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Author Topic: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?  (Read 3245 times)

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Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2015, 08:34:25 AM »
      It says "This item requires a subscription" to me, too. Maybe you have some kind of subscription that applies from earlier?

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2015, 08:36:04 AM »
Funny.  I don't have a subscription, and accessed it just fine.  http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/98/4/834.full.pdf+html

Funny, cause it isn't working for me. Tell me the keyboard key to pageprint/copy page(cause I don't see it on labtop or overlooking it one) and I will screenshot what I get.

 Instead I will quote this.

Quote
This item requires a subscription.

If you have an individual print subscription to Pediatrics, online access is included.
Full Text (PDF)
How Can Generative Theories of the Effects of Punishment be Tested?

    Cohen

Pediatrics 1996; 98:4 834-836
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Offline consortium11

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2015, 09:06:47 AM »
No access for me either.

On the general point though, I'm pretty sure that it's uncontroversial to say that spanking and the corporal punishment of children has been regarded as a negative thing by pretty much all the research done on it. It's one of those cases where one has to balance out personal prejudice against the science... and the science should win that. I was spanked as a child. I don't think it did me any harm. But... 1) I don't have a control to compare myself to and while I may think I turned out fine I can't say whether I'd have turned out "better" without spanking and 2) my personal anecdotes or the anecdotes of my friends are of little consequence compared to serious research done by serious people; you can dispute the methodology, you can dispute the conclusions they draw or the arguments they use but you can't simply go "well, I don't think so".

Offline Oniya

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2015, 09:10:31 AM »
      It says "This item requires a subscription" to me, too. Maybe you have some kind of subscription that applies from earlier?

Weird - I have never paid any subscription, and the bottoms of all the pages I looked at said 'Downloaded by Guest'

Screenshots of first page.  Includes a bit of the previous article, which does give me the subscription notice



Offline Ephiral

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2015, 09:52:28 AM »
It is simple to discredit things, although those links you provided are no hard evidence to back any claims of your own.

I am not going to bother bouncing from site to site through the first one.
So... you didn't read it, therefore it doesn't exist? Is that seriously what you're saying?

As for the second one. I will quote this.

Depends on the parent. The worse I got was a belt and I never had welts.

Quote
Other forms of physical punishment, such as striking a child with an object [...] are unacceptable and may be dangerous to the health and well-being of the child. These types of physical punishment should never be used.
You are one of the cases they are talking about.

Seriously? I have been through plenty of spankings, I have friends who were treated similar growing up. Yes, some of those will spank their children, but as a means to an end when everything else falls on 'deaf' ears. None of them or me approve of domestic violence. I do not see how punishment reflects on martial conflict, unless there is a severe difference of opinion on how to punish said children.
Unfortunately, anecdotes make poor data. If only someone had conducted a broad study and found the general trends across the population as a whole! Someone like, say, Dr. Murray A. Strauss.

Yea? Where have these studies been concluded? I have turned out fine as have friends, co-workers, and other people I know. Only individuals that abuse substances is liquor, but no one is perfect. As far as crime and violence goes, only one person I personally know has been to jail once and they never been to it again. Prison teaches a life experience in itself. As does certain forms of punishment in general.
Maybe take a look at the numerous citations on that article? You have been provided with this information. Deliberately wallowing in ignorance to preserve your idea that spanking is generally harmless does nobody, least of all you, any good.

And... well, I'm going to tell you the same thing that made me reconsider this and look into the data: You didn't turn out fine. You think it's okay to hit a child.


Spanking is merely another means of an end of correcting behavior. How are you going to handle a child when all else fails? Take away their things and they still cut up, put them in time out, forced some other means of end of redeeming themselves on them? What if they still rebel? Is it okay for parents to be complete pacifists towards corporal punishment? Maybe some can pull it off, because they are blessed with kids that may follow through, but what will you do if not? Take em to a doctor and get them 'drugged' up?
Please tell me how this logic differs from the logic of people you would consider actual abusers. Also, why is consulting an expert so much worse than, y'know, hitting your child?

Needless to say, discipline all boils down to how you are raised, the ethics you grew up with. Ethics vary with region, I was brought up in the South and taught how to be respectful, such teachings often involved a firm hand which I am thankful as I turned out just fine in my life. Though I do not see any point of further derailing this topic at hand as it is more about spanking or punishing other people's kids. Parents have a right to handle their young-ins in whatever way they want, however I see it bad parenting to just turn a blind eye and never make an ends approach to correcting repetitive rebellious and chaotic behaviors. It is just as insulting to witness such to my upbringing when others ignore and let their children do whatever they want. It teaches those kids in return nothing other than the fact they are free from punishment in general.
Yet again, you are equating corporal punishment with discipline as though it is the only form. If you're going to choose to ignore the data because it might disagree with your worldview, please at least stop insulting those of us who would rather be well-informed?

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2015, 10:01:27 AM »
Quote
get them 'drugged' up?
I consider using psychoactive chemicals on a(n unwilling) person which aren't absolutely necessary for them to function equal to their ability to function and/or survive just as bad as physical assault. It's an argument of "but you *could* do even worse!" Sure, it could almost always be worse...

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2015, 10:08:00 AM »
Yeah, if you read all the literature on how bad corporal punishment is then every child who was ever spanked would probably become a hyper-aggressive serial killer or something, which is hardly true. I often suspect cherry-picking in many of the articles like this. There's too much personal agenda in this kind of social discourse. It can even be seen in this very argument. Lots of soap boxes on the floor. :|

Sometimes the intellectual adult arguments don't work on the willful minds of children. How many ways can one actually get through to a child that their actions can sometimes have physically painful consequences?

In actual relation to the topic--and not this tangent--of whether or not others should discipline other parents' children. Honestly, it's not worth it in this hypersensitive lawsuit-happy world. Chalk it up to terrible parenting on their part.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 10:10:01 AM by Inkidu »

Offline BlueMaiden88Topic starter

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2015, 10:08:04 AM »
The paperwork and steps required to initiate physical action is the point though.  So many steps are required and documented in order to enact physical restraint and action against a patient.  This is a display of how rare we as adults want physical restraint and violence to be used against another adult.  Yet we would advocate quick physical violence against a child.  My mentioning of family members at bedside was not to say they are there but to point out that a familiar figure, discussing and reminding someone acting out is more effective than a physical altercation. 

Nobody is in disagreement that a child hurting themselves or another should be stopped, physically if necessary.  Where your comparison falls apart though is that people are advocating physical reprimand for bad behavior which is something that cannot be done to a patient.  Therefore you are comparing apples and oranges here.

It does not fall flat.  The physical reprimand for a patient comes in the form of an intravenous injection of sedative OR at times a physical hold that pulls their limbs at just the right angle so that struggling is more painful than being compliant.  Some pain is always involved.  They are lucid.  They know that we've done something to make them compliant and when the sedative wears off, they remember the event and often times, they do not repeat it.  It's more traumatizing to feel that you are not in control of your own body than being physically slapped. 

The paperwork is only to document the event in the case of a legal suite and to deter the nursing staff from just drugging everyone to avoid having to actually interact with patients.  It does not prevent patient abuse by any means.  It pains me to say this, but the staff members who are going to abuse patients will find ways to do it undocumented and often use bullying to keep other staff members from properly reporting it.  That or they will do it in a passive way and not respond to a patient's needs in time to avert a disaster and fill out the paperwork as if they just "didn't know the patient was going to do that".   I've read enough of protocol and dealt with enough horrible incidents that didn't have to happen to realize that much. 

Having the family as a tool to prevent patients from acting out isn't a deterrent either.  At times, especially with a dementia patient, mentioning a family member and how they will become disappointed in their behavior, will stop the behavior for 5 minutes and then, they will get worse, more violent, and even accusatory.  Sometimes patients are relatively able-bodied, RATIONAL, and aware of what you're trying to do and they react by acting out even more because they feel like they need to prove that no one can make them do anything they don't want to do, even if it's the right thing.   Like methods to maintain peace and control, using family members only works SOMETIMES. 

Furthermore, in the rare instances that sedatives and restraints are needed, we don't fill out paperwork and give them the opportunity to maim someone.  We restrain them first, do the paperwork, call the doctor and then the family.  In that order.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2015, 10:28:40 AM »
Yeah, if you read all the literature on how bad corporal punishment is then every child who was ever spanked would probably become a hyper-aggressive serial killer or something, which is hardly true. I often suspect cherry-picking in many of the articles like this. There's too much personal agenda in this kind of social discourse. It can even be seen in this very argument. Lots of soap boxes on the floor. :|
That's odd. The literature I've read speaks in broad terms, of trends and general tendencies, and mentions only heightened aggression as compared to non-spanked children (since, y'know, you just taught your kid that hitting is the way to settle your differences).

Sometimes the intellectual adult arguments don't work on the willful minds of children. How many ways can one actually get through to a child that their actions can sometimes have physically painful consequences?
You don't need some "intellectual adult" argument. In my experience, a Serious Voice explanation that you Mustn't Do That because <Bad Thing> can happen, coupled with taking away privileges, does the trick. At least, when asked to explain in her own words what she did wrong, my three-year-old gets it - and doesn't repeat the behaviour.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2015, 10:34:59 AM »
That's odd. The literature I've read speaks in broad terms, of trends and general tendencies, and mentions only heightened aggression as compared to non-spanked children (since, y'know, you just taught your kid that hitting is the way to settle your differences).
You don't need some "intellectual adult" argument. In my experience, a Serious Voice explanation that you Mustn't Do That because <Bad Thing> can happen, coupled with taking away privileges, does the trick. At least, when asked to explain in her own words what she did wrong, my three-year-old gets it - and doesn't repeat the behaviour.
Oh wait. Broad terms and anecdotes are okay when you're making your argument, but when someone else is making their's its unacceptable. Okay, I get how this works now. Gotcha.

Done.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2015, 10:54:00 AM »
I have a question, what about hits that aren't a spank?

Cause when I was bad enough my parents would hit me but it would be just a slap on the shoulder/ legs. :P

They picked that up in Puerto Rico while stationed there.

By slap I mean what's basically just a love tap, its not like I was on the floor or had any permanent marks on me or anything. It was about as hard as when you try to swat a fly on you or shoo away a mosquito.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 10:56:59 AM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2015, 11:08:58 AM »
So... you didn't read it, therefore it doesn't exist? Is that seriously what you're saying?
Read what? Various links of 'how not okay to hit children?'

Quote
You are one of the cases they are talking about.
Unfortunately, anecdotes make poor data. If only someone had conducted a broad study and found the general trends across the population as a whole! Someone like, say, Dr. Murray A. Strauss.
Maybe take a look at the numerous citations on that article? You have been provided with this information. Deliberately wallowing in ignorance to preserve your idea that spanking is generally harmless does nobody, least of all you, any good.

Whose to say how accurately all of that is recorded?  Science is not always right. Do not speak of ignorance when you are parading around in it yourself.

Quote
And... well, I'm going to tell you the same thing that made me reconsider this and look into the data: You didn't turn out fine. You think it's okay to hit a child.

No, I am perfectly normal compared to a lot of society today. At least I have a spine to use corporal punishment when all else may obvious fail. If you want to have a black and white outlook on punishment, be my guess. I see things in shades of gray.

Quote
Please tell me how this logic differs from the logic of people you would consider actual abusers. Also, why is consulting an expert so much worse than, y'know, hitting your child?

Actual abuses are those that straight out 'beat' their child. Spanking in discipline is not beating. Why do people so shallowly see it as such? Spanking is not abuse. Spanking is an illustration to correct unruly behavior when all else fails for a child to see that something is not right. Spanking is to remind hierarchy of the household. Children should never be granted power to believe that they are fully in control. An expert for what? To apply medication for unruly behavior? That is like saying 'doping' kids is totally fine.

Quote
Yet again, you are equating corporal punishment with discipline as though it is the only form. If you're going to choose to ignore the data because it might disagree with your worldview, please at least stop insulting those of us who would rather be well-informed?

Maybe you should stop being such a bigot and read over things. I am equating corporal punishment as a means of an end when all other punishments fail. It is easy to just run away from the problems.

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2015, 11:12:20 AM »


Now seems like a good time for cute kittens in need of hugs. Everyone hug the kitten!

Offline BlueMaiden88Topic starter

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2015, 11:25:03 AM »
I have a question, what about hits that aren't a spank?

Cause when I was bad enough my parents would hit me but it would be just a slap on the shoulder/ legs. :P

They picked that up in Puerto Rico while stationed there.

By slap I mean what's basically just a love tap, its not like I was on the floor or had any permanent marks on me or anything. It was about as hard as when you try to swat a fly on you or shoo away a mosquito.

Most of the time this was what my mother would do.  It didn't really hurt and if it did, the most you felt was a sting and it was more shocking than anything else.  I don't think that's abuse primarily because it didn't exactly hurt. 

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2015, 11:33:09 AM »


Now seems like a good time for cute kittens in need of hugs. Everyone hug the kitten!

*hugs*  ;D


Most of the time this was what my mother would do.  It didn't really hurt and if it did, the most you felt was a sting and it was more shocking than anything else.  I don't think that's abuse primarily because it didn't exactly hurt. 

Yeah I thought the same :) I didn't like it at the time but now I see that it was for the best.

Offline Blythe

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2015, 11:45:16 AM »
I have a question, what about hits that aren't a spank?

Cause when I was bad enough my parents would hit me but it would be just a slap on the shoulder/ legs. :P

They picked that up in Puerto Rico while stationed there.

By slap I mean what's basically just a love tap, its not like I was on the floor or had any permanent marks on me or anything. It was about as hard as when you try to swat a fly on you or shoo away a mosquito.

This is what my father would do. He never ever spanked without a very good reason; I had to be at the height of misbehavior, possibly at risk of harming myself or others. He would then 'spank' me, but it never left marks and was more of a surprising 'sting' than anything. Once the surprise snapped me out of my misbehavior, though, he'd sit me down to have a rational conversation to explain why he did what he did, why I did something wrong, why I shouldn't do it, and it would be followed by an apology for having to spank me.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2015, 01:03:36 PM »
This is what my father would do. He never ever spanked without a very good reason; I had to be at the height of misbehavior, possibly at risk of harming myself or others. He would then 'spank' me, but it never left marks and was more of a surprising 'sting' than anything. Once the surprise snapped me out of my misbehavior, though, he'd sit me down to have a rational conversation to explain why he did what he did, why I did something wrong, why I shouldn't do it, and it would be followed by an apology for having to spank me.

it seems to be  good way to get the best of both worlds in my opinion.  :-)

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #67 on: June 25, 2015, 01:16:19 PM »
I believe at this point we are going to disagree on the view of restraints and I think its best if you no longer venture down that road.  Restraints, chemical or otherwise, are never to be used as a reprimand for behavior.  They are not a punishment in any sense of the word.  This is quite clear in any documentation for JCAHO, DHH and pretty much any ethics community I have ever seen.  Simply keeping the restraints in sight of a patient is unethical and can be seen as threatening a patient.  So the comparison of disciplining a child to a patient is a false one.  That really is it in simplicity.  If, as a medical worker, you are disciplining patients with chemical and/or physical restraint with the goal of inflicting pain or trauma on the patient to curb bad behavior then I recommend you cease caring for patients.

At this point I will step away from the conversation since we are sufficiently off track in this side discussion and are now in the realm of patient care.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #68 on: June 25, 2015, 05:46:01 PM »
Oh wait. Broad terms and anecdotes are okay when you're making your argument, but when someone else is making their's its unacceptable. Okay, I get how this works now. Gotcha.

Done.
Broad, empirically-supported  terms are perfectly valid whether or not I happen to agree with them. I...may have been overly broad in how I spoke of my anecdote; it was intended as an example of something that can work, not a universal "this will work", and certainly not "this is the only thing that works", which is a huge chunk of my objection with Drake's argument. My apologies for my poor presentation.

Read what? Various links of 'how not okay to hit children?'
You claim there is no evidence - because you actively refused to look at even one of the dozens of evidence-based articles I provided. This is my point. Refusing to look at the evidence doesn't make it not exist.

Whose to say how accurately all of that is recorded?  Science is not always right. Do not speak of ignorance when you are parading around in it yourself.
...okay, just to make sure I've got this right: It sounds like you're saying "Scientists have been in error before, therefore this opinion piece by someone with literally no qualifications is as valid as a broad consensus resulting from numerous peer-reviewed empirical studies." Is this a fair read?

No, I am perfectly normal compared to a lot of society today. At least I have a spine to use corporal punishment when all else may obvious fail. If you want to have a black and white outlook on punishment, be my guess. I see things in shades of gray.
And who says that "a lot of society today" is at optimal levels of aggression? Should we give up on any attempt to better ourselves, because we already meet the perfectly circular benchmark of "as good as we are now"?

Actual abuses are those that straight out 'beat' their child. Spanking in discipline is not beating. Why do people so shallowly see it as such? Spanking is not abuse. Spanking is an illustration to correct unruly behavior when all else fails for a child to see that something is not right. Spanking is to remind hierarchy of the household. Children should never be granted power to believe that they are fully in control. An expert for what? To apply medication for unruly behavior? That is like saying 'doping' kids is totally fine.
Where exactly is the line between 'spanking' and 'beating'? Number of strikes? How hard they are? It's obviously not the use of weapons, as you already okayed that. Emotional state of the parent? Even if you do see a difference, it is at best one of degree, not of kind.

Yet again, you're misrepresenting the opposition because you seem to see corporal punishment as the only form of discipline: Please tell me where I have said children should believe they are fully in control, or that there should not be a clear power relationship between parent and child.

And yes, believe it or not, sometimes medication is the correct route for behavioural issues, because sometimes they are in fact symptomatic of underlying issues. Consulting a professional is certainly a more productive route than continuing to hit your child in these situations.

Maybe you should stop being such a bigot and read over things. I am equating corporal punishment as a means of an end when all other punishments fail. It is easy to just run away from the problems.
It is not bigotry to point out that the research has been done and it does not support your position. It is not bigotry to point out that statements like this:
I seen others who may talk to their kids when they cut up, but not do anything. Scolding them or saying stuff 'going to put you in timeout.' Timeout? What the hell is a timeout?
...are actually explicitly saying that non-corporal punishment is "doing nothing". It is not bigotry to point it out when you present a false dichotomy between corporal punishment and doing nothing at all to rein in children, as though there are no other options. Please check what you actually wrote before you call me names.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #69 on: June 25, 2015, 08:26:47 PM »
Yeah, the article cited appears to be locked behind a subscription wall. I can access it, but only by using my university's access to the journal. There's one I want to share, but unfortunately don't think anyone else is going to have access to it. But if you can read it, this seems to be a pretty on topic, recent, peer-reviewed and broad meta-analysis.

E PAOLUCCI & C VIOLATO (2004), "A Meta-Analysis of the Published Research on the Affective, Cognitive, and Behavioral Effects of Corporal Punishment". The Journal of Psychology, 2004, 138 (3), 197221

This meta-analysis looks at smacks defined as "physically noninjurious and as administered with an opened hand to the extremities or buttocks, with the intention of modifying behavior" and specifically avoids "slapping the face, kicking, arm-twisting, shaking, pinching, ear pulling, jabbing, shoving, choking, beating, or delivery of repeated demoralizing blows."

Using this definition it concludes "The analyses suggested small negative behavioral and emotional effects of corporal punishment and almost no effect of such punishment on cognition." It also states, again using the definition previously supplied, "The results of the present meta-analysis suggest that exposure to corporal punishment does not substantially increase the risk to youth of developing affective, cognitive, or behavioral pathologies."

And that it appears to be effective when:
"1. used less than weekly, as recalled by adults, or fewer than 10 times annually, as recalled by adolescents;
2. used at nonabusive levels of severity by parents who were not physically violent against family members;
3. administered without the use of potentially damaging instruments;
4. used during ages 2 to 6 and possibly between ages 7 and 12;
5. administered privately;
6. used with reasoning, preferably with an intermediate level of child distress; and
7. used primarily as a back-up for less aversive discipline responses."

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2015, 12:24:47 AM »
Quote
Spanking in discipline is not beating. Why do people so shallowly see it as such? Spanking is not abuse. Spanking is an illustration to correct unruly behavior when all else fails for a child to see that something is not right. Spanking is to remind hierarchy of the household. Children should never be granted power to believe that they are fully in control.
        Making physical contact with the intent to cause pain and/or humiliation is abuse. Period.
        It is not OK to beat your SO into submission because you think this is "hierarchically correct", it is not OK to beat your employees into submission, and guess what, it is not OK to beat your children into submission.
        I will tell you, I'd have bit, clawed and fought for my dear life and never trusted the person again if someone had decided to assault my younger self like that, and this is a perfectly normal, since we are animals with basic survival instincts. We either fight, flee, or stay still and hope it goes away if something attacks us. And my personal self tends to lean on "fight" when assaulted.
        And no, not all abuse immediately results in mental issues - the same way other animals don't immediately go crazy and break down as soon as someone tries to eat them. If it was *that* easy to break our minds, humans would have long gone extinct before they even reached modern society. Does "abuse doesn't necessarily result in evident mental damage" make it OK? No.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #71 on: June 26, 2015, 12:47:46 AM »
        Making physical contact with the intent to cause pain and/or humiliation is abuse. Period.
        It is not OK to beat your SO into submission because you think this is "hierarchically correct", it is not OK to beat your employees into submission, and guess what, it is not OK to beat your children into submission.
        I will tell you, I'd have bit, clawed and fought for my dear life and never trusted the person again if someone had decided to assault my younger self like that, and this is a perfectly normal, since we are animals with basic survival instincts. We either fight, flee, or stay still and hope it goes away if something attacks us. And my personal self tends to lean on "fight" when assaulted.
        And no, not all abuse immediately results in mental issues - the same way other animals don't immediately go crazy and break down as soon as someone tries to eat them. If it was *that* easy to break our minds, humans would have long gone extinct before they even reached modern society. Does "abuse doesn't necessarily result in evident mental damage" make it OK? No.
I know you probably mean something more profound, but honestly, you're making yourself look bad. You're basically comparing yourself to an unthinking animal. :\

Even animals get the concept of physical punishment used to correct undesired behavior though, so your argument is really starting to fall apart the more you try to make it. Corporal punishment is not a purely human thing. I've seen a broodmare bite the crap out of a yearling because it wouldn't move when she was sick of its attitude. There's oodles of evidence in various canine circles of the same thing.

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #72 on: June 26, 2015, 01:05:48 AM »
       Animals aren't "unthinking". More advanced animals are quite capable of intelligent thought, and humans, too, are "just" animals. I am an animal, you're an animal, we're all members of the animal kingdom. And if we're "better" than other animals, then perhaps we shouldn't keep our children under control by hoping they'd be too afraid to do it again if we just beat them up. (Mind, many animal species who take care of their young at first also violently chase them off after certain age, and then will have nothing to do with them for the rest of their lives.)
     As a member of the human species more specifically I say as you onto me, I onto you - if you treat me decently, so will I, if you don't, I won't respect you for it or make an effort to help you. If you continue doing it and/or justify mistreating me later on, you'll see repercussions.

Offline Eranil Morathim

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #73 on: June 26, 2015, 10:42:40 AM »
This is my first time posting here and I'm probably going to regret it.

Bottom line, spanking, done correctly is NOT abuse. Something like say, hitting a kid in the face with a snow shovel is. That may sound like an extreme example but it was one I lived with my stepdad. And that was simply because the sidewalk looked like it hadn't been shoveled because it had snowed more since I had. That is abuse, not spanking, My mother and my grandparents spanked me, and I'm glad they did.

Spanking, when done rationally, is not even close to abuse. It is a last resort for discipline and serves more to assert authority and show the child they have done wrong. My son, at age 6 has been spanked twice in his life by me. Both times were nothing more than a single swat to get his attention. By the logic in these anti spanking studies, he will now grow up with anger and aggression issues and I should pretty much be out of my mind raging.

To me this seems like those of you who are against spanking think it is the only form of discipline those of us for spanking use. That's just not true. As has been stated repeatedly, it is a LAST RESORT. Not to mention it's not as if the child is being outright beaten in public. At home, in private, just enough for said child to know they screwed up.

As for kicking, screaming, etc. First off at around six it likely would have done no good against an adult. In my family it also would have resulted in being made to stand in a corner facing the wall after said spanking. But I suppose that's some kind of humiliation and abuse too.

Ok, I feel myself starting to ramble and rant, so I'm stopping myself here.


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #74 on: June 26, 2015, 12:11:10 PM »
Spanking, when done rationally, is not even close to abuse. It is a last resort for discipline and serves more to assert authority and show the child they have done wrong. My son, at age 6 has been spanked twice in his life by me. Both times were nothing more than a single swat to get his attention. By the logic in these anti spanking studies, he will now grow up with anger and aggression issues and I should pretty much be out of my mind raging.
Actually, based on what those studies actually say, that is perfectly fine and shouldn't lead to any issues, but it is not a typical case. The typical pattern is much more frequent, leading to it being less effective, leading to escalation.

To me this seems like those of you who are against spanking think it is the only form of discipline those of us for spanking use. That's just not true. As has been stated repeatedly, it is a LAST RESORT. Not to mention it's not as if the child is being outright beaten in public. At home, in private, just enough for said child to know they screwed up.
When the loudest pro-spanking voice in here repeatedly says that not spanking is literally "doing nothing", that's the only conclusion to draw. Further, he's spoken from the beginning of public contexts, so your limitations do not hold.

We decided over 40 years ago that some of the practices condoned in this thread were cruel and inhumane to use on prisoners. Why is it so controversial to suggest, with the backing of pretty much all the credible research, that maybe children deserve as much consideration as felons?