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Author Topic: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)  (Read 20686 times)

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Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #100 on: October 02, 2015, 07:36:02 PM »
Trump says something stupid and insensitive. Film at 11.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #101 on: October 02, 2015, 08:44:47 PM »
I didn't say I was surprised...

      Yeah, last I read Trump was all 'anti-social loner weirdo' and "things fall through the cracks," blah blah.

It's just that the thousands of little "cracked" cases in the US, keep coming up with multiple body counts.  ::)

-------------

      And otherwise, generally speaking there's the racial scenarios comparison: But if it had been a Black guy?  "Why don't these people integrate better/control their own community?" -- "Omg no a riot is coming!" -- "Stop funding welfare and making these people believe they deserve anything at all..." -- "Seeee, this is what they're really like!"  Oh, but since it's this White guy:  Instead it's all  "Sad, isolated loner, he just couldn't take the heat in our modern society, tough breaks, but so shocking for the families, just can't understand it at all."    :o



Actually, there is 1) a profile linked to him that identifies him as mixed race, and 2) there is some indication that he targeted Christians

In other face-palming news, the sheriff is apparently one of those tin-foil hat wearers who claims the Sandy Hook shooting was a hoax, and when I was surfing YouTube this morning, there are already idiots out there claiming that this shooting is a hoax.  (The 'Tubers don't deserve the traffic, but you can find a link in the article linked in this paragraph if you are interested.)

Jack Nicholson knows what this country needs.



Offline DiscoveringEzra

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #102 on: October 02, 2015, 10:28:30 PM »
Speaking of Sandy hook, get a load of this. This shooting is counted as the 142nd school shooting since sandy hook, The 45th This year.


45th Article- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/us-school-shooting_560d88bde4b0af3706dff6b8

142nd article- http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/1/142-school-shootings-sandy-hook-massacre-newtown-c/

Then there is this- http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/10/01/2015-274-days-294-mass-shootings-hundreds-dead/

And this- http://everytownresearch.org/reports/mass-shootings-analysis/

They say that Shooting Tracker is using the FBI's definition (In which they use a broader definition of Mass shootings), so Everytown for Gun Safety's number is lower.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #103 on: October 03, 2015, 12:59:57 AM »
As someone with legit mental illness and disabilities that get read as "sociopath, therefore evil and violent" (wrong on all three counts - and for the record, "sociopath" isn't even a thing), I've gotta say I get a little bit more terrified every time I see the "mental illness" excuse trotted out to defend a white mass murderer.

It's not a thing - like, really really not. People with mental illnesses, even the vilified ones like psychosis and ASPD, are far, far more likely to be victims than violent. Please don't just nod along with this lie.

Offline eBadger

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #104 on: October 03, 2015, 01:26:19 AM »
It's not a thing - like, really really not. People with mental illnesses, even the vilified ones like psychosis and ASPD, are far, far more likely to be victims than violent. Please don't just nod along with this lie.

I'm willing to listen to a case that a sane, reasoning, emotionally mature, non chemically-imbalanced individual would logically conclude that a school mass shooting is a good idea, but I don't see one myself. 

However, I certainly agree that doesn't imply all mentally ill people are violent. 

I actually think the better conclusion is that we need better understanding of mental illness, care for people facing difficulties and removal of the stigma involved in seeking help.  Also a wider social change away from the glamorization of violence and the constant capitalist message of inadequacy, but that's a bit heftier goal :)

Offline Ephiral

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #105 on: October 03, 2015, 08:47:46 AM »
I'm willing to listen to a case that a sane, reasoning, emotionally mature, non chemically-imbalanced individual would logically conclude that a school mass shooting is a good idea, but I don't see one myself. 

However, I certainly agree that doesn't imply all mentally ill people are violent.
Um. "I can't think of another reason, therefore this is the cause" is kinda shoddy reasoning. But since you asked: Factors far more common than mental illness include substance abuse and being the victim of bullying.

This report has some very interesting notes on mental illness and violence: Among other things, it notes that rates of violence among the mentally ill are indistinguishable from the general population - in fact, "young, poor boy, therefore violent" (while also a terrible methodology) would have a significantly higher hit rate. It's pretty obvious that "Mass murderer was a poor, aggrieved white dude with a substance abuse problem who recently had a major life setback" is way more accurate than "mass murderer must've been mentally ill." It also notes that violence is negatively correlated with schizophrenia and delusion - some of the most stigmatized mental illnesses - as compared to the general population.

And while we're at it, violent victimization is a full order of magnitude more likely among the mentally ill than the general population.

I actually think the better conclusion is that we need better understanding of mental illness, care for people facing difficulties and removal of the stigma involved in seeking help.  Also a wider social change away from the glamorization of violence and the constant capitalist message of inadequacy, but that's a bit heftier goal :)
I'm not sure how you can look at someone saying "Please don't assume that violence must be caused by mental illness." and conclude that removing stigma is a better approach - "multiple murderers are mentally ill" and "mentally ill people are violent" are among the worst stigma, and lead directly to excessive institutionalization and victimization and unwillingness to get help.

When you use mental illness to excuse mass murderers, you are wrong and you make it harder for some of the most desperate, marginalized people in our society to seek and receive the treatment they need, and easier for others to abuse and hurt them. This is a shitty thing to do. Please don't do it.

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #106 on: October 03, 2015, 01:34:41 PM »
Generalization in either direction is problematic.  There are conditions where outbursts of violent behavior are symptomatic, such as intermittent explosive disorder and dissocial personality disorder.

Offline Retribution

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #107 on: October 05, 2015, 11:09:19 AM »
I found this article that came across my news feed interesting. Not going to comment other than that. It is long but I think worth the read even if it is slightly out of date.

http://markmanson.net/school-shootings


Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #108 on: October 05, 2015, 01:15:29 PM »
  As always my response to such an article would "If its not guns that cause the school shooting problem, why doesn't Europe have one?" As I usually find to be he case, this article fails to provide an answer. Is Europe (Along with Canada, Australia and Japan) more emphatic than America?

Offline Retribution

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #109 on: October 05, 2015, 01:29:03 PM »
My general response to such arguments is John Moses Browning invented the pump action shotgun Winchester Model 97 in the year 1897. He invented the Browning A in 1900 and it is a semi automatic shotgun. I name these two because unless everything I have read and been told by acquaintances who live there these are two of the type firearms confiscated 19 years ago when Australia changed their gun laws. Also unless I am sadly mistaken one of the world's most infamous serial killers Jack the Riper came from Britain and used a knife for his dirty work.

I named two specific firearms because we are looking at a time period of over a 100 years. Unless I am mistaken school shootings are a relatively recent phenomena as in the last few decades. Since we had repeating and semi automatic firearms for lets say 70 years before school shootings I would say something else has changed. And of course you will answer with a factoid of your own and not agree with me and tell me how I am all wrong -shrugs-

The article does not dismiss gun control. And I am fine with that, but I think there is some value to treating mass shootings as a relatively recent phenomena and as a terrorist act. I would love to tell people I know how to fix this. I do not. I would love to tell people I know what causes this. I do not. I would love to say the President's proposed background checks would fix this. They will not because unless I am reading various sources wrong in order to be deemed mentally incompetent to own a firearm you have to have been forcibly committed to a mental institution and that does not apply to these shooters. So what I am left with is what most people are and that is the need to do something even though there is no idea what something should be done. So it clearly must be the guns -shrugs- of course you will not agree and I am out of here.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2015, 01:49:16 PM »
Also unless I am sadly mistaken one of the world's most infamous serial killers Jack the Riper came from Britain and used a knife for his dirty work.

  What makes a serial killer (something in every Western country, not just the USA, unlike the school shooting problem) famous is irrelevant for any social consideration like this. Jack isn't one of the most famous serial for killing 5 prostitutes with a knife, there are many more factors, such as Ripper letters he sent to the press, the time period and general arbitrariness in how a society chooses the most interesting figures of history.

I named two specific firearms because we are looking at a time period of over a 100 years. Unless I am mistaken school shootings are a relatively recent phenomena as in the last few decades. Since we had repeating and semi automatic firearms for lets say 70 years before school shootings I would say something else has changed. And of course you will answer with a factoid of your own and not agree with me and tell me how I am all wrong -shrugs-

  That is an interesting point, but my previous one is still relevant: America has school shootings, the rest of the Western World, not so much. So even if school shooting is a recent phenomena, it is still seems to be pretty firmly tied to gun culture.

  Which brings me to another point me as a European frequently considers: Just how many lives is the Second Amendment worth in your opinion. Imagine you could know how many lives would be saved by revealing the second amendment, and thus having gun laws similar to England, or even Canada or Switzerland. How big would that number have to be for the option to be considered an option, or would you keep the Second Amendment no matter the number?

Offline Retribution

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #111 on: October 05, 2015, 01:57:24 PM »
 
  Which brings me to another point me as a European frequently considers: Just how many lives is the Second Amendment worth in your opinion. Imagine you could know how many lives would be saved by revealing the second amendment, and thus having gun laws similar to England, or even Canada or Switzerland. How big would that number have to be for the option to be considered an option, or would you keep the Second Amendment no matter the number?

I am not getting drawn into a debate neither of us shall win. But in answer to your question, my own life for one I would willingly give for the second amendment. Firearms are an integral and intimate part of my life and life style and I have no plans of changing either. So yes, no matter the numbers. You are European and your system works for you. That's fine, I cannot and will not live that way.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #112 on: October 05, 2015, 02:08:35 PM »
I am not getting drawn into a debate neither of us shall win.

  I'm not interesting in winning, I just want to understand you.

But in answer to your question, my own life for one I would willingly give for the second amendment. Firearms are an integral and intimate part of my life and life style and I have no plans of changing either. So yes, no matter the numbers. You are European and your system works for you. That's fine, I cannot and will not live that way.

  This certainty doesn't mesh well with your confession of ignorance such as "I would love to tell people I know what causes this. I do not."

  Also, you cannot live without guns? That sounds disturbing, to me at least. Not necessarily because of the guns, any claim to be unable to live without a physical object like laptops, cars or phones (all of which as a whole influence the general population's life much more than a gun rack) is either hyperbole or signs of an undue attachment.

  Given how many people are made unhappy by gun crime, do you believe that your right to happiness (in this case having guns) supersedes there right to security (reflected in a decreased chance of being murdered, as I pointed out the New York and London figures seem to imply would be the case).

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #113 on: October 05, 2015, 02:19:56 PM »
Quote
  Also, you cannot live without guns? That sounds disturbing, to me at least. Not necessarily because of the guns, any claim to be unable to live without a physical object like laptops, cars or phones (all of which as a whole influence the general population's life much more than a gun rack) is either hyperbole or signs of an undue attachment.

Growing up in a family of diehard 2nd-amendment defenders, I'm very familiar with the attitude even if my own are slightly more ambivalent.

 It's not the physical gun that matters, I think, but the privilege that if he wants to own one, he can.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 02:21:23 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #114 on: October 05, 2015, 02:27:16 PM »
Growing up in a family of diehard 2nd-amendment defenders, I'm very familiar with the attitude even if my own are slightly more ambivalent.

 It's not the physical gun that matters, I think, but the privilege that if he wants to own one, he can.

  Saying you cannot live without the privilege that if you want a car you can own one, still strikes me as worrying and an undue attachment (or hyperbole).

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #115 on: October 05, 2015, 02:34:08 PM »
I fully agree that people like the Columbine shooters and the guy from Oregon would be better classed as 'terrorists'.  Their intent was to do something that caused terror - and for the most part, they succeeded.  It doesn't matter that they don't match the media's depiction of a terrorist.  Sometimes you've got to call a soil-distribution device a spade.

The other thing in the article that spoke to me is that anyone who heard about the plans these people had brushed them off.  They didn't listen.  Could any of them have been turned away from their desire to wreak havoc?  I don't know.  But if someone who heard these plans had taken them seriously, they could have been hindered in their ability to wreak havoc.

And the problem won't go away until we can learn to listen to each other - find some sort of common ground that we can start from.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #116 on: October 05, 2015, 02:57:36 PM »
  Saying you cannot live without the privilege that if you want a car you can own one, still strikes me as worrying and an undue attachment (or hyperbole).

Would you say the same thing about the privilege to criticize your government without being imprisoned/executed, or the right to worship (or not worship) as you choose? The right to not have your possessions and house seized by someone richer/stronger/more influential than you? These are all immaterial things, and so theoretically the same as the privilege to own a gun/car/whatever.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #117 on: October 05, 2015, 03:03:26 PM »
Would you say the same thing about the privilege to criticize your government without being imprisoned/executed, or the right to worship (or not worship) as you choose? The right to not have your possessions and house seized by someone richer/stronger/more influential than you? These are all immaterial things, and so theoretically the same as the privilege to own a gun/car/whatever.

  I don't consider those the equivalent. The equivalent to the right to own a gun is the right to own a car (if anything, the second matters a lot more in everyday life). Someone saying they would be massively inconvenienced and need to quit their job if they couldn't have a car is fair. Someone saying they could not live without a car is either hyperbolic, or someone doesn't understand how life works.

  Plus, my go to point, "Europe exists (and Australia and Canada)". It has all of the above, but no second amendment, so I do not see guns to be as fundamental to Western life.

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #118 on: October 05, 2015, 03:06:19 PM »
The problem that I have is that I don't think more gun control is going to solve the problem.  If I'm not mistaken, the guns used in the last few mass shootings were obtained legally.  Making it harder for law abiding citizens to obtain guns won't keep them out of criminals' hands. 

I saw this the other day and I think it speaks volumes..


I think that is the main reason these wackos pick schools....they know the people there are sitting ducks.  They know that no one there has any possible way to defend themselves.  If there were signs posted on every single school across the nation stating that persons there were trained in and authorized to use deadly force these crazy people might think twice about trying to carry out mass shootings.  If they knew there were armed sharp shooters assigned to every school that could take them out before they could get a single shot fired off, their plans for notoriety would be for naught. 

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #119 on: October 05, 2015, 03:15:23 PM »
I think that is the main reason these wackos pick schools....they know the people there are sitting ducks.  They know that no one there has any possible way to defend themselves.  If there were signs posted on every single school across the nation stating that persons there were trained in and authorized to use deadly force these crazy people might think twice about trying to carry out mass shootings.  If they knew there were armed sharp shooters assigned to every school that could take them out before they could get a single shot fired off, their plans for notoriety would be for naught.

  Regardless of what I think of the picture (It would probably involve Europe), the above is just unfeasible. Yes, banks are defended with guns, but not by sharp shooters 24/7. Besides, Columbine had armed security personal, or at least so I'm told.

Offline Avis habilis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #120 on: October 05, 2015, 03:19:37 PM »
I think that is the main reason these wackos pick schools....they know the people there are sitting ducks.

Nope. To date there's no evidence in any mass shooting case that the attacker chose the location for that reason. My money's on school shooters shooting the schools because that was the scene of whatever incident(s) they perceived as sleights.

Offline Caehlim

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #121 on: October 05, 2015, 06:33:01 PM »
The problem that I have is that I don't think more gun control is going to solve the problem.

Why wouldn't it work in America when it has worked in the rest of the world?

Edit: Changed the phrasing to be a little clearer.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 06:35:13 PM by Caehlim »

Offline Tairis

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #122 on: October 05, 2015, 08:36:23 PM »
Why wouldn't it work in America when it has worked in the rest of the world?

Edit: Changed the phrasing to be a little clearer.

For the same reason it wouldn't work in a country like South Africa. There are millions of handguns alone in the US. Europe has never had the same culture of private modern firearm ownership to the scale that US citizens have had. The only way to remove that many firearms would be confiscation and that would result in significant violence and upheaval.

Nope. To date there's no evidence in any mass shooting case that the attacker chose the location for that reason. My money's on school shooters shooting the schools because that was the scene of whatever incident(s) they perceived as sleights.

Reading that article, the counter point is no less cherry picked than the originally flawed report. Yea, the guy used very flawed logic on some of his points. But throwing in other NOT related data is doing the same thing (there's a reason you exclude crimes that include armed robbery, for example, as it's a completely different situation than a single shooter going in somewhere with intent to kill). It's two sides taking whatever data suits their needs and calling it The Truth.

The concept that a mentally disturbed killer is just going to the first convenient place is nonsense, though. School shootings tend to be unsurprisingly related to events that happened at the school. The guy in Carolina targeted the place he did because he was racist. The incident in Oregon was apparently targeting Christians. These people are capable of using reason, even if its twisted to fit their own warped world views.

In honestly they should all be considered terrorists. But its more politically useful to label them as whatever the people in power want to call them to push their agenda.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 08:38:54 PM by Tairis »

Offline Oniya

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Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #123 on: October 05, 2015, 09:28:41 PM »
The incident in Oregon was apparently targeting Christians.

Doing a Google search of 'Oregon shooter Christians' brings up contradictory reports on this.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: The Virginia Shooting, Gun Rights, and Revolutions (Split from News thread)
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2015, 03:33:02 AM »
Reading that article, the counter point is no less cherry picked than the originally flawed report. Yea, the guy used very flawed logic on some of his points. But throwing in other NOT related data is doing the same thing (there's a reason you exclude crimes that include armed robbery, for example, as it's a completely different situation than a single shooter going in somewhere with intent to kill).
I don't see why mass shootings that happen in the context of an armed robbery or other fellony should be excluded. If the question is "do gun-free zones lead to an increase in mass shootings?" or "do 'good guys with guns' stop shootings?" you have to look at all shootings where there are bystanders. if the question is "what do bystanders do?" it doesn't matter what the intent of the armed fellon is because you are no longer talking about his actions, but about the actions of someone who witnesses a person pointing a gun at someone.