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Author Topic: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)  (Read 14786 times)

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Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #225 on: October 16, 2015, 07:42:24 AM »
And yet violent crime has dropped by half since the 90s and continues a steady decline.
correct, because the culture is shifting on it's own, we are actually growing less violent. However there are people who still subscribe to those ideas, and some of them ARE the kind of people who shoot people trying to prove this or stop that.
most of the shootings lately have been ideological, in so far as you can call coming up with a conspiracy about the government and christian help groups controlling your mind, or black people fighting a secret war of races against you, or "blowing up this marathon will some how magically liberate a homeland I've never been to from a government that doesn't exist" an ideology.
random communist-related scribbles worked as a justification for the Oklahoma bomber X,x

it's like... the violent crazies in our culture are coming out of the woodwork as the population gets less violent or somthing. Wierd.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #226 on: October 16, 2015, 08:03:39 AM »
So....I have to wonder.....if the statistics show that we are actually becoming less violent, the impression is that we are becoming more violent...do any of you think that the media has anything to do with that? 

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #227 on: October 16, 2015, 08:22:52 AM »
That shows the number of homicides, not the rate (which has steadily decreased as population increases), but yes.
Even if you look at the per-capita figures, numbers have remained relatively stable over the last 10 to 15 years. I don't think there is all that great a difference between 3.8 per 100,000 and 3.6 per 100,000 (2000 vs. 2010 figures).

The trend is actually more pronounced in non-fatal firearms crime, which drops by 1/3 after 2001.  If the issue were just better hospitals, that number would reflect an increase coinciding with your theoretical 'would have been a fatality but saved by medicine' cases. 

Just as I suspected, the Pew data for "non-fatal violent firearm crime"  does not say much (if any) about the number of guns fired or people injured. As they explain on page 2 of the report:
Quote
Non-fatal firearm crimes are defined throughout this section as aggravated assault, robbery and sex crimes in which the victim saw a weapon.
So it is entirely possible for the number of those cases to fall, while firearm injuries (excluding accidents) can rise. One possible explanation could be a shrinking number of armed criminals, with a higher tendency to make use of guns among the smaller, shrinking base number of "hardened criminals".

Edit:
So....I have to wonder.....if the statistics show that we are actually becoming less violent, the impression is that we are becoming more violent...do any of you think that the media has anything to do with that?
I don't think the statistics actually show a drop in violence. Gun-related, non-accidental firearm injuries have risen in absolute, and per-capaita terms, while the number of gun-related deaths has remained stable for about a decade. There are some changes in how many of those are suicides and how many homicides, but the numbers look pretty stable from where I sit.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 08:32:23 AM by Cassandra LeMay »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #228 on: October 16, 2015, 09:57:23 AM »
So....I have to wonder.....if the statistics show that we are actually becoming less violent, the impression is that we are becoming more violent...do any of you think that the media has anything to do with that?

I certainly think they are a contributing factor, though not in the sense that it's a deliberate conspiracy to make us want to buy more guns to protect ourselves.  Media outlets are slaves to their advertising revenue, which is more or less directly derived from the number of viewers they get (the all-important 'Ratings'). So they will always pick sensationalist stories, or report on otherwise mundane stories as if they were more exciting than they are, to lure in more viewers.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #229 on: October 16, 2015, 02:19:51 PM »
There is an FBI report that suggests "active shooter" incidents have increased over the years.


But there are folks who dispute the validity of this report.


Offline Cassandra LeMay


Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #231 on: October 16, 2015, 03:53:54 PM »
Completely and utterly wrong. It IS a matter of law, since these weapons are used to BREAK the law and hurt people.

You can not use laws to regulate people who willingly break the law.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #232 on: October 16, 2015, 04:27:52 PM »
You can not use laws to regulate people who willingly break the law.

  So we theft shouldn't be illegal, since people will just do it anyway? What about traffic laws, they are perfect either, some people break them. In fact, I think we just lost all laws. I say good riddance, who really law and order. Seriously, that show was overhyped. It was decent, but not amazing.

  In all seriousness, what do you propose we use to regulate people willing to break the law?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 04:28:56 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #233 on: October 16, 2015, 04:32:53 PM »
  In all seriousness, what do you propose we use to regulate people willing to break the law?

More guns, of course.


Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #234 on: October 16, 2015, 04:47:10 PM »
Hyperbole does nothing to add to a commentary on any issue, nor does the straw man fallacy.  We have a criminal justice system that is supposed to deal with people who violate the law.  Regrettably some of the more recent people who've decided to go on killing sprees have ended it by taking their own life, thus skirting the justice system, however that justice system would have only given them death, or life behind bars.

This is punishment, however, and not prevention.  Can we say it is just or moral to allow the actions of others, and a very small minority of others it is, affect the personal liberties of people who have in no way done anything wrong?  Stricter laws are going to do nothing to someone who is willing not only to violate laws to get what they want, but to die in the end.  Much like kamikaze planes in the pacific theater of World War 2, the only thing you can do is shoot at them, and pray for the best.  Do not take this as me saying that we should all be armed and shooting people to protect ourselves, so much as me saying that our hopes in stopping someone who is willing to die to do something are slim to none.  Most of the time shooting at Kamikaze pilots did nothing, and they ended up sinking whatever boat they set into their sights.

Like Kamikaze, these people are born from desperation.  They are born from a society that is less and less willing to comprise, and is more and more divisive and bleak.  As love vanishes, only hate can take it's place.  As tolerance thins, only intolerance can step forth to fill that void.  These people are lost, and they need to be found.  They need to be understood, and treated with the care and compassion that this culture should be placing on all those with mental and emotional difficulties.  We can not just marginalize them by pretending that they are simply born evil.  They are not, they are made evil (or desperate as the case surely is) because of the lives they lived, the society they grew up in, and an over abundance of media giving forth the idea that they can become famous, or that a single dedicated soul can truly change the world.

Laws will not prevent someone who ignores laws from doing as they please, they only place harsher sanctions against people who have otherwise been perfectly law abiding citizens.  This is a tricky issue, it is not black and white, it is not even shades of gray.  There is no single solution to this, and certainly more laws are going to have very little effect on it.  It requires a social approach to seek out the root of the issue, to find out what has pushed us so far that slaughter is the only option we have left, and then to deal with it from there.

No one wants to kill, to hurt, or to destroy, until something has pushed them there.  People are not born "evil".

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #235 on: October 16, 2015, 04:53:47 PM »
Laws will not prevent someone who ignores laws from doing as they please, they only place harsher sanctions against people who have otherwise been perfectly law abiding citizens.  This is a tricky issue, it is not black and white, it is not even shades of gray.  There is no single solution to this, and certainly more laws are going to have very little effect on it.  It requires a social approach to seek out the root of the issue, to find out what has pushed us so far that slaughter is the only option we have left, and then to deal with it from there.

  Again, Europe, Canada, Australia and Japan. They don't have spree killers and the murder rate is lower, yet presumably they have similar social problems to the ones in USA and share aspects of the culture. They have far stricter gun control. Its not conclusive, but doesn't it at least suggest that there may be a simply solution?

  In some ways I guess I agree with the idea of a social approach. Specifically accepting that even if they will never be implemented, repealing the second amendment could very well save lives. That would at least lead to a healthier attitude to what a gun does, even if no laws change.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #236 on: October 16, 2015, 04:57:17 PM »
You say this:

This is a tricky issue, it is not black and white, it is not even shades of gray. 

Yet you also say this:

Stricter laws are going to do nothing to someone who is willing not only to violate laws to get what they want,

Seems like you're advocating a black and white position to me:  no new gun laws ever!


Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #237 on: October 16, 2015, 05:01:24 PM »
Then you are reading into my words what you would like to see there.  I've only said that laws will not stop someone who is willing to break laws.  In much the same way that a speed limit is not going to stop someone determined to speed.  I'm not saying raise the speed limit to make their law breaking go away, and I am not saying make penalties much more hefty in order to sway them to speed less.  I am only saying that laws mean nothing to the lawless.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #238 on: October 16, 2015, 05:02:48 PM »
Then you are reading into my words what you would like to see there.  I've only said that laws will not stop someone who is willing to break laws.  In much the same way that a speed limit is not going to stop someone determined to speed.  I'm not saying raise the speed limit to make their law breaking go away, and I am not saying make penalties much more hefty in order to sway them to speed less.  I am only saying that laws mean nothing to the lawless.

  So there's no correlation between European gun laws and the reduced gun murder rate? Its a coincidence?

  Also wasn't New York in part cleaned up by new laws, like draconian penalties for graffiti? Or was I misinformed?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 05:04:38 PM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #239 on: October 16, 2015, 05:08:51 PM »
I am only saying that laws mean nothing to the lawless.

Fair enough.

I believe that laws can have a deterrent value.  And some laws, that operate to limit the distribution of certain items, do limit the availability of said items even to miscreants.  But we can agree to disagree on this.

Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #240 on: October 16, 2015, 05:16:19 PM »
Perhaps.  Perhaps not. 

I can not say for sure.  I can only say that laws will not stop people who are not stopped by laws.  I do not insist that anyone live by my ideas, I am simply expressing them.  I speak from my heart, which I see as a place of love and unity.  Those who use numbers speak from their brains, which a place of rigid facts and unbending logic.  Regrettably, logic does not always do us as much good as we think.  I believe, and this is a tangent here so forgive me, that we as a culture have turned our back on the heart, and fully embraced the brain.  The brain does not bend, it knows facts, it knows if something is right or if something is wrong, and all too often nothing in heaven or earth will move a brain once it has made its mind up.  It will cling to an answer, often times with evidence to support it, and immediately deny any answer that wavers even slightly from its point of view. 

The brain is intolerant and direct.  The heart is fickle, understanding, and prone to acceptance over strife.  We need to be more heart-centric and stop thinking that only by being right can we solve this issue.  I don't believe in right.  There are few things in the world that apply to all people, at all times, in all places.  Nothing is right, some things are only right for us, in this moment, in this time.  Can you say the same thing about the second amendment?  Was it right in the 1700s?  Is it right now?  I don't have answers to that question, but I do have feelings.  I feel that personal liberty is more important than personal security.  For me, the right to express myself is the most important thing in my life.  This only applies to my life, and others may feel that the right to own a gun is the most important thing in their life.  I can not call them wrong, and I can not call myself right.  I am but one human in a world of 6 billion.

I am insignificant and I know only my own heart.  I wouldn't feel right telling someone else they had to live their life by my rules.  This is why I offer no answers, and only express how I feel about this topic.  My truth is that there are no universal truths.  This is why say that compromise, tolerance, and understanding are so very important.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #241 on: October 16, 2015, 05:23:03 PM »
Perhaps.  Perhaps not. 

I can not say for sure.  I can only say that laws will not stop people who are not stopped by laws.

  So where are these people who will not be stopped by laws in Europe? We have criminals yes, they sometimes use guns, but less often than in America, and we don't have a problem with school shooting. Where are the school shooters who won't be stopped by laws?

  I appreciate you cannot have a definite answer to such large questions, but your insistence on the unknown sounds a lot like equivocation to avoid having to acknowledge the very real possibility that gun controls laws work, based on the the observable reality of the modern western world (and do note modern, not England 200 years ago) out side the USA.

Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #242 on: October 16, 2015, 05:31:12 PM »
Ahh, it took me a moment to realize that when you say We you mean Europe.  I was very confused there for a moment.

I don't know, I am not European nor do I keep abreast of current events in Europe.  Your culture, however, is not my culture.  I think, or at least like to hope, that the United States is unique in it's divided, mostly selfish, and quite backwards culture.  I'm told you have better education, better health care, and numerous other social programs to help minimize the number of desperate people, and the severity of the desperation that they feel.  To go back to traffic law analogies, if you are merely in a hurry, you will speed.  If you just found out that your house is on fire and your child is trapped in the flames, you will speed, run red lights, endanger others, and completely ignore traffic laws to get home and get your child safe.  The ends justify the means?  These are the degrees you can find in desperation.  It too is not a simple thing, and comes in many scales.

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #243 on: October 16, 2015, 05:34:10 PM »
The thing that really stymies fixing something like this is both very simple, and very difficult.

We have to be able to have the conversation.

That requires more people to come out from their defensive positions.  On both sides.

Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #244 on: October 16, 2015, 05:35:22 PM »
The thing that really stymies fixing something like this is both very simple, and very difficult.

We have to be able to have the conversation.

That requires more people to come out from their defensive positions.  On both sides.

I could not agree with this more.  And the conversation must be multifaceted, not a single person telling us what will be, and what is right.  This is not a multiple choice issue, this is an essay question.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #245 on: October 16, 2015, 05:40:28 PM »
Ahh, it took me a moment to realize that when you say We you mean Europe.  I was very confused there for a moment.

I don't know, I am not European nor do I keep abreast of current events in Europe.  Your culture, however, is not my culture.  I think, or at least like to hope, that the United States is unique in it's divided, mostly selfish, and quite backwards culture.  I'm told you have better education, better health care, and numerous other social programs to help minimize the number of desperate people, and the severity of the desperation that they feel.  To go back to traffic law analogies, if you are merely in a hurry, you will speed.  If you just found out that your house is on fire and your child is trapped in the flames, you will speed, run red lights, endanger others, and completely ignore traffic laws to get home and get your child safe.  The ends justify the means?  These are the degrees you can find in desperation.  It too is not a simple thing, and comes in many scales.

  Why are you listing every difference between European culture as a whole (my mistake since I started this, it was for simplicity's sake), except gun culture and control? Yeah, you are right, the other factors you list could contribute as well, but they almost all effect poor people, which not all . I don't think a middle class citizen of the USA has a particularly sub-par standard of life compared to a middle class Western European. Still, I'm willing to acknowledged that better social institutions may also explain the reduced gun homicide rate. Are you willing to acknowledge that gun control likely plays a part too? You are 1.27 times as likely to be stabbed in the UK than in the US, but 35.2 times more likely to be shot in the US than in the UK. Don't those numbers imply something?

Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #246 on: October 16, 2015, 05:45:25 PM »
Because you are speaking of an entire continent, and I am speaking of a single nation.  Am I mistaken in thinking that you've all got different gun laws in your various nations.  I recognize that you likely also have varying degrees of health care and education, but I have heard they're all still a far sight better than those in the USA.

Also, because it serves my side of the argument more. ^ - ^  I will at least admit to that, because it does, however it is not the only reason I do so.  I feel that a balanced culture simply has less standouts.  Not none, but less.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #247 on: October 16, 2015, 05:50:51 PM »
Because you are speaking of an entire continent, and I am speaking of a single nation.  Am I mistaken in thinking that you've all got different gun laws in your various nations.  I recognize that you likely also have varying degrees of health care and education, but I have heard they're all still a far sight better than those in the USA.

Also, because it serves my side of the argument more. ^ - ^  I will at least admit to that, because it does, however it is not the only reason I do so.  I feel that a balanced culture simply has less standouts.  Not none, but less.

  Fair enough, but for my last point I focused on the UK vs. the US, being stabbed vs. being shot. The conclusion I draw from this is that whilst the UK has no shortage of people wanting to hurt you (note you are more likely to be stabbed), it is still less likely to happen because stabbing someone is much harder than shooting someone. What conclusion do you draw?

  And yes, Europe does have varying gun laws, but they are all characterized by being way more restricted than the US. The closest is Switzerland (probably, we aren't entirely sure they count), and they have to go through significantly more training and cannot keep ammunition in the house.

Offline theLeslie

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #248 on: October 16, 2015, 06:01:18 PM »
I had heard that, that particular caveat to Switzerland's gun laws amuses me.  It is a novel approach.  As I understand it, the difficulty between stabbing and shooting is that NOT (edit)that vast.  Most shootings happen up close and personal.  I am also told that survival against a gun shot is often easier than against a knife would.  Sadly, I haven't spent much time looking in to that matter, so I can not say for sure.

Access to guns certainly does limit ones ability to shoot someone, however I don't think there would be much of an issue accessing guns even if they were outlawed in the United States.  I recall years ago, our government sold a large box of fully automatic assault rifles to Mexican drug cartels.  Granted, it was said they did not do so to arm the cartels so much as track the guns to where they went, but even our government here is willing to be highly irresponsible with access to guns.  We have a criminal culture here, you can see it in our media.  There are abundant examples of glorifying criminals in our music, television, and moves. 

I am a criminal.  I smoke pot.  It is illegal, and yet I have such ready access too it, that were they to start selling it on every corner store, it would only be slightly more convenient than it is now.  Those same people sell other drugs, and get their supply from people who sell yet more.  People who sell drugs are also known to have other street connections, be it for weapons, or prostitutes delivered via human traffic.  The problem is, our culture is more prone to inflammatory sentiment and rabble rousing than it is to actually closing these loop holes.  There is a great deal of money made by both private companies and government organizations alike that thrive because of this vast, deeply rooted criminal culture.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 06:02:26 PM by theLeslie »

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #249 on: October 16, 2015, 06:10:45 PM »
I had heard that, that particular caveat to Switzerland's gun laws amuses me.  It is a novel approach.  As I understand it, the difficulty between stabbing and shooting is that NOT (edit)that vast.  Most shootings happen up close and personal.

  10ft is pretty up close and personal, but you won't be able to stab someone from that distance, and few people can throw a a blade with any skill.

I am also told that survival against a gun shot is often easier than against a knife would.  Sadly, I haven't spent much time looking in to that matter, so I can not say for sure.

  Statistics I found indicate the opposite, at least for wounds to the abdomen:

                 Cases      Deaths     % Deaths                 95% conf for mortality rate
All GSW      190           33           17.4                                13%-23%
All stab       262           14            5.3                                  3%-9%

(source: Annals of Surgery Vol 153 pp 639-649 “Civilian Penetrating Wounds of the Abdomen” by Wilson and Sherman)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 06:12:19 PM by LisztesFerenc »