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Author Topic: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)  (Read 14840 times)

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Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #350 on: December 03, 2015, 07:01:38 PM »
I disagree with this (assuming I read it correctly). I can tell you that a hell of a LOT of US citizens would flat out not comply with a gun ban. I certainly would not, and I can bet that most of the population of my state and large sections of the populations of the states surrounding Idaho would ignore such a ruling/action by the feds. I honestly think it would be the country as a whole, especially west of the Mississippi that would ignore the ban/repeal of the 2nd. And the government would not be able to do a damned thing about it; not to mention that the politicians that voted for this would almost certainly lose their seats in the next elections. Assuming they were not recalled and replaced before that. Rights should always be added to, not removed.

  In this hypothetical situation of the 2nd amendment being repelled the politicians are either doing it because they have popular support to do so or the democratic process has been subverted to the point that losing their seats/being recalled isn;t an issue (oh and if armed revolt is your reaction to this, my previous point about professional militarizes vs. armed civilians stands).

  This attitude really bothers me. I believe in gun control, but if hypothetical the US did enact strict gun control laws and there were provably more deaths as a result, I would change my chance. Pro-2nd amendment people though seem almost universally unwilling to acknowledge even a hypothetical scenario in which they would give up their guns, which I find to be an unhealthy attitude to have.

  Anyway, this discussion is becoming a bit prolonged. Do you want to switch to the gun control thread, or have one last post and then I'll both leave it?

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #351 on: December 03, 2015, 07:21:38 PM »
At this point, the more gun vs. anti gun arguments I see...the less I begin to care. Because neither side will ever open up for a real dialogue, instead settling for jumping up and down screaming and throwing tantrums, its why nothing ever gets done anymore. and people dance around and get offended like puppets and do whatever their party says and wont move until they get 100% of what they want.

I have no hope that an actual intelligent compromise could ever be reached.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 07:23:41 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #352 on: December 03, 2015, 07:42:33 PM »
At this point, the more gun vs. anti gun arguments I see...the less I begin to care. Because neither side will ever open up for a real dialogue, instead settling for jumping up and down screaming and throwing tantrums, its why nothing ever gets done anymore. and people dance around and get offended like puppets and do whatever their party says and wont move until they get 100% of what they want.

I have no hope that an actual intelligent compromise could ever be reached.

  The problem is the two groups don't really have much way of compromising. How do you find common group between "we need better gun control laws" and "guns aren't the problem, we need to be focusing on social issues"? There's no intelligent compromise to be had between those two views because they are looking at the problem too differently.

  Or maybe there is a compromise between the two stances, and I'm just missing it.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #353 on: December 03, 2015, 08:24:07 PM »
At this point, the more gun vs. anti gun arguments I see...the less I begin to care. Because neither side will ever open up for a real dialogue

Ugh. Miss me with the "both sides are at fault" faux-balance shite. "Both sides" aren't having a problem opening up. "Both sides" showed up for a real dialogue decades ago, and then the facts didn't favour the conservative side and the gun manufacturers and most of their arguments fell apart on the merits of real-world data, and so they made up a fantasy world with their own set of facts and demanded everybody else "discuss" those with them and act as if they were real (even going so far as to do things like try to suppress research into real-world gun violence). So after that point (reached long, long ago on gun control, like in the Nineties) it makes sense that fewer and fewer people would be interested in "discussing" their made-up fantasy world with them, because that is dishonest and stupid and a massive waste of everyone's time. You need two sides willing to engage in good faith to have a genuine dialogue.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #354 on: December 03, 2015, 08:28:26 PM »
Ugh. Miss me with the "both sides are at fault" faux-balance shite. "Both sides" aren't having a problem opening up. "Both sides" showed up for a real dialogue decades ago, and then the facts didn't favour the conservative side and the gun manufacturers and most of their arguments fell apart on the merits of real-world data, and so they made up a fantasy world with their own set of facts and demanded everybody else "discuss" those with them and act as if they were real (even going so far as to do things like try to suppress research into real-world gun violence). So after that point (reached long, long ago on gun control, like in the Nineties) it makes sense that fewer and fewer people would be interested in "discussing" their made-up fantasy world with them, because that is dishonest and stupid and a massive waste of everyone's time. You need two sides willing to engage in good faith to have a genuine dialogue.

I don't even care anymore man :/ if the feds show up to collect my gun i'l just hand over everything I have without a fight and pray I don't get raped/robbed while at home for the rest of my life. 

If they don't I will still be following every law to the letter because that's how I am. I will go where the society goes, even if im being dragged by my feet with it.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 08:31:54 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #355 on: December 03, 2015, 08:33:06 PM »
Hold on.  This isn't black or white.  There are many different positions here:
  • There are those who want no gun control laws of any kind whatsoever.
  • There are those who want very limited gun control laws.
  • There are those that want very restrictive gun control laws.
  • There are those that want to ban private gun ownership.
We shouldn't pretend that only groups 1 and 4 exist.  That's not true, even looking at the posts people have made on this site.  There are pro-gun rights folks who have stated they would support a law that requires gun show sales to comply with the same rules as in-store sales.  Similarly, some folks have agreed that people on the terrorist watch lists shouldn't be allowed to buy guns. 

Of course there are others who disagree with the above, but let's stop lumping everyone into just the unlimited-gun-rights and no-guns-for-anyone camps.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #356 on: December 03, 2015, 08:42:50 PM »
I don't even care anymore man :/ if the feds show up to collect my gun i'l just hand over everything I have without a fight and pray I don't get raped/robbed while at home for the rest of my life.

  Its not as if guns have been helping keep rape numbers down in the USA. Most European countries have a similar rate, a few are lower and one is higher. Guns don't appear to be the answer. Better education on consent, better public understanding of the crime and making sure police and courts are properly equipped to handle such investigations is more likely the answer.

Offline Cyrano Johnson

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #357 on: December 03, 2015, 08:43:17 PM »
Hold on.  This isn't black or white.  There are many different positions here

True, but for practical purposes in any gun control debate in the States there is a) the side that reflexively defends whatever load of horse manure the NRA is currently serving and pretends everyone with a variant position wants them raped and killed in their beds for want of an assault weapon, and b) basically everyone else, from minimalist regulators on up to maximalist ban advocates. Now, b) certainly includes a number of different positions among whom there can be reasonable and honest debate. But there is no sense pretending that a) is interested in reasonable debate with any of b)'s constituents. a)'s whole posture is about culture war, not debate. It's important to forthrightly recognize this and to call it exactly what it is.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2015, 08:44:28 PM by Cyrano Johnson »

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #358 on: December 03, 2015, 09:01:10 PM »
  Its not as if guns have been helping keep rape numbers down in the USA. Most European countries have a similar rate, a few are lower and one is higher. Guns don't appear to be the answer. Better education on consent, better public understanding of the crime and making sure police and courts are properly equipped to handle such investigations is more likely the answer.

Yeah but it doesn't hurt my chance either... i know id never win if i had to fight an attacker with my bare hands and a tazer gets 1 shot while pepper spray require close contact with the attacker...*shrug*

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #359 on: December 04, 2015, 10:40:55 AM »
So the NRA's argument that California's "extremely strict" gun law failed to prohibit the San Bernardino actually proves the opposite to be true.

The AR-15 style weapons used by the shooters were not covered by that law because those weapns were designed to use a loophole based on how the ammo is loaded.  Obviously, if that loophole was closed--i.e., if the law was stricter--then those guns could have been blocked.

Conclusion: the NRA just proved that California's gun law should be more restrictive.


Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #360 on: December 04, 2015, 10:50:26 AM »
  Its not as if guns have been helping keep rape numbers down in the USA. Most European countries have a similar rate, a few are lower and one is higher. Guns don't appear to be the answer. Better education on consent, better public understanding of the crime and making sure police and courts are properly equipped to handle such investigations is more likely the answer.


I'm not going to get into a wider argument about rape and courtrooms here, but if the reference of "one is higher" is Sweden, I suggest this is more to do with the differences as to what legally counts as rape, what kind of actions and circumstances can be filed as rape - and how willing the police and prosecutors are to pull through with those suspicions - than with people being so much more eager to assault other people. In many countries - like Italy, Russia and much of eastern Europe, there can be strong pressure (economical, moral, family pressure) on women not to file charges or to retract charges and testimonies - especially if it's about something that took place within a marriage or a relationship. And the scope of rape as a crime within the law is more narrow in many countries than it is in Sweden and some other northern European countries.

Most countries in Europe (except the UK and Ireland) having a civil law system, if it's to count as actionable as rape the act has to fit within the definitions set out in the code of law or it's not likely to go far in a trial...so if the law in a country places high demands on the act to make it count, then a "mid-level sexual assault" or a "domestic bedroom demand for sex" effectively won't float in the courtroom or even lead to any charges being brought to court, and people are going to be aware of roughtly what works in their country, what kind of things are meaningful to file as rape (or assault).

***

Back to the main topic: the news outlets are now saying the couple in San Bernardino had stockpiled enough munitions and explosives to kill hundreds of people quickly if they had had some time and managed to corner enough people. Remember, they could have gone on to some other place and continued the assault.  Maybe the police can't find all the nutjobs or militants before those people would act - of course they can't - but some measure of control of who gets to hold a gun (licensing and background checks) would at least make it easier for the police to focus on many of the seriously dangerous people, and make it harder for some other extreme nutjobs or people with an alerting background to get to acquire guns. That's just common sense, and the general availability of guns everywhere does affect this.

And please don't tell me that if the people at the Christmas reunion party had brought their own guns, then very few people had been killed except those two. Nobody - well, very few people - brings a gun around to every place where they will be meeting up with fellow workers or having some fun on the town. And especially not a heavy-duty firearm that's strong enough to force down a guy with an assault rifle and a handbag full of bombs or something.  :-(
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 11:10:55 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Skynet

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #361 on: December 04, 2015, 01:26:35 PM »
Now bulletproof blankets for kids to use doing school shootings are for sale now.

It's sad to say that things came to this, but almost every single week I keep hearing about mass shootings in the US.

Sure, many people talk about reform or doing something, but politicians and the NRA keep shooting things down.  The latter even's going so far as to try and allow people on the terrorism watch list the ability to buy weapons without any background checks.

It may not be popular to say among my US peers, but I feel as if most Americans are okay with this.  Not as in they see the increasing body count as good in any way, but rather they view it as an acceptable price to pay in order to "guard against government tyranny."  In spite of the fact that certain US policies have been bordering tyrannical at points even when gun control laws were very lax; or that a lot of the same organizations who say they're for gun rights tend to also be for restricting the rights of minority groups.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2015, 01:28:11 PM by Skynet »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #362 on: December 04, 2015, 01:42:51 PM »
I think it's as much that while most Americans (excluding the NRA nuts in Liztec's Group A) aren't okay with it, the problem is that as Cycle points out, the 'opposition' is not a united front. They have a very wide range of how much, if any, new legislation or regulation or restriction is acceptable, and while they can agree on the principle, the specifics and details can't get unified support, which lets the gun-nut minority dictate the course of action; they don't outnumber any of the other groups, but they are unified and extremely loud, to the point of drowning out any other voices and giving that perception that "most" Americans are okay with this.

Offline Tairis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #363 on: December 04, 2015, 06:58:44 PM »

Back to the main topic: the news outlets are now saying the couple in San Bernardino had stockpiled enough munitions and explosives to kill hundreds of people quickly if they had had some time and managed to corner enough people. Remember, they could have gone on to some other place and continued the assault.  Maybe the police can't find all the nutjobs or militants before those people would act - of course they can't - but some measure of control of who gets to hold a gun (licensing and background checks) would at least make it easier for the police to focus on many of the seriously dangerous people, and make it harder for some other extreme nutjobs or people with an alerting background to get to acquire guns. That's just common sense, and the general availability of guns everywhere does affect this.

Wouldn't have helped in this case, based upon what's been released even if we had the theorized perfect background check system where it reviews all medical records, US government holds, etc? They were clean. Even the FBI has stated they were never even examined as terrorist threats.

Quote
And please don't tell me that if the people at the Christmas reunion party had brought their own guns, then very few people had been killed except those two. Nobody - well, very few people - brings a gun around to every place where they will be meeting up with fellow workers or having some fun on the town. And especially not a heavy-duty firearm that's strong enough to force down a guy with an assault rifle and a handbag full of bombs or something.  :-(

There's really nothing you can do if you're caught at the exact wrong moment by anyone. If you literally don't suspect anything at all you don't have anything to react to. Generally when people get to play hero is when they're a) tipped off in advance by suspicious behavior or b) the wacko in question isn't good at what they're doing and someone is close by such as with the soldiers at the train station in France.

I would say that there is a fundamental misunderstanding about serious concealed carry holders, though. Personally? I absolutely would have been armed in that scenario because to me its simply another part of what I carry every day. Pocket knife, phone, wallet, keys, multitool, gun. Would it have mattered? Who knows. Its really luck of the draw at that point. If you're one of the first people hit when someone comes in the door? Nothing you can do. If you're not and you have the presence of mind (and that really is the important part since most people are going to freeze) then maybe you could have changed something.

But unfortunately like all things its a gray area. In the NRA's version of events everyone with a gun is a trained marksman with quick draw reflexes. In the Brady Campaign's version everyone with a gun is Barney, fumbling and dropping, about to kill their entire family at every moment.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #364 on: December 04, 2015, 07:35:01 PM »
The NRA's version of the average gun owner.


The Brady Campaign's version of the average gun owner.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #365 on: December 06, 2015, 08:37:02 PM »
So the NRA's argument that California's "extremely strict" gun law failed to prohibit the San Bernardino actually proves the opposite to be true.

The AR-15 style weapons used by the shooters were not covered by that law because those weapns were designed to use a loophole based on how the ammo is loaded.  Obviously, if that loophole was closed--i.e., if the law was stricter--then those guns could have been blocked.

Conclusion: the NRA just proved that California's gun law should be more restrictive.

My conclusion is that the gun laws should be written by people who know and understand guns to make something better.

Or try and negotiate with the people and not the big, money hungry corporations that don't give a shit about people and only want more money. 
Try and see what the people feel would be good compromises.

Example
1: No ARs with semi or full auto.

2: No High Cap mags or mags beyond 10 rounds. No armor piercing ammo.

3: IF you're gonna have a "no gun zone" Have it with more security since those areas tend to be targeted more.

4:If youre gonna be a gun owner you lose the right if you commit a felony or end up on the FBI watchlist and your weapon will be confiscated till you can be proven to not be a threat. If you are found innocent it will all be given back to you.

5: No hollow Point rounds for handguns.

This is all stuff id personally be okay with giving up. Hell id even go with "No semi autos for handguns" but you know im just the person that politicians and business men hate the most, someone who actually wants compromise and not toddler level tantrums.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #366 on: December 06, 2015, 09:33:31 PM »
All that sounds really reasonable to me.  If only Congress would listen.


Offline Darwishi

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #367 on: December 06, 2015, 10:34:15 PM »
Thing is, it doesn't sound reasonable to me.  Which is most of the problem.  Everyone has a different opinion of what "reasonable" gun laws would be.

Offline Kythia

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #368 on: December 06, 2015, 11:08:35 PM »
Thing is, it doesn't sound reasonable to me.  Which is most of the problem.  Everyone has a different opinion of what "reasonable" gun laws would be.

None of those sound reasonable? Or are there specific ones you object to and others that sound ok?

Offline Tairis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #369 on: December 07, 2015, 09:10:37 AM »
Just as an example from my end?

Example
1: No ARs with semi or full auto.

1) What is an 'assault rifle'? What are you calling an assault rifle?
2) Fully automatic weapons have never been made illegal, they're just expensive, and there has literally never in all of US history, been one of those legally owned guns used in a crime. So what's the logic of banning them?

Quote
2: No High Cap mags or mags beyond 10 rounds. No armor piercing ammo.

Armor piercing ammo is also expensive and of limited legality. It's also never been used in a mass shooting that I'm aware of. In general though its a moot point because its something thats already restricted.

Hi capacity magazines have nothing to do with mass shootings. There are a list of the many many spree killers and most of them? Just used regular guns with regular capacity magazines because reloading is honestly a very simple process. In some cases, like the Colorado shooting that made everyone go crazy because he had a 100 round magazine, that magazine jammed with 1/3 of his rounds unfired. If he'd been using standard magazines he likely could have kept shooting.

Quote
3: IF you're gonna have a "no gun zone" Have it with more security since those areas tend to be targeted more.

This would work, but the problem is where do you get the money? Real gun free zones like federal buildings etc? You're talking about limited access buildings with armed security and metal detectors. So basically every building you're going to make a gun free zone is going to cost you hundreds of thousands of initial cost and another 100 grand a year to employ security.
 
Quote
4:If youre gonna be a gun owner you lose the right if you commit a felony or end up on the FBI watchlist and your weapon will be confiscated till you can be proven to not be a threat. If you are found innocent it will all be given back to you.

Which... is already exactly how the law works when it comes to felonies.

Quote
5: No hollow Point rounds for handguns.

This is all stuff id personally be okay with giving up. Hell id even go with "No semi autos for handguns" but you know im just the person that politicians and business men hate the most, someone who actually wants compromise and not toddler level tantrums.

No hollow points? Once again I have to ask: why? What is the actual, logical reasoning behind banning hollow point rounds other than 'housewives hear about them on dateline and they sound scary'?

You don't want cops and civilians using full metal jacket rounds. See the view below for an example, but there's a very good reason all cops use hollow points. It does more damage to your target, but more importantly it stops you from killing bystandards when your full metal jacket round over penetrates and hits someone or something behind what you're shooting. Unlike Hollywood even FMJ pistol rounds are fully capable of punching through a human body and leaving with enough force to kill someone on the other side.

https://youtu.be/N8hbkXPdlks?t=205

All in all its always the same story. People want to ban things because banning things feels like 'doing something'. Except banning things is pointless when you cannot enact a blanket ban. Telling a crazy person they can't have 11 round magazines is not going to stop a spree killer. The only way to stop a spree killer is to focus on never letting them get a gun in the first place.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2015, 09:13:54 AM by Tairis »

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #370 on: December 07, 2015, 09:44:26 AM »
The only way to stop a spree killer is to focus on never letting them get a gun in the first place.

How?

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #371 on: December 07, 2015, 10:03:00 AM »
How?

By banning all handguns countrywide?  ;D


Offline Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #372 on: December 07, 2015, 10:16:19 AM »
I was actually hoping for a serious answer.  How do we keep the guns out of the hands of spree killers?  Every method of screening currently in place doesn't seem to be doing it.  Any suggestions for improving/focusing those screening methods gets nipped in the bud by some group or other.  I'm not a gun owner, but I don't think banning is necessary either.  I believe in the concept of safe and sane gun ownership, and many of the gun-owners I've spoken to here on E seem to fall into that category.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #373 on: December 07, 2015, 10:23:47 AM »
I was actually hoping for a serious answer.  How do we keep the guns out of the hands of spree killers?  Every method of screening currently in place doesn't seem to be doing it.  Any suggestions for improving/focusing those screening methods gets nipped in the bud by some group or other.  I'm not a gun owner, but I don't think banning is necessary either.  I believe in the concept of safe and sane gun ownership, and many of the gun-owners I've spoken to here on E seem to fall into that category.

Yeah, sorry, but that was a softball.  I had to hit it.  ;D

And I agree.  It'd be nice to hear folks propose solutions like Lustful Bride did, instead of just saying why X or Y is unacceptable.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #374 on: December 07, 2015, 10:35:31 AM »
*shrugs* I am unsure of what to say now. :/......im just gonna sit in the corner. I'm not ready to play with the big kids in this game yet. @3@