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Author Topic: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)  (Read 14989 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #300 on: October 28, 2015, 10:59:56 PM »
I agree.  Newsflash:  If both sides are described as 'screaming', neither one is being lauded over the other - whether or not they are different genders, races, or rival kindergarten classes.

Offline Cycle


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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #302 on: November 01, 2015, 06:41:29 PM »
American Gun Law needs to be tighter, or this sorta shit will keep happening to you. It's just a fact.

As a gun owner I agree. There are many people out there who should not be allowed anywhere near a weapon. Hell id compromise to give up semi autos for bigger caliber weapons, high cap mags and etc. But that would require an intelligent conversation with politicians who don't care enough to actually learn/research enough about guns and the culture to make proper laws*, and who are too busy being on their high horse to actually do something as plebian as 'Compromise'.  :P

*Example of why AWB (At least the old 2013 version) was a joke.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

As dad said if you want to hate something you must first understand it. Pfftt but who am I to question the silver spoons up on capitol hill? :P
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 06:43:58 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #303 on: November 01, 2015, 06:56:19 PM »
Not to make unnecessary light of the topic, but Americans do have a tradition of being somewhat irrational with regards to things we consider our 'rights' - something an Englishman, in particular, should be aware of. ;D

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #304 on: November 01, 2015, 07:03:58 PM »
I agree....but the thing is, after looking heavily into these stats, I have to say that I'm now a supporter of just saying "You're not allowed a concealable weapon."

eehhh *moves hands in air as if to weight them* I am on the fence on that. I would like to see some intelligent conversation and stuff on that before I can really make a decision. Cause it actually does help people sometimes.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/police-concealed-carry-license-holder-kills-gunman/ar-BBmH2ym?li=BBieTUX&ocid=iehp

http://controversialtimes.com/news/remember-this-sc-concealed-carrier-stops-mass-shooting-during-church-service-zero-casualties/

Plus I think this is a state matter not 100% federal government.


Not to make unnecessary light of the topic, but Americans do have a tradition of being somewhat irrational with regards to things we consider our 'rights' - something an Englishman, in particular, should be aware of. ;D

I remember a saying I once heard in a gunstore from a vet who came back from the middle east, he was chatting with the guys and my dad there and im paraphrasing here.

"If given a choice between having to actually use my guns to protect my rights or fight some invaders, and giving them up for a world where such a situation would never happen and the police guarantee my safety 100% of the time. I'd give em up. but since that will never happen they wont take em from me." He might have said it better but this is as best as I can remember him saying it.

Edit: Added in second link since one is never enough :P
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 07:14:45 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #305 on: November 01, 2015, 07:11:42 PM »
Bobbies are certainly more stylish, at least.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #306 on: November 01, 2015, 07:16:40 PM »
Well....in that case, if the gun laws had been tighter, the gunman wouldn't have had the firearm in the first place, so a brave bystander wouldn't have been needed. Remember, if handguns have been banned, the gunman likely wouldn't have had a handgun either, so the whole thing would have been moot. :P

Or he would have attacked the place with a knife since mass stabbings are also a thing as well. As well as people attacking places with hatchets, machetes, axes. *shrug* :/

Hell if a madman is really dead set on killing he might just make a homemade bomb. Killers don't care how its done, they just want the death and chaos.

Oh Gods, now I'm imagining a Bobby Catwalk. I hope you're proud of yourself. -__-


That does not arouse me in any way.....>3>........ <3<....yyeaahhhh
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 07:20:43 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #307 on: November 01, 2015, 07:24:43 PM »
Or he would have attacked the place with a knife since mass stabbings are also a thing as well. As well as people attacking places with hatchets, machetes, axes. *shrug* :/

 

That does not arouse me in any way.....>3>........ <3<....yyeaahhhh

They are vanishingly rare in comparison, though. An entirely unscientific Google search turns up one confirmed public 'mass stabbing' - at a Franklin High school in 2014, where 22 were injured and no one died. Plus an incident in China that killed 29, but that was a multi-attacker, organized terrorist attack of some kind rather than the 'lone gunknifeman' situation we're discussing. One page I found from 2013 claims the FBI has logged 7 'mass stabbing incidents' involving 4+ fatalities since 1901.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #308 on: November 01, 2015, 07:32:29 PM »
They are vanishingly rare in comparison, though. An entirely unscientific Google search turns up one confirmed public 'mass stabbing' - at a Franklin High school in 2014, where 22 were injured and no one died. Plus an incident in China that killed 29, but that was a multi-attacker, organized terrorist attack of some kind rather than the 'lone gunknifeman' situation we're discussing. One page I found from 2013 claims the FBI has logged 7 'mass stabbing incidents' involving 4+ fatalities since 1901.

eh but then they would possibly increase. With no guns to use to kill then they will use other means. If someone really wants to kill people the means aren't important, just the death.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #309 on: November 01, 2015, 07:45:58 PM »
It's all about making it as difficult for them as possible.

And that's why I want a gun to protect myself. If someone wants to rape me or kill me I will not make it easy for them in the slightest.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #310 on: November 01, 2015, 07:46:56 PM »
eh but then they would possibly increase. With no guns to use to kill then they will use other means. If someone really wants to kill people the means aren't important, just the death.

The casualties would be much lower, though - it's frankly far harder to kill multiple people with a melee weapon - both because it will take multiple hits to seriously injure or kill someone unless you are very lucky, and because on top of that your victim and other potential victims can run away while you are attacking your first target. They might want to kill people, and the number of attempted incidents would certainly go up to some degree, but the total overall would be almost guaranteed to drop noticeably....knives simply aren't as lethal as guns. If they were, guns wouldn't have replaced them as the go-to method of war/murder.


The highest death toll I can find on a mass stabbing is a Chinese one where 28 people were killed by a guy with a knife, which was big news partly because the figure was surprisingly high for a knife.



There were also 8 attackers in that incident, not 1. And four of them apparently died during the incident itself.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #311 on: November 01, 2015, 07:53:34 PM »
To be fair, your edited data isn't a very good comparison - you would need to contrast gun vs. knife crimes in the UK before and after the Dunblane Massacre and equivocate over to equivalent US statistics, rather than a cross-national comparison.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #312 on: November 01, 2015, 08:05:14 PM »
Eh you boith have a point, but that's why I want intelligent negotiation and compromise on this. But with the idiots in both political parties up in DC I might as well be asking for a magic unicorn.  ::)

And I can say that because dad works Capitol Police and has sooo many depressing stories. Like a congressman (who will go unnamed) who pulled rank on my dad's guys when they were inspecting a suspicious package and all because he wanted to take his precious purebred outside. And they were telling him to stay in his office.

I would swear on this upon a stack of bibles but I don't want the IRS to somehow end up giving me an audit X3
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 08:07:22 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #313 on: November 01, 2015, 11:17:38 PM »
I'm pretty sure politicians being idiots is something we can all agree on regardless of nationality.

Offline Tairis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #314 on: November 01, 2015, 11:27:53 PM »
Yea, because I want to live in a country that has reached this level of absurdity:



The simple fact of the matter is that, like every time this argument comes up, we're comparing apples to oranges. People need to stop pretending anything the UK or any European does has any correlation of the United States.

The UK is nothing like the US. Your country is smaller than a few of our states. You have a demographic that is 92% white with a relatively homogeneous culture while the US is still trying and frankly failing to pull of the whole 'melting pot' idea we've been touting for decades. You have a country that was effectively 'civilized' centuries ago while the United States culturally is less than century and a half removed from a time period wherein a massive portion of the country's access to law enforcement was measured in days not minutes, and even now has large areas of the country where it would take an hour or more for any kind of assistance to arrive. Where we also have a firearm ownership rate that eclipses the UK even before strict laws were put in place.

Not to mention the fact that murder rates in various countries that have enacted widespread gun bans? Funnily enough they didn't decrease in proportion. England's murder rate went up for a few years afterwards and then decreased in the mid 2000s pretty much on trend with the rest of the civilized world. The United State's murder rate has also been on a decline since its peak in the 80s.

Want to stop mass shootings? Sure, take away all the guns. I won't argue that no access to guns means no mass shootings. But if you want to argue that taking away firearms in general makes a country safer? The facts don't seem to bear that out. Less people do seem to get shot but seems like roughly the same

The United States as a grab bag of cultural problems that are going to take a long time to resolve, if they ever are. Because while everyone wants to talk about how Europe did this or that they ignore the fact that the United States isn't really one country. We're 50 small countries that work together and each State can very wildly. The District of Columbia (which ironically had THE strictest gun control of any place in the country prior to the Supreme Court decision) had a higher per capita murder rate than most of Africa for years and only now is down to a murder rate that isn't in the 20s.

So in the end if my choice is trust the government to protect me or keep my guns and rely on myself? I'm going to go with Lustful Bride's approach. I'm going to take responsibility for protecting myself and my person.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2015, 11:29:01 PM by Tairis »

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #315 on: November 02, 2015, 12:21:24 AM »

The District of Columbia (which ironically had THE strictest gun control of any place in the country prior to the Supreme Court decision) had a higher per capita murder rate than most of Africa for years and only now is down to a murder rate that isn't in the 20s.

There's people in downtown DC that don't give as shit that handguns are banned or that its the nations capitol. No officer will go alone there at night, fuck some wont even go alone in the day.

Its honestly not pretty which is such a shame.

I will keep my guns but I will still obey the law until the day they break down my door and try and snatch them from my hands. In that case il just bury them in the backyard in a metal box wrapped in plastic. :P
« Last Edit: November 02, 2015, 12:23:33 AM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #316 on: November 02, 2015, 12:47:47 AM »
agreed with you two, I think it's more the lessons about such weapons people are being taught, combined with the abhorant state of mental health and the proliferation of conspiracy crazyness in recent years such as that hullabloo texas made about Operation Jade Helm.
it seems like people are buying into to crazy bullshit more than they used to.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #317 on: November 02, 2015, 01:19:09 AM »
agreed with you two, I think it's more the lessons about such weapons people are being taught, combined with the abhorant state of mental health and the proliferation of conspiracy crazyness in recent years such as that hullabloo texas made about Operation Jade Helm.
it seems like people are buying into to crazy bullshit more than they used to.

I kind of blame the Internet and the Media for that.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #318 on: November 02, 2015, 01:49:48 AM »
I kind of blame the Internet and the Media for that.

right, I think this is bigger than simply "OMG too many GUNS" or "OMG BUY MOAR GUNS FOR FREEDOM!" there's a much more serious problem going on.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #319 on: November 02, 2015, 02:39:35 AM »
I think Texans are just insane.

Offline Zakharra

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #320 on: November 02, 2015, 11:59:25 AM »
You don't want to have your guns banned. Whilst I think that's probably the best way to curtail gun violence, I know you Americans will never give up your guns. So instead, why exactly are you opposed to greater gun control? Besides the fact that it's your "right" to own and carry around a deadly weapon, of course.

 I can answer that somewhat. The reason many gun owners do oppose greater gun control is that a lot of anti-gun people do want to remove all guns. They would be more than happy to confiscate any and all firearms from the citizens, even the ones who use them responsibly (which is the vast majority). As some have noted, some of the cities in the US that had the most restrictive gun laws have had the highest murder rate with firearms (or murder rate period), such as Washington DC, Detroit, Chicago and so on. It''s also not helped when the anti-gun people use the laws that get enacted to confiscate firearms. That happened in NYC. There was a law enacted that required all firearms to be registered. So many people did do just that. Then NYC used that list to confiscate a bunch of them.

 Simply put, most of the gun owners don't trust the anti-gun people any farther than they can throw them because the trend is, give them an inch and they will take that mile. Whether than is implied or intended, it's clear that many gun control people do want to remove all firearms from legal citizens. That leaves little room for negotiations.

Offline eBadger

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #321 on: November 02, 2015, 04:58:28 PM »
whilst I agree that the UK socially is somewhat more "advanced" than the USA - for example, homosexuality isn't a big issue over here in most areas, the country is rather more secular and Creationism is largely a dead duck over here

On the other hand, recording spanking, fisting or female ejaculation is illegal, so I'm underwhelmed by your advanced morality and personal freedom.   

I should also point out that homosexuality is downright trendy in the US. 

Plus, that picture is a complete and utter strawman.

Slippery slope fallacy, but yeah.  Our butter knives aren't being threatened. 

there are a lot of people who think it's their "right" to own a deadly weapon.

Just to clarify for you, because your constant use of quotes makes you look a bit "silly": it is not thought to be a right, it very specifically is one, as expressed in the 2nd Amendment, one of the ten that form the Bill of Rights.  Whether it should remain a right, and to what extent, is a valid question.  But talking about the "right" to own a gun sounds as ridiculous as talking about "mass shootings" instead of mass shootings. 

Their right not to be shot by a madman trumps your right to have a cool, shiny toy, and if tighter gun control can save their lives - which it can - I don't see a good reason not to tighten gun laws.

...It seems that your primary argument is "It's mah right!"

This is the point where you're going to lose every gun supporter, because you very obviously don't see the other side of the argument.  It is not a right to a toy; it is a right to self defense.  You will have a much better conversation about the issue if you start using that line instead.  I do not own a toy: a own a way to defend myself and my family from someone else with a gun (or a knife, or a stick).  Does your fear incited by the media frenzy over a few isolated incidents trump their right to protection?

And if you don't trust your government to protect you....well, I'm sorry.

Thanks?

Well, as I said....I don't care what your constitution says.

We sure do. 

At least in the UK, murder rates are at their lowest since 1978

Super!  We're doing great over here, too.  The violent crime rate has halved in the last twenty years.  In schools, too: I never feared being shot in high school, but as it turns out my chances were twice what they are today. 

Of course, now it's middle class white kids. 

If it keeps people safe and happy and does more good than harm, I don't see why we shouldn't try and push for tighter gun control in the USA.
...
limit access to certain types of weapons, etc etc.

Well, for instance, banning 'certain types of weapons' is the most common call for legislation, primarily aimed at automatic weapons (or firearms that people can't distinguish from them).  Automatic weapons are available to the public, but are highly regulated; there are about 240,000 licensed.  Since 1938 (when restrictions began) legal ones have killed two people in the US.  That's not per-year: that's total.  I mentioned before that vending machines are more dangerous. 

So basically, automatic weapons are a shining example that regulation WORKS.  We can do it, and we can make it safe.  The response to that success is not, however, the promised 'nobody wants to take away your gun': it's very much the opposite. 

A similar situation arises with assault weapons, which are not particularly favored by criminals nor widely used in killings or violent crime. 

I'm very pro-regulation.  But I'm also pro-gun ownership, and it's very hard to claim that any attempts at regulation in the last 30 years have been focused on reducing violent crime while ensuring responsible citizens maintain a right to self defense. 

Offline eBadger

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #322 on: November 02, 2015, 06:45:59 PM »
And if guns were banned, the attacker wouldn't have a gun either, most likely.

This is one of the key "the US isn't the UK" moments.  England has centuries of precedent of limiting access to weaponry.  When firearms were invented, England was well regulated and thoroughly governed by a continuing government.  It's a small area with the ability to quickly obtain access to legal support: it's been centuries since anyone in England lived more than a day's walk from the law. 

Enter the history of the US.  We're a nation whose government is based on distrust of government.  I won't justify all the conflicts and methods of our expansion, but the threat of violence was frequent and self protection was a clear need.  Settlements and homesteads spread across vast areas and a heavy emphasis on self reliance until, realistically, about 70 years ago.  This attitude therefore remains ingrained; we are not a nation of people willing to just trust that our government will protect us. 

It also means that, from the start, we have been a heavily armed nation.  There has been a vast national stockpile for hundreds of years, and that remains true today.  Unlike the UK, banning firearms will not get rid of them for a very long time: it will, instead, mean that only the criminals have them.  With the numbers available, that is a much more serious issue here than it ever was in Europe, where bans started with crossbows. 

First, anger and disgust, not fear.

Your anger and disgust definitely aren't worth more than my family's protection. 

Second, shootings are hardly isolated incidents in the USA. Every year in the USA, about 30 - 35,000 people die from gun violence. That's about 2,708 per month. America has a mass shooting at least once every couple of months...it's hardly an isolated incident.

I don't have any direct experience or know anyone involved in a shooting, nor does anyone I know.  In a nation as large as the US, the numbers you cite are, in fact, rather isolated.  Still too many, of course; but scale has to be taken into account. 

Crime rates in the Western World are dropping, I'm just saying that gun violence is much higher in the States than most other 1st World Countries.

And that's a valid issue.  But the fact that violent crime rates have dropped dramatically and in line with countries that ban guns, despite reduced national regulation, has a lot of implications as well. 

Well, it's a sticky subject to be sure, but I'm more than willing to say "look, I think guns should be mostly banned outright, but that isn't gonna happen, so how do we meet halfway?" The problem is that a lot of people seem to be unwilling to budge from their "The government isn't gonna take my guns away from me!" stance, and a lot of people seem to hold the opinion that any attempt at regulation is infringing on their rights, which makes the discussion instantly a lot more difficult.

IMHO there hasn't been much in that halfway stance to budge toward.  However, surveys I've seen indicate that the majority of gun owners DO favor some type of increased regulation. 

Offline Tairis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #323 on: November 02, 2015, 06:55:50 PM »
If you read my previous posts in the thread I'm very much in favor of regulation, but the kind that makes sense. Universal background checks, reasonable waiting periods, certifications.

Not the kind inspired by fear which is exactly the point I was making with the image of the knife. It doesn't matter whether its being enforced. That regulation actually exists. Your government has decided that they are so governed by fear of anything bad ever happening that you can be carded for buying a kitchen knife. You have hyper-regulated the first tool ever constructed by humanity.

UK Murder Rates from 1990 to 2011 per Capita (taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_by_decade
1.09 1.22 1.13 1.10 1.22 1.28 1.12 1.24 1.43 1.45 1.71 1.79 2.1 1.75 1.60 1.38    1.42    1.46    1.26    1.17 1.23    1.00

That bold one is 1996. Note every year after that? 2011 is the first time the homicide rate actually dropped to or below the level it was the same year the UK banned guns.

So first the UK banned guns. And when that didn't work, now you've banned knives. How, exactly, is it a slippery slope argument if your country actually barreled headlong down the slope where I'm seeing articles like this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

Now how about the US for the same time period?

9.4  9.8  9.3  9.5  9.0  8.22  7.41  6.80  6.3  5.7  5.5  5.6  5.6  5.7  5.5  5.6    5.7    5.6    5.4    5.0  4.8  4.7  5.0    

Certainly nothing to be proud of, yet it's steadily decreased.

Offline Tairis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #324 on: November 02, 2015, 07:43:20 PM »
Honestly, though, I doubt many people in the USA live that far from law enforcement these days, especially with advances in communication and transportation technology. Back even fifty years ago, I could see it. Nowadays? Not so much. Even the small villages have some rudimentary law enforcement, and a small town with a small police force is likewise unlikely to have the head of the Mob living there. Just saying. I agree that the USA isn't the UK, but that doesn't mean that gun control wouldn't work. Again, at this point I doubt that removing the guns would actually happen, so I just want to see tighter gun control and regulation.

I spent the first 19 years of my life living in a house that was 28 miles from the nearest city. That means that if I called the cops the absolute quickest I could ever expect help would be 20 to 30 minutes.

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Yes, but I don't think that JUST implementing universal background checks is enough. It's a half measure that would go some way to reducing mass shootings, but wouldn't really stop them, which should be the end goal here. The goal should be to make everybody as safe as possible.

No, no it shouldn't. The goal should be to make people as safe as possible without turning people into drones only capable of looking to their government for help. You cannot wrap the world in bubble wrap. Life is dangerous.

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Actually, to be fair to the government, they didn't push for that: There were a few high profile stabbings, and there was a general backlash in the populace that pushed for it via petitions and whatnot. Parliament only pushed through the bill when it became apparent that the voting populace of the day wanted those measures put in place. It isn't like Parliament went "you can't be trusted with knives, so we're taking them away." Plus, I can kinda see the logic of reducing the accessibility of certain sharp objects to minors. Why would a 16 year old be buying a switchknife anyway?

And this is why we have a Constitution so that a public outcry and panic doesn't get to override law and common sense.  I'm not saying that you should be selling katanas to 12 year olds, that isn't anymore legal in the US than it is in the UK. But the fact that its illegal to sell a katana to freaking anyone is ridiculous.

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But at the same time, gun crime decreased, so how do you go about deciding that it was the banning of guns that increased the murder rate? That seems to be a bit of a leap, considering that at that time, the UK was also hit by a pretty heavy recession and a fair amount of social grumbling. I won't say unrest, but people definitely weren't happy for a variety of reasons.

Great, your gun crime went down. What didn't? Your murder rate. Why does it matter how the fuck someone gets killed? Is it somehow more noble to get beaten to death with a baseball bat than shot with a gun? Your country banned guns and it did nothing. Just as many people died, year after year, because people that want to take another human life don't give a crap if you ban things. If they can't get a gun, they'll get a knife. If they can't get a knife they'll get a rock.

If gun control actually lowered crime the statistics would bear it out. They don't. All gun control lowers is gun crime. So if I'm just as likely to be murdered one year to the next, how exactly am I safer because you took away my gun?

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Because you're arguing that one necessarily leads to another when it doesn't. The USA - hypothetically - banning guns wouldn't lead to banning knives since, as has been stated, the US and the UK are different in very many ways despite their similarities. It's a fallacy because you're attempting to suggest that any attempt to ban guns would lead to the USA taking away knives, when that just wouldn't happen due to the differences in cultures and societal reactions to certain things. For example, Americans take their right to weaponry far more seriously than the English do. I don't think anybody here would argue that point, right?

We'll never ban guns either in the same way. My point was that why would we even want to follow the example of a country that has become so terrified of the real world that they're scrambling to ban anything and everything harmful to their citizens? What comes next 10 years down the line when the murder rate is still in that same 1.0 to 1.3 range even after everyone in the UK has now given up their guns, their knives. What is the next thing to 'ban' going to be that's somehow going to change the crime rate even though the last two didn't?

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And I never said it didn't. I just said that gun crime is way too high in the US compared to other "civilised" countries.

We have more gun crime... because we have more crime. Our crime rate in general is simply higher than most of western europe (which is what I'm assuming you're using as the example of civilized countries). Sweden, Switzerland? Both have high rates of gun ownership yet have none of the same problems.

Crime isn't about people owning guns. Crime is about poverty and culture.