There have been a lot of replies since my last post so I'm going to try and respond to each of them as best I can.
Avis habilis, I read through your 3 links. Which I have to say... This is starting to become like some kind of essay or something however I'm trying to stay as informed and relevant as possible when responding to people who have addressed my points (Though I feel most of my points are being ignored entirely.)
In the first link you posted I picked up on "In attempting to pass as black, Dolezal falsely represented her identity. Trans people don't lie about their gender identities — they express their gender according to categories that reflect who they are." I thought that was a somewhat contradictory statement. Without any real proof the opinion
implies that in being true to themselves people who are trans are being honest, yet Dolezal is lying. The article did very little to convince me that there are no similarities between the two issues. There was also "Amidst the many hilarious Dolezal-related memes" which are of course at the expense of Dolezal, the author of the post clearly has no problem with making fun of Dolezal while seemingly being 'offended' at a possible comparison between Dolezal and Jenner.
I read through your other link talking about how Jon Stewart addressed the issue. He made some good points, one of which I actually made earlier on in the thread, which is the media's overreaction on the issue. It really isn't an issue that deserves all the time they have dedicated to it given that there is real
news that is happening, as opposed to the actions of one woman most people consider 'crazy'. I'm a big fan of Jon Stewart and the Daily Show but I don't always agree with what he says. The correspondent's view seemed to be that its okay for Dolezal to help the black community just not have the audacity to try and be a part of it. The exact words being "We don't need oppression cosplay. We need allies, not replacements." Which honestly sounded a tad racist to me. For better or worse Dolezal has been passing as black for what.. Something like 10 years, who is to say she hasn't experienced life as 'A black person' in that time, and been 'judged' as a black person in that time. If she managed to fool black people into thinking she was black, I'm sure white people would have also been fooled. Regardless it seemed that the Correspondent dismissed pretty much EVERYTHING about Dolezal simply because she identifies as black.
Also you posted 3 links. Here are 3 links that I found very easily.
(A psychologist talks about why transgender isn't a thing)
(Talks bout the trangender 'agenda' to destroy everyone's identity, needless to say it is an anti tans article)
(About a 5 year old who identifies as a different gender than the one they were born with, and the article goes on to say how that is impossible because kids that young can't identify to a particular sexual identity)
Of course I don't believe the bs in any of those links, but you might be asking why I posted them in the first place? To illustrate that just because there is a source for something, doesn't mean its true. You linked 3 articles which had a particular narrative, just because they claimed that Jenner and Dolezal were two entirely different issues (Mind you not all 3 of the articles said this(, doesn't necessarily mean its true as I very easily was able to find bigoted articles against transgender.
I have never ONCE
claimed that the two issues are identical, which seems to be the gist of most of these 'those are two different issues' articles seem to say. All I have suggested is that the two issues have similarities, which is an opinion a few people in this thread share.
la dame en noir, this is a public thread therefore I think I'm entitled to respond to the points that everyone makes. Unless it is against the rules for me to respond to someone when they ask, if that is a case and a mod or admin says so, I will respect the rules, until then if I feel I have a point to make about your post, I will. Another thing I wanted to point out. You asked me not to respond to what you are saying, yet you continue to respond to me. Although honestly I have no problem with you responding to me as I'm writing this in a public forum and anyone who wishes is free to challenge or respond to any of the points I'm making.
You said that she mentioned she is bisexual to try and relate to Jenner somehow for sympathy/attention. The truth is that is an assumption on your part, you really have no way of knowing what Dolezal's sexuality is. You talk about me making assumptions and don't hold yourself to the same standard.
As for the points you made:
1. White men and women have been apart of the NAACP since its foundation - she didn't have to be black to get a leading role.
-So if white people have been a part of the NAACP what is the real issue here? Do you have any critiques about the actual work she has done while at the NAACP? Or does none of that matter because 'omg she is lying about being black' How has her work at the NAACP affected the black community negatively? What race she is or isn't doesn't seem to me like it would have an impact on the work itself.
2. Most black people could care less about the NAACP because they actually don't do much for the black community.
-If most black people don't care about the NAACP anyway, why is Dolezal such a big deal? I'd think that her presence would be even less relevant since the black community doesn't care what the NAACP does.
3. After they found out about her lies, she stepped down - even though she still called herself black afterwards.
- Lying means that in part she is a bad person, it still doesn't mean that just because she has told a few lies she doesn't have the right to express herself. I have lied about quite a few things in the past, as have you, as has everyone I'm sure. Self expression isn't dependent on a person's level of honesty or dishonesty.
4. She fabricated hate crimes
- I actually haven't heard anything about this. I remember reading something yesterday about how she accused her husband of sexually assaulting her while they were married. If she did fabricate hate crimes that would be messed up. If you can give me a link about this I'll read through it and give you my honest opinion on it.
5. Now she's trying to receive sympathy and is now claiming to be bisexual (I'm not even going to go into how unaccepting most of the black community is about LGBT people)
-Err... What does this have anything to do with Dolezal and her issues? It seems your point is more about the insensitivity of the black community in relation to LGBT issues, you can't project that onto Dolezal as if she is somehow responsible for the black community being insensitive to LGBT?
6. She then sued Howard University for discrimination as a white woman (but I thought she was black, hmm)
-It is a weird thing for her to do since she claims to identify as black.. But... How is a white woman suing a university for being white affect the black community? Seems like it is another issue that doesn't really affect the black community.
"The reason I got so mad about the hair is because its always trendy when a white man or woman does, but filthy - nasty - animalistic - unprofessional, when someone black wears their hair naturally."
I don't think Dolezal has any control over how others view hair? It seems like you're unfairly projecting issues that don't originate with Dolezal.
"something tragic must have happened in her childhood
she seeks attention
she's a pathological liar"
Does that mean it is okay for an entire community to single her out, condemn her, and make fun of her? Or should she possibly be left alone to get her life together if you truly believe she is such a troubled person?
Sho, in regards to what you said about hair. I think the issue is how other people view it, not what Dolezal is doing. Others think knots and dreads are dirty. It seems to me THAT is the narrative that we should be trying to change. Dolezal doesn't have any influence about what others think about hairstyle and hygiene. You cited the use of the 'n' word in rap songs how its okay for black people to use and say, yet not okay for white people or people outside the black race to sing along to simply because of their skin color. So according to you there is a word that one group of people can say because of their skin color, but another group has no right to say because they are a different skin color. To me
that is one of the key examples of what racism is.
You wrote -
"The thing is, even if it seems like it should be, it's not okay for white people to take a traditionally black style. The primary reason that it's not okay is that these cultures, in particular black culture in America, have had to fight to have these styles and symbols acknowledged as 'acceptable' by mainstream white culture. In watering down the meaning behind hairstyles and music those things don't actually become more inclusive, they're simply robbed of their cultural meaning and instead become something 'white'. In short, it's 'cool' when Kylie Jenner wears dreads, but it's considered 'dirty' if someone black does it, and the difference is perception is solely based on their skin color. That's why it's so important not to appropriate things from cultures that we haven't lived in ourselves (appreciating is one thing, but appropriating is another, and it's a very fine and delicate line to walk)."
I'm failing to see how that line of thinking makes sense. I'm not trying to trivialize the struggles that black people have gone through in the past, or continue to go through in the present day, however what I don't see is why certain things have to remain 'exclusive' to the black culture. It would be like the white community saying "Black people don't have the right to listen to or compose country music" When a non black person does something that is a part of black culture, why can't it mean that they are actively contributing to the culture, or taking part in celebrating it, as opposed to doing harm? Again it just seems kinda racist to me. My personal belief is that people who are black should be able to express themselves however they want. If they want to dress and act in a way that most white people do.. I don't think that is going to be the downfall of white culture, just like I don't see there is nothing wrong with a white person wearing dreads, and an afro, or listening and enjoying rap music.
"Additionally, I think the well-placed anger towards her comes from the fact that this white woman purported herself to be black and then stepped forwards to speak for the black community. Though she may be very invested in the black community and while she may want to help, it is an unfortunate but undeniable truth that because she is not black, she does not have the right to speak for that community as if she were one of them."
For something like 10 years she passed off as black. Sure she doesn't know what it is like to be a slave, but then again neither do you. In ten years I can't imagine that Dolezal hasn't faced discrimination while others have thought she was black. If you believe that Dolezal can't speak for/as a black person because she was born white, then in turn you must also believe that Caitlyn Jenner can never speak for women because she was born and lived most of her life as a man.
"There are arguments that if someone is transgender that the concept of transracialism is possible. In the future, it may be (personally, I hope not). It's not right now. It certainly isn't alright that as a woman born into the most 'privileged' of races in America, being white, she 'switched' her race. People say that people who are transgender (I do hope I'm using the right terminology, and I sincerely apologize if I'm not) have different brain chemistry from their physical makeup. There isn't any proof to indicate that the same is true for race i.e. that if you are born a certain race you think one way rather than another."
The issue of transgender is one that has been in our community for some time, so sure there has been tests and experiments to show that people who are transgender have a different brain chemistry. On the same note, how can you objectively say that Dolezal has the same mind/brain chemistry as a white person as opposed to a black person's? There really isn't any objective proof that Dolezal is 'faking' or that she is lying when she says she identifies as black.
" It's akin to someone showing up at your doorstep and claiming to be a distant cousin, gaining your trust as if they were a family member, and then being caught in a lie and saying "well, I felt like your cousin so it's okay, because I've acted like one". "
That is pretty messed up and I'm not going to lie I probably would be upset, even angry. However I don't think I'd lash out at that person, mock that person, and try to draw needless attention to that person. Whoever would do something that messed up obviously has mental issues, issues that they themselves need to deal with. I would exclude that person from my life and hope they get the help they need. I believe THAT would be the reasonable way to deal with that issue.
"The sad thing is that I genuinely believe she wanted to help the black community...but she hurt it instead, at the end of the day."
I still don't see how she hurt the entire black community. The only issue I see is that she took a scholarship from a person who was actually black. That would be her affecting one black person, I don't see any ripples that fan out to the black community as a result. I already made this example in an earlier post and I'll do it again. Because a black person robs a store that is owned by a white person, doesn't mean the entire white community is affected by that one black person. It was a crime being committed by a criminal, that is all.
Ephiral, you stated:
"People make the falllacious and insulting comparison a lot, it gets debunked a lot. The comparison is harmful to trans people, feeding the ongoing myth that we are lying about ourselves and therefore it is acceptable to kill us. As a white trans* person, I can assure you there is very little about my lived experience that comes anywhere near that of either a cis PoC or Rachel Dolezal. Please stop pushing this harmful comparison. And while we're at it, IntensePlayer, could you maybe please try to stop erasing Caitlyn Jenner's identity?"
First of all I am sorry that you feel what I've been saying as harmful or insulting. That is not my intention however I can't control how you react, and if I see comparisons between the two issues I believe I have every right to state them. I have no doubt that your experiences are very different than Dolezal's, that still doesn't change how I view things. A lot of people believe that transgender isn't 'a thing'. Just because they think that however doesn't make it true. Just like how a lot of people think that transracial isn't a 'thing', that also doesn't mean that its not a thing.
Lastly what you said about me erasing Caitlyn Jenner's identity. I would ask you to go back and read what I've written on the subject. I have stated a few times that I am pro LGBT, not that I really need to justify my views. As to the subject at hand I will clarify my view on Caitlyn Jenner. I do not have a SINGLE thing against her. I believe she has every right to do as she wishes. If what makes her happy is to identify/act/dress as a woman, she should have every right to do so. Her actions affect me in no way whatsoever. I also think it is perfectly fine that she lived over half her life as a man. It is also something that doesn't harm anyone, so I don't think anyone should have an issue with it. I see similarities between Caitlyn Jenner and Dolezal in the sense that both are simply trying to live life the way that makes them happy. The only thing I have done is relay what others have said on the issue to illustrate how discriminatory things said about Jenner also seem to apply to Dolezal. I have never ONCE said that Jenner doesn't have the right to be who she wants, so honestly I don't know where your statement about me 'erasing' Caitlyn Jenner's identity comes from. If you find a particular thing I said that you believe contributes to that please feel free to bring it to my attention and I will clarify it for you.