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Author Topic: Confederate Flag  (Read 2830 times)

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Offline ShadowFox89

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2015, 09:52:02 PM »
Sigh.

You do realize that the American Flag is Racist and responsible for a lot of hate and deaths of other races?

If we want to go about pointing fingers of racism, why not start with Old Glory?

Old Glory who is responsible for the deaths of many Native Americans.
Old Glory who is responsible for slavery going on for over a hundred years.
Old Glory who is responsible for the deaths and injuries of many African-Americans after the civil war(remember Martin Luther King days?)
Old Glory who had many active groups of the KKK using it and recognizing it as the national symbol other than the 'Confederate Flag.'

A Confederate flag that only reign four years receives more hate than an American Flag which has the longest history of blood and tyranny on its hands. Give me break.

 I could say the same of the British Flag, and numerous native peoples of lands, the French, Russian, or Italian flags as well.

 However, there's a major difference. Those nations? Still around. There is no such thing as the Confederate States of America. It does not exist, and hopefully will not exist again.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2015, 10:09:51 PM »
I find it ironic that people want to ban the flag of a man who released all his slaves before the war. Ironic because racists picked it up, and because people want to ban it for its oppressive legacy.

I would also find it hilarious if they pulled them down and put up the actual Stars and Bars that IO pointed out (which I had forgotten for whatever reason to my chagrin.)

However, much like how the Australian flag has a mini-Union Jack in it, many state flags also contain mini-Lee Battle Flags, so are we going to ban those next? Does the government not get to enjoy freedom of expression. That is to say, are the rights of the people that choose the government diminished if that chosen by the people aspect is so subverted? Interesting questions.

*Wanders off to ponder*

EDIT: Also for the record I don't buy the the nation doesn't exist it doesn't have the right to have itself preserved. Let's look at the bloody, debauched and glorious, wondrous, and magnificent Roman Empire and how much the Western world still wants to live up to that legacy. A legacy that had slavery and all that jazz (though I'll acknowledge the difference in the types of slavery employed so save time and don't bring it up. I understand it completely).

I don't know, maybe if we lost the Revolutionary War we'd live in a world where Britain wouldn't let us fly Old Glory to remember the forlorn days of the lost fires of independence and rebellion, but I like living in a world where people are given that freedom of expression.

Winners get to write the after-action report. *shrugs*
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 10:15:32 PM by Inkidu »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2015, 10:59:05 PM »
However, much like how the Australian flag has a mini-Union Jack in it, many state flags also contain mini-Lee Battle Flags, so are we going to ban those next? Does the government not get to enjoy freedom of expression. That is to say, are the rights of the people that choose the government diminished if that chosen by the people aspect is so subverted? Interesting questions.
Is a government a person? And... yeah, those probably need at least a good hard look - the one that springs to my mind was chosen as a segregationist statement.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2015, 11:03:24 PM »
many state flags also contain mini-Lee Battle Flags

Actually just Mississippi so far as I can see.

State Flags of the US

« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 11:04:38 PM by Caehlim »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2015, 11:09:01 PM »
Is a government a person? And... yeah, those probably need at least a good hard look - the one that springs to my mind was chosen as a segregationist statement.
Corporations are people in this country. :P

The point being that a government by the people is supposed to embody the will of the people. If anything it should have come to a vote, not simple capitulation to one side or the other because they shouted a bunch.

EDIT: Okay, so what if it's just Mississippi? How do you think that vote'd go?



Offline Caehlim

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2015, 11:21:28 PM »
EDIT: Okay, so what if it's just Mississippi? How do you think that vote'd go?

Sorry, that was just a pedantic reflex. I wasn't trying to disprove your argument there.

I don't think I have the cultural qualifications to comment on this issue. I'm not American and we don't have anything near the same relationship with our flag(s).

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2015, 11:27:37 PM »
Sorry, that was just a pedantic reflex. I wasn't trying to disprove your argument there.

I don't think I have the cultural qualifications to comment on this issue. I'm not American and we don't have anything near the same relationship with our flag(s).
Well at it's core a flag is a symbol. A symbol is simultaneously what it physically is and what it represents that isn't physical. So making Mississippi take down the flag would be a pretty big thing. Because there would be a difference between making a government building take down a flag with no state affiliation, and then making a state in the union remove their state flag because it has a confederate battle flag in it.

So either the movement to remove battle flags faces a real obstacle and loses, they didn't really believe all that hard in the cause to begin with (bringing their first victory back into the spotlight more likely than not), or Mississippi is forced to take down the flag, and that's not going to end well either.

I'm just saying there's a lot of political tinder on this issue if it's pressed or not. Almost seems like that situation in chess where you're fine where you are but if you move you're boned no matter what you do.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2015, 11:36:51 PM »
Actually just Mississippi so far as I can see.

State Flags of the US

Mississippi does have the rebel flag as part of it's state flag. Georgia, on the other hand, has the Stars and Bars with the addition of some emblem in the center of the stars. Seems that would be far more offensive than a battle flag.

Offline CriminalMindsFan

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2015, 11:39:29 PM »
If the PC police really want to get it right, they should ask all non-American Indians including themselves to leave the USA and give back the land to the American Indians. Perhaps allow every state to leave the union until we have 13 again as a starting point to give the land back?

Offline Maiz

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #59 on: June 27, 2015, 11:43:30 PM »
If the PC police really want to get it right, they should ask all non-American Indians including themselves to leave the USA and give back the land to the American Indians. Perhaps allow every state to leave the union until we have 13 again as a starting point to give the land back?

Returning land and respecting sovereignty of the indigenous nations within the US would actually be really awesome, so...

Offline CriminalMindsFan

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2015, 11:47:03 PM »
Returning land and respecting sovereignty of the indigenous nations within the US would actually be really awesome, so...

My thinking was we'd also have to experience everything in the past again to get back to the way things were before the founding of the USA. That would mean reliving slavery, all the wars and battles that led to where were are at now.

Basically, hit a reverse button and everyone gets younger and unborn. LOL

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2015, 11:56:31 PM »
My thinking was we'd also have to experience everything in the past again to get back to the way things were before the founding of the USA. That would mean reliving slavery, all the wars and battles that led to where were are at now.

Basically, hit a reverse button and everyone gets younger and unborn. LOL

I liked the idea of getting younger.. but the whole being unborn thing would suck. The having to go through everything we already eff'd up again would suck majorly floppy donkey balls.

Offline Dice

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #62 on: June 28, 2015, 12:07:38 AM »
I don't think I have the cultural qualifications to comment on this issue. I'm not American and we don't have anything near the same relationship with our flag(s).
Ask a union rep what he thinks of the Eurkia Flag. I think you will find that we do.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #63 on: June 28, 2015, 12:10:01 AM »
Corporations are people in this country. :P

The point being that a government by the people is supposed to embody the will of the people. If anything it should have come to a vote, not simple capitulation to one side or the other because they shouted a bunch.[/quote]But raising it in the name of segregation was fine because enough members of government happened to be bigots at the time? Or... is this simply correcting a problematic act?

And I'm reasonably sure we're on the same page here, but corporations-as-people has already gone way too far, and government-as-corporation is a terrible, terrible model.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #64 on: June 28, 2015, 12:11:47 AM »
If the PC police really want to get it right, they should ask all non-American Indians including themselves to leave the USA and give back the land to the American Indians. Perhaps allow every state to leave the union until we have 13 again as a starting point to give the land back?

Doesn't seem feasible. There's no guarantee the European countries could take that many people back, especially given how few of them would still retain citizenship at this point. Families of mixed ancestry would be torn apart. The relatively low population of Native Americans remaining wouldn't be numerous enough to maintain the infrastructure of the United States, fight fires in the cities, maintain nuclear power plants, etc. Traditional ways of life and skills have been lost, preventing the Native Americans from returning to previous ways of life assuming that they actually want to. With the smaller population and vastly reduced military there would be the potential risk of military expansion up from South and Central America (probably justified with the history of the Mexican-American war).

While Native Americans are still suffering the effect of European invasion, this doesn't seem the best way to solve it. It's an interesting idea and I get the sentiment behind it. But it doesn't seem either achievable or even all that beneficial for anyone. It also privileges racial history over people's actual experience with many Americans born in the country and having a lifetime of connections there. While it may not go back as far as the native population, it would still mean forceably removing people from the only home they've ever known.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #65 on: June 28, 2015, 07:26:03 AM »
The point being that a government by the people is supposed to embody the will of the people. If anything it should have come to a vote, not simple capitulation to one side or the other because they shouted a bunch.But raising it in the name of segregation was fine because enough members of government happened to be bigots at the time? Or... is this simply correcting a problematic act?

And I'm reasonably sure we're on the same page here, but corporations-as-people has already gone way too far, and government-as-corporation is a terrible, terrible model.
Yes, but the great thing about living in a democratic society is that you get to vote for less bigoted people next time around as the country's opinion shifts. Will of the people and all that. I think shouting until they remove something you don't like is childish.

I mean was there even a petition?

Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #66 on: June 28, 2015, 10:00:32 AM »
I mean was there even a petition?

There's been more than a petition.  Google "lawsuits confederate flag."  There have been efforts to remove that flag for years.  The Charleston murders were not the only reason that flag is now coming down.  It's just the most recent, most high-profile symbol.

Here is a history concerning South Carolina, listing some of the efforts to remove it

North Carolina's experience with putting up that flag

Quote
David Goldfield, a history professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte and author of the book "Still Fighting the Civil War," said the battle flag can hold starkly different meanings depending on a person's social perspective.

"The history of the Confederate battle flag, how it was designed and formulated, how it has been used through the years, clearly states that it is a flag of white supremacy," Goldfield said. "I know current Sons of Confederate Veterans would dispute that, saying `Hey, I'm not a racist.' But the fact remains that the battle flag was used by a country that had as its foundation the protection and extension of human bondage."

The NCAA has banned that flag since 2001

A lawsuit against Alabama to remove that flag

Quote
The Confederate battle flag had flown over the Alabama state capitol since 1963. Raised by then-Governor George Wallace, it flew as a symbol of his defiance during the struggles of the 1960s to end segregation. Nearly thirty years later, the Center won a lawsuit to remove the flag from the capitol dome.

Gawker comments concerning Mississippi's history with that flag

Ole Miss' experience with the benefits of removing that flag

Quote
Over time, people began to see that the benefit of not having that flag tied to our university, or vice versa, was far more valuable than the enjoyment that anybody received from waving that flag," he said. "It was measurably destructive to the university."

At the end of the day, I think what a lot of people want to see is that flag removed from government buildings and institutions.  If a bunch of guys want to wave it around a field on a Sunday while they roleplay a Civil War battle and drink beer, I think most folks would say "fine."  (Though they may laugh if the guys were using the wrong flag for the armies they were trying to portray...)

« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 10:01:48 AM by Cycle »

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #67 on: June 28, 2015, 10:08:12 AM »
          The MoveOn petition directed at the South Carolina government, now has over half a million.

      Though Inkidu, I have a feeling you might be more interested in petitions for a simultaneous removal of a monument to the African-American experience on the SC state grounds in the event of removal of the flag (can't imagine there could be any racism involved there, sarcasm intended!)...  Or perhaps -- if this thing is even real, I can't tell after all the other raving on the site -- the petition for SC to secede in the event of the present flag being removed (which supposedly has over 100,000 signatures too)?

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #68 on: June 28, 2015, 10:59:47 AM »
No one has tried to tell you how to feel. Feel offended if you want. But no one should have to give you everything you want because you are offended. Period.
where the hell are you getting this from? I didnt ask for shit. I said i dont like and it makes me uncomfortable. Now back off.

Offline Blythe

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #69 on: June 28, 2015, 11:59:06 AM »
Now is a good time to remember cute adorable kittens



and take a breather from the thread if frustrations are getting high.  :-X

Offline eternaldarkness

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #70 on: June 28, 2015, 07:16:55 PM »
I'm just going to briefly comment here.

As an american soldier and a black man, I have long ago pledged to lay down my life in service of my country if need be. I made this choice because I am an American. I have lost friends who were black and white and asian and native american and everything else under the sun. My friends did not die so that self-proclaimed'rebels' could fly the flag of a defeated enemy over public buildings and use it as a rallying symbol to support a doctrine of hate and oppression.

The confederate flag is not appropriate to fly over any government structure. Whatever it meant in the past does not matter. What it means now, today, matters. And today it stands for hate, dissent, and division.

So by all means if you as a private citizen want to fly it on your property, paint it on your vehicle or tattoo it on your body, you have that right and I will defend that right to the death.

But in choosing to do so, everyone will know you for what you are. For good or ill.

That is all.

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #71 on: June 28, 2015, 08:10:37 PM »
I'm just going to briefly comment here.

As an american soldier and a black man, I have long ago pledged to lay down my life in service of my country if need be. I made this choice because I am an American. I have lost friends who were black and white and asian and native american and everything else under the sun. My friends did not die so that self-proclaimed'rebels' could fly the flag of a defeated enemy over public buildings and use it as a rallying symbol to support a doctrine of hate and oppression.

The confederate flag is not appropriate to fly over any government structure. Whatever it meant in the past does not matter. What it means now, today, matters. And today it stands for hate, dissent, and division.

So by all means if you as a private citizen want to fly it on your property, paint it on your vehicle or tattoo it on your body, you have that right and I will defend that right to the death.

But in choosing to do so, everyone will know you for what you are. For good or ill.

That is all.

Perfect.

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #72 on: June 28, 2015, 08:37:53 PM »
I'm just going to briefly comment here.

As an american soldier and a black man, I have long ago pledged to lay down my life in service of my country if need be. I made this choice because I am an American. I have lost friends who were black and white and asian and native american and everything else under the sun. My friends did not die so that self-proclaimed'rebels' could fly the flag of a defeated enemy over public buildings and use it as a rallying symbol to support a doctrine of hate and oppression.

The confederate flag is not appropriate to fly over any government structure. Whatever it meant in the past does not matter. What it means now, today, matters. And today it stands for hate, dissent, and division.

So by all means if you as a private citizen want to fly it on your property, paint it on your vehicle or tattoo it on your body, you have that right and I will defend that right to the death.

But in choosing to do so, everyone will know you for what you are. For good or ill.

That is all.

^^  Couldn't have said it better.    Thank you <3

Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #73 on: June 28, 2015, 08:40:12 PM »
I agree.

Thank you, eternaldarkness.


Offline Sho

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #74 on: June 29, 2015, 01:55:09 PM »
Thanks, eternaldarkness. I think that perfectly sums up the argument.