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Author Topic: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)  (Read 5195 times)

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Offline DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #125 on: September 06, 2015, 03:28:53 AM »
So an immigrant who's turning away food and water should have the same rights in their new country as a local resident who's been paying taxes, rent and has been living there for all their life?

If that's the kind of argument people use, they're pretty fucked cause it's not a very strong argument that will find much back up in said country. :)

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #126 on: September 06, 2015, 04:20:16 AM »
So an immigrant who's turning away food and water should have the same rights in their new country as a local resident who's been paying taxes, rent and has been living there for all their life?

If that's the kind of argument people use, they're pretty fucked cause it's not a very strong argument that will find much back up in said country. :)

If we're talking of the right not to get beaten up by the police, the right not to get thrown into a camp in whatever location when he doesn't even want to be inside the country, only wants to get through and out - then I'd say yes. And those are the issues these immigrants were facing in Hungary - at least the ones in your examples. Why would you trust someone who has just fired tear gas grenades at you and everyone you're with? And who has shown you they are not interested in any cooperation (and who speaks a language nobody in the group understands)? He's got a police badge, but so what?

The regime is using those people as a pawn in its own tactical games against a couple of other European cabinets, and I find that very unworthy.

Offline ladia2287

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #127 on: September 06, 2015, 04:28:05 AM »
I'm reminded of something that happened here in Australia in the early 2000s. Can't remember the exact year, but it's a well known scandal.

Our then-Prime Minister, John Howard, against the protests of the majority of Australia, set up a system where refugees (which he decided were 'illegal immigrants') would be thrown straight into prison upon arrival. I remember there being much horror among the population when it was revealed that the conditions in these "detention centres" were worse than the prisons we send our own criminals to.

And then a certain photograph was found either by the media or by John Howard's spin doctors. All the photograph showed was a group of people chest-deep in water with a rickety fishing boat in the background. John Howard told the nation for weeks that it was illegal immigrants throwing their children overboard, and that they were such horrible people and this was why he was implementing such a 'strict' immigration policy.

And then a few weeks later the truth came out. The fishing boat was the boat they were trying so desperately to get to our shores in. It was sinking rapidly. All of the occupants were desperately trying to get off the boat in the hopes that they wouldn't be trapped and drown with it. No one was throwing anybody overboard at all; they were simply trying to stay alive until help came.

So I'm sceptical of accusations that the refugees currently attempting to travel through Europe are 'ungrateful' or that their presence is in any way detrimental to the local population. No matter how flat you make a pancake, it still has two sides though.

Not saying that the refugees in this instance are in the right, nor am I arguing for the authorities. I don't know enough either way. I'm just saying that a few seconds of video or a few lines in a newspaper does not prove whether or not someone deserves a better life. We all deserve to feel safe.

Offline kylie

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #128 on: September 06, 2015, 08:52:21 AM »
      Another aspect that struck me about Mason's column is the simple idea that perhaps Europe can't control the flow of refugees very well.  And once the tide reaches a certain number, that's it, the people are there (though perhaps more for some countries than others?) and the society is going to deal with them one way or another.  The question is how.  And if you can't move them out in droves near equivalent to the rate they are now starting to come in, then the society is going to change somehow as a result -- again, how.

1.  You can do what the West has done to some extent already, however haltingly, and provide working papers and the understanding that certain areas of the city will be open to these people (many of them being rather destitute to begin with), with the understanding that they will be the newest pool of cheap labor and often, takers of less desirable or less safe jobs, until however many years it takes for their work and/or economic trends to lift them up.  The only questions with this is, how many lower-tier workers does each country really need in the current economic mess, and will these populations and/or their hosts all manage to get on with whatever regimes are concocted to police the numbers that actually do show up now that they're swarming out of places like Syria?  Or will there be some fundamental change or crisis that follows in the wider host society?

2.  You can deport some of them -- but how many can you really round up and pay to move at once? -- and see how many try it again or hope they pick some other Euro country to try...  Though do this hard enough, and there may be some problems of conscience given all the perils of the recent immigrants' entry in the first place.  It's hard to sell the idea that they should really be excited to live in neighboring countries with totalitarian governments, issues with immediate terrorism and religious violence galore, lax labor laws to speak of, and sometimes rather brutal ways of 'controlling' unapproved populations.

3.  You can integrate them in some way that actually improves and levels the basic allowance for both them and the disadvantaged in the host population.  Which in the long run might solve a number of problems.  But everyone from the filthy rich down to the poor who have been "waiting their turn for this long, see what a good citizen suffering makes me even though I might have been marginally abused for years in the process!" will take offense at this in the short term.  It also works better if your neighbors are adopting similarly egalitarian policies, while in Europe the trend right now seems more toward fragmentation?  Sigh.

4.  What have I maybe, missed?

Offline eBadger

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #129 on: September 06, 2015, 01:12:09 PM »
I don't know what I would do.

So you're not certain you'd fall over yourself in appreciation while struggling to survive in prison, but you can't conceive why these people aren't?

That's how I'm raised.

I was raised to protect my child and provide for her future. 

Except they pay taxes and rent and health insurances. So it's not reasonable at all.

By this logic, anyone visiting a foreign country - where they don't pay taxes - lacks any rights at all.

Also, you've made a big issue of your expectation to move to the UK, and have begrudged the notion that refugees might get that ahead of you.  Please explain why you should have any expectation of rights or fair treatment in a foreign country and these refugees shouldn't, because so far the only reason you've given is that they are poor and in fear of their lives, and you aren't from a third world country. 

Offline DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #130 on: September 06, 2015, 01:13:52 PM »
So you're not certain you'd fall over yourself in appreciation while struggling to survive in prison, but you can't conceive why these people aren't?

I was raised to protect my child and provide for her future. 

By this logic, anyone visiting a foreign country - where they don't pay taxes - lacks any rights at all.

Also, you've made a big issue of your expectation to move to the UK, and have begrudged the notion that refugees might get that ahead of you.  Please explain why you should have any expectation of rights or fair treatment in a foreign country and these refugees shouldn't, because so far the only reason you've given is that they are poor and in fear of their lives, and you aren't from a third world country.

I pay taxes, I adapt to the British culture and the language. Had I been a refugee, I'd have accepted what was given to me.

Offline eBadger

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #131 on: September 06, 2015, 03:07:31 PM »
You pay full taxes before moving there?  Are the refugees exempt from taxation?  Are they unwilling to adapt? 

You didn't address the visitors issue; after all, the refugees you're most offended by aren't trying to settle there, they're trying to get out. 

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #132 on: September 06, 2015, 03:12:51 PM »
I pay taxes, I adapt to the British culture and the language.

Who's to say that the refugees won't do the same in whichever country they plan on settling in? 

Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #133 on: September 08, 2015, 09:51:30 PM »
Going to share this video in case it's useful to anyone reading this topic.


Offline LtSurge

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #134 on: September 09, 2015, 01:24:15 AM »

If they are fleeing the war, why not go to Algeria? Or Egypt? Or stay in Greece or accept what Italy is offering you.

Considering there are hundreds of miles between UK and the more troubled areas of Africa/Arab states, it's reasonable to speculate that these people are after the benefits the system provides in the UK, beyond simple relocation and getting out of harm's way.

Offline kylie

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #135 on: September 09, 2015, 03:27:28 AM »
    Dash, have you watched the news on Egypt lately? It is not the most peaceful place either. It has become rather notorious for police brutality and military crackdowns.

   Greece is also in something of a swell of rightist and anti-immigrant sentiment, too.

     Once you are pretty much uprooted, it can be less than appealing to settle for replaying nany of the same problems with even less resources and in a foreign country, if you have any choice. People will shop around for better things.

Offline LtSurge

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #136 on: September 09, 2015, 04:00:08 AM »
    Dash, have you watched the news on Egypt lately? It is not the most peaceful place either. It has become rather notorious for police brutality and military crackdowns.

   Greece is also in something of a swell of rightist and anti-immigrant sentiment, too.

     Once you are pretty much uprooted, it can be less than appealing to settle for replaying nany of the same problems with even less resources and in a foreign country, if you have any choice. People will shop around for better things.

As refugees it wouldn't make sense for people in those areas to stick around the troubled nations, anyway, rather than spread out all over Europe(not just the UK/France), where these dictators have no power.

However, this will not ultimately solve the problem of these foreign lands. And most people who have grown up in one society will likely not easily integrate into another. A massive influx of unskilled people who don't share the education, cultural identity or political values of one nation may further destabilize it.

Something has to be done about these oppressive regimes in the middle-east and Africa so these people can go back home in peace. However, when has western intervention really succeeded in these human theaters? And if, hypothetically, we got rid of all these regimes, who is to say other oppressive regimes won't simply take their place?

We got rid of Taliban, then we got Al-Qaeda. We got rid of Al-Qaeda, then we got ISIS.

Interventionism doesn't work, and allowing every unskilled person to live here permanently and consume social services at no cost to them may push our economies to the brink of collapse.

Offline DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #137 on: September 09, 2015, 06:17:03 AM »
Greece is also in something of a swell of rightist and anti-immigrant sentiment, too.


If those 'refugees' keep behaving the way they did in Hungary, a lot more countries will follow their lead.

Offline consortium11

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #138 on: September 09, 2015, 06:48:40 AM »
     Paul Mason has a column I found interesting about the Syrian refugee crisis and a touch on Western economies.  Among other things, he says the West economically speaking, needs immigrants -- a rather large number of them.

Being entirely cynical, the West needs the right sort of immigrants.

Norway did a detailed study on the financial cost/benefit of immigration which came to the conclusion that the average non-Western immigrant cost the state around $650,000 over the course of their life (while Western immigrants are a net benefit). It should also be noted there's a significant variation among the groups even within the non-Western bracket; for examples, Somalians cost about twice that. Denmark found similar results with non-Western immigrants leading to significant losses. In every study I'm aware of non-Western immigrants have a vastly lower employment rate then either Western immigrants or the existing population; to use Sweden's statistics as an example under half of all non-Western immigrants are employed while 87% of the existing population are.

I picked out countries like Norway, Denmark and Sweden specifically not just because they have statistics avaliable but because on paper they're some of the countries where it should be easiest for immigrants to assimilate and start working. To take Norway specifically, there is free education, highly subsidized childcare, a vast economy per capita and a very low unemployment rate which should be near perfect conditions for new immigrants to get (and stay) in the labour market.

The basic issue is this; not enough non-Western immigrants work when they emigrate to Western countries. Thus they as a demographic not only don't contribute to the state (as they don't pay taxes related to employment or contribute to productivity) they are an active drain on it as they claim state benefits (which is only exacerbated as they grow older and claim more benefits). The hope would be that even if first generation immigrants are a short term cost their children will end up contributing but there's little evidence to show that's the case (and it should be noted that because as a demographic non-Western immigrants have more children while claiming more benefits this actually exacerbates the short term costs). Non-Western immigrant communities largely end up getting stuck in a cycle of poverty and benefit dependency that means they remain an ongoing drain rather than benefit.

Now, this isn't a "they're all lazy and sponging off us!" rant, although I'm sure some do go to countries with that mindset (considering the economic migrants in this current situation who are hellbent on getting to Germany and its more generous welfare system). This immigrants tend to be poorly educated and lacking in employable skills in Western economies. But as mentioned above with regards to Norway, even when a system which provides about as good an opportunity to improve your skills and find employment exists participation rates are still shockingly low.

So when people argue that Western countries (especially European ones) need more immigrants from the evidence we have what they're actually saying (whether they want to or not) is that we need more immigrants from other Western countries.

Offline kylie

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #139 on: September 09, 2015, 08:11:33 AM »
Quote from: Dashenka
If those 'refugees' keep behaving the way they did in Hungary, a lot more countries will follow their lead.

     I dunno, I think you're picking on a rather minor thing personally, as your main argument is more of a rhetorical people should take whatever they're offered by the system anywhere and be thankful it isn't worse.  Maybe no one should ever try for anything better then either.  I have no idea where that ends.  You don't seem to appreciate that the Western citizenship model of "paying one's dues" is also the system that says, oh my elderly person in wheelchair can't really pay all that many dues these last few years, and we don't have to support her with benefits of much quality either.  (And that's before we get to the question of do we support the initially handicapped and ill, etc.)  But you want us to feel sympathy for her because she isn't taken care of first just because she's 'one of ours' etc.  If we stepped back from paying dues and talked about how many resources are around and filling some basic needs without bloating the very top of the economic pyramid, then it wouldn't likely be such a massive struggle as it is.  And I would bet there would be a fair chunk left over in much of the West that could go toward integrating refugees in much more stabilizing conditions.

      In addition, there are competing arguments for where the anti-immigrant sentiment comes from.  Many cite the huge unemployment figures which have plagued Greece for the last few years, even before the latest rush of people out of North Africa and Syria.  We've already had our discussions elsewhere perhaps about how much of that is down to the national government, and how much is down to them being locked into Euro fiscal policy which really doesn't suit them.

      And the Greeks have also done a few things that I could imagine, if I were an immigrant, I might be rather legitimately outraged at them too, and less than eager to play into a narrative of oh, look at the kind tiny token gestures after all that has happened.  For instance...

Quote from: Reuters July 31
A Greek court acquitted two men accused over the shooting of migrant farm workers who were demanding unpaid wages and gave two foremen suspended sentences in a ruling that prompted outrage from unions and rights groups on Thursday.

Twenty eight migrants, mostly Bangladeshi, were wounded when foremen at a strawberry farm opened fire on about 200 immigrant workers who were protesting for back pay in the southwestern town of Manolada in April last year.

The court in the southern city of Patras on Wednesday acquitted the farm owner and a supervisor and handed down prison terms of seven and 14 years for two foremen on charges of causing grievous bodily harm. The sentences will be suspended pending an appeal hearing, court sources said. The ruling in favor of the owner and supervisor cannot be appealed.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:20:12 AM by kylie »

Offline kylie

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #140 on: September 09, 2015, 08:20:29 AM »
Quote from: Consortium
I picked out countries like Norway, Denmark and Sweden specifically not just because they have statistics avaliable but because on paper they're some of the countries where it should be easiest for immigrants to assimilate and start working. To take Norway specifically, there is free education, highly subsidized childcare, a vast economy per capita and a very low unemployment rate which should be near perfect conditions for new immigrants to get (and stay) in the labour market.
     I'm more concerned there with first, whether the countries could find work for people to begin with.  If they have made it too difficult for people to get in and work at all, isn't that a problem they have created for themselves? 

     By focusing on select countries, you're also limiting the pool so that we don't have similar data on other countries.  Or to put it another way, closer to what you seem to be saying anyway, we can't know exactly what would happen in other countries if they don't make it possible for immigrants to try there.  (Though I'm still uncomfortable because you've stepped back from providing comparative information for what we do have, however qualified that might have to be.) 

     I feel we shouldn't simply assume the work and social cultures of Germany and the Scandanavian countries are all that similar without investigating them all.  The needs of some Euro countries may be quite different from others, too.  Consider just for one example, this comparative aging chart.  In 2040, picking the more visible dark blue line for each country, around 23-25% of the Swedish, Danish and Norwegian populations will be over 50.  However in Germany, the number is closer to 33%.  It would seem to me that this suggests Germany may be more in need of young laborers, even relatively less skilled ones, to provide service jobs or manufacturing - or whatever it needs that the elders are not going to be supplying.  The Scandinavian countries have small populations and a lot of open space; Germany has packed urban areas stretching over much more of the country.  I haven't checked, but is the pension system completely comparable either?  Etc. 

Quote
So when people argue that Western countries (especially European ones) need more immigrants from the evidence we have what they're actually saying (whether they want to or not) is that we need more immigrants from other Western countries.
     I'm doubtful it makes practical sense to read it that way.  If Europe as a whole needs that many people -- which is how I understood the report to be paraphrased -- then it's still a net loss doing what they're doing (i.e. restricting immigrants in principle to port of call countries which don't seem to want so many, or turning many away outright) unless they get them from -- where?  They generally don't take them from the U.S. without super specialized skills as it is.  Who does that leave that would be allowable under their policy, considered 'Western,' and not a let loss for Europe?  I don't imagine it's much easier for Aussies to get in, though I could be wrong?  Perhaps some Brits, if Britain wasn't being counted in the figure, but I suspect they were included in that definition of Europe.   

Offline LtSurge

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #141 on: September 09, 2015, 09:29:58 AM »
     I dunno, I think you're picking on a rather minor thing personally, as your main argument is more of a rhetorical people should take whatever they're offered by the system anywhere and be thankful it isn't worse.  Maybe no one should ever try for anything better then either.  I have no idea where that ends.  You don't seem to appreciate that the Western citizenship model of "paying one's dues" is also the system that says, oh my elderly person in wheelchair can't really pay all that many dues these last few years, and we don't have to support her with benefits of much quality either.  (And that's before we get to the question of do we support the initially handicapped and ill, etc.)  But you want us to feel sympathy for her because she isn't taken care of first just because she's 'one of ours' etc.  If we stepped back from paying dues and talked about how many resources are around and filling some basic needs without bloating the very top of the economic pyramid, then it wouldn't likely be such a massive struggle as it is.

Plenty of private charities exist to help people, and the western governments have established social safety nets(though I don't agree with government welfare programs as they are often used as emotional appeal to justify taxation, seizing of earnings to support a Welfare state). However, these programs work off of LIMITED RESOURCES. How do you expect to feed a hundred people in your house, if you barely make enough money to feed thirty? Hypothetically speaking. The mathematics aren't in favour of a dramatic increase in mouths to feed without economic strain.

Let's not forget that the bulk of these people aren't old or frail. Otherwise they wouldn't have made it very far into Europe.

Offline kylie

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #142 on: September 09, 2015, 09:40:31 AM »
      Mathematically, assuming what.  If people don't change policies, lots of things are impossible.  Preventing mass starvation.  Stopping global warming.  Avoiding recessions every ten years or sooner.   Stopping the American class system from increasingly mimicking the 19th century.  Show me fixed resources assuming people had some political will, and that's another question.  Or start more from Dash's point of view and excuse the lack of will to begin with by finding someone outside to blame.  But there's a whole lot of wealth tied up in the West to be accounted for before someone can prove it's mathematically "impossible" to take care of some people.  And they have to be given serious conditions where they can integrate and work in more than one or two countries people feel are 'best' at this moment politically, before they can be expected to find a whole lot of steady work.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 09:47:17 AM by kylie »

Offline Oniya

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #143 on: September 09, 2015, 09:52:12 AM »
But there's a whole lot of wealth tied up in the West to be accounted for before someone can prove it's mathematically "impossible" to take care of some people. 

As an example of this - in the US, there are more empty houses than homeless people.  Mathematically, it's possible to take care of our own and then some.

Offline Zakharra

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #144 on: September 09, 2015, 09:58:14 AM »
 There's a difference between having to care for others and being required to do so. It seems that many here seem to think the EU and US is required to take in tens to hundreds of thousands to millions of refugees (whatever that means now. The term seems to have been broadened to mean -anything- now). Yes, by dint of the wealth the West has, it can theoretically take care of tens of millions of refugees if it wanted to. But this is completely discounting the societal, cultural, economic and emotional cost. The numbers that are starting to flood in to Europe are only increasing, and if it keeps doing so and Europe doesn't start turning them back, there's going to be a large cultural/social disruption.

 Consortium11 states it well, the West needs the right -kind- of migrant, and much of what is coming isn't the right kind (ie educated and able and more importantly, willing to adapt to the new culture). The newcomers need to adapt to their new nation (whether they are there permanently or temporary), what they shouldn't do is make ethnic enclaves that don't change and refuse to assimilate into the culture of the nation around them.  The locals are getting frustrated and its showing as hostility to the incoming refugees/migrants/illegals because the locals don't want -that- many of the strangers pouring in. Especially ones that have a very different culture and very likely do not speak their language.

The EU and US can and should take in some, but the main problem is the numbers that have shown up and are expected show up.It's very likely going to be millions to tens of millions in the next few years, especially if the ones coming in now are able to get a decent deal. THAT is what will stress the system and there will be a backlash against the newcomers when there is an apparent never ending flood of refugees/migrants/illegals.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2015, 10:05:59 AM »
(whatever that means now. The term seems to have been broadened to mean -anything- now).

"A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it."

This has been the legal definition since 1951.

Offline DashenkaTopic starter

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2015, 10:35:11 AM »
     I dunno, I think you're picking on a rather minor thing personally, as your main argument is more of a rhetorical people should take whatever they're offered by the system anywhere and be thankful it isn't worse.  Maybe no one should ever try for anything better then either.  I have no idea where that ends.  You don't seem to appreciate that the Western citizenship model of "paying one's dues" is also the system that says, oh my elderly person in wheelchair can't really pay all that many dues these last few years, and we don't have to support her with benefits of much quality either.  (And that's before we get to the question of do we support the initially handicapped and ill, etc.)  But you want us to feel sympathy for her because she isn't taken care of first just because she's 'one of ours' etc.  If we stepped back from paying dues and talked about how many resources are around and filling some basic needs without bloating the very top of the economic pyramid, then it wouldn't likely be such a massive struggle as it is.  And I would bet there would be a fair chunk left over in much of the West that could go toward integrating refugees in much more stabilizing conditions.

It's not an argument, it's an observation. People always only see the bad things. The images of infants washing up on the shores are forgotten. All 'they' see now is pillaging, plundering and raping immigrants. Whether or not this is true, the immigrants have caused most of this themselves.


      In addition, there are competing arguments for where the anti-immigrant sentiment comes from.  Many cite the huge unemployment figures which have plagued Greece for the last few years, even before the latest rush of people out of North Africa and Syria.  We've already had our discussions elsewhere perhaps about how much of that is down to the national government, and how much is down to them being locked into Euro fiscal policy which really doesn't suit them.

      And the Greeks have also done a few things that I could imagine, if I were an immigrant, I might be rather legitimately outraged at them too, and less than eager to play into a narrative of oh, look at the kind tiny token gestures after all that has happened.  For instance...

True as all this might be, the Greek are in their own country, suffering from enough problems themselves. The last thing they want, or any country, is a group of violent, ungratefull immigrants.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #147 on: September 09, 2015, 11:03:49 AM »
I live in a town with a lot of refugees.  The schools send home important announcements in multiple languages, however the most poignant thing I have heard is that there are two men who literally go door to door among the Nepalese community to help with these announcements because the adults are not able to read even their native language.  The children are learning English and assimilating into the community - they are flexible and in the stage where learning a new language is easy.  There are ESL classes for adults at the schools and churches, but transportation and scheduling can be an issue - as is finding someone skilled enough to teach these classes.

Offline LtSurge

Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #148 on: September 09, 2015, 11:18:10 AM »
"Mathematically assuming what"
Mathematically, assuming Economy. Financial systems. Resource extraction. Agricultural output. GDP.

Countries that have their own financial crises aren't going to be helped by a massive influx of unskilled people who demand to be cared for.

Food isn't an infinite resource, I hope you know. And neither is it free. The government doesn't just magic wealth and prosperity into existence. It uses forceful coercion to extract money from its citizenry to fund its various social services... and to my knowledge, a lot of illegals are making use of these services whilst not paying back into the system(because they are unskilled and cannot hold jobs for whatever reason, or they get paid under-the-table)

If this is the trend I can only see an expansion of the welfare state and more pressure put on the middle-class to survive.

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Re: Refugees, Immigration, and Other Complexities (split from News)
« Reply #149 on: September 09, 2015, 11:31:21 AM »
Food is indeed not infinite.  That's why headlines like these are so unsettling.

Although the tomatoes that grew in my compost pile would make a case for food being a bit closer to free than many would suspect.  I bought one tomato, consumed most of it, and got six more from the one slice that sprouted.