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Author Topic: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)  (Read 14981 times)

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Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2015, 04:17:09 AM »
I don't see why mass shootings that happen in the context of an armed robbery or other fellony should be excluded. If the question is "do gun-free zones lead to an increase in mass shootings?" or "do 'good guys with guns' stop shootings?" you have to look at all shootings where there are bystanders. if the question is "what do bystanders do?" it doesn't matter what the intent of the armed fellon is because you are no longer talking about his actions, but about the actions of someone who witnesses a person pointing a gun at someone.

  You'll have a hard time arguing a bystanders options and chances against a potential shooter there to make money and at worst is willing to shoot someone if they get in their way than they do against a shooter whose primary purpose is a body count.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 04:18:18 AM by LisztesFerenc »

Offline WanderingBlackDragon

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2015, 07:11:29 AM »
All I can say is that I'm getting tired of the monotony of the whole thing. As Obama said, we're becoming numb to the whole thing, and that's not good.

I'll say this, the whole debate is placing way too much emphasis on guns. One side paints guns as the cause of all our problems, and the paints them as the solution to all of our problems. Yes, guns are used in various violent crime and the US has some of the highest gun death rates in the world. Yes, guns have also been used in various cases of self-defense and have in fact saved lives (though at the cost of the criminal's life(s) at times).

However, the anti-gun side seems to ignore the intent to do harm, as opposed to the means to do harm. The UK supposedly have very strict gun laws, but the knife-related crime rate is extremely high. I have heard that despite Australia banning guns, they suffered an extreme amount of gun-related crimes. These people need to understand that making something illegal will not deter everyone from doing it, and it a person is that determined to harm people, they will find a way to do it.

As for the pro-gun side, cases like this demonstrate that, despite all the talk of the second amendment, there are people out there whole just shouldn't have access to guns, weapons, or objects that could be used to harm others for any reason, EVER. After all, places like Japan have strict gun laws and violent crimes are supposedly low (you take that statement with a grain of salt), though it seems most people there are more likely to hurt themselves than another person. This has to do with culture and people's attitudes toward violence. Not to mention, I remember hearing the last few shootings occurred because the perpetrator was able to get a weapon despite not completing a background check.

As a martial artist, I believe the average citizen's right to protect themselves, from criminals, tyrannical governments, or whatever should not be violated. However, those same people have to be able to demonstrate responsibility and compassion when it comes to owning a deadly weapon. Thankfully many institutions exist to help educate people on responsible gun ownership and safety, but when you also look at places like Florida, whose "Stand your ground" law will give anyone the excuse to kill someone over bullocks, there's always going to be some asshole to take advantage.

So, what do I think people should do? Tighten up the laws we have on the books and place more emphasis on proper conflict resolution and using deadly weapons as last resorts to a violent situation.

Offline Caehlim

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2015, 07:19:49 AM »
I have heard that despite Australia banning guns, they suffered an extreme amount of gun-related crimes.

Nope

Offline Avis habilis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2015, 07:28:52 AM »
However, the anti-gun side seems to ignore the intent to do harm, as opposed to the means to do harm.

That's exactly backward. The idea behind reducing availability of firearms is to impede killers' ability to kill large numbers of people at once. Of course you can't legislate intent. But by that line of reasoning there's no point in having any laws at all. The speed limit has never kept me from doing 75 on the highway when I'm in a hurry. No law has ever prevented anyone who really, really wanted to do something from doing it.

The UK supposedly have very strict gun laws, but the knife-related crime rate is extremely high.

I think you'll find no one outside of manga has yet managed to knife two dozen people to death in under 10 minutes. (Yes, there was the mass stabbing in China in 2014 but that was a prolonged assault by eight attackers.)

Online Cassandra LeMay

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2015, 08:01:35 AM »
I have heard that despite Australia banning guns, they suffered an extreme amount of gun-related crimes.


Source: BBC based on UNODC data

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2015, 09:22:54 AM »
However, the anti-gun side seems to ignore the intent to do harm, as opposed to the means to do harm. The UK supposedly have very strict gun laws, but the knife-related crime rate is extremely high.

  What does extremely high mean? High relative to what? Also, the statistics I could find said that you are 1.27 times more likely to be stabbed in the UK than in the US, but 35.2 times more likely to be shot in the US than you are in the UK. So whilst some people do presumably use knives instead of guns, the line that "people would just use knives" is a bit dismissive of the the reality these figures imply.

Offline WanderingBlackDragon

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #131 on: October 07, 2015, 06:51:19 AM »
Hm, this is what I get for not being in debate for a few years.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #132 on: October 07, 2015, 03:02:52 PM »
making something illegal will not deter everyone from doing it, and it a person is that determined to harm people, they will find a way to do it.

I have seen the NRA (and those who want to be in the good graces of the NRA) make this argument over and over.  It is ludicrous.  A law doesn't need to have a 100% success rate to have a positive contribution to society.

Child molestation is illegal.  Yet it still happens.  Should those laws never have been passed?  Should we give up trying to develop and enact new laws to prevent, prosecute, and punish such conduct?

Following the NRA's reasoning, the answer to both is "yes."  And that is obviously, hideously wrong.

« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 03:06:42 PM by Cycle »

Offline eBadger

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #133 on: October 07, 2015, 03:32:12 PM »
I have seen the NRA (and those who want to be in the good graces of the NRA) make this argument over and over.  It is ludicrous.  A law doesn't need to have a 100% success rate to have a positive contribution to society.

Child molestation is illegal.  Yet it still happens.  Should those laws never have been passed?  Should we give up trying to develop and enact new laws to prevent, prosecute, and punish such conduct?

Following the NRA's reasoning, the answer to both is "yes."  And that is obviously, hideously wrong.

Agreed; violence would continue, shootings would continue, but making a thing more difficult would undoubtedly make it less common.  And even one preventable shooting is something that should be considered. 

On the other hand, your metaphor is imperfect: it equates owning a gun for self protection with child molestation.  Which is just as ludicrous; people should have the right and capability to defend their own lives. 

Both sides are guilty of trying to reduce the discussion about firearms to a few simplistic catchphrases. 

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #134 on: October 07, 2015, 04:00:50 PM »
On the other hand, your metaphor is imperfect: it equates owning a gun for self protection with child molestation. 

I'll clarify.  I am not suggesting that there should be a law to ban gun ownership flat out. 

I do support laws that require background checks and bans certain groups of people from owning guns.  Such laws are analogous to how some of the child molestation laws operate:  e.g., registration, may not live within X radius of schools, etc.


Offline Caehlim

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #135 on: October 07, 2015, 04:05:20 PM »
Such laws are analogous to how some of the child molestation laws operate:  e.g., registration, may not live within X radius of schools, etc.

I know this is drifting slowly off topic but... A lot of those laws are really badly written. I would sincerely hope that they are never used as the template for other laws.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #136 on: October 07, 2015, 04:13:52 PM »
Yes, that is going off topic.

My original point was to show that the argument that no laws should be passed unless it is 100% successful is a ridiculous argument.

I'm going back there.  If folks want to discuss other permutations of my post, I'll just go ahead and apologize for not wording it in a way that was sufficiently clear and bow out.


Offline Ryven

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #137 on: October 07, 2015, 08:18:50 PM »
I do support laws that require background checks and bans certain groups of people from owning guns.  Such laws are analogous to how some of the child molestation laws operate:  e.g., registration, may not live within X radius of schools, etc.



How would these certain groups be classified?

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #138 on: October 07, 2015, 08:26:36 PM »
My original point was to show that the argument that no laws should be passed unless it is 100% successful is a ridiculous argument.

I'm going back there.  If folks want to discuss other permutations of my post, I'll just go ahead and apologize for not wording it in a way that was sufficiently clear and bow out.


Offline Ryven

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #139 on: October 07, 2015, 08:32:28 PM »
My question still stands.  Anyone who is going to make the assertion that certain groups will not be allowed to own guns will get that same question from me, and not just about guns.  Guns happen to be the relevant topic right now.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #140 on: October 07, 2015, 08:35:00 PM »
As you wish.

Send the me proposed legislation.  I will tell you if I support it or not.


Offline Ryven

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #141 on: October 07, 2015, 08:40:05 PM »
It hasn't been drafted yet, most likely because restricting rights, especially when dealing with the 2nd amendment, is a touchy subject.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #142 on: October 07, 2015, 08:44:29 PM »
Agreed that gun control is a touchy subject.

I think we also agree that the devil will be in the details of any such proposal.

I'm open to a legislator trying.  I may agree with the proposal.  I may not.  But I'd like to see someone put in the effort.  I won't stop them from trying.


Online Cassandra LeMay

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #143 on: October 08, 2015, 01:39:52 AM »
I'm not sure if I should post this here, on in the thread about the presidential election, but I wonder how much this remark by Ben Carson on Facebook may have made the news in the US or not:
Quote
There is no doubt that this senseless violence is breathtaking but I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away.

And this from the man who writes in the same post:
Quote
I saw plenty of gun violence as a child. Both of my cousins were killed on the streets. As a Doctor, I spent many a night pulling bullets out of bodies.

I guess the good doctor doesn't have enough patients.  ::)

Online Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #144 on: October 08, 2015, 08:54:22 AM »
Not entirely sure about MSM, but it's all over Facebook.  I follow a journalist from back in Ohio (who also happens to be the wife of a Senator), and she had it on her page.  I'm wondering if the 'good doctor' would like to take a look at all the infants that were killed by gunfire in Cleveland over the past few weeks.

On a less gut-level response, he's using a false dichotomy.  There is a vast difference between enforcing existing regulations and tightening loopholes and 'taking away owr gunnnnnnzzzzz!'

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #145 on: October 08, 2015, 08:56:13 AM »

Personally I'm in favor of a licence system myself, you need one to hunt animals, need one to drive 2 tons of metal at 60 mph, so why not one for deadly projectile weapons.
You prove on a firing range you know how to handle, clean, and be safe with a gun, pass a background check (no drug charges, not insane, did not charge the paper boy with a samurai sword last summer and wind up on the police blog, ect.), initial here, and list serial number for the weapon... wham enjoy your shotgun sir.

As it is MS13 gang members can drive to texas, go to a gun show, and drive away with a crate of assault rifles with no paper work required.

Online Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #146 on: October 08, 2015, 09:58:53 AM »
Personally I'm in favor of a licence system myself, you need one to hunt animals, need one to drive 2 tons of metal at 60 mph, so why not one for deadly projectile weapons.
You prove on a firing range you know how to handle, clean, and be safe with a gun, pass a background check (no drug charges, not insane, did not charge the paper boy with a samurai sword last summer and wind up on the police blog, ect.), initial here, and list serial number for the weapon... wham enjoy your shotgun sir.

As it is MS13 gang members can drive to texas, go to a gun show, and drive away with a crate of assault rifles with no paper work required.

Bingo. 

Offline eBadger

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #147 on: October 08, 2015, 11:29:15 AM »
I guess the good doctor doesn't have enough patients.  ::)

I've seen more than a couple bodies killed by guns, I agree with the statement.  A false dichotomy perhaps, but as mentioned previously both sides seem to keep seeing this as all or nothing. 

Personally I'm in favor of a licence system myself, you need one to hunt animals, need one to drive 2 tons of metal at 60 mph, so why not one for deadly projectile weapons.
You prove on a firing range you know how to handle, clean, and be safe with a gun, pass a background check (no drug charges, not insane, did not charge the paper boy with a samurai sword last summer and wind up on the police blog, ect.), initial here, and list serial number for the weapon... wham enjoy your shotgun sir

I would add a ballistics record, but that sums it up pretty perfectly for me. 

Offline Cycle

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #148 on: October 08, 2015, 11:53:15 AM »
Personally I'm in favor of a licence system myself, you need one to hunt animals, need one to drive 2 tons of metal at 60 mph, so why not one for deadly projectile weapons.
You prove on a firing range you know how to handle, clean, and be safe with a gun, pass a background check (no drug charges, not insane, did not charge the paper boy with a samurai sword last summer and wind up on the police blog, ect.), initial here, and list serial number for the weapon... wham enjoy your shotgun sir.

I like this idea.  Here in California, the requirements to get a driver's license are:
  • Identification (photo, thumbprint, name, address)
  • SSN/legal residency
  • Minimum age
  • Pass written exam
  • Pass driving test
  • Vision exam
  • Pay registration fee
So running with Ironwolf's idea, the equivalent for getting a license to buy a gun can be:
  • Identification (photo, thumbprint, name, address)
  • SSN/legal residency
  • Minimum age
  • Pass written exam (on when you can or cannot use a gun--e.g., can you shoot at a shoplifter in HomeDepot?)
  • Pass safety test (where's the safety?  how do you unload the gun?  how do you check to see if there is a bullet in the chamber?)
  • Pay registration fee
Also in CA, we have to register our vehicles.  The same can be done with guns using their serial numbers.

How about adding a background check along the lines of: (1) people who are convicted felons or on the no-fly list cannot get purchase licenses/have their licenses revoked; (2) people who have outstanding warrants for their arrest cannot get purchase licenses; and (3) in the case of a domestic issue-related restraining order, for good cause shown, the judge may suspend a person's purchase license while the order is in effect (such an order would be appealable)?

As for gun show sales, what if we require all vendors selling guns to follow the same rules--i.e., whether you go to the store, go to a gun show, or do it online, it's the same rules.  And really, if we have a licensing system, the requirement to buy a gun can simply be:  (a) show the vendor your valid purchase license, and (b) show proof of insurance. 

Alright, maybe not the insurance bit.  ;)  Or maybe so.  Hmm.  I bet the insurance industry would love that...


Offline Ephiral

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #149 on: October 08, 2015, 02:37:43 PM »
You prove on a firing range you know how to handle, clean, and be safe with a gun, pass a background check (no drug charges, not insane, did not charge the paper boy with a samurai sword last summer and wind up on the police blog, ect.), initial here, and list serial number for the weapon... wham enjoy your shotgun sir.

Just gonna point out again that, on average, people with mental illnesses and neurodivergent people are no more violent than the general population, and an order of magnitude more likely to be victims of violence.

If your justification for gun ownership is self-defence, this is a really shitty criterion that continues to push a false stigma.