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Author Topic: Confederate Flag  (Read 2828 times)

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Offline Zakharra

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 08:16:26 PM »
 On a somewhat related note, the Jefferson Memorial in Richmond was vandalized: http://www.richmond.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/article_251992bb-cf9a-58e6-9bcd-ec4d50dede87.html
 I have heard snippets on the radio that some blacks (what are we who aren't black supposed to call those who do have black skin? I prefer the general term 'American', but some people seem to insist on having a color/ethnic identity before the American part) want to have the Washington Memorial and those of the Founding Fathers that owned slaves.  That seems like an overreaction and suspiciously close to censorship when one tries to remove all mention of monuments to important historical and national figures.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2015, 08:21:25 PM »
But the modern American flag is not and never has been shorthand for "KKK", in the way that the confederate flag has been shorthand for "white supremacy". By flying that flag, a government endorses the concepts for which it stands - which, in the eyes of a lot of people, including the supporters that first popularized it, begin with "white superiority".

Shorthanding is in the means of the Government itself. The Confederate Flag was never about 'white supremacy' it was a movement to isolate itself and become an independent nation just as the Americans have seceded from England. They desired their freedom to do as they wish, because 'American was suppose to be a land of the free.'  The Confederate Flag was a symbol of independence, but like all symbols of independence, it could be taken as a symbol of 'treachery' as well for those it stood against, just as we were treacherous towards England in the past. In modern day, I do not see England shorthanding us for something as we are accusing another flag for. The supporters that popularized it? Who? The Southern Armies that used the flag when serving the military in World War II? Dukes of Hazzard? The Confederate Flag did not have a second coming around since both events.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2015, 08:39:42 PM »
'American was suppose to be a land of the free.'

Isn't that lyric a reference to land of the free slave, home of the Native American brave? Not just rejoicing in two abstract concepts and thinking that liberty and courage are pretty sweet?

I don't know for sure, I'm not American... it just makes a lot more sense that way.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2015, 08:42:18 PM »
Shorthanding is in the means of the Government itself. The Confederate Flag was never about 'white supremacy' it was a movement to isolate itself and become an independent nation just as the Americans have seceded from England.
Never? Never ever? Were you here for the discussion of how it was popularized?

They desired their freedom to do as they wish, because 'American was suppose to be a land of the free.'
Silly question: If a federal government forbidding slavery was intolerable tyranny (see secession statements above), and if it was all about the freedom of the states to do as they wish, why was a federal government mandating slavery A-OK? Why were states not free to choose not to have slavery in the CSA?


The Confederate Flag was a symbol of independence, but like all symbols of independence, it could be taken as a symbol of 'treachery' as well for those it stood against, just as we were treacherous towards England in the past. In modern day, I do not see England shorthanding us for something as we are accusing another flag for. The supporters that popularized it? Who? The Southern Armies that used the flag when serving the military in World War II? Dukes of Hazzard? The Confederate Flag did not have a second coming around since both events.
It became a rallying symbol for segregationists in 1948, and continued to explicitly serve this function at a governmental level through at at least 1963. This was covered upthread. So, to summarize:

  • It was used by a military unit whose nation identified primarily and extensively with slavery.
  • It was then adapted for use by the government that formed around the issue of slavery.
  • It then lay fallow until a racist cause needed a symbol to rally around.
  • It was adopted on explicitly racist grounds by two state governments.
  • And now people are loudly saying it has nothing to do with racism.

Can you see how those claims ring a little false?

EDIT: Added a point on the use of the flag by Georgia and Alabama.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:51:46 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #29 on: June 26, 2015, 08:52:52 PM »
You kidding me? Look at Ku Klux Klan pictures, many of them can also be seen waving an American Flag.

I think you missed the point.  Those articles talk about how the flag has been used in modern times--i.e., used well after the Civil War.  Look up Strom Thurmond, Dixiecrats, George Wallace.  Read this article concerning the history of that flag. 

Quote
The rebel flag's resurgence came long after the Civil War

After the Civil War ended, the battle flag turned up here and there only occasionally -- at events to commemorate fallen soldiers.

So, when did the flag explode into prominence? It was during the struggle for civil rights for black Americans, in the middle of the 20th century.

The first burst may have been in 1948. South Carolina politician Strom Thurmond ran for president under the newly founded States Rights Democratic Party, also known as the Dixiecrats. The party's purpose was clear: "We stand for the segregation of the races," said Article 4 of its platform.

And this piece.

Quote
It was in this environment that Georgia’s present state flag was born.  Aside from the token resistance, every legislator publicly supported preserving segregation in Georgia.  The legislators of 1956 were so determined and desperate to maintain segregation that they were willing to abandon Georgia’s public schools to avoid integration.  They also supported a vast array of legislation which maintained segregated state parks, golf courses, swimming pools, and recreation facilities as well as intrastate transportation facilities.  And in case any police officer became “confused” about enforcing segregation laws, the General Assembly passed a law revoking the retirement benefits of any law enforcement officer who failed or refused to enforce any segregation law.  These legislators, who supported the self-destructive segregation plans in defiance of the U.S. Supreme Court’s Brown decision, also gave their support to changing the state flag to incorporate the Confederate battle flag. Their vehement segregation-at-all-cost stance compelled the North Georgia Tribune to comment that “we dislike the spirit which hatched out the new flag, and we don’t believe Robert E. Lee ... would like it either.”

That flag has been used by people for purposes other than to honor the Civil War soldiers. 

The fact that you may have only used that flag to honor the Civil War fallen does not erase the history of how others have used it.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 08:54:23 PM by Cycle »

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2015, 03:30:52 PM »
Dear sweet merciful Gods please please please stop calling it the "Confederate Flag". It is the Rebel flag. Or, if you want to get very technical with it, it's appropriate name is "The Stainless Banner".

Now.

Say Hello to the Confederate Flag for the Confederate States of Amercia aka "The Stars and Bars"




Not the same flag is it?

Matter of fact, the flag everyone is crapping themselves over was never used as a "national" flag for the Confederate States of America. Nope. That flag was the battle flag of Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia. (Anyone ever watch Dukes of Hazard? Remember the car with the big ole Rebel flag on top of it? Remember the name of the car? The General Lee) Designed by the Confederate politician William Porcher Miles, the flag was rejected for use as the Confederacy’s official emblem, although it was incorporated into the two later flags as a canton. It only came to be the flag most prominently associated with the Confederacy after the South lost the war.

I am sick to death of no one actually researching to figure out just what exactly they are offended of. That battle flag is part of American history. I've seen blacks wearing t-shirts with it on them. I've seen blacks waving it just like whites. If we start banning everything that offends people soon we won't be able to open our freaking mouths to speak.

Leave the freaking flag where it is for crying out loud.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2015, 03:56:36 PM »
I'm glad its not waving around in state anymore. it makes me uncomfortable to see people with it tattooed on their arms, stickers on their cars, or waving it in front of their houses. I don't trust people with it and this country loves waving its fucking hate all over the place.

and then there are black fools like this.

http://us.tomonews.net/244420179935232?utm_source=Facebook+NMAtv&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=062715+black+student+kkk

Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2015, 03:59:41 PM »
I am sick to death of no one actually researching to figure out just what exactly they are offended of.

Some of us have.  And we know that a lot of people offended not because of the Civil War implications but because that flag was used by Segregationists in the Civil Rights era, to show defiance and refusal to accept things such as the Brown decision.  (Kind of like how some Southern States are responding to Obergefell today...)

Your post actually does an excellent job of debunking the argument that removing that flag is "disrespectful" of the Confederate soldiers killed in the Civil War.  That is, if folks want to erect memorials to those soldiers, perhaps they should use the right flag instead of using--in your words--a flag that was "never used as a 'national' flag for the Confederate States of America."

« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 04:15:42 PM by Cycle »

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2015, 04:05:38 PM »
So, you judge a person untrustworthy because they have a rebel flag on them/their car/in front of their house? And yet, whites are accused of being racist because we don't trust black men with their pants around their knees, we don't trust certain neighborhoods, etc.

A flag does not make a person racist nor untrustworthy. And again... "I'm offended" has become the new battle cry of this country. As I told my mother when she bitched about the supreme court. "At some point, you have to take a deep breath, pull up your big girl panties and deal with it." I'm not removing the rebel flag from anything I own that has it because I have a right to express my pride in my southern heritage just as much as anyone who is offended has a right to express that they are offended.

Just because someone is offended doesn't mean they get what they want and I think this country has forgotten that. Scream it to the heavens that you are offended by it... but then deal with it and move on.

And.. Cycle, I never said that removing it was disrespectful of the veterans of the Confederate States of America. I am not sure who said it, but it wasn't me.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 04:07:13 PM by Iniquitous Opheliac »

Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2015, 04:13:31 PM »
Cycle, I never said that removing it was disrespectful of the veterans of the Confederate States of America. I am not sure who said it, but it wasn't me.

I didn't say you did.  I just found it worth noting that your post debunks the argument raised by others above.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 04:14:45 PM by Cycle »

Offline Aethereal

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2015, 04:15:20 PM »
       Do I have a positive opinion of the people toting the flag? Not necessarily (depends on context and *which* flag we're speaking of).
       Do I approve of related censorship? No. It's part of history, and it wasn't only used with ill agenda. (It's even worse with things like the swastika - the swastika isn't inherently a Nazi symbol, the Nazi appropriated it. In my country, there are probably as many people of Eastern religions as there are Christians, for one, and it's an important symbol in many of those...)

       Things get especially ridiculous when we start banning (or removing from stores) historical games which have depictions of the flag in it (even if it, in that context, was really used). As for everyone else? Let them glue stickers and wave flags if they want; as long as they're not actively harming someone or rallying some kind of negative law adjustments, there isn't a reason to do anything against them. It's always preferable to remove stigmas than it is to taboo things (unless someone is being harmed).

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2015, 04:52:54 PM »
Lmao. Did i just get attacked? Your reasons for wanting the flag are yours alone. I dont have to like it. It makes me uncomfortable and sorry, not sorrg but it seems that there are plenty of white people who just hate my exsistence for having melanin. Im allowed to be offended and i have a right to. You do not get to tell me how to feel otherwise.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 04:58:10 PM by la dame en noir »

Online Oniya

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2015, 05:14:33 PM »
Your post actually does an excellent job of debunking the argument that removing that flag is "disrespectful" of the Confederate soldiers killed in the Civil War.  That is, if folks want to erect memorials to those soldiers, perhaps they should use the right flag instead of using--in your words--a flag that was "never used as a 'national' flag for the Confederate States of America."

Mr. Oniya (who has done Civil War re-enactment) suggested that the 'removed Civil War games' could easily be restored with the simple patch of replacing the battle flag image file with an actual CSA flag image file..

Offline Aethereal

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2015, 06:21:09 PM »
Quote
Mr. Oniya (who has done Civil War re-enactment) suggested that the 'removed Civil War games' could easily be restored with the simple patch of replacing the battle flag image file with an actual CSA flag image file...
      I can't speak for the exact context of (all) those games, but the Rebels' flag was undeniably also used, so it wouldn't make too much sense (especially if it removes the accuracy of the depiction). 

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2015, 06:54:14 PM »
Lmao. Did i just get attacked? Your reasons for wanting the flag are yours alone. I dont have to like it. It makes me uncomfortable and sorry, not sorrg but it seems that there are plenty of white people who just hate my exsistence for having melanin. Im allowed to be offended and i have a right to. You do not get to tell me how to feel otherwise.

No one has tried to tell you how to feel. Feel offended if you want. But no one should have to give you everything you want because you are offended. Period.

Offline consortium11Topic starter

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2015, 07:08:19 PM »
Mr. Oniya (who has done Civil War re-enactment) suggested that the 'removed Civil War games' could easily be restored with the simple patch of replacing the battle flag image file with an actual CSA flag image file..

It's not quite so simple for anything set post 1863 though. The second and third official confederate flags:





So, they're not the rebel flag... but they basically contain it within.

Dear sweet merciful Gods please please please stop calling it the "Confederate Flag". It is the Rebel flag. Or, if you want to get very technical with it, it's appropriate name is "The Stainless Banner".

It's not actually; the Stainless Banner is the first one I posted above and was an official flag of the Confederacy. The "stainless" aspect comes from the big area of white on it.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2015, 07:36:47 PM »
Sigh.

You do realize that the American Flag is Racist and responsible for a lot of hate and deaths of other races?

If we want to go about pointing fingers of racism, why not start with Old Glory?

Old Glory who is responsible for the deaths of many Native Americans.
Old Glory who is responsible for slavery going on for over a hundred years.
Old Glory who is responsible for the deaths and injuries of many African-Americans after the civil war(remember Martin Luther King days?)
Old Glory who had many active groups of the KKK using it and recognizing it as the national symbol other than the 'Confederate Flag.'

A Confederate flag that only reign four years receives more hate than an American Flag which has the longest history of blood and tyranny on its hands. Give me break.

Offline Maiz

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #42 on: June 27, 2015, 08:08:37 PM »
You can proclaim how much whatever flag means heritage/pride but the fact of the matter is that by displaying it you are marking yourself as someone unsafe to African Americans and other racial/religious minorities.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Because of this, it should not fly on state buildings. Someone said to put it in the museum and I agree with this sentiment.

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2009/04/heritage-not-hate/16754/
Quote from: Ta-Nehisi Coates
One defense of the Confederate flag, made below, is that people who fly the flag and wear it on their tee-shirts aren't necessarily, themselves, racist. This is a rather low hurdle to clear. The harder test doesn't question your where your heart, but your sword.

From this perspective, the question isn't "Do you hate black people?" It isn't "Would you invite a black person to your barbecue?"  It's "Are you more offended by black people who recoil in horror at the Confederate flag, than you are by the flag's history?"

Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #43 on: June 27, 2015, 08:12:46 PM »
You do realize that the American Flag is Racist and responsible for a lot of hate and deaths of other races?

That is a rather poor analogy.

The United States flag has been used for puproses other than the ones you've listed.  Good things.  Like, for example, defeating Nazi Germany.  Helping other countries like Haiti recover after a natural disaster.  Landing a human being on the Moon.

The Confederate battle flag has been used for what?  As the banner of one army that lost the Civil War?  As decoration on a stock car used to jump over rivers in an 80s television show?  As a rallying point by a politician seeking to become president of the United States so he can mandate segregation?  As a symbol by two States to show their defiance of Federal law requiring integration? 

What else?

Of the ways the Confederate battle flag has been used, which do you think has had the biggest impact? 


Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #44 on: June 27, 2015, 08:19:07 PM »
That is a rather poor analogy.

The United States flag has been used for puproses other than the ones you've listed.  Good things.  Like, for example, defeating Nazi Germany.  Helping other countries like Haiti recover after a natural disaster.  Landing a human being on the Moon.

The Confederate battle flag has been used for what?  As the banner of one army that lost the Civil War?  As decoration on a stock car used to jump over rivers in an 80s television show?  As a rallying point by a politician seeking to become president of the United States so he can mandate segregation?  As a symbol by two States to show their defiance of Federal law requiring integration? 

What else?

Of the ways the Confederate battle flag has been used, which do you think has had the biggest impact?

You do realize it has been used in WWII by southern soldiers, maybe you should scan up some pages on notes to those involvements.

Also the US is not as clean handed as you try to promote it. Have you forgotten the nuking of Japan, twice? Have you forgotten American stealing land from Mexico and now is against immigrants crossing the border? Have you forgotten how US stole Hawaii? America invades and takes land, it is okay; but for other countries that do it(when we involve ourselves) it isn't.

Edit: Also on the Nazi-Germany thing. Russians already would of had them beat, all we did was stole a victory from them on that end. The German army was not use to invading the colder climates. To say America was the main victors in that battle is a jest.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 08:21:30 PM by Drake Valentine »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #45 on: June 27, 2015, 08:21:18 PM »
Dear sweet merciful Gods please please please stop calling it the "Confederate Flag". It is the Rebel flag. Or, if you want to get very technical with it, it's appropriate name is "The Stainless Banner".
Partial credit here: The flag under discussion was only the primary design element of the flags the CSA used for most of its existence. The Stainless Banner would actually be the second flag of the CSA, adopted in 1863 (see the first image in consortium11's post above).

I am sick to death of no one actually researching to figure out just what exactly they are offended of. That battle flag is part of American history. I've seen blacks wearing t-shirts with it on them. I've seen blacks waving it just like whites. If we start banning everything that offends people soon we won't be able to open our freaking mouths to speak.
Next time you want to tell us we're all getting it wrong, you might want to make sure you've got it right. And... and did you seriously just pull the "[The flag has] a black friend" argument with a straight face? Further: No matter how many times people pretend otherwise, you won't find many people in this thread wanting to ban it outright. I'm all for people being able to display it as private citizens. I don't think governments should endorse the message for which it has come to stand.

Old Glory who is responsible for the deaths of many Native Americans.
Old Glory who is responsible for slavery going on for over a hundred years.
Old Glory who is responsible for the deaths and injuries of many African-Americans after the civil war(remember Martin Luther King days?)
Old Glory who had many active groups of the KKK using it and recognizing it as the national symbol other than the 'Confederate Flag.'

A Confederate flag that only reign four years receives more hate than an American Flag which has the longest history of blood and tyranny on its hands. Give me break.
I wasn't aware that slavery and the US policy of native genocide were ongoing in the 1960s. I certainly wasn't aware that the modern American flag was popularized as a rallying banner for racists, or adopted by governments as an endorsement of racism and a statement of defiance against equality.

Wait, it wasn't? So the two aren't even remotely comparable? I am shocked.

You do realize it has been used in WWII by southern soldiers, maybe you should scan up some pages on notes to those involvements.

Also the US is not as clean handed as you try to promote it. Have you forgotten the nuking of Japan, twice? Have you forgotten American stealing land from Mexico and now is against immigrants crossing the border? Have you forgotten how US stole Hawaii? America invades and takes land, it is okay; but for other countries that do it(when we involve ourselves) it isn't.

Edit: Also on the Nazi-Germany thing. Russians already would of had them beat, all we did was stole a victory from them on that end. The German army was not use to invading the colder climates. To say America was the main victors in that battle is a jest.
All right. Let me try to make the difference explicitly clear: America has done questionable things. It is not, at its core, all about questionable things, in the way that the CSA was, at its core, all about slavery, or the segregationist movement was all about racism.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 08:24:13 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #46 on: June 27, 2015, 08:25:23 PM »
I wasn't aware that slavery and the US policy of native genocide were ongoing in the 1960s. I certainly wasn't aware that the modern American flag was popularized as a rallying banner for racists, or adopted by governments as an endorsement of racism and a statement of defiance against equality.

Wait, it wasn't? So the two aren't even remotely comparable? I am shocked.

I am done with you. All you wish to do is cling to a four year reign and treat it as the most hateful event in history. Similar to treating Confederate Flag as a Nazi Flag. When clear examples of racial hate and genocide involving the American Flag are made you shrug it off. I will not continue to debate with you on this topic.

Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #47 on: June 27, 2015, 08:26:07 PM »
No, I haven't forgotten that there are darker aspects of the United State's history.  Just as there are brighter ones that I didn't mention.  Like how the United States' Flag was used to defeat the Confederate battle flag.


And it looks like your answer to my question is: none.

Therefore, we all evidently agree that the Confederate battle flag was used only:  (1) by a losing army for a few years; (2) to bump the Dukes of Hazard's rating a point or three in the 80s; and (3) as the banner of segregationists for decades in the past century.

That makes it pretty clear why there are people who don't like the flag, doesn't it?


Offline Cycle

Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #48 on: June 27, 2015, 08:27:32 PM »
All you wish to do is cling to a four year reign and treat it as the most hateful event in history.

The segregationist movement lasted longer than four years...


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Confederate Flag
« Reply #49 on: June 27, 2015, 08:28:41 PM »
I am done with you. All you wish to do is cling to a four year reign and treat it as the most hateful event in history. Similar to treating Confederate Flag as a Nazi Flag. When clear examples of racial hate and genocide involving the American Flag are made you shrug it off. I will not continue to debate with you on this topic.
Like you're ignoring the history of the rebel flag from 1948 onward? The bit you quoted spends more time on the segregationists than the CSA. In fact, it doesn't mention the CSA at all.

I don't excuse America's wrongs. I draw a distinction between a country that has strayed from its ideals and acted badly - yes, sometimes resulting in outright atrocity - and one which enshrines atrocity in its constitution as a mandatory and desirable practice.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2015, 08:30:05 PM by Ephiral »