries left alongside the roads and on top of it people actually shamelessly making selfies. The fact remains that there are many that are not actual refugees. Which sucks, a lot. I dont know how any one can be so low as to use anothers pain for self gain but then again. Say hello to human nature I guess.... None the less it boils down to my number one lesson to bring to anyone.  Hanlons Razor: Do not attribute to Malice of which can easily be attributed to Stupidity/ignorance. Not saying your treating me like im evil, but wanted to reiterate it as a reminder that as our opinions are different we shouldn't let our opinions reflect our views of each other as people. The reason I point this out now, is due to a lot of whats in your post questions my morality, and that is debasing me. Of which, is unfair. I care, I just think we should take some form of caution.

Plus we should prepare a bit better, I think since we declared we will be helping we should be already right on getting housing ready. At the very least some buildings/complexes or even land zones for them to stay until we can find appropriate housing. America is already a very tightly packed place. No where near as much so as china, but still packed enough that we should already be making plans on where to keep them until further accommodations can be figured out. This was actually just an Epiphany so do please tell me what you think? Or if you have any of your own theories on how we will house them, be it temporary or otherwise.

Quote
It feels a little weird to me that one moment you claim to be worried about being bombed, and the next it's all about the budget or economy?  Just saying.  Something's strange.  Or are you just fishing for as many disparate pins as you think might somehow include a good one, or somehow add up to a vague 'lot'?  But these are pretty different types of concerns to be juggling this way.  Clear and present danger of mass casualties, or monetary cost assessment.  Which are you really doing.

What? Lol, I cant be concerned of both :P ? , I am not worried about being bombed. Isis doesnt really work that way. Your the one that jumped to bombs ye racist xD Jk Jk. Joking aside, your trying to assert I dont know anything when in reality I am pointing at the clear reality. Some are very much likely, Isis. That is a reality, and one reason we really should be careful. And others are very much likely to be taking advantage of the crisis, as has been proven, as quite a few, not a whole lot, have been caught trying to lie their way into other countries. It's sad, but true. Any way it is not an economy thing, it is a figure of speech when I brought up tax payers money. With the lying migrants, it is more a matter of morality. And how sickening it is to think people can be so selfish as to use this for a profit.

 
Quote
And you apparently didn't notice that I said, I would expect a few reasonable background questions might be asked.  I'm just a little worried with the way the rest went on at length, that you might perhaps be much happier if the questionnaire kept people locked away for a pretty long time rather than allowed in at all.  How many of these young people coming out of a civil war that's lasted for years do you think we'll have super clear information on that would satisfy you, really?  Again, I am not saying do no checks...  I'm just doubting whether you really want many people to even have a realistic, timely chance to pass at all -- that's given the way you phrase the rest of your concerns.

*Face palms* Oh dear, lol. Im so sorry you let this confuse you, I thought I made it clear I was speaking entirely in jest. I know you did it. My comment was no pass gainst you or aggression towards you, I was entirely trying to get a snicker out of you. I didnt mean to make you feel as though I ignored your points, couldn't be any further from the truth. This is actually good that we are talking in such a civil discourse because a proper debate is about listening to the other side's points with the understanding that they may teach you something, or that you may teach them something. It's all about learning and personal growth. I am glad your actually making a propper debate. So please dont feel I am ignoring you, I sincerely am listening to your side, with an open mind to be swayed the other way. As I am certain as well, you are doing the same.

Quote
I'm sorry if you are dyslexic or something, but I'd honestly be more convinced you were reading much seriously documented stuff about this, if you could spell Syria.

Please explain to me what relevance my spelling error has? It is obvious you knew what I meant. So why not just leave it at that and simply move on? I dont believe the way some one spell's a word has any relevance towards their point. Nor does their ignorance make any difference towards their opinion, if they couldn't ACTUALLY spell it. Just becouse someone does not have let's say a 4th grade education, does not mean their opinions are not valid. Nor does it mean what they have to say is beyond consideration. However I would understand if this comment, was a joke, as you did do so with my misspelling of damn as dam.  And yes actually, I am dyslexic. It is a real issue for me, I still make my B's, 2's, and 4's backwards when I write on paper but at least for the B's it makes my signature entirely unique as my last name is Burns. ^^

 
Quote
How many do you think are which, or both?  You're playing shotgun with two different issues and it's hard to figure out what you think the reality is.  Is this an infiltrating army, a horde of freeloaders, a little of one and a lot of the other?  Or do you even care whether they cost more lives or money -- Is it all the same?  You seem very eager to shift between the two issues as if they're somehow interchangeable.  Or perhaps, they just don't have enough moving substance going on individually to be clear how it works.

Never suggested they were interchangeable, as I am clearly down the middle, as both are quite possible. It is not a one or the other kind of thing. It could be one, none, or both. Therefor it doesnt make me ignorant to think that some could be isis as well as some could be lying. However if you feel differently please do explain to me why I am wrong. After all as I said before. Hanlons Razor. I could very well be ignorant on the matter, and not some Trumpian with an agenda. *Grits teeth and sheds a tear.* T_T You compared me to trump. lol. Jk Jk. None the less I do care, and to question if I do is further Debasing. I never questioned your moral standing, so why question mine? This is a logical discussion, not a moral one. I wont question your morality, please refrain from continuing to question, and debase my morality.

 
Quote
Can I say again you haven't talked much about the context and background of the few videos you've actually chosen to show as counterexamples?   You haven't bothered to go into what's going on in those places locally, that might obviously feed that unrest.  If everything hinges on things "not being shown," then at some point I'm going to declare empty conspiracy theory and go away.  UFOs are not being shown either.  Maybe they're actually invading too.

For one: I clearly provided context as to every video. Explaining what the Migrants were doin and as to why. (Say for denying charity, I dont know why they did that.) I implore you to look at my first post once more, as much of the videos have context written around them. You just must not have noticed due to the brief nature of the comments, and how I did little to make them obvious. For that I apologize. Now, none the less. Im certain that if our own news networks would cover these events you would see English subtitles, and I wouldn't have to be showing them. But as our news refuses to cover them, sadly we are both at a loss. And at an impasse here. But I assure you that the legitimacy of these videos are valid, I am not grabbing some random riot from somewhere. Not some random event 2 years ago. These are Syrian Migrants tossing aside charitable donations, saying fuck you to people, lynch mobbing a intolerant bigot , Rioting and so forth. I can also provide a few more, most of which is thievery but that would be pointless as you clearly and understandably question their legitimacy. The fact of the matter is, and question it if you wish, that there is a LOT of things our news is conveniently ignoring for the sake of political correctness. There is information your not getting openly provided. Another case of our news trying to manipulate, right networks such as fox manipulating one way, others towards progressive ideologies. Either way, our news networks suck.

Quote
That thing about context.  Now if you propose that we do something a bit akin to what Greece and especially (to my understanding) Hungary have been doing, and treat refugees much the same as the US treats the current Black population?  Sure there will be riots.  We already get riots.  And there are very logical reasons why.

Nope, not proposing we do anything akin to greece or Hungary, if anything simple ID checks would suffice substantially since after all, thats all that really needs to be done. Unless our government wants to go as far as holding for questioning or something, which would be wrong. Now, For one, I believe the proper connotation is, African American. None the less, Please forgive me when I say this but, All lives matter. And there is clearly NOT any kind of wide spread miss treatment of african americans these days. Now if we talk police however, that is a different matter as the police department has in the past and still do look at race. Even African American and Latino cops do it. Hell, watch Straight Out Of Compton. It is wrong. I dont think all cops are racist however, as there are racist cops, not ALL are racist. But I do agree profiling is in fact a real issue. However profiling is not racism, it is simply ignorance. Now with that said, your bringing it up makes no sense. I find it troubling you said the BLM movement, and migrants, have logical reason to riot. As if it is no big deal that a riot breaks out. I DONT actually think you find riots 'ok' or anything, so dont get me wrong. I just think that you probably did not word that the way that you wanted to. Just remember, What happens in a riot. Public disorder, property damage, thievery, and assault. In what way is there a 'logical reason' to incite violence alongside a group of like minded individuals to rampantly assault, steal from, and destroy property, of which most individuals that are hurt from this more then likely had NOTHING to do with what made you mad in the first place. When the BLM movement rioted, they burned down buildings even, of which just belonged to people who want to live their lives. It is not ok to incite anarchy and damage the lives of people that did NOTHING to you. And let's be real, the community is not guilty of anything their law enforcement does.  So I think with that context in mind we can agree rioting is illogical, and irrational. All it does, is also hurt the people that had nothing to do with your pain, rather then just hurting the establishment your trying to attack. If rioters bring up a reason as to why, it is not logic, it is shameless justification for their own actions.

As well,  Your simply bringing something up that pulls off subject, and I dont really appreciate it as I feel the entire purpose of doing so was to walk me into saying something stupid. As more then likely, you probably just did that. Walked me into a conversation, that made me look stupid.

But yes I will provide context: The migrants rioted over religious intolerance. But again, how is a lynch mob, riot or assault at all an acceptable response to some one hurting your feelings? If that were true the world would not have as little order as it does.

Quote
Would you care to provide a quotation?  As far as I'm concerned, you just pulled that out of nowhere. 

      But now that you do that?  It might suggest to me that maybe you're holding onto something, which makes you very, very paranoid about the notion that people have, or might sometime, suggest you're being racist...  Cause otherwise I'm not sure where the heck you got this from. 

      All I said (in what I believe is the vicinity you were talking about before this very bizarre question) is I don't think you understand much about the phrase "Allah Akhbar" also being in more general use.  I'm no expert but I would be highly surprised if only fundamentalists ever use it; I think it's thrown around like various groups in the US toss references to Jesus, except probably much more often --  whenever someone is really upset with the state of affairs, I would imagine.  And the term is not racial as Americans talk of race.  It is a religious term. 

Islam does have a broadly invoked concept of social justice (with a bit of moral outrage, sure) that has broader applications than the sorts of social prescriptions favored by Al Qaeda and Isis and the Taliban -- although reading enough of some people like Vekseid off in another thread, might just lead one to think there's little point looking it up.  At most, you can play Samuel Huntington writing Clash of Civilizations and imagine it as some unitary ethnic term that should somehow drive one group against everyone else magically...  But calling that race?  Islam is not a race.  No.  And even if it were: Saying you don't know something is not the same as calling you racist or whatever.  But you sure seem awfully jumpy about it.

Your confused where I could have got this from? Ok now I am confused because, what else could you have been implying, when you said; "Are you saying that anyone from the Near East who shouts "Allah Akbar" must obviously be some fundamentalist terrorist? " I dont know about you, but it seems to be an implied statement. The implication that I am racist has NOTHING to do with the religious aspect of your comment, I dont think Islam is a race, I am not ignorant. The implication comes from the fact that you asked if I think anyone in the middle east that shouts Alahu Akbar is a terrorist. No, I dont think so. It in fact, in case you did not know what the words mean, means God Is Great. 

Sorry if I took it the wrong way but what else could you have meant? Further, your statement here seems entirely worded in such a manner as to aggressively break my guard. Assert I am worried about being racist, And debase me. I implore you, please stop. Ive been enjoying this debate. To debase in debate: Is to attempt to lower the moral character of someone. Make them appear less moral then the other party. And at numerous points, this one included. You have asked questions in which directly challenge my morality. Im not trying to sound like a broken record, but it is really not fair in a debate. And I am certain most would agree. Tell me, did I ever question your intelligence, morals, or beliefs? No. Please stop questioning my moral character. It is quite insulting, especially since I never questioned yours.


Quote
Assuming that the only choices people have are malice or stupidity, sounds like a pretty knee jerk philosophy to me.  You've already made up your mind there could be 'no reason' you would ever believe for it, and now you're just looking for a culprit.  Look for people being motivated by something other than old cliches about hand that feeds you.  I don't have to accept anything from you if I think taking it is going to put me in a bad position for the next year or five, after I've just suffered for hundreds of miles for something different.  There are pressing modern ideas, like the one about the EU country that spends time caring for you, gets seen by the others as the one that gets to decide your fate -- and we already know what Hungary's most likely to decide. 

Im sorry this confuses me a great deal. Hopefully this response makes it wholly clear, I actually have an open mind in these things. As anyone should. A debate should be open minded, one side willing to listen to the other, thats how learning is done! xD . Any way, What could I possibly need a culprit for? The migrants didnt do anything to me, I am not asserting any ails in my life to them. Im not thinking they are gonna take jobs or something dumb like that. Im stating clearly, we need to be careful. But I wont go into that again as at this point I think we actually agree there should be a simple documentation check. Which really is all I am saying when I say have caution, not trying to be as broad as you were afraid I was. No fears, no worries, not trying to say it in some broad arching statement left to malicious imagination and a maniacal laughter. I simply mean what you agreed is logical, documentation check. Now as for their own anger, I understand. But it doesnt change the fact that because there is a reason for anger, doesnt make it ok. It just meant there was an explanation, or excuse to their actions. Excuses dont make it right.

   
Quote
So I might venture one alternative explanation:  Many of the Muslim countries are more conservative (even more than the Deep South, sigh) and ranging from merely gender segregated to pretty gender discriminatory in quite a few areas.  That doesn't mean they are all Isis, nor are all  -- nor anywhere vaguely near majorities -- simply composed of would-be terrorists. 

      Maybe they aren't so often comfortable sending women without "protectors" when they can only afford to pay smugglers for some.  Maybe they prefer to place female relatives in more culturally familiar settings until they get established overseas.  And come to think of it?  If your own logic about security and gender suspicion stands, then other regional states might well be more accepting of women than of men also, thus making it eminently practical to place the women there while the men take more physical risks (often having to travel illegally or deal with unknown middle parties, often separated from what relatives they do travel with) and go off to look for jobs and places to stay abroad!

Well, good thing they are not all Isis, now I can breath happily. Lol. Joking aside, (Again sorry for being such a kidder >_<  . I know we should take this more seriously.). Never thought they were all isis. At this point actually we are beating a dead horse because no matter what I say I cant prove any are isis, just as you can not prove any are not. The fact remains, there very well may be isis supporters among them. Not that it matters, as long as we use proper documentation. Also it is not gender suspicion, my suspicions have nothing to do with males and everything to do with the actual threats isis made as well as the evidence pointing to there being fake immigrants. Yes, I made clear wording towards males, but it is not BECAUSE they are male, it is because everything else around the crisis warrants a deeper look. I in fact regret even going into males. So at this point I will not comment any further on that, and as such will ignore any other comments on it. As I dont want to continue talking about a ignorant comment of my own, that we all agree is ignorant and therefor now serves no further purpose to the conversation.

 
Quote
Perhaps, if you believe it's their duty to be tortured and gassed.

Or perhaps you feel it is your own duty to debase those you debate with? Again, I never used anything you said to twist and turn into more then it was, never grabbed anything and tried to make you look stupid or immoral. This kind of passive aggression is quite annoying, as it try's to devalue my arguments by making me appear shameful. How did my statement EVER come to me thinking they should all die horribly? Please explain to me how my comment states I want people to die. It was not a moral attack on their part but merely an observation that they are in fit, fighting, shape.

Quote
You just said above that 80% are men.  Or was this about a different group somewhere?  (Again, not sure who/what exactly you're looking at...)

Lol, and clearly edited it. Or are we conveniently going to forget I edited it? I put a line through the comment, and clearly admitted it's ignorance.
Heres that edit
Quote
80 percent Edit:meant most of the men, not that 80 percent are male. I shouldnt bring in nub=mbers, im bad with them. :P lol.

Quote
Sounds like you were much more concerned about welfare programs, than about Isis all along.  I refer you back to others who have found that the majority are actually in trouble.  Or to parts of the conversation which have somewhat already been done about the economics rather than about terrorism so much.  Sure ask a few questions of arrivals, but I don't see good reason to act too much like the politics of Hungary or maybe, Pat Buchanan and more recently, Ben Carson or Donald Trump might suggest.

HAHA HA HA, I clearly put the article there to show that people are lying that they are Migrants. But no, let's twist this. Let's make him look like he doesnt even know what he is concerned about, and try to assert he thinks this is a economic issue.  Again, it's not about economics. Just because the article goes into it doesn't mean that is what I was going for. I wanted to show that people are pretending to be migrants, as there ARE.  It is not economically a worry to me, merely a moral observation of character. It is sickening to feel that anyone can try to make a gain from their suffering. And the 'tax payers money' comment was a figure of speech. This comment again asserts that it is impossible to be concerned of both thing's. Such things are not a one way or the other thing. You can be worried about both! Though, Im not worried about both, but if I was that wouldn't be wrong. My concern is Isis, the lying migrants is more a moral observation.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 08:03:17 PM by Garuss Vakarian »