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Author Topic: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?  (Read 5046 times)

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Online Oniya

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2008, 09:08:09 PM »
I've spent much of this season listening to (not watching) the various campaign ads.  Were it not for the fact that Obama has an ethnic sound to it, I would have very few clues to his race.  Of the ads I have heard, the overwhelming majority of the 'My opponent is EEEEVIL!  EEEEVIL, I tell you! (So vote for me.)' ads have come from the Republican side.

I have a personal dislike for ad hominem tactics.  In my experience, it usually means that you have nothing better to offer than an attack on the other guy.  If it was broken down as 'Candidate A' vs. 'Candidate B', the Republicans have done very little to attract my vote.

Offline The Overlord

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2008, 02:16:58 AM »
An excllent summary of Fareed Zakaria:

The Case for Barack Obama

Obama is pushing to change the parameters of the country's comfort zone. That's leadership.

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/articles.html

Damn good article. I think this guy has the situation spot on for the most part.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2008, 07:03:46 AM »
I've spent much of this season listening to (not watching) the various campaign ads.  Were it not for the fact that Obama has an ethnic sound to it, I would have very few clues to his race.  Of the ads I have heard, the overwhelming majority of the 'My opponent is EEEEVIL!  EEEEVIL, I tell you! (So vote for me.)' ads have come from the Republican side.

I have a personal dislike for ad hominem tactics.  In my experience, it usually means that you have nothing better to offer than an attack on the other guy.  If it was broken down as 'Candidate A' vs. 'Candidate B', the Republicans have done very little to attract my vote.

Also, though, I think it's sad how many people make no effort whatsoever to look into the platform of the candidate, instead relying on their 30-second ads to tell them all they need to know.  I'm not saying you do this, Oniya, it's just that your mention of TV ads brought this to mind. 

That makes it even more pathetic when they waste those opportunities attacking the other person instead of sharing their ideas.  I'm grateful for information sources that make an effort not be biased, especially when they source every fact they cite and don't use 'spin' language.  The facts are out there, it just takes some effort to find them.

Online Oniya

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2008, 08:28:32 AM »
Also, though, I think it's sad how many people make no effort whatsoever to look into the platform of the candidate, instead relying on their 30-second ads to tell them all they need to know.  I'm not saying you do this, Oniya, it's just that your mention of TV ads brought this to mind. 

That makes it even more pathetic when they waste those opportunities attacking the other person instead of sharing their ideas.  I'm grateful for information sources that make an effort not be biased, especially when they source every fact they cite and don't use 'spin' language.  The facts are out there, it just takes some effort to find them.

Very true, and I didn't take it that way.  Still, the way that they choose to advertise their positions (or not) tells me a lot about their preferred method of interaction.  Resorting to name-calling doesn't give me a lot of hope for McCain's foreign policy.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2008, 08:34:01 AM »
I completely agree.

Offline ryokothedemoness137

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2008, 08:06:59 PM »
If Obama were white, Hillary Clinton would have been the Democratic nominee.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2008, 09:18:02 PM »
I'm not sure that a woman running wouldn't run into the same problem as a non-caucasian running, because the same type of person who would base their vote on the color of someone's skin would likely handle gender similarly :)  Who knows. 

Online Oniya

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2008, 09:47:33 PM »
There were people who voted against Mondale because of Ferraro.  Of course, those same people are probably flipping a coin this year.

Offline Trieste

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2008, 09:55:03 PM »
If Obama were white, Hillary Clinton would have been the Democratic nominee.

Mmm... I don't think so. I think Hillary went all crazyleftist and scared away a lot of her constituency. I blame her solidly for those people who went from being Clinton supporters to now thinking it's a good idea tovote for Palin because she's 'the more moderate but still feminist choice'. And yes, I have heard someone describe her that way. Hillary Clinton has a whole lot to answer for for her antics for those of us who feel she blew it with her reprehensible campaign. And she has only herself to blame. She did not lose because of race; she lost because she was a bitch.

And if McCain loses - and it's looking like he might - that will be the main reason why. We have seen a lot of people swinging toward Obama in the past few months, and it's really difficult to chalk those numbers up to race. The way Colin Powell put it elsewhere, "If I were going to vote for him because he was black, I would have come out and told people that six months ago." The numbers he's getting now are not because of race, but because people are believing his campaign. The fact that he has no experience doesn't matter to people as much as the fact that McCain can't stop talking about Joe the friggen Plumber.

Offline ryokothedemoness137

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2008, 04:08:22 PM »
The reason I said Hillary would have been the nominee is not because I think her primary loss was caused by Obama's race (or hers) or her gender, but because a white politician with Obama's level of experience wouldn't have even been given a second look in the primaries.  A white with Obama's views, even with Obama's eloquence, and that little experience would have been stuck in Dennis Kucinich territory as far as the percentage of the vote he could attract in the primaries.

Offline PhantomPistoleer

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2008, 04:42:35 PM »
I think that Obama is what this country needs.

It's like he read Plato's Republic and decided to embody the leadership in there.

And LOL about McCain having more character than Obama.

Offline ryokothedemoness137

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2008, 06:58:09 PM »
A Platonic Guardian?   ::)

If that's what Obama means to be, then the right-wing kooks are right!  Who will guard the Guardians?

Online Inerrant Lust

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2008, 01:38:48 PM »
The reason I said Hillary would have been the nominee is not because I think her primary loss was caused by Obama's race (or hers) or her gender, but because a white politician with Obama's level of experience wouldn't have even been given a second look in the primaries.  A white with Obama's views, even with Obama's eloquence, and that little experience would have been stuck in Dennis Kucinich territory as far as the percentage of the vote he could attract in the primaries.

Kennedy ran on less and got elected. Hey, he was morally abominable to his wife, too. :P

Offline Apple of Eris

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2008, 02:33:09 PM »
apparently, to those who answered the exit polls and says yes, race did matter in this election, a slight majority of those voted for Obama. *shrug*

Either way, in my opinion, the better candidtae won. I'm glad that people, and not just the young voters, but elderly voters, well educated voters, even people who never voted before turned out and voted; and that to the majority of voters, the candidates race wasn't a factor at all. That makes me have some hope for our country. :)

Offline Paradox

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2008, 02:52:59 PM »
apparently, to those who answered the exit polls and says yes, race did matter in this election, a slight majority of those voted for Obama. *shrug*


Well if you think about it, "does race matter?" is an awfully broad question. Answering yes could mean that the candidate's race will prevent you from voting for him-- or it could mean that his race will be the deciding factor that makes you vote for him. The people who voted for Obama because he was black would answer yes, in addition to the people you would expect (the ones for whom race will keep them from voting for him).

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2008, 03:49:48 PM »
The only thing that's got me bugged about the race issue. Is not, "Who voted against Obama just because he was black." it the, "Who voted for Obama just because he was black." I would have the same qualms about it if McCain was elected as well. :S It strikes me as a little off-putting.

Online Oniya

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #41 on: November 05, 2008, 03:55:54 PM »
Kennedy ran on less and got elected. Hey, he was morally abominable to his wife, too. :P

A lot about this campaign seemed to echo the Kennedy/Nixon race.  There was the youth and 'inexperience' issue, the fact that Obama seemed a lot more comfortable around the camera, and the issue about the candidate possibly being seen as a 'minority' (in Kennedy's case, a Roman Catholic).

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #42 on: November 05, 2008, 04:13:22 PM »
A lot about this campaign seemed to echo the Kennedy/Nixon race.  There was the youth and 'inexperience' issue, the fact that Obama seemed a lot more comfortable around the camera, and the issue about the candidate possibly being seen as a 'minority' (in Kennedy's case, a Roman Catholic).
Kennedy also threw us into the Vietnam war. So maybe he wasn't the best choice for president. :P

Offline Humble Scribe

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #43 on: November 05, 2008, 04:16:43 PM »
I'm also very glad the rest of the world does not have the ability to vote in a US election.

If only the US paid the rest of the world the same compliment.

He can only be an improvement on the incumbent (McCain probably would have been too, for that matter), and having an articulate centrist in the White House looks good from over here. It's also hard not to be moved by the historic and symbolic nature of his achievement.

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #44 on: November 05, 2008, 04:21:06 PM »
If only the US paid the rest of the world the same compliment.

He can only be an improvement on the incumbent (McCain probably would have been too, for that matter), and having an articulate centrist in the White House looks good from over here. It's also hard not to be moved by the historic and symbolic nature of his achievement.
That comes from World War II, we do technically have the right to police the rest of the world. More or less. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying it's there. :|

Offline Kazae

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2008, 07:15:51 PM »
Just something I want to throw out there.

I support Obama based on his stance on Alternative Energy (and the fact that he can SAY cellulosic ethanol - my gods, a man who can actually SPEAK and not sound as if he was working the remedial English courses), his take on personal responsibility (yes, we want to help you - we want you to at least make the effort yourself, as well), and his vantage point of where WE have not done our job, ourselves (personal freaking responsibility!  Telling your kids to turn off the game console!  NOT blaming it on the gaming industry itself!  RAISING your kids!), made me respect the man immensely.  His ability to accept critique leveled against him, and answer questions, as well the very blatant humility involved in how he carries himself, are what swayed me.

I voted in 2000.  I voted in 2004.  And I sure as hell voted this year.

My vote in 2000 was for Gore - his education, knowledge about his particular obsessions, and zeal for his beliefs moved me.  Having lived in Texas when Bush was Governor, I already loathed the man.  Kerry, I'll admit, was a blatant desire to be rid of Bush. 

But this year, I was strongly voting FOR a candidate, and not 'against' one.

A footnote of importance I have to make - I do not like Hillary Clinton, not because of her gender, but because of her views and her stance and the fact that I in many ways see her as a sizable portion of the downfall of Bill Clinton.  Her view of the gaming industry appalls me, and contributed to my growing disgust with Lieberman following 2004.  Her exceedingly unctuous personal manner put me ill at ease, and left me extremely cold.  Her supporters put me off by making things about gender, instead of the issues that I care about; I spent a good amount of time arguing with my fellow Obama supporters because they kept trying to make the issue about race, instead of, well, the issues. 

I'd gladly vote a woman for President who supported what I support; however, Hillary is not that woman.  Neither, for that matter, was Cynthia McKinney, who disgusts me to no end, and don't even get me started on Condileeza Rice (yes, I know she didn't run, but had she, I would sure as hell not have voted for her).

Offline Moondazed

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #46 on: November 06, 2008, 07:30:54 PM »
*has a delightfully erotic twinge at the thought of the word nuclear, properly pronounced, even though I'm against nuclear energy*

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Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #47 on: November 06, 2008, 08:51:37 PM »
*has a delightfully erotic twinge at the thought of the word nuclear, properly pronounced, even though I'm against nuclear energy*

Think of it in terms of the 'nuclear family'.  Yes, having a village is nice, but there's no substitute for that close kernel of support.  ;)

Offline Humble Scribe

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2008, 11:23:56 AM »
That comes from World War II, we do technically have the right to police the rest of the world. More or less. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying it's there. :|

I must have missed that piece of legislation...  ???

Offline Chris Brady

Re: A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2008, 12:08:04 PM »
What do you think the UN is?  NATO?  The U.S. CREATED the UN, with the support of the major 'Allies' of the era, and they spearheaded the effort to prevent another 'World War'.  So technically, YES, the U.S. does.

And on an international level, most countries are HAPPY for it.

Otherwise, they'd have to blame themselves or each other for every invasion attempt to get some sort of resource.  Instead, they can scapegoat the U.S. instead.

They go in to Iraq?  It's their fault and all they want is the oil.

They DON'T go?  Then the U.S. are bastards because they're letting people suffer.

As for Obama, personally, I think no matter who won this election, they're screwed.  This was a bad year for it.  And worse, Obama seems like a nice guy.  Nice guys NEVER do well in politics, because Oil and Big Business own the country, and if you go against them, then things start going wrong.