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Author Topic: Orc Warlords of Faerun (3.5 heavily houseruled DnD player interest check)  (Read 8212 times)

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Offline Muse

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*Grins* Thank you, Summer.  Pleasing Physique it is. 

Offline HopeFox

Excellent. Kunoichi is still here!

I confess I've kinda kept a low profile because I don't want to get a hard time for not being able to find a cleric prc or want a ranger one.  I h 7ess my 3.5 muscles have gotten flabby. Sweat drop.

Don't worry. I've been feeling rather inadequate because I'm not at all familiar with Forgotten Realms stuff. Straight Ranger 14 is actually pretty cool, anyway.

If you do want a prestige class for the cleric side, my standard go-to is Contemplative - it just plain makes you closer to your deity, with a bunch of outsider-like traits and a bonus domain. All you need is 13 ranks of Knowledge (religion) and the ability to cast first level divine spells. It has poor BAB and hit dice, but your Ranger side covers that.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 06:19:49 AM by HopeFox »

Offline eternaldarkness

I believe I shall redo Orro and switch his Arcane side to dread Necromancer after all. Undead are a great way to swell the ranks of your followers quickly, and I love me a DN.

Offline Summer

First of all, I do believe I've managed to get all of my character stuffs completed except for items.

God King is scary, but cohort is somehow even scarier in some ways (despite being two levels lower). Watch out for her >.>

I'll figure out their items, finalize it, and then post here when finished.


That being said, I have a question: how do we determine leadership scores?

HD+obvious modifiers (such as leadership feats) is one thing, but what about the ones that are more subjective? Would my character be of great renown? Be considered to have a special power? Be known for fairness and generosity? Have a stronghold?

Do we just ignore that and go with HD+Cha+Leadership feats? Is it on a per-person basis?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2015, 11:39:27 AM by Summer »

Offline Muse

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  I need this information as well, please.  :) 

Offline HopeFox

I've been ignoring the reputation modifiers so far. They're a bit subjective - what counts as "cruelty" when you and your followers are all orcs?

Offline PaleEnchantress

I've been ignoring the reputation modifiers so far. They're a bit subjective - what counts as "cruelty" when you and your followers are all orcs?

I usually take the hit for a reputation of cruelty. As a tyrannical God-Queen my zelous or subjugated followers may be slightly fewer in number then if I were benevolent, but il still charismatic enough that it hardly matters.

Offline Muse

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Kesk Lamar

Just an update.  Chosen picture and all. 

Offline Kolbrandr

I'm sorting out stats and the like, (and typing up a backstory mostly because I'm not really able to make a character without typing up them things), I was looking to ask though just to refine some setting stuff. Presumably there's a pharaoh kicking it around in Mulhorand that those of us more openly in society would have to obey? Are we sort of otherwise considered some kind of autonomous authority from the fellow? Other?

Offline PaleEnchantress

I'm sorting out stats and the like, (and typing up a backstory mostly because I'm not really able to make a character without typing up them things), I was looking to ask though just to refine some setting stuff. Presumably there's a pharaoh kicking it around in Mulhorand that those of us more openly in society would have to obey? Are we sort of otherwise considered some kind of autonomous authority from the fellow? Other?

At this time in Faerunian History there is no Mortal Pharaoh, the God kings rule directly. It wasn't until after the spell plague that a mortal was in power in Mulhorand.

Offline Kolbrandr

Pharaoh at this time was a God King, is my note. More particularly, Re himself sat at the top of things as such as a manifestation and his incarnations, dwelling in the actual world instead of out in the planes. It's a large organized, even stratified society with a hierarchical head, and if the canon change is that the god kings were instead simply various powerful figures affiliated with the gods in one way or another, it makes a question of who is running the country, is what I'm getting at. We're not Set, Osiris, Re, etc, we're not even their incarnations, we're just very strongly affiliated with them. Is Pharaoh similarly thereby some dude? Do we have dealings with said dude?

There was a line of Pharaohs well before the spellplague that up until the time of troubles were basically "dudes who were divine incarnations for Re/Ra" followed by his death and merging with Horus as "dudes who were incarnations for Horus-Re", followed by the time of troubles with "A dude who could call on Horus-Re's avatar to inhabit him sometimes". And then, y'know, Mulhorand exploded/got spellplagued. The manifestation/incarnation system didn't otherwise stop until the Time of Troubles. Until then Pharaoh was basically a piece of a god that sometimes died and was thus a new person who was a piece of a god. Mulhorand was never really ruled by a true mortal until very late in the scheme of things.

edit: So.. Mulhorand stuff.

So at the top of things you had the manifestations of the Gods, who are more less, the Gods, living in the world because of having... that's a long and overly involved story, so, short version, they live in the world. They're mostly trying to reconnect to their main divine selves than anything else. They govern Mulhorand through creating incarnations of themselves, which are more or less avatars incarnated in mortal bodies. If an incarnation dies, the manifested god just ultimately repeats the process when viable. They roll out in person for the Orcgate wars, where Re dies/merges with Horus-Re. The system otherwise basically resumes as it had been with the manifestations again being mostly withdrawn and trying to rejoin the bulk of their divine power out in the planes and things otherwise organized through incarnations.

And that's more than a bit unwieldy and I'm cool with changes to it, but it just raises a thing of "Who runs this joint". Even Unther at the time was otherwise being run by Enlil such that he bequeathed it to Gilgeam once he got sick of doing so.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 02:19:17 AM by Kolbrandr »

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

I say all god kings/warchiefs/archmages have by default great renown and with champions they got great renown once they hit 10th level (this is my personal measurement for fame). Special Power applies varied manner; those who got 7th level as glorious servitors get +1 reputation, in warchiefs the clans who do not have 'spit upon gods' curse and have divine caster who can cast 7th level divine spells counts having special power. Archmages qualify if they can cast a limited wish. Generosity/fairness/cruelty etc are decided by yourself does it apply or not.

Now, I say whoever is Re's god king/queen is head of the council and governs the capital directly. As we differ from canon that gods does not walk directly but rather part of their spirit resides in these god kings/queens, so as leader of pantheon Re is the boss and thus his chosen one rules the capital and leads the council (as note council is form which has been used and Re's chosen one is called pharao while none other god kings/queens are not called such).

Offline Kolbrandr

So my talking like/suggesting there be an npc Pharaoh, aside from wanting to clear up how the society functions here, (and I'm happy to pick another god if it will make for that being the case) basically comes down to that Mulhorand is a big ol society with a big ol pile of resources that wouldn't be well represented by our personal stuff or armies, which are from my understanding various orders and groups within the overall nation. As a figure to have to lobby for periodic access to those larger resources instead, that would work for that role.

You otherwise end up with a bit of "why can I only draw on this chunk of this giant empire's resources" dissonance, when there's an easy answer of "because Pharaoh controls that crap and you are not him, if you want more than what you have, go lobby the dude." It's also makes it a comparative tradeoff with the orcs, who are free to run around in whatever direction and can more build alliances with other warlords on equal footing.

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Ok, but then comes problem that pharaoh should by default have highest divine CL from Mulhorand/Unther combined......expect if the present pharaoh is a child! Let's do so that there is pharaoh (a NPC) who is considered as chosen of Re and also blood based lineage to sit on the throne, however he is ten year old child with noble caretaker looking over him. Because of his age he cannot rule yet but to avoid corruption the caretaker cannot run things, so council of god kings/queens rule the kingdom but none of them have access to entire might of the kingdom (as those belong to pharaoh only but he cannot make any use of them yet).

The system is automated to extend it does not cripple/stagnate kingdom to be such stasis for few years until pharaoh is considered adult but it denies present rulers not able use entire resource (just fraction of it and it's equal to their orders what they have and their income what they get).

Offline Kolbrandr

That's as fine, just looking for, how to put it, a sense of how a very changed setting would function as far as the image of it and just some narrative rigor.

I'll stick with Re then if that's fine, since I would imagine if the rightful ruler is 10, Re is having other people run around to act on any of his personal agendas in the interim.

Offline HopeFox

I say all god kings/warchiefs/archmages have by default great renown and with champions they got great renown once they hit 10th level (this is my personal measurement for fame). Special Power applies varied manner; those who got 7th level as glorious servitors get +1 reputation, in warchiefs the clans who do not have 'spit upon gods' curse and have divine caster who can cast 7th level divine spells counts having special power. Archmages qualify if they can cast a limited wish. Generosity/fairness/cruelty etc are decided by yourself does it apply or not.

Cool, that all works fine. I think I will leave Lugash's reputation as neutral for now, and as the game progresses I'll see whether his actions warrant being renowned for cruelty or fairness (he is lawful, after all).

Offline eternaldarkness

I say all god kings/warchiefs/archmages have by default great renown and with champions they got great renown once they hit 10th level (this is my personal measurement for fame). Special Power applies varied manner; those who got 7th level as glorious servitors get +1 reputation, in warchiefs the clans who do not have 'spit upon gods' curse and have divine caster who can cast 7th level divine spells counts having special power. Archmages qualify if they can cast a limited wish. Generosity/fairness/cruelty etc are decided by yourself does it apply or not.

Now, I say whoever is Re's god king/queen is head of the council and governs the capital directly. As we differ from canon that gods does not walk directly but rather part of their spirit resides in these god kings/queens, so as leader of pantheon Re is the boss and thus his chosen one rules the capital and leads the council (as note council is form which has been used and Re's chosen one is called pharao while none other god kings/queens are not called such).

Does being able to make scrolls of Limited Wish and other seventh-level spells count? Warlocks get most of their casting versatility from item creation.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 04:39:42 PM by eternaldarkness »

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

I say in warlock's case able craft limited wish scrolls would work but no one else.

Offline Miroque

@Zaer: What were the rules to create PC Cohort ? (and if said Master takes the Improved Cohort, would that cohort be lv13?)

Offline PaleEnchantress

I'll stick with Re then if that's fine, since I would imagine if the rightful ruler is 10, Re is having other people run around to act on any of his personal agendas in the interim.

Ah a 10 year old, Good that gives me plenty of time to corrupt them. Suddenly Fiend of Posession Jerion is looking better then ever.


So my talking like/suggesting there be an npc Pharaoh, aside from wanting to clear up how the society functions here, (and I'm happy to pick another god if it will make for that being the case) basically comes down to that Mulhorand is a big ol society with a big ol pile of resources that wouldn't be well represented by our personal stuff or armies, which are from my understanding various orders and groups within the overall nation. As a figure to have to lobby for periodic access to those larger resources instead, that would work for that role.

You otherwise end up with a bit of "why can I only draw on this chunk of this giant empire's resources" dissonance, when there's an easy answer of "because Pharaoh controls that crap and you are not him, if you want more than what you have, go lobby the dude." It's also makes it a comparative tradeoff with the orcs, who are free to run around in whatever direction and can more build alliances with other warlords on equal footing.

This is a question this question creates more problems in trying to answer it. Yes, the resources we as PC's have is less than what Mulhorand realistically had. No that does not mean the majority of Mulhorands wealth is somewhere else not being used by us. What The God Kings have access to by the game rules is the majority of wealth in that portion of Mulhorand. That the Orc warlords have a similar amount despite being in a less economical position is just hand waved away because it's whats fair. - I don't see how having a massive amount of extra funds not available to us, but potentially able to access a bit of through bureaucratic measures is anything but a bigger issue than what you're trying to solve.  Other than being a great reason for Set to want to kill Re and his family of mortal mouth pieces, what about a vast treasury (I understand its not literally a single vault but the riches in the large territory of mulhorand) somewhere off to the side enhances gameplay? I see it as something that takes the focus away from out own mini economies. It's the best target for plunder for all but the 2 PC's who protect it.

Ok, but then comes problem that pharaoh should by default have highest divine CL from Mulhorand/Unther combined......expect if the present pharaoh is a child!

The child Pharaoh idea is a fine one, I quite like it. But what makes you feel an adult Pharaoh would be the most powerful caster in that area of the world?  I wouldn't think the mortal temporal rules would even be close to the Uterite Archmages or God-Kings, much less be stronger. Even if they were more then mere figureheads, as I would expect them to be. Just as Murt the moneylender isn't more powerful than some residents of waterdeep, despite being one of the rulers of the city.

Pharaoh at this time was a God King, is my note. More particularly, Re himself sat at the top of things as such as a manifestation and his incarnations, dwelling in the actual world instead of out in the planes. It's a large organized, even stratified society with a hierarchical head, and if the canon change is that the god kings were instead simply various powerful figures affiliated with the gods in one way or another, it makes a question of who is running the country, is what I'm getting at. We're not Set, Osiris, Re, etc, we're not even their incarnations, we're just very strongly affiliated with them. Is Pharaoh similarly thereby some dude? Do we have dealings with said dude?

There was a line of Pharaohs well before the spellplague that up until the time of troubles were basically "dudes who were divine incarnations for Re/Ra" followed by his death and merging with Horus as "dudes who were incarnations for Horus-Re", followed by the time of troubles with "A dude who could call on Horus-Re's avatar to inhabit him sometimes". And then, y'know, Mulhorand exploded/got spellplagued. The manifestation/incarnation system didn't otherwise stop until the Time of Troubles. Until then Pharaoh was basically a piece of a god that sometimes died and was thus a new person who was a piece of a god. Mulhorand was never really ruled by a true mortal until very late in the scheme of things.

edit: So.. Mulhorand stuff.

Where are you finding this information? I do believe you on there being a mortal royal family and Pharaoh, but I can't find anything on that. What I'm not seeing is something that states the God-Kings were anything but the same deific manifestations that lead the rebellion against Imaskar. I might remember reading something about them taking a mortal form, possessing their body, but I don't where it says that these bodies weren't directly controlled by the Gods, or that the bodies continued to age and retain such worldly concerns. Even if they aren't truly immortal like the deities themselves.- Also What is the difference between Re's Pharaoh and Re's God-King? It seems to me that with this set up the child Pharaoh is just the next in line for Re to mege with. Re being the leader of the pantheon would have his incarnation be the one most of the others accepted as the one in control over all. If we get rid of the idea that the royal family has access to some vast amount of wealth unavailable to the god-kings (an idea I dislike). This could be exactly what the case is.

Offline eternaldarkness

I say in warlock's case able craft limited wish scrolls would work but no one else.

Well the only other class as far as I know that can make scrolls of spells they can't cast is artificer, so it really doesn't matter if nobody else can have it count :P

Offline Miroque

I think ShaŽir can , but not totally sure on the fact.

Offline Kolbrandr

Quote
This is a question this question creates more problems in trying to answer it. Yes, the resources we as PC's have is less than what Mulhorand realistically had. No that does not mean the majority of Mulhorands wealth is somewhere else not being used by us. What The God Kings have access to by the game rules is the majority of wealth in that portion of Mulhorand. That the Orc warlords have a similar amount despite being in a less economical position is just hand waved away because it's whats fair. - I don't see how having a massive amount of extra funds not available to us, but potentially able to access a bit of through bureaucratic measures is anything but a bigger issue than what you're trying to solve.  Other than being a great reason for Set to want to kill Re and his family of mortal mouth pieces, what about a vast treasury (I understand its not literally a single vault but the riches in the large territory of mulhorand) somewhere off to the side enhances gameplay? I see it as something that takes the focus away from out own mini economies. It's the best target for plunder for all but the 2 PC's who protect it.

Why would there only be 2 PCs protecting it? It's talking like we're the only people in all of Mulhorand commanding any forces and capable of action or are people capable of action, which would mean similarly the two pc orc warlords that there are are the only orc warlords actually invading the area and the Orcgate wars here are then on a vastly smaller scale than previously intimated at. I'd presume there are a variety of npc orc warlords rolling around with their own forces, just as I'd figure there are other people in a colossal empire doing things than just us.

You might as well say by the same token of "we're handwaving that detail, there is no wide scale national organization or wealth, there's only what we have", "what orc horde invading Mulhorand and Unther, there's only however many dudes the orc warlord pcs have", and when that's 10-15 times leadership followers, that hugely reduces the scale of this conflict. It's a strain on credulity and just a sense of narrative that all involved sides had maybe 2-4000 guys involved in fighting when it's supposed to be this massive invasion of massive territory and clashes of empires and all that kind of thing. Well less for Unther, since they've only the one pc leading figure.

Also, your character is not Set by my understanding, they're someone affiliated with Set. Set's generally stopped from waxing Re and doing what you note for than an entire pantheon of gods would be in Set's face about that. And also to a degree Set's own personality. And also that in this iteration, Set's not rolling around the world. Murdering Osiris required the general chaos of Re being dead, and Re's own death required him having gotten it pretty bad from the orc gods.

Quote
Where are you finding this information?

Old Empires and Powers and Pantheons.

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Also What is the difference between Re's Pharaoh and Re's God-King?

Canonically? That the Pharoah, before the time of troubles, is an incarnation in a long running series of incarnations, a lesser piece of Re in a mortal dude, or, after the merger, a lesser piece of Horus-Re in a mortal dude and basically a sort of lesser God King. Re as full out God King is Re's manifestation, and the bulk of Re's existence in Toril as a god, unable to connect to Re/Ra proper in the outer planes.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 06:06:26 PM by Kolbrandr »

Offline PaleEnchantress

Why would there only be 2 PCs protecting it? It's talking like we're the only people in all of Mulhorand commanding any forces and capable of action or are people capable of action, which would mean similarly the two pc orc warlords that there are are the only orc warlords actually invading the area and the Orcgate wars here are then on a vastly smaller scale than previously intimated at. I'd presume there are a variety of npc orc warlords rolling around with their own forces, just as I'd figure there are other people in a colossal empire doing things than just us.

Because there *are* only 2 PC's protecting it. You can say "And I'll get the DM to add in all the population I don't control as additional defenders" then everyone else will have all their off camera allied population join in too and you've got the same ratio of "Grossly Outgunned" with just inflated numbers everywhere.

You might as well say by the same token of "we're handwaving that detail, there is no wide scale national organization or wealth, there's only what we have", "what orc horde invading Mulhorand and Unther, there's only however many dudes the orc warlord pcs have", and when that's 10-15 times leadership followers, that hugely reduces the scale of this conflict. It's a strain on credulity and just a sense of narrative that all involved sides had maybe 2-4000 guys involved in fighting when it's supposed to be this massive invasion of massive territory and clashes of empires and all that kind of thing. Well less for Unther, since they've only the one pc leading figure.

Maybe we are hand waving all that. Sounds like a fine idea to me.

Also, your character is not Set by my understanding, they're someone affiliated with Set. Set's generally stopped from waxing Re and doing what you note for than an entire pantheon of gods would be in Set's face about that. And also to a degree Set's own personality. And also that in this iteration, Set's not rolling around the world. Murdering Osiris required the general chaos of Re being dead, and Re's own death required him having gotten it pretty bad from the orc gods.

Is this information in the books you mentioned? I'll have to see if I can find them, might be some good reading. If it bothers you so much I said "Set" then replace it in your head with "Set's God Queen", either way you say it it's a force equal with your own.  From what I have read, the God Kings are incarnations are the same.

So the Pharoah is like a high priest that Re likes to let rule the people in his stead? Makes sense. This at least backs up what I was telling Zaer about the Pharaoh, even if he were an adult, not being higher level (or even equal to) the God-Kings. 

Offline Kolbrandr

Quote
Maybe we are hand waving all that. Sounds like a fine idea to me.

At some point when you're at a point of "the teeming orc hordes were just 2000 some odd dudes" "you possibly personally control cities of tens of thousands of people, but your own personal resources don't reflect that" and "this map of hundreds of thousands of people in this vast area is represented by this fractional thing", why use the particular setting?

It's starting to read like you're saying that I'm trying to arrange some kind of "You as Set and orc auto lose", but again, even just canonically, even when they lost, the orcs invaded in such vast and teeming numbers that the wars dragged on for years, even with things like throwing mercenaries at them and etc. Gods still died in buckets. Set still killed Osiris not long after it. With the orcs particularly in a stronger starting position than even that in this case and Unther and Mulhorand's god situation being changed up, I'm largely trying to cohere what actions remain viable and what the shape of the society still is.

The crack of "people are sure interested in Mulhorand" and Zaer noting "it's a rare chance to play in FR's lesser utilized nations, people like that". That's.. really rather true. I find the Old Empires really interesting and the chance to game around in them at a high scale during a climactic event is kinda exciting, it's why my first question in this thread basically boiled down to, so how much of this is gaming this event in the feel of them, even with some changes, and how much is more that it's just some light thematic flavouring for ultimately getting rolled and kinktacular things happen. Which, again, that's fine if that's the case, but the answer to that question seemed to be "no, it's full take on the events with some changes".

Quote
So the Pharoah is like a high priest that Re likes to let rule the people in his stead? Makes sense. This at least backs up what I was telling Zaer about the Pharaoh, even if he were an adult, not being higher level (or even equal to) the God-Kings.

The incarnations are invested with a portion of the God's power and identity. Re, followed by Horus Re, and the Gods like to be able to continue their ongoing futile effort to reconnect to the existence they had to leave behind to manifest in Toril and fight the Imaskari, so they make relatively tiny pieces of themselves they invest into mortals to handle doing anything else. Incarnations rule with the power they're given, and can live and die. This is to the point that an incarnation of Toth ruled Mulhorand as pharoh for a wee bit after Thay broke off, when all of Horus Re's incarnations at the time happened to be dead and he needed to make a new one.

That's all being ditched anyway, but that's basically the system.

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If it bothers you so much I said "Set" then replace it in your head with "Set's God Queen", either way you say it it's a force equal with your own.

Why wouldn't it be a force equal to my own? This is a request: could you please respond to my posts less combatatively and assuming the worst?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2015, 06:58:26 PM by Kolbrandr »