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Author Topic: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)  (Read 14718 times)

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Online Cassandra LeMay

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #400 on: December 10, 2015, 02:09:21 AM »
The Supreme Court has refused in a 7-2 decision (Thomas and Scalia dissenting) to hear a challenge against the weapons regulations of Highland Park, Illinois.

By declining to hear the challenge against the Sevent Circuit Court of Appeals ruling (pdf) SCOTUS allows a statute to stand that bans magazines with more than a 10 round capacity and "assault weapons" (in the Highland Park statute defined by a list of features, but also some by name like AK-47s and AR-15s).
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 02:12:35 AM by Cassandra LeMay »

Offline Tairis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #401 on: December 10, 2015, 08:59:46 AM »

I think we're starting to repeat what we're saying to each other.  So, how about it, Tairis.  Agree to disagree?

Since we seem to be going in circles, might as well.

Online Cassandra LeMay

*dusts of the old topic*

Here might be as good a place as any to post this link: http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/gun-deaths/

Fivethrityeight has posted a number of articles on gun deaths. I haven't read all of them yet, but this being fivethirtyeight, I expect them to all be well-researched and focused on solid statistics. (Just click on the "menu" in the upper left for a list of articles.)

I don't want to get into a new round of discussions here, but I figured some of you might still be interested.

Offline Tairis

It's a good breakdown and shows just how different the overall picture is from what the media tends to focus on. Nice to see it spelled out without the usual heavy handed bias.

Offline Retribution

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I am not through the whole article yet but well written from what I have seen and non bias. If someone approached me in this manner rather than our sound bite society of "guns bad!" I would be willing to listen. There are many vastly complicated issues out there concerning violence (I am counting suicide as violence though not sure if that fits) that no one solution can fix. Not to mention as stated in said article we do not really know what is causing a lot of the situations and a basic understanding would be a really great step.


Offline Lustful Bride

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I am not through the whole article yet but well written from what I have seen and non bias. If someone approached me in this manner rather than our sound bite society of "guns bad!" I would be willing to listen. There are many vastly complicated issues out there concerning violence (I am counting suicide as violence though not sure if that fits) that no one solution can fix. Not to mention as stated in said article we do not really know what is causing a lot of the situations and a basic understanding would be a really great step.

I don't think suicide should really count as Gun violence though. The problem is the circumstances that cause the person to suicide. Not really the gun and its availability. Someone determined to kill themselves has an innumerable amount of ways to do it.

Offline LisztesFerenc

I don't think suicide should really count as Gun violence though. The problem is the circumstances that cause the person to suicide. Not really the gun and its availability. Someone determined to kill themselves has an innumerable amount of ways to do it.

  That's simply not true. Suicide attempts are often unsuccessful, guns are the second most successful option (after jumping off a bridge). Studies from the WHO find that unsuccessful attempts rarely lead to a second attempt. So yes, suicide by gun is absolutely a negative effect of easy availability.

Offline Lustful Bride

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  That's simply not true. Suicide attempts are often unsuccessful, guns are the second most successful option (after jumping off a bridge). Studies from the WHO find that unsuccessful attempts rarely lead to a second attempt. So yes, suicide by gun is absolutely a negative effect of easy availability.

Well..when you put it like that then, okay. :/

Offline LisztesFerenc

Well..when you put it like that then, okay. :/

  Here's the statistics: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/

  Basically, for people who non-successfully attempted and required medical care as a result:
7% try again and eventually succeed
23% try again unsuccessfully
70% never tried again

Offline Lustful Bride

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Putting this here just in case it doesn't meet the standards of the News thread.


So, unsure 100% about the validity of this since it seems only the sites that lean to the right and are pro gun are reporting on this. But apparently Obama has put in some order that will require even smaller gunsmiths to register as manufacturers (even if they only do repairs and custom works for older weapons) and be required to pay for licenses that are so expensive it will put many of them out of business.  (Hurray! More unemployment!)

http://controversialtimes.com/news/breaking-obama-signs-new-gun-control-executive-order-puts-gunsmiths-out-of-business/


Like I said I cant really confirm the validity of it. It might be worse than what it is or it might be total bullshit made up by gunnuts. *throws up arms* at this point I don't care.

Optional momentary rant
Little by little I care less :P  *sarcasm mode activated* let the government be the only ones to have guns. Fuck it, I will be sure to thank my senators if I am raped :P because they kept me safe and totally care for my well being, not their bottom line.

I am half tempted to ask for jackbooted thugs to start oppressing everyone so I can sarcastically make comments at everyone for fun. :P

My right to guns may be taken away but my right to sarcasm will not be. (at least until the constitution and bill of rights are totally dismantled.)
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:41:31 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Preeeeety sure that's BS. Or if it is true, Obama has nothing to do with it directly. The White House website has his most recent Executive Order - #13733, released a week ago, and I can't find a single mention of guns, manufacturers, or anything else that the link is screaming about. It's just some sort of clarification as to which government agencies/officials do things related to international trade, I think.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/07/22/executive-order-delegation-certain-authorities-and-assignment-certain


I'd wait until some actual gun-control law is passed, before getting outraged - so far the hardliner Republican block in the senate has successfully squashed anything remotely approaching gun control. But then, I'm not a nutsoid right-wing conspiracy theorist who waits with baited breath for Democratic stormtroopers to break down their door and 'take der guuuuns'.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:54:35 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Lustful Bride

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Preeeeety sure that's BS. Or if it is true, Obama has nothing to do with it directly. The White House website has his most recent Executive Order - #13733, released a week ago, and I can't find a single mention of guns, manufacturers, or anything else that the link is screaming about.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/07/22/executive-order-delegation-certain-authorities-and-assignment-certain

Which order are they talking about then because I keep seeing it plastered everywhere. Unless this is a case of making a mountain out of an anthill...which it probably is likely to be.

Edit: Yeah I'm gonna go with someone said one thing and then everyone else had a screaming fit and made it into something incomprehensible and sounding legit enough to make more people freak :P
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:57:03 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline TheGlyphstone

I have no idea, which is why I'm pretty sure its BS. They specifically cite the EO released on July 22, and that is that one. Can you find any way to interpret it as putting gunsmiths out of business?


Now, to add to the above comments, I'm not impressed with said hardliners. But the comments being made by some of the Democrats aren't exactly impressing me either.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/politics/senate-gun-votes-congress/

"Republicans have decided to sell weapons to ISIS"? Really? That's the line you are going with, Sens. Warren and Murphy?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 10:58:07 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Lustful Bride

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I have no idea, which is why I'm pretty sure its BS. They specifically cite the EO released on July 22, and that is that one. Can you find any way to interpret it as putting gunsmiths out of business?


Now, to add to the above comments, I'm not impressed with said hardliners. But the comments being made by some of the Democrats aren't exactly impressing me either.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/20/politics/senate-gun-votes-congress/

"Republicans are voting to sell weapons to ISIS"? Really? That's the line you are going with?

Ppfftttt hahahaha okay that last part made me laugh. Though usually its "The Americans are selling weapons to isis". But at this point I woudlnt put it past one of those stiffs on Capitol hill to do considering one of them was caught selling weapons to the Morro Islamist Liberation Front. (yes I swear to Jesus himself that their initials do spell out MILF and I am not making it up). You can look it up. Leeland Yee. Ironically he was anti gun :P

I love seeing Politicians get caught.

But seriously this si why I am so disillusioned with my government at times and as my father jokes. "If the Army staged a Coup id grab a beer and watch".

I think I spend too much time with him when hes pissed off at his bosses :P

Offline Oniya

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This would be the thing.  (Home page)

http://pmddtc.state.gov/compliance/Applicability%20of%20the%20ITAR%20Registration%20Requirement%20to%20Firearms%20Manufacturers%20(Publish).pdf

There is a section in there that talks about what does and does not constitute 'manufacturing'.

Quote
Policy Guidance:
The guidance below is limited to domestic (U.S.) activities involving firearms (as defined in Category I(j)(1) of the United States Munitions List (USML)
(22 CFR § 121.1)) and related ammunition that  are  .50  caliber  (12.7  mm)  or smaller - i.e., firearms in Category I, paragraphs (a)  and  (b), related  items  in paragraphs (e)-(h),and ammunition  in  Category III(a)for  those  firearms.  Activities  involving items elsewhere  on  the USML,  including Category I, paragraphs (c) and (d), are not included in the scope of this guidance. 

1. Registration not Required –Not Manufacturing: 

In response to questions from persons engaged  in  the  business  of  gunsmithing,  DDTC  has  found  in  specific  cases  that ITAR registration  is not  required because  the  following  activities  do  not  meet  the  ordinary, contemporary, common meaning of “manufacturing” that DDTC employs in implementing the ITAR and, therefore, do not constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes: 

a)Occasional assembly of firearm parts and kits that do not require cutting, drilling, or machining;
b)Firearm  repairs  involving  one-for-one  drop-in  replacement  parts  that  do  not  require any cutting, drilling, or machining for installation;
c)Repairs  involving  replacement  parts  that  do  not  improve  the  accuracy,  caliber,  or other aspects of firearm operation;
d) Hydrographic paint or Cerakote application or bluing treatments for a firearm;
e) Attachment  of accessories  to  a  completed  firearm  without  drilling,  cutting,  or machining — such as attaching a scope, sling, or light to existing mounts or hooks, or attaching a flash suppressor, sound suppressor, muzzle brake, or similar item to a pre-threaded muzzle;
f) Cosmetic  additions and  alterations  (including  engraving) that  do  not improve  the accuracy,   caliber,   or   other   aspects   of firearm operation beyond   its   original capabilities;
g) Machining  new  dovetails  or  drilling  and  tapping  new  holes for  the installation  of sights which do  not  improve  the  accuracy  or  operation  of  the  firearm  beyond  its original capabilities; and
h) Manual loading or reloading of ammunition of .50 caliber or smaller. 

Activities  limited  to  the  domestic  sale  or  resale  of  firearms,  the  occasional  assembly  of firearms  without  drilling,  cutting,  or  machining,  and/or  specific  gunsmithing activities that do not improve the accuracy, caliber, or operations of the firearm beyond its original capabilities (as  described  above)  are  not  manufacturing  within  the  context  of  the  ITAR.  If  you  are  not  manufacturing, exporting,  temporarily  importing or  brokering defense articles or services, you are not required to register with DDTC.

2.Registration Required – Manufacturing: 
In response to questions from persons engaged in the business of gunsmithing, DDTC has found in specific cases that ITAR registration is required because  the  following  activities  meet  the  ordinary,  contemporary,  common meaning of “manufacturing” and, therefore, constitute “manufacturing” for ITAR purposes:
a) Use of any special tooling or equipment upgrading in order to improve the capability of assembled or repaired firearms;
b) Modifications to a firearm that change round capacity;
c) The  production  of  firearm  parts  (including,  but  not  limited  to,  barrels,  stocks, cylinders, breech mechanisms, triggers, silencers, or suppressors);
d) The  systemized  production  of  ammunition,  including  the  automated  loading  or reloading of ammunition;
e) The  machining  or  cutting  of  firearms,  e.g.,  threading  of  muzzles  or  muzzle  brake installation requiring machining, that results in an enhanced capability;
f) Rechambering firearms through machining, cutting, or drilling;
g) Chambering, cutting, or threading barrel blanks; and
h) Blueprinting firearms by machining the barrel.

3.Registration Required – Other than Manufacturing:
a) Assisting  foreign  persons  in  the  design,  development,  and  repair  of  firearms  may
constitute the  export  of a  defense  service  (see 22  CFR  §  120.9)  and  require ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC; and
b) Exporting a firearm or any other item on the USML requires ITAR registration with and authorization from DDTC.

Nothing is said about what registration fees might be.  If I'm reading this right, you can still attach a noise/flash suppressor to your .50 cal and paint it camouflage, engrave 'Fuck the Government' on it and make as much ammo as you want without being dinged as 'manufacturing.'
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:07:38 PM by Oniya »

Offline TheGlyphstone

So what we're learning is that right-wingers don't understand what an executive order is? Cause that doesn't seems to have any connection or overlap with the EO.

Offline Lustful Bride

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OKay most of this goes beyond my head. (Thank God I never decided to be a lawyer)

But I don't think this is that bad. I think this is a knee jerk (turned up to 11) and people are freaking out over something minor.

Quote
So what we're learning is that right-wingers don't understand what an executive order is? Cause that doesn't seems to have any connection or overlap with the EO.

Now now be nice, we both know the left is just as insane as the right, just painted blue instead of red.

I think its more the news groups getting people riled up and using high quality click bait.

EDIT: Though I will admit I have a bad habit of making myself look like a dumbass because I never do further research beyond checking a second website.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:24:44 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Oniya

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The one thing that might impact 'small manufacturers' is that cutting threads into a barrel is now considered 'manufacturing'.  If you have a pre-threaded barrel, you're set to screw on that silencer and have at.  If you don't have a pre-threaded barrel, you have to get one, which would probably mean going through a registered manufacturer.  It doesn't look like swapping out a pre-threaded barrel for a non-threaded barrel (as a 'replacement part') would require one to register, so the little guy could just lay in a supply of barrels and avoid the fee.

Offline TheGlyphstone

The extreme far left may be just as insane, but they're a lot more harmless overall - cuddled up in their hippy communes singing Kumbaya and insisting everyone can just get along and share everything equally in true unified socialist harmony, you can pretty much just ignore them. Whereas their equivalents on the extreme far right are the incite-armed-rebellion survivalist militia nuts like those jokers who took over a building in...Oregon, was it? Crazies be crazy, but I do think the right-fringe is more of a genuine danger to the safety of everyone left-and-center of them than the other way round.

Offline Lustful Bride

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The extreme far left may be just as insane, but they're a lot more harmless overall - cuddled up in their hippy communes singing Kumbaya and insisting everyone can just get along and share everything equally in true unified socialist harmony, you can pretty much just ignore them. Whereas their equivalents on the extreme far right are the incite-armed-rebellion survivalist militia nuts like those jokers who took over a building in...Oregon, was it? Crazies be crazy, but I do think the right-fringe is more of a genuine danger to the safety of everyone left-and-center of them than the other way round.

No the far left crazies are the ones that point a finger scream at you and shame you for hours on end and call you a racist, bigot, gun nut, religious fanatic etc etc etc for hours on end while preaching they are all about acceptance and love and tolerance.

As is said, both sides are pieces of shit and I only value them by how little of a pain in my life they are :P
I hate everyone equally. Though I will admit I hate everyone on E so much less its like I love all of you. E is the only place I don't instantly leave after five seconds. Its like a tiny bit of actual intelligence on the internet.

Also to hell with those Oregon nuts. Even other far right nuts were calling them out on their BS and I hope they never see the light of day again because its pieces of donkey dung like them that ruin everything for the rest of us and are why we are pretty much a joke now and why most people are gung ho on outright bans.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:42:13 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Oniya

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OKay most of this goes beyond my head. (Thank God I never decided to be a lawyer)

But I don't think this is that bad. I think this is a knee jerk (turned up to 11) and people are freaking out over something minor.

Now now be nice, we both know the left is just as insane as the right, just painted blue instead of red.

I think its more the news groups getting people riled up and using high quality click bait.

EDIT: Though I will admit I have a bad habit of making myself look like a dumbass because I never do further research beyond checking a second website.

High quality click-bait indeed.  And what we're seeing is that a) a sizeable portion of the country doesn't know the difference between an Executive Order and a statement from any other branch of government, and b) an intersecting portion of the country wants to blame Obama about anything that impacts their ability to get more/more powerful guns than they need.

Because this doesn't affect anyone's ability to get - hell, a 45 Magnum.  It does not affect anyone's ability to get a hunting rifle.  It doesn't even really affect anyone's ability to take over some National Park gift shop or shoot up some building in the neighborhood, when you get right down to it.  They'll just have to carry more clips, since you need a license to increase the round capacity of the weapon.

Offline Lustful Bride

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High quality click-bait indeed.  And what we're seeing is that a) a sizeable portion of the country doesn't know the difference between an Executive Order and a statement from any other branch of government, and b) an intersecting portion of the country wants to blame Obama about anything that impacts their ability to get more/more powerful guns than they need.

Because this doesn't affect anyone's ability to get - hell, a 45 Magnum.  It does not affect anyone's ability to get a hunting rifle.  It doesn't even really affect anyone's ability to take over some National Park gift shop or shoot up some building in the neighborhood, when you get right down to it.  They'll just have to carry more clips, since you need a license to increase the round capacity of the weapon.

To be fair though, most people don't pay attention until they feel it bothers them. I am fairly sure no one even watches C Span unless they are trying to get their grandparents to stop talking to them.

Offline TheGlyphstone

I think it's what feels like (but statistically probably isn't, intellectually) an increasingly frequent string of unstable psychos slaughtering civilians that is making people gung ho towards gun bans, rather than clowns like the Oregon bunch (whose grand casualty total was one of their own who refused to be arrested alive).

My feelings have, and continue to be, that the right needs to be the ones to propose gun legislation. Something moderate to mild along the lines of bills that have been previously proposed and shot down, like the one cited in that CNN article above that put gun shows under the same background-check requirements as gun stores (which is just common sense, the gun show loophole is amazingly stupid) and prohibiting the mentally ill or people with connections to terrorism from buying guns (which is also a good-sounding idea, though admittedly harder to police and more open to potential abuse). This would give the GOP's moderate wing a massive amount of good-faith credit (we're compromising, look!) and give them a bedrock of principle to stand against anything more extreme (we'll go this far but no further on principle).

 But right now the NRA has its hands around the throat of Congress and its head up the asses of the gun manufacturers, stifling any attempts at legislation. Meanwhile, every so often a deranged lunatic will shoot up a school or club or office building or something, and public outrage will continue to fester and grow at Congress's inability to 'do something', giving the far-left endless ammunition, pun intended and apologized for, to push their own harsher restrictions.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:59:32 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Oniya

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I think I've found where 'Executive Order' kinda, sorta, tangentially comes into this. '22 U.S.C. 2778 of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) provides the authority to control the export of defense articles and services, and charges the President to exercise this authority. Executive Order 11958, as amended, delegated this statutory authority to the Secretary of State. (The ITAR, elsewhere on this web site, implements this authority.) '

Offline TheGlyphstone

But...11958 was issued by Gerald Ford. The last time it was amended or altered was 12660, under Ronald Reagan.

Now I'm even more confused. How does Obama's order affect them, AECA, or ITAR?