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Author Topic: The FHRITP heckler issue  (Read 1609 times)

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Offline Cycle

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2015, 07:48:18 PM »
... try explaining that to some of these guys. In fact the reporter did and he became even more arrogant.

The fact that there are other guys who also behave like that asshole is not a reason to go easier on that asshole.

The fact that such assholes are recalcitrant and unwilling to see that their behavior is unacceptable is not a reason to go easier on said assholes.

If anything, both are reasons to be harsher on said assholes.



Offline Zillah

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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2015, 09:17:03 PM »
I get harassed like that - or worse - at least once a week, while walking to work, or just trying to go get groceries or a coffee. It *is* hostile, and it's awful - and tiring - to hear all the time. It make me feel like I'm not a person.

Assholes indeed.

I'm glad he got fired.

Offline Corsair

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2015, 10:22:53 PM »
The fact that there are other guys who also behave like that asshole is not a reason to go easier on that asshole.

The fact that such assholes are recalcitrant and unwilling to see that their behavior is unacceptable is not a reason to go easier on said assholes.

If anything, both are reasons to be harsher on said assholes.

Chances are he became more arrogant because he knew he was wrong but didn't want to lose face. I agree he was a complete tool and so were his buddies. I think him losing his job was extreme though especially as his employer didn't even talk to him about it first, he was also humiliated on television and the internet which is a form of punishment as well.

Being fired is also not much of a deterrent for people who don't have jobs.

All I am getting at is the whole thing could have been handled much better from his employers side of things. This guy won't change and neither will guys like him because of him losing his job.


Offline Cycle

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2015, 10:54:39 PM »
Chances are he became more arrogant because he knew he was wrong but didn't want to lose face.

If true, then this is another reason for him to be fired.  People who can't see they are wrong can't learn.  Can't improve.  And hence have no place in a good organization.

If he won't change than he's useless and deserves everything he got.  And more.


Offline Corsair

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2015, 11:40:35 PM »
If true, then this is another reason for him to be fired.  People who can't see they are wrong can't learn.  Can't improve.  And hence have no place in a good organization.

If he won't change than he's useless and deserves everything he got.  And more.

Ok, so what does that extend to and where does it end? And who is going to be the judge of what a good person/worker is?




Offline Sho

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2015, 01:41:14 AM »
Beorning,

Judging by your tag, you're a male. As a female who is relatively small and works in a vastly male-dominated work environment, I'd just like to point out that yes, those sorts of threats (whether at work or not), do create a hostile work environment.

Let me give you an example.

If I, say, was working with a man who had committed the same offenses but WASN'T fired, I would feel genuinely uncomfortable being alone with him at the office. I would feel that I didn't want to be in a room with him. I would spend hours agonizing over whether or not my bosses agreed with him and thought that these "drunken mistakes", while "accidental" (according to your own theory that it's a one-time drunken offense), and that would ruin that workplace for me.

At the end of the day, the company did the right thing. They stood on the side of people who constantly face this sort of harassment (often women, though not always), and they showed that either in or out of the workplace, they will not tolerate people who espouse such behavior.

By your own theory that private and public lives should be separate, a senator who votes against gay marriage but has gay affairs should be unaffected by his personal life, right? A member of the Ku Klux Klan should be able to keep his job at a mixed-race firm even after racist rants come to life? (These are real examples, by the way).

At the end of the day, you pay for your mistakes. Any progressive workplace is going to say that your private life is your private life...if you make a reasonable attempt to actually keep it private (such as using a site like E, where the vast majority of boards are secret except to approved users). If you go shoving that 'private' life into the face of the public, then you're stepping into the bounds of what reflects upon the company. If you think that the actions of one employee can't taint the image of an overall company, you're mistaken.

Additionally, most American companies require employees to sign codes of conduct with their contracts that state that they will not do certain things - generally including heavy drug usage, engaging in sexism, etc. - both in and out of the workplace.

I think he got what he deserved and I applaud the company for thinking of the people who would have to work with him rather than falling on his side. He did something stupid and he got punished. Companies, particularly privately-owned ones (as well as public ones), have the right to decide who is working for them. They choose employees that fit their image and their ideals. If an employee violates that, they deserve to be sacked.

Also, for everyone using the slippery slope argument...I would love to see some examples of companies abusing this policy. The VAST majority of cases (as in, for every 1 poor example there are thousands of legitimate examples like this) of firings relating to poor outside-of-work behavior have to do with cases like this. When a man makes a joke like that, it is not a joke. Anyone who thinks it is has never genuinely felt the fear or threat of being smaller or in a situation where rape was a legitimate threat. If someone says "this doesn't feel like a joke", that is something that should be respected. To say that "I don't see it that way, so people should be free to make that sort of joke even though it's not funny and they shouldn't be punished in any way" (a general breakdown of what I've seen, since your version of punishing seems to be purely personal and in no way financial (aka job related)" is not only somewhat insulting, it is genuinely scary. It is scary to realize that a number of men take these things as casual jokes.

For every ten men that make a joke like this, there will be one who is genuinely considering those actions (obviously this is an example and not a statistical number). While free speech in America is a right, so is the right to take a stand against those who make "jokes" that are not only threatening, but undermine women in the workplace.

TL;DR: He is free to say whatever he wants to say...just as the company is free to say that they find his behavior disgusting and, like a friend who has abused your trust, they will no longer associate themselves with him.

Offline Zillah

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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2015, 07:14:55 AM »
FWIW, I'm constantly amazed that people think saying something like FHRITP - particularly in public, and particularly directed at someone they don't even know - should only be construed as a joke, and couldn't possibly be taken as harassment, or a threat.

If this is a "hobby" for some people ... wow. I don't even know what to say, except that's kind of sad. And scary.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2015, 09:36:45 AM »
FWIW, I'm constantly amazed that people think saying something like FHRITP - particularly in public, and particularly directed at someone they don't even know - should only be construed as a joke, and couldn't possibly be taken as harassment, or a threat.

If this is a "hobby" for some people ... wow. I don't even know what to say, except that's kind of sad. And scary.

I don't think it's a joke or hobby. It was tasteless and foolish. Do I think he should lose his entire livelihood for it? No. I see zero chance for him changing now, and if he honestly does.. Will he get his livelihood back? No, odds are he's never going to be able to move past this. I think it could have been handled less absolutely. I've seen some stupid shit come out of drunken people's mouths. Stuff that they were completely mortified by.

Of course I've seen folks who did this sort of stuff sober and wonder why the don't get ahead.

Offline Atarn

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2015, 01:47:47 PM »
I don't think it's a joke or hobby. It was tasteless and foolish. Do I think he should lose his entire livelihood for it? No. I see zero chance for him changing now, and if he honestly does.. Will he get his livelihood back? No, odds are he's never going to be able to move past this. I think it could have been handled less absolutely. I've seen some stupid shit come out of drunken people's mouths. Stuff that they were completely mortified by.

Of course I've seen folks who did this sort of stuff sober and wonder why the don't get ahead.
Why? The bloody fool yells slurs against a woman on Cthulhudamned TV. Removing his livelihood seems fitting. The little prick made me grit my teeth when I listened to him, and blaming it on the booze is stupid; this guy is most assuredly like this when sober too, so why would any company/co-worker have to bear with him.

I do hope his mom is laughing though, like he said.

Offline Cycle

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2015, 02:04:54 PM »
Ok, so what does that extend to and where does it end? And who is going to be the judge of what a good person/worker is?

The first is not a relevant question.  If there are other things that should not serve as a basis for an employer to terminate an employee, that doesn't change the fact that what this asshole did is sufficient basis to terminate him.  If and when other situations come up, then those situations can be assessed based on their specific set of facts.

As for the second, the answer in terms of keeping your job is:  your employer, within the scope of whatever employment laws are in place in your region.

Really, is it that hard to learn how not to be an asshole?  All it takes is using your brain a bit and occasionally putting yourself in someone else's shoes.  If someone can't be bothered to try not to be an asshole, then yeah, I don't really have any sympathy for the ills that befall them.  After all, they could have avoided all those horrible things if they tried.


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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2015, 06:57:28 PM »
Women drivers get those kinds of comments or calls of the 'C' word. My response is to ask:

"Are you talking about your mother, sister, wife or daughter?'

Offline Corsair

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #36 on: May 15, 2015, 04:44:36 AM »
The first is not a relevant question.  If there are other things that should not serve as a basis for an employer to terminate an employee, that doesn't change the fact that what this asshole did is sufficient basis to terminate him.  If and when other situations come up, then those situations can be assessed based on their specific set of facts.

As for the second, the answer in terms of keeping your job is:  your employer, within the scope of whatever employment laws are in place in your region.

Really, is it that hard to learn how not to be an asshole?  All it takes is using your brain a bit and occasionally putting yourself in someone else's shoes.  If someone can't be bothered to try not to be an asshole, then yeah, I don't really have any sympathy for the ills that befall them.  After all, they could have avoided all those horrible things if they tried.

It's very relevant. This man has been tried by Social Media, the modern day equivalent of a lynch mob.

Even if you commit a more serious crime and it is captured on CCTV you still get a fair trial.

The link is quite interesting - http://www.cbc.ca/news/trending/hydro-one-employee-fired-after-fhritp-heckling-of-citynews-reporter-shauna-hunt-1.3070948

The quote at the end of the story from the newspaper -
Quote
Corrections

A previous version of this story said the Hydro One employee fired yelled FHRITP at the reporter Shauna Hunt. In fact, he was not seen on video yelling that particular insult.
May 12, 2015 9:53 PM ET

Also this man was not wearing anything to identify his company. The person who identified him to the media was a co worker who is remaining anonymous another quote:
Quote
A Hydro One official identified one of the men involved in Sunday's incident as employee Shawn Simoes. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to name him for privacy reasons.

So the whistle blower has also breached company protocol by the sounds of it. Which leads to other questions, does this co worker have an axe to grind or something to get from this man being fired? Surely the better way would have been to discuss it with a manager in the workplace?

So for  those of us talking about a slippery slope that is what we mean. There are processes to follow, this was all a bit of a mess.

Recently in Australia this happened with a woman who was concerned about a man who took a selfie in front of a Darth Vader cut out, she believed for whatever reason that he was a pedophile, instead of reporting it to the police she plastered his photo all over Facebook and accused him of being a pedophile.

The man wasn't a risk or a pedophile at all and has suffered due to this woman taking things into her own hands.

I mention this as again there is a process to follow even if you feel you have plenty of evidence against someone. 



Offline Cycle

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2015, 10:12:32 AM »
So for  those of us talking about a slippery slope that is what we mean. There are processes to follow, this was all a bit of a mess.

Those of you talking about a "slippery slope" are using a known Logical Fallacy.

Quote
Slippery Slope 'The Camel's Nose' - if a claim is made that one thing will follow another, evidence must be presented for such. "Marijuana is a gateway drug." It's important to separate this from actual trend analysis - Elliquiy is getting a few hundred new signups a month as of this writing, it is not illogical to assume that there will be another three thousand over the course of the next year. It would, however, be illogical to assume that there would be three thousand active members then - or even twice the activity we have now.

You may want to read this post by Veks .

A process was followed here.  This man's employer's policy.  And he was fired accordingly. 

Corsair, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2015, 12:21:28 PM »
I don't think it's a joke or hobby. It was tasteless and foolish. Do I think he should lose his entire livelihood for it? No. I see zero chance for him changing now, and if he honestly does.. Will he get his livelihood back? No, odds are he's never going to be able to move past this. I think it could have been handled less absolutely. I've seen some stupid shit come out of drunken people's mouths. Stuff that they were completely mortified by.

I, for one, am extremely uncomfortable with the "He was drunk, so it doesn't count" reasoning. I've gotten drunk and done some stupid shit. Know whose fault that was? Mine. Even if I was mortified by it later - and I have been - the fact that I impaired my judgement that badly and did something that harmed another person is on me. Any consequences of that are mine to bear, and correcting the problem if possible is my responsibility.

Offline Sho

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #39 on: May 15, 2015, 12:26:48 PM »
I, for one, am extremely uncomfortable with the "He was drunk, so it doesn't count" reasoning. I've gotten drunk and done some stupid shit. Know whose fault that was? Mine. Even if I was mortified by it later - and I have been - the fact that I impaired my judgement that badly and did something that harmed another person is on me. Any consequences of that are mine to bear, and correcting the problem if possible is my responsibility.

+1

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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #40 on: May 15, 2015, 02:30:59 PM »
I, for one, am extremely uncomfortable with the "He was drunk, so it doesn't count" reasoning. I've gotten drunk and done some stupid shit. Know whose fault that was? Mine. Even if I was mortified by it later - and I have been - the fact that I impaired my judgement that badly and did something that harmed another person is on me. Any consequences of that are mine to bear, and correcting the problem if possible is my responsibility.

Yup.  Get drunk and hit another person with your car?  It counts.  Get drunk and light your buddy on fire with a firework? It counts.  Get drunk and get uploaded to YouTube doing stupid shit?  It counts.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #41 on: May 15, 2015, 11:27:24 PM »
Agreed. Just saying instantly destroying the rest of. His life is a bit extreme.

I think he has a right to a livelihood, which odds are for him is now fast food or the convince store.

Just saying. I spent years trying to get out of a blacklisting by a major defense contractor. I still can't work for that contractor.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #42 on: May 16, 2015, 10:14:52 AM »
"Destroying the rest of his life" is just a bit hyperbolic, don't you think? He was fired. It happens. We deal with it. I've been fired before for far flimsier reasons than "was a rapey, threatening ass in front of millions of people, causing potential liability concerns in the process".

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #43 on: May 16, 2015, 11:08:26 AM »
We do need to keep the punishment in perspective.  He was fired.  Yes, that is a setback in his life I am sure and maybe he was really having a career there.  Still he was fired, not branded rapist on his forehead or anything of that nature.  He can get another job.  People do that all the time.  So I doubt his life was instantly ruined or destroyed or that his wife will be turning tricks at the bus stop while the kids are begging for food on the street.  His life is certainly different for the moment, but I wouldn't say destroyed.

Offline Corsair

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2015, 10:29:26 AM »
Those of you talking about a "slippery slope" are using a known Logical Fallacy.

You may want to read this post by Veks .

A process was followed here.  This man's employer's policy.  And he was fired accordingly. 

Corsair, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

To me that Link is all about trying to control the language of a discussion with a lot of double talk to suit your own means.

But I do agree we will have to agree to disagree.

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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2015, 11:43:21 AM »
If you wish to engage in debate in this forum, avoiding logical fallacies is going to give your arguments more impact.  Fallacious debate tends to get you ignored at best.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2015, 03:21:49 PM »
The slippery slope argument is how Socrates conducted most of his debates.  Essentially if you agree with this and then this, you now support eating babies.  This is pretty much where the argument against the man being fired was going.  A reprimand for public heckling turning into a fear of an employer going through privately held writings. 

Offline Corsair

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2015, 05:00:28 PM »
If you wish to engage in debate in this forum, avoiding logical fallacies is going to give your arguments more impact.  Fallacious debate tends to get you ignored at best.

Therein lies the problem. I'm not looking to "Debate" anyone. I like open and honest discussions, I am interested in hearing peoples thoughts, emotions, experiences, observations on topics. I find that interesting, to start laying down rules limits all of that and also is an attempt at controlling the language of the discussion to suit ones own end.

As Pumpkin Seeds also states, Socrates used the Slippery Slope argument in his debates.

My point is there are many different ways to have a discussion, especially on a topic such as the one in this thread, may angles to look at it from.

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Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2015, 05:25:32 PM »
The thing is, fallacious argument tactics are fundamentally dishonest as discussions go.

Offline consortium11

Re: The FHRITP heckler issue
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2015, 06:20:08 PM »
The slippery slope argument is how Socrates conducted most of his debates.  Essentially if you agree with this and then this, you now support eating babies.  This is pretty much where the argument against the man being fired was going.  A reprimand for public heckling turning into a fear of an employer going through privately held writings.

What Socrates tended to use wasn't really the slippery slope argument. The Socratic method is largely based around definitions, logical conclusions and taking a step by step approach to dismantling the other side's position. The slippery slope is saying "if this then this".

I can't recall any references to eating babies in the records we have of Socrates and the only example that comes up when typed into google is a hypothetical modern take but it does serve to illustrate the difference. The slippery slop argument would be suggesting that being pious and viewing pious as "good" would lead to babies being eaten. What Socrates does is different; he is demonstrating the difficulty of defining piety and the weakness of an argument that says "it's what the god's say so" (especially in the case of the Greek gods who are not presented as being inherently good and have differing opinions).

I do think there are some issues with dismissing so called "slippery slope" arguments out of hand; mainly that a true slippery slope fallacy is "if this then this" not "if this then possibly this". While there is something illogical about suggesting that an action or event will guarantee further (generally negative) actions or events, there is nothing inherently illogical about suggesting that an event or action may lead further (generally negative) actions or events; at that point it becomes an evidential discussion.