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Author Topic: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?  (Read 3210 times)

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Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2015, 10:21:10 AM »
Thing is, now and days it is hard to discipline people. Some folks are just 'scared' to discipline their own children. In some places, if a parent whoops their child it is all of a sudden 'child abuse.'

Though it isn't right to really discipline other people's children and questionably so to do such even in a teacher position. Not sure how the rules are now, but I know at one point when I was growing up it was fine, people could call you in and give you a whooping, before sending you back to class. Later, down the line I heard something about written permissions to such and was wondering 'written permissions, what's that? Never had that luxury when I was a kid.' Of course given the option of receiving a whooping or having my parents called to school, I would pick the former.

Personally I strongly believe in discipline, but that should be done by the actual parents. Discipline helps shape individuals of 'right and wrong,'  and keep them in line, instead of giving them the assumption to believe they can do and basically get away with almost anything they may do. You can tell a lot from how children act. Just look at them and then their parents and how they react, if parents are just aloof to their child's actions, well, there is the problem of upbringing there. I seen people that totally ignore their kids, let them run around in stores, throw stuff on the floor, scream and ball at the top of their lungs, act straightly chaotic. I seen others who may talk to their kids when they cut up, but not do anything. Scolding them or saying stuff 'going to put you in timeout.' Timeout? What the hell is a timeout? Back in my day, if I were to act a fool in public place, I would of either been dragged out of the place and got a belting or got a whooping in said public area.

Edit: Actually, one should never discipline another's child unless they have consent of that parent figure; because A) it can be taken and treated as 'assault on a minor,' if said parental of child may choose to use such as charges. Assuming whatever extents one goes to do said punishment that wasn't agreed on.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 10:26:34 AM by Drake Valentine »

Offline consortium11

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2015, 10:27:32 AM »
I was talking about middle-schoolers - so, up to 14 at least.  'Mom voice' (or 'Coach voice') will get their attention.  Striding towards them with that 'I am a person of authority' look in your eyes will as well.  I haven't had to try to drag or restrain anyone, but I was prepared to grab hold of the bike that the one kid was charging around on if he hadn't laid off.

My thought is that if one was to waste a day by looking through the various "fight at school" style clips on youtube you'll see more than enough examples of children ignoring teachers regardless of tone, the teachers finding it near impossible to restrain them and in some cases outright attacking the teachers themselves. Would we accept that a different approach and level of force may be needed when dealing with a seven year old and a 14 year old?

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2015, 10:31:44 AM »
Quote
Back in my day, if I were to act a fool in public place, I would of either been dragged out of the place and got a belting or got a whooping in said public area.
       Violence begets violence. I'd not have parent(s) today if either of them would either hit me when I was a child. I'll remember some things my mother did as wrong for as long as I live as is.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2015, 10:39:53 AM »
My thought is that if one was to waste a day by looking through the various "fight at school" style clips on youtube you'll see more than enough examples of children ignoring teachers regardless of tone, the teachers finding it near impossible to restrain them and in some cases outright attacking the teachers themselves. Would we accept that a different approach and level of force may be needed when dealing with a seven year old and a 14 year old?

I expect teachers now and days can only do so much. I had known a teacher that would lift up two students each in a hand(freaking big ass coach) and everyone would calm down. Dude would just walk towards the circle of a fight and shove people aside and yank the two responsible up like they weighed nothing and this is Highschoolers.

       Violence begets violence. I'd not have parent(s) today if either of them would either hit me when I was a child. I'll remember some things my mother did as wrong for as long as I live as is.

Depends on the violence. Not saying straight out beatings, a belting or good spanking will correct anything over time. I used to be a horrible urchin myself, but eventually begun to calm down around middle/high school. Probably with the lack of discipline I may be a worse character in person or in jail one, who knows.  I standby the belief a firm hand will correct unruly behavior, but that is only for parent and those they are fine in doing such to decide.

Offline BlueMaiden88Topic starter

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2015, 11:01:48 AM »
As I said before, different people have different parameters when it comes to the 'going to far' line.  Some people do not believe wholeheartedly that if you catch their child doing something violent to someone else, you should go ahead and do whatever makes them stop the fastest without killing them.  Some believe that if you say 'snatch' their kid, that you have broken a cardinal rule...even if you snatch said kid from in front of a speeding car.  At which point, I begin to question if they actually value the life of the kid or their own egos.

I don't think you should hit other people's kids, UNLESS the kid is attacking.  I use the definition 'kid' loosely as someone is just under 18.  The second someone tries to hurt someone and they haven't been provoked, I'm sorry, minor or not, I'm going to assume that they are trying to kill someone and react accordingly.  Which is, to do whatever I need to do to make them stop.  If telling them to stop works, fine.  If pushing them away is what it takes to make them stop, fine.  If blocking makes them stop, fine.  If throwing them down and restraining them in a non-lethal hold is required, that's what I'm going to do. 

Offline consortium11

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2015, 11:06:53 AM »
I expect teachers now and days can only do so much. I had known a teacher that would lift up two students each in a hand(freaking big ass coach) and everyone would calm down. Dude would just walk towards the circle of a fight and shove people aside and yank the two responsible up like they weighed nothing and this is Highschoolers.

And that's great if the person in question can do that.

But what if they simply don't have the physical strength to toss people aside or hold two 14 year old boys fighting apart? What happens if there's no response to Mom/Dad/Coach voice? What happens if the response to the voice or being grabbed is to start punching back?

I think most people would accept that a seven year old "punching" an adult (and I use the quotation marks because most children's fights don't really involve real punches) is generally more an irritant for the adult then anything and thus striking back is generally going too far. But what if it isn't a seven year old but a strong 14 year old and they really are throwing punches? Are people still meant to not do anything back? Or to think "well, it's someone elses child, I won't hit or discipline them"?

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2015, 11:09:29 AM »
Quote
Not saying straight out beatings, a belting or good spanking will correct anything over time.
      Did it work for you? Who knows; maybe it did, maybe you're just more reasonable now because you're adult and your brain is now fully developed.
        The only thing you'd have gotten from *my* little self would have been the worst I could dish out and a call to the cops and a talk with the appropriate people at school. If someone attacks me, I *will* fight and I *will* remember it indefinitely. This is one part of me that has never changed. I know it wouldn't have worked for me and would have killed any trust or respect I had (and have, since y'know, my father is a good man and even my mother is mostly reasonable) towards my parents. Also, eventually I'd have grown large and strong enough to cause serious harm once they started assaulting me. And yes, "giving a spanking" qualifies as assault. You'd have a charge at your hands if you did it with an employee; there is no justifying it with children, either.
       (Have I ever physically harmed anyone besides the one time I intervened a fight in which the person I was defending could've gotten killed? No. Have I ever felt the desire to physically harm someone? No. It is nigh impossible to even anger me, let alone make me violent. Would I react if someone physically attacks me/others? Sure, as much as it takes to stop them. Would I still be in the same place I'm now if my parents thought assaulting their children is OK? I am not really certain...)

Quote
Some believe that if you say 'snatch' their kid, that you have broken a cardinal rule...even if you snatch said kid from in front of a speeding car.  At which point, I begin to question if they actually value the life of the kid or their own egos.
       Reminds me of the story a while back where a guy just watched a kid drown in shallow water after calling 911 because he was "afraid of being put on trial for touching the child by the parents"... What a world we live in indeed.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 11:11:23 AM by Shienvien »

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2015, 11:36:53 AM »
      Did it work for you? Who knows; maybe it did, maybe you're just more reasonable now because you're adult and your brain is now fully developed.
        The only thing you'd have gotten from *my* little self would have been the worst I could dish out and a call to the cops and a talk with the appropriate people at school. If someone attacks me, I *will* fight and I *will* remember it indefinitely. This is one part of me that has never changed. I know it wouldn't have worked for me and would have killed any trust or respect I had (and have, since y'know, my father is a good man and even my mother is mostly reasonable) towards my parents. Also, eventually I'd have grown large and strong enough to cause serious harm once they started assaulting me. And yes, "giving a spanking" qualifies as assault. You'd have a charge at your hands if you did it with an employee; there is no justifying it with children, either.
       (Have I ever physically harmed anyone besides the one time I intervened a fight in which the person I was defending could've gotten killed? No. Have I ever felt the desire to physically harm someone? No. It is nigh impossible to even anger me, let alone make me violent. Would I react if someone physically attacks me/others? Sure, as much as it takes to stop them. Would I still be in the same place I'm now if my parents thought assaulting their children is OK? I am not really certain...)
       Reminds me of the story a while back where a guy just watched a kid drown in shallow water after calling 911 because he was "afraid of being put on trial for touching the child by the parents"... What a world we live in indeed.

Technically, what qualifies as assault varies state by state. Here in MD, spanking is perfectly legal as long as it's open-palmed. So you can claim it's assault and "talk to the authorities", but in a lot of states, you'll get told the parent is well within their rights to do that.

That being said, my rules are pretty simple. If my son is doing something he shouldn't be, you tell him to stop. Thankfully for me, he's a lot more respectful of other adults than he is of his mother ::) and will usually listen if only because he cares about what people think of him. If he's doing something that is causing harm or has the potential to cause harm to you or ANYONE, by all means take measures to make him stop. Grab/Restrain/Move him if you have to. Hell, pick him up and carry him to me if I'm around (IE if it were happening at the store and I'm an aisle down or something) and I will be HAPPY to take over the physical discipline.

That said... Unless absolutely necessary, I will not tolerate someone hitting or pushing my child. And by necessary, I mean if it's to protect him (he's about to put his fingers or an object in to a light socket, he's about to walk out in to traffic, etc). If he's just being mouthy and you put your hands on him? You'll have me to deal with. And the cops.

I am firmly of the opinion that society needs to get back to the "It takes a village" way of thinking. Not just when it comes to discipline, but life in general. A child will learn so much more if there is a variety of adults influencing their lives as they grow up. They'll be more open minded, more well-rounded, more worldly, and more respectful. When I was a kid you didn't have just two parents. You had a whole neighborhood. And if your folks weren't around to put the fear of God in to you when you fucked up? Someone else would pinch-hit for them. Now we're so afraid of the boogey man and "stranger danger", kids can't walk to and from the park on their own, so the idea of another adult so much as speaking to our kids has the world up in arms.

And then we wonder why when they hit highschool and college they come out as ungrateful, unprepared, irresponsible and unreliable shitheads as young adults/adults.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 11:41:00 AM by Bloodied Porcelain »

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2015, 11:56:21 AM »
Quote
Technically, what qualifies as assault varies state by state. Here in MD, spanking is perfectly legal as long as it's open-palmed. So you can claim it's assault and "talk to the authorities", but in a lot of states, you'll get told the parent is well within their rights to do that.
     I am not in the states, luckily... In my mind, things like this basically translate to "parents can abuse and assault their children as much as they please, as long as it isn't sexual and doesn't leave marks". Being hit is being hit is being hit... The psychological response is about the same.

Quote
Now we're so afraid of the boogey man and "stranger danger", kids can't walk to and from the park on their own, so the idea of another adult so much as speaking to our kids has the world up in arms.
      You can believe me I've thought "Well, there goes my childhood" aplenty...
      Edit: And then there is the even more constant "If you don't start teaching children something early on, then how on Earth do you expect them to know how to do it when they finally hit 16/18/21?"
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 12:05:52 PM by Shienvien »

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2015, 05:13:18 PM »
Personally I strongly believe in discipline, but that should be done by the actual parents. Discipline helps shape individuals of 'right and wrong,'  and keep them in line, instead of giving them the assumption to believe they can do and basically get away with almost anything they may do. You can tell a lot from how children act. Just look at them and then their parents and how they react, if parents are just aloof to their child's actions, well, there is the problem of upbringing there. I seen people that totally ignore their kids, let them run around in stores, throw stuff on the floor, scream and ball at the top of their lungs, act straightly chaotic. I seen others who may talk to their kids when they cut up, but not do anything. Scolding them or saying stuff 'going to put you in timeout.' Timeout? What the hell is a timeout? Back in my day, if I were to act a fool in public place, I would of either been dragged out of the place and got a belting or got a whooping in said public area.
So you're saying that hitting your child is literally the only form of discipline, and anybody unwilling to resort to violence is going to put no meaningful limits on their child. That... thanks for that. It's not randomly insulting, condescending, and factually incorrect at all.

Offline BlueMaiden88Topic starter

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2015, 05:51:47 PM »
On the note of different kinds of discipline, I find that a lot of people immediately feel that corporeal punishment is abuse.  However, they forget that other kinds of discipline can just as easily stray into abuse and do worse and more long lasting damage than being hit as a result of being disobedient or ill-mannered. 

My parents used a combination of physical, psychological, and emotional discipline.  Physical discipline is reactive and falls into the categories that are easily definable: hitting, spanking, belting.  Emotional discipline is also reactive involves and uses the removal of something pleasant in response to bad behavior: taking away toys, taking away allowance, denying a child attention when they throw a tantrum to get your attention.  Psychological discipline often involves non-physical, proactive approach: teaching a child what's appropriate by modeling it for them, informing a child when their behavior is inappropriate, shaming the child when it has done something inappropriate, and rewarding good behavior.

What people forget is that emotional and psychological discipline VERY easily slip into abusive territories without leaving a visible mark and without seeming extreme.  A spanking, if the kid's parents are like mine involves telling the kid what they are getting the spanking for and how many times they will be struck for the offense and why.  It's very concrete, requires no thought.  It's simple.  When you stray outside of the parameters you set for spanking and start doing it in anger, beating welts onto the child or bruising them, it breaks a psychological contract and causes psychological damage.
Emotional discipline becomes abusive when its accompanied with name-calling, verbal abuse, destroying the items that should have just been taken away, confining the child, or ignoring the child without ever explaining to them why its being done and not giving them a discernible limit.  It also involves the idea of not disciplining your child until they are embarrassing to YOU.  Then it's a violation of a psychological contract and it tells them that their suffering is your pleasure.
Psychological discipline becomes abusive when the teaching protocol is accompanied with an implied or overt idea that the moment they fall outside of your parameters they become useless, when rewards and affection are only given in response to actions...and when shaming goes to the level that many parents see as trendy today...when the whole world joins in the dialogue about how bad a child the child is.  This kind of discipline creates a negative psychological contract that affects the kid's self-esteem, self-worth, and causes anxiety.  It's also caused kids to kill themselves.

I feel that all three discipline styles should be combined in a way that doesn't ignore the situation or the child's needs at that moment.  It's up to the parent or whoever is there to gauge what that is because not every situation and not every child will respond to the same kind of discipline.  I currently work in health care and I can tell you, that the prescribed, "No.  Stop.  Don't harm others or yourself." doesn't work.  Sometimes the "If you rip out your IV and your catheter, even if it is uncomfortable, you will hurt yourself, bleed, and probably get sepsis of the blood." doesn't work.  Sometimes putting your hands on someone and MAKING them stop is the only way to actually get them to stop. 

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2015, 06:00:57 PM »
While I do not want to derail the topic, I would like to point out that physical restraint of a patient is a last resort which requires a great deal of communication on the part of the physician and the nursing staff.  Studies have shown that having a family member at the beside to remind the patient and reorientate them is far more effective and beneficial.  Physical violence on a patient results in increased confusion, potential harm to the patient, feelings of persecution and additional behavioral problems during the stay.  So I am not sure if this comparison is really helping the case of physically disciplining a child since all studies point toward physical restraint being an absolute last resort to keep the patient from harming themselves and others.

By the way, restraining a patient or laying your hands on a patient for any other reason than prevention of harm to self or others is illegal. 

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2015, 08:14:16 PM »
So you're saying that hitting your child is literally the only form of discipline, and anybody unwilling to resort to violence is going to put no meaningful limits on their child. That... thanks for that. It's not randomly insulting, condescending, and factually incorrect at all.

I'm saying corporal punishment should be used when all other matters obviously are not working.

I honestly could care less if you agree or not with my opinions, they are, after all opinions.

The fact of the matter is, there are many controversies surrounding spanking. There have been studies where it has been found both good and bad for children.

Quote
On the other hand, there are many arguments that declare that spanking a child will not have any short-term, long-term, or devastating effects on a child. For example, according to Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff, the most obvious, positive, short-term effect of spanking is the advantage of immediate compliance and observance ("A New Look," 2002). In other words, spanking is a quick way for parents to get their children to obey them. Instead of threatening to put them on a "time out" or instead of not punishing them at all, spanking is a direct and fast way for a parent to get his or her disciplinary point across.
        Some might argue that spanking could cause harmful and damaging effects on a child in the long run. Some might argue that children who are spanked can often wind up being unstable and insecure adults. But according to Diana Baumrind, a psychologist from the University of California Berkeley, sporadic or sometimes even regular spankings do not lead to precariousness or instability in a child (Elias, 2001). Her research has shown that the children who did end up with some emotional damage were the children who were punished and spanked frequently and with objects other than just their parents' hands. Her research has also shown that children who were spanked as a form of discipline (that they were not spanked just to be inflicted pain by their parents) tended to develop the same way other children did who were not spanked. Baumrind goes on to add that spankings that are not in a frequent manner will not lead to any negative or long term effects on the child. It has been shown that spankings that occur every once and a while, do not hamper the way a child develops…that neither the child's social or emotional development will be affected (Kicklighter, 2001).
          Many parents who spank their children use it as a disciplinary last resort. On certain occasions, after they spank their children once, they never have to do it again. This is evident in the case of 39-year-old Sara Curtis. Curtis was out to dinner with a date and she had decided to take her three-year-old daughter with her. The child had been acting up throughout the entire meal, but Curtis tried to ignore the child's untamed behavior because she didn't want to have to disciple her daughter in a public restaurant. But then, Curtis realized that something had to be done. So, she took her daughter into the ladies room and hit her on the thigh. The little girl let out a sharp screech, but Curtis was not remorseful at all for having spanked her child. After they returned to the table, her daughter did not act up once and Curtis never had to spank her again (Hampel, 1999). In other words, children will not repeat their bad behavior because they want to avoid being spanked again.
        In other cases, children actually learn a lesson from physically being punished. This was the case for a man named Donald. When Donald was a young boy, he used to love going over to his grandfather's farm during his summer vacation. He used to love spending time with his grandfather and with his friend that he had met there, who was the son of a black man who worked for Donald's grandfather. These two children always had the best time together. They would play, roughhouse, and call each other names. When the wrestling would become too rough, Donald's grandfather would separate the two boys and have them reflect on why fighting was bad. And that is how far the punishment would go. But one day, the grandfather overheard Donald calling his friend a nigger. Without a warning, the grandfather walked over to Donald, hit him hard across the face, and then walked away. The hit seemed to be apparently hard because it made Donald fall to the ground "leaving [him] more shocked than hurt. The message was violent, and it came with no verbal explanation at all […] but Donald got the message his grandfather was trying to send, and it wasn't a message about the acceptability of violence. It was a message about the utter unacceptability of bigotry, and it had a powerful effect" (Lerner, 1998). Donald never said that word again and not once after that, did his grandfather have to hit him.
           In summary, spanking and corporal punishment are two things that have many opponents. But many argue that spanking will and can do more good than harm. According to some researchers, spanking does not cause any negative effects on children. Some researchers even like to say that children are better off if they are spanked because they are disciplined in such a shocking way that they either learn their lesson or behave in a more appropriate manner to avoid being spanked again.

Source - Be warn of purple background and black texting.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 08:15:25 PM by Drake Valentine »

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2015, 08:35:03 PM »
Looks like that might have been someone's homework assignment.  Source.


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2015, 09:36:10 PM »
I'm saying corporal punishment should be used when all other matters obviously are not working.
That's... not actually what you said, though; you were outright dismissive of other methods, directly equated them with doing nothing, and directly equated "discipline" with corporal punishment.

I honestly could care less if you agree or not with my opinions, they are, after all opinions.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts. Fact; There are, in fact, other methods of child discipline.

The fact of the matter is, there are many controversies surrounding spanking. There have been studies where it has been found both good and bad for children.

Have there really? The literature overwhelmingly disagrees with you. So does the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Of the links you posted: First one references a 'study' with a small sample size (179 subjects), relying entirely on surveys for data collection, using a very limited definition of 'spanking' that is neither mentioned in the article nor an accurate model of the typical case, and oh yeah it was rejected every time it was submitted for peer review. This is not good science.

Second article... references the same damn study.

The third... cites no actual data, and is from Focus on the Family, which severely damages its credibility in my eyes. The 'expert' who wrote it has literally zero cites I am able to find in the literature on the subject, likely because as far as I can tell he did not study child psychology.

Fourth... is an opinion piece by someone with no relevant credentials, citing nothing.

The evidence does not support your claims in any meaningful sense. We've done real science on this - lots of it - and the most glowing recommendation I've found of spanking is "It doesn't appear to be actively harmful, as long as it's done in a way that severely limits its long-term effectiveness as a punihsment."

Offline BlueMaiden88Topic starter

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2015, 10:20:01 PM »
While I do not want to derail the topic, I would like to point out that physical restraint of a patient is a last resort which requires a great deal of communication on the part of the physician and the nursing staff.  Studies have shown that having a family member at the beside to remind the patient and reorientate them is far more effective and beneficial.  Physical violence on a patient results in increased confusion, potential harm to the patient, feelings of persecution and additional behavioral problems during the stay.  So I am not sure if this comparison is really helping the case of physically disciplining a child since all studies point toward physical restraint being an absolute last resort to keep the patient from harming themselves and others.

By the way, restraining a patient or laying your hands on a patient for any other reason than prevention of harm to self or others is illegal.

I'm well aware of the legal parameters of restraining patients and the benefits of having family members present.  However, typically, the family doesn't stay 24 hours per day while a patient recovers.  The worst patients never even have family visit them and many of them will act out because they feel that being in the hospital entitles them to having family visit, even when they kinfolk don't want to.  It is the staff that handles the situation if the patient becomes unresponsive to redirection and/or harmful to themselves or others.  I only felt that it wasn't necessary to elaborate on exactly how many sheets of paper need to be filled out before you can restrain a patient because the topic is about what level of intervention you can apply to a situation in which other people's children are being destructive or violent. 

I only brought up patients as an example of how talking to someone about the consequences, the notion of 'time out', or the use of a 'serious voice' doesn't even work with presumably rational adults, let alone willful, undisciplined children.  I never stated anything about condoning violence against patients, just that there are times when you have to physically make them stop.  Most times 'reorienting' them involves actually touching them and moving their hands away from what could harm them or others.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2015, 04:27:59 AM »
You know, when I was a kid, we didn't stomp on bird nests and torch animals out of fear of punishment. We didn't do those things because we understood that they were animals and had feelings. We had basic intelligence and if one of us was enough of a schmuck to attempt something like that, another kid in the group would have spoken up.  From the OP, its sounds like these kids were either mentally deficient or angry and powerless.

On the topic of corporal punishment, I'm not sure swatting one of these kids would make them any smarter, less angry or less in need to seek power and control. My feeling on punishment is you need to select the most appropriate form for punishment for the kid, the parent and the situation at hand. Every kid, parent and situation is different. Trying to make a rule on how to punish that universally applies to everyone does not sound like a good idea to me.

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2015, 06:03:12 AM »
Quote
For example, according to Dr. Elizabeth Gershoff, the most obvious, positive, short-term effect of spanking is the advantage of immediate compliance and observance ("A New Look," 2002). In other words, spanking is a quick way for parents to get their children to obey them. Instead of threatening to put them on a "time out" or instead of not punishing them at all, spanking is a direct and fast way for a parent to get his or her disciplinary point across.
      No, I wouldn't have obeyed because someone assaulted me, my own parents included - I'd have fought back, teeth and nails. You are attacked - you fight or you flee (and for me, the more natural response is fight; flee is something I have to consciously force myself to do). Simple as that.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2015, 07:40:42 AM »
The paperwork and steps required to initiate physical action is the point though.  So many steps are required and documented in order to enact physical restraint and action against a patient.  This is a display of how rare we as adults want physical restraint and violence to be used against another adult.  Yet we would advocate quick physical violence against a child.  My mentioning of family members at bedside was not to say they are there but to point out that a familiar figure, discussing and reminding someone acting out is more effective than a physical altercation. 

Nobody is in disagreement that a child hurting themselves or another should be stopped, physically if necessary.  Where your comparison falls apart though is that people are advocating physical reprimand for bad behavior which is something that cannot be done to a patient.  Therefore you are comparing apples and oranges here. 

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2015, 08:05:05 AM »
That's... not actually what you said, though; you were outright dismissive of other methods, directly equated them with doing nothing, and directly equated "discipline" with corporal punishment.
You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts. Fact; There are, in fact, other methods of child discipline.

Have there really? The literature overwhelmingly disagrees with you. So does the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Of the links you posted: First one references a 'study' with a small sample size (179 subjects), relying entirely on surveys for data collection, using a very limited definition of 'spanking' that is neither mentioned in the article nor an accurate model of the typical case, and oh yeah it was rejected every time it was submitted for peer review. This is not good science.

Second article... references the same damn study.

The third... cites no actual data, and is from Focus on the Family, which severely damages its credibility in my eyes. The 'expert' who wrote it has literally zero cites I am able to find in the literature on the subject, likely because as far as I can tell he did not study child psychology.

Fourth... is an opinion piece by someone with no relevant credentials, citing nothing.

The evidence does not support your claims in any meaningful sense. We've done real science on this - lots of it - and the most glowing recommendation I've found of spanking is "It doesn't appear to be actively harmful, as long as it's done in a way that severely limits its long-term effectiveness as a punihsment."

It is simple to discredit things, although those links you provided are no hard evidence to back any claims of your own.

I am not going to bother bouncing from site to site through the first one.

As for the second one. I will quote this.

Quote
Parents who spank their children are more likely to use other unacceptable forms of corporal punishment.

Depends on the parent. The worse I got was a belt and I never had welts.


Quote
The more children are spanked, the more anger they report as adults, the more likely they are to spank their own children, the more likely they are to approve of hitting a spouse, and the more marital conflict they experience as adults

Seriously? I have been through plenty of spankings, I have friends who were treated similar growing up. Yes, some of those will spank their children, but as a means to an end when everything else falls on 'deaf' ears. None of them or me approve of domestic violence. I do not see how punishment reflects on martial conflict, unless there is a severe difference of opinion on how to punish said children.

 
Quote
Spanking has been associated with higher rates of physical aggression, more substance abuse, and increased risk of crime and violence22 when used with older children and adolescents.

Yea? Where have these studies been concluded? I have turned out fine as have friends, co-workers, and other people I know. Only individuals that abuse substances is liquor, but no one is perfect. As far as crime and violence goes, only one person I personally know has been to jail once and they never been to it again. Prison teaches a life experience in itself. As does certain forms of punishment in general.


Spanking is merely another means of an end of correcting behavior. How are you going to handle a child when all else fails? Take away their things and they still cut up, put them in time out, forced some other means of end of redeeming themselves on them? What if they still rebel? Is it okay for parents to be complete pacifists towards corporal punishment? Maybe some can pull it off, because they are blessed with kids that may follow through, but what will you do if not? Take em to a doctor and get them 'drugged' up?

Needless to say, discipline all boils down to how you are raised, the ethics you grew up with. Ethics vary with region, I was brought up in the South and taught how to be respectful, such teachings often involved a firm hand which I am thankful as I turned out just fine in my life. Though I do not see any point of further derailing this topic at hand as it is more about spanking or punishing other people's kids. Parents have a right to handle their young-ins in whatever way they want, however I see it bad parenting to just turn a blind eye and never make an ends approach to correcting repetitive rebellious and chaotic behaviors. It is just as insulting to witness such to my upbringing when others ignore and let their children do whatever they want. It teaches those kids in return nothing other than the fact they are free from punishment in general.


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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2015, 08:25:15 AM »
Yea? Where have these studies been concluded?

Since there was a footnote citation on the bit that you quoted, I went back to the article that you quoted it from, and found that the full text of that particular study was available for free:

This link takes you to the abstract.  The PDF file of the actual study is to the right of that.

Offline Aethereal

Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2015, 08:26:47 AM »
Quote
I have turned out fine as have friends, co-workers, and other people I know.
      You turned out a decent person despite the abuse. Not everyone will. I have a friend whose body was frequently covered in bruises, who got yelled at and humiliated on a daily basis, et cetera, et cetera when they were a child, but they're a decent person now, too. There are rape victims, kidnap victims and all kinds of victims who are perfectly functional members of society. Y'know, despite all that. And then there are plenty of people who have issues from things like that decades down the road.
       "But *I* don't have any issues from it, from what I can tell," isn't really an argument. I myself may be ridiculously thick-skinned, but I won't go around telling people "bullying is not an issue, because *I* can't bring myself to care is some stranger calls me names".

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2015, 08:29:04 AM »
Since there was a footnote citation on the bit that you quoted, I went back to the article that you quoted it from, and found that the full text of that particular study was available for free:

This link takes you to the abstract.  The PDF file of the actual study is to the right of that.

Which requires a subscription, something I will not do.  ::)

      You turned out a decent person despite the abuse. Not everyone will. I have a friend whose body was frequently covered in bruises, who got yelled at and humiliated on a daily basis, et cetera, et cetera when they were a child, but they're a decent person now, too. There are rape victims, kidnap victims and all kinds of victims who are perfectly functional members of society. Y'know, despite all that. And then there are plenty of people who have issues from things like that decades down the road.
       "But *I* don't have any issues from it, from what I can tell," isn't really an argument. I myself may be ridiculously thick-skinned, but I won't go around telling people "bullying is not an issue, because *I* can't bring myself to care is some stranger calls me names".

Since when is spanking abuse? If it is rough enough to leave visible marks, perhaps, depending on the extremity of such. If it is to point of breaking skin, then yes, there is probably some domestic violence, child abuse problem going on there.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 08:33:39 AM by Drake Valentine »

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Re: Is it wrong to discipline/frighten other people's children?
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2015, 08:32:35 AM »
Which requires a subscription, something I will not do.  ::)

Funny.  I don't have a subscription, and accessed it just fine.  http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/98/4/834.full.pdf+html