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Author Topic: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates [Poll updated!]  (Read 40678 times)

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Online Oniya

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Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #125 on: September 17, 2015, 12:26:59 AM »
Some would say that Bernie did:

Quote
The evening was really pretty sad. This country and our planet face enormous problems. And the Republican candidates barely touched upon them tonight. And when they did, they were dead wrong on virtually every position they took. The Republican Party cannot be allowed to lead this country.

That's why we need a political revolution.

(https://www.facebook.com/berniesanders/posts/902522473136091)

Online Cassandra LeMay

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #126 on: September 17, 2015, 01:41:32 AM »
At least part of Trump's strong showing in the polls may be due to people more willing to admit to a preference for him, because he is already polling strong (or they just jump on the "winning" bandwagon), while those backing candidates with low poll figures are less willing to admit that they support those candidates, as they don't want to be seen supporting a "loser".

Read a study a couple years ago that analyzed the effect the debates had on the presidential elections and found that voter preference was changed very little by the debates, and that the main reason poll figures changed after the debates was due to a change in willingness to admit to a certain preference, based on who was portrait as the winner or loser of the debate by the media. Perhaps the same effect is at work here as well and the current poll numbers don't show the real picture as well as we might believe.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #127 on: September 17, 2015, 02:14:31 AM »
Apparently Trump even made some bad joke about Jeb Bush's wife. Classy.  ::)

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2015, 08:13:16 AM »
Some would say that Bernie did:

(https://www.facebook.com/berniesanders/posts/902522473136091)

This is why I love Bernie.  He's also stated that he will not run attack ads, nor will he talk badly about his opponent Hillary.  He said  I am not going to get into the game of sitting around attacking Hillary Clinton. We disagree. We are going to have if I have anything to say about it a respectful and intelligent debate.

(source)

Offline eBadger

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2015, 10:48:36 AM »
Apparently Trump even made some bad joke about Jeb Bush's wife. Classy.  ::)

Trump is definitely all about the classy.  Though honestly, the highlights from the debate read like the incidents report from an elementary school recess. 

Read a study a couple years ago that analyzed the effect the debates had on the presidential elections and found that voter preference was changed very little by the debates

I think the tendency is less about changing opinions as much as creating them, especially at this point in the game.  Fiorina, for instance, went from 'who on earth is that?' to front page headlines. 

So, having summed up Trump and following the Bernie segue: why is he so awesome?  I note the heavy support in our own poll, I hear a lot about him, but so far it seems to sum up as "democrat who, unlike Hillary, has some charisma." 

Offline Merah

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2015, 10:55:52 AM »
So, having summed up Trump and following the Bernie segue: why is he so awesome?  I note the heavy support in our own poll, I hear a lot about him, but so far it seems to sum up as "democrat who, unlike Hillary, has some charisma." 

Less that and more "Democrat who, unlike Hillary, doesn't belong to big money and is intent on repealing on Citizens United." Americans don't like having their government bought out by a few plutocrats.

Also, Hillary is just *so* packaged and artificial, not to mention entitled.

Offline eBadger

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2015, 12:00:54 PM »
Less that and more "Democrat who, unlike Hillary, doesn't belong to big money

Well...not to be too cynical, but nobody goes to the white house without money.  The difference between legitimate support and being a sellout usually revolves around whether one agrees with their politics.  But, yes-

and is intent on repealing on Citizens United." Americans don't like having their government bought out by a few plutocrats.

Controversial ruling is controversial, sure.  I think most of us would like to see a bit less corporate involvement in elections. 

Also, Hillary is just *so* packaged and artificial, not to mention entitled.

*Nods* Yeah, that I totally get, and it sums her up well.  She's been hovering on the edge of the corporate stage for so long it's a bit bewildering that she doesn't seem to have a defining agenda nor a clear personality, and it feels like the consistence preference for someone else ought to get through at some point.  We like you, Hillary, but we don't like you...she's been politically friend-zoned. 

But back to Bernie - is this just trying for an Obama repeat, a hip junior politician do-gooder who is leading us on an idealistic journey through the drudgery of American politics?

Online Oniya

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Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2015, 12:09:52 PM »
Trump is definitely all about the classy.  Though honestly, the highlights from the debate read like the incidents report from an elementary school recess. 

You aren't the only one to think that.

So, having summed up Trump and following the Bernie segue: why is he so awesome?  I note the heavy support in our own poll, I hear a lot about him, but so far it seems to sum up as "democrat who, unlike Hillary, has some charisma."

I could post a slew of links to answer this, but I'm going to go off the cuff.  If you want, I've already posted some links to Bernie speaking in his own words.  Bernie speaks to the common man.  He identifies the problems that are, in fact, affecting our nation as a whole:  crumbling infrastructure, a crumbling middle class, a crumbling education system.  He isn't 'bought and paid for' by SuperPACs or by the Koch brothers - his campaign is funded by something like 80% small donations.  As a Senator, his personal net worth is among the lowest - this is someone who flies coach to his stumping venues, not someone who has a private jet drop him off. 

More importantly, he has a plan.  A plan to move spending from places where it's not doing any good to places where it can help our country grow - like our infrastructure, our education system, and our middle class.  He supports a 'living wage' instead of the starvation wage that many people are currently working under.  He doesn't claim it's going to be a magic pill.  In fact, he consistently says that he will need us, the American people, to pull together in order to make this work.  That's a key word - together.  He doesn't try to divide the voters against each other with the specter of 'the Other'.  He is inviting us - all of us - to vote for ourselves and not for some lobbying campaign. 

Although I'm writing this off the cuff, I keep getting flashes of quotes from previous leaders that would not be out of place in Bernie's campaign - nor do I think that the original speakers would object to them being used:  'We do not do these things because they are easy.  We do them because they are hard.'  'We have nothing to fear but fear itself.'  And one other - not from a former leader: 

This one is a little long.  Oops.
Quote
I don't have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It's a depression. Everybody's out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel's worth; banks are going bust; shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter; punks are running wild in the street, and there's nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there's no end to it.

We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat. And we sit watching our TVs while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that's the way it's supposed to be!

We all know things are bad -- worse than bad -- they're crazy.

It's like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don't go out any more. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we're living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, "Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials, and I won't say anything. Just leave us alone."

Well, I'm not going to leave you alone.

I want you to get mad!

I don't want you to protest. I don't want you to riot. I don't want you to write to your Congressman, because I wouldn't know what to tell you to write. I don't know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians Middle East and the crime in the street. All I know is that first, you've got to get mad.   You've gotta say, "I'm a human being, goddammit! My life has value!"

So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell, "I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not going to take this anymore!!"

That's Bernie in a nutshell.


Offline Cycle

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #133 on: September 17, 2015, 12:23:38 PM »
I watched that debate last night and overall...   I'd give it a "meh."  Fiornia performed well, as did Christie, imho.  But Fiornia's war-like tendencies scared the bejeszus outta me.  Her plan is basically to go isolationist, ramp out the military big time, and that'll show Putin who's boss.  O.o  Yeah.  Er...  No thank you.  I want no part of that brilliant scheme.

Carson blew it.  He was a hole in the air.  I don't remember him doing anything.

Trump was typical Trump.  Par for the course.  Imho, he didn't win or lose anything.  3.0 clearly went in there thinking one thing:  "I gotta show Trump I've got a bigger d*ck."  And that's what he did all night.  Act like a big d*ck.  Didn't help him.

The rest...  I dunno.  I think they were there maybe?  I vaguely recall them opening their mouth once or twice?  But then my cat decided she wanted to play so my attention shifted.

I am pretty sure I'm passing on the next debate.  I'll just watch the highlight reel on YouTube.


Offline Merah

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2015, 06:32:10 PM »
Well...not to be too cynical, but nobody goes to the white house without money.  The difference between legitimate support and being a sellout usually revolves around whether one agrees with their politics.  But, yes-

That's not true in this case. Hillary Clinton is receiving hundreds of millions of dollars from SuperPACs funded by corporate elite. Sanders disavows SuperPACs completely and as Oniya pointed out, his campaign is mainly funded by small individual donations.

Quote
But back to Bernie - is this just trying for an Obama repeat, a hip junior politician do-gooder who is leading us on an idealistic journey through the drudgery of American politics?

Bernie Sanders is not a hip junior politician with a personality cult. He's a cranky old man who is the longest serving independent in Congressional history. Sanders is a man with a long record of sticking to his principles. What he's saying now is not anything he hasn't been saying for a long time, but with the Citizens United decision opening up elections to unlimited amounts of big money influence, his stance against big money has become incredibly important.

Offline CaptainOrange

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #135 on: September 17, 2015, 08:05:09 PM »
Well I've said it once and I'll say it again, Bernie Sanders is the only candidate that any sensible person would let into the white house. We've got warmongering, fear mongering, homophobes on the right who deny science, and on the left competing against Sanders we have some old bag who pretends to care about the people, but who'll gladly sell us out to appease her corporate masters just like any of the conservatives. Honestly, if Sanders doesn't win the primaries, I'm going to write his name in during the general election.

Offline auroraChloe

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #136 on: September 17, 2015, 10:56:05 PM »
Bernie Sanders is not a hip junior politician with a personality cult. He's a cranky old man who is the longest serving independent in Congressional history. Sanders is a man with a long record of sticking to his principles. What he's saying now is not anything he hasn't been saying for a long time, but with the Citizens United decision opening up elections to unlimited amounts of big money influence, his stance against big money has become incredibly important.

yes, all of this.  my concern is he'd be stonewalled and blocked from making any progress.  pretty much like the past 8 years; blocking for blocking's sake.  he'd be crippled then, so he may be able to do more good from where he is now.  though it would will be nice to vote for someone rather than against the 'greater evil'. 

Offline Cycle

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #137 on: September 17, 2015, 11:24:10 PM »
Just heard about this little gem.

Awesome!


Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #138 on: September 18, 2015, 08:11:09 AM »
Well I've said it once and I'll say it again, Bernie Sanders is the only candidate that any sensible person would let into the white house.

(emphasis mine)

Please don't make blanket statements like that.  Who a person votes for has no bearing on whether they are 'sensible' or not.   

Offline elone

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #139 on: September 18, 2015, 09:05:41 AM »
After watching the Republican debate again I can truly say I am frightened. Only Kasich of the whole bunch doesn't come across as some kind of nut case. Just my opinion. These people are just way to extreme in their military tendencies, religious fanaticism, homophobic beliefs, opposition to peoples rights, and just plain crazy. I might even take Trump over most of them. At least he admits he doesn't know it all and will surround himself with people who do.

Go Bernie!

Offline Merah

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #140 on: September 18, 2015, 11:12:38 AM »
Honestly, if Sanders doesn't win the primaries, I'm going to write his name in during the general election.

I'm also considering doing this. The Democratic Party needs to get the message that we will no longer blindly accept whatever corporate-approved candidate they hand us.

Offline Merah

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #141 on: September 18, 2015, 11:14:28 AM »
Who a person votes for has no bearing on whether they are 'sensible' or not.   

I wouldn't say 'no bearing'... but yes, you can be sensible and still make a mistake. :D

Offline Mithlomwen

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Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #142 on: September 18, 2015, 11:58:52 AM »
I wouldn't say 'no bearing'... but yes, you can be sensible and still make a mistake. :D

If a person votes for the candidate that they feel best represents their view of the world, it is not for you, nor anyone else, to label that choice a 'mistake'.  Even jokingly. 

Everyone has their own beliefs and values.  It is not fair for someone to joke around or belittle their choice simply because you (not you personally, just in general) think they are wrong. 

Offline eBadger

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #143 on: September 18, 2015, 12:03:17 PM »
I wouldn't say 'no bearing'... but yes, you can be sensible and still make a mistake. :D

It's usually more constructive to acknowledge that others simply have different values.  More respectful, and also easier to change their minds when you have a reasonable debate than by dismissing them as not sensible. 

Meh.  So far the thought of any of the Republicans as president frankly scares me, and few of them even seem capable of addressing real issues.  I'm still really not liking the choice between career bystander Clinton and Sanders who, while nicely idealistic, sounds so far like he has grand plans and no real political clout to carry them out.  I already facepalmed all through the health care shenanigans, so not really excited about that. 

I think no matter what happens, I'm going to chalk the next four years up as a political loss. 

Offline Kurzyk

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #144 on: September 18, 2015, 04:51:06 PM »
After watching the Republican debate again I can truly say I am frightened. Only Kasich of the whole bunch doesn't come across as some kind of nut case. Just my opinion. These people are just way to extreme in their military tendencies, religious fanaticism, homophobic beliefs, opposition to peoples rights, and just plain crazy. I might even take Trump over most of them. At least he admits he doesn't know it all and will surround himself with people who do.

Go Bernie!

What scares me more is the huge amount of the country supporting them.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #145 on: September 18, 2015, 06:24:47 PM »
What scares me more is the huge amount of the country supporting them.

If it's any consolation, a significant majority of those supporters are older, according to pretty much every source I can find. Looking at these demographics, there is a pretty consistent linear trend of younger voters voting Democrat. Old people are set in their ways; Obama's campaign was all about Change, and they fear change - they want the world to be how they learned it to be.

http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/polls/us-elections/how-groups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/11/05/as-gop-celebrates-win-no-sign-of-narrowing-gender-age-gaps/

Offline CaptainOrange

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #146 on: September 18, 2015, 06:30:14 PM »
If a person votes for the candidate that they feel best represents their view of the world, it is not for you, nor anyone else, to label that choice a 'mistake'.  Even jokingly. 

Everyone has their own beliefs and values.  It is not fair for someone to joke around or belittle their choice simply because you (not you personally, just in general) think they are wrong.

I'm pretty sure there's a limit there. If I were to vote a white supremacist into office because I believed that all nonwhites, gays, jews, etc. need to be exterminated I'm pretty sure you'd have an obligation to belittle and put down my views and beliefs.

Offline Cycle

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #147 on: September 18, 2015, 06:36:41 PM »
So during the debate, Fiorina tried to make a big speech attacking Planned Parenthood.  To me, it looked forced.  Worse, she came across as vicious, rather than strong.  But the facts checkers have revealed a bigger problem for Fiorina. 

She was lying about the video.

Nice one.  Build you big moment on a lie.  Who came up with this moronic strategy?


Offline Merah

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #148 on: September 18, 2015, 06:49:04 PM »
I'm pretty sure there's a limit there. If I were to vote a white supremacist into office because I believed that all nonwhites, gays, jews, etc. need to be exterminated I'm pretty sure you'd have an obligation to belittle and put down my views and beliefs.

This. Not that you couldn't still be respectful to facilitate a process of discussion, but there are limits on what can be considered sensible (not that I'm saying anyone here is unsensible).

Offline Merah

Re: The Big Thread For the USA 2016 Presidential Candidates
« Reply #149 on: September 18, 2015, 06:58:38 PM »
If a person votes for the candidate that they feel best represents their view of the world, it is not for you, nor anyone else, to label that choice a 'mistake'.  Even jokingly. 

Everyone has their own beliefs and values.  It is not fair for someone to joke around or belittle their choice simply because you (not you personally, just in general) think they are wrong.

Just by voicing your own opinion (on the Presidential race or anything), you make it clear that you think those with contrary opinions are wrong/mistaken. But respectful discussion of those disagreements is key to a healthy political culture.