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Author Topic: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016  (Read 1824 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2015, 07:50:21 PM »
I've never heard of Bernie Sanders till now, but he's definitely someone I will watch. The GOP sure as heck isn't deserving my vote until they get their heads out of their asses and move a bit more centrist. Clinton is far too much of a career politician for me to trust her with the Oval Office, but she'd still be preferable to whoever the Republicans put forward.

Is nationalization of industry assets actually part of Sander's platform? Taking a brief look online, that sort of thing seems to be a hallmark of authoritarian, strong-arm governments - only transportation, finance, and occasionally telecommunications appear to be consistently national industries in 1st-world democracies, even in Europe.

Offline consortium11

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2015, 09:25:24 PM »
Thing is, considering the impact social media has on things, Bernie's getting attention.  Anyone who has been griping about the state of the middle class, the impact of 'corporate politics', the ridiculous DADT attitude that has been slapped on climate change, or a score of other issues has probably seen a dozen or more of Bernie's quotes over any given week.  Grass roots at its finest.

What needs to be done is to convince people that they need to get out there and vote when the time comes.  Primaries if possible.

The impact of social media has to be put into perspective; if you went by it then you'd have thought Ron Paul was odds on not only to win the Republican primary last time but then sweep into the Oval office. A few people tend to make a lot of noise on social media... and even for those who don't just ignore it frequently it acts to turn other people off.

Offline KalebHyde

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2015, 11:35:39 PM »
Clinton and Bush are two sides of the same corrupt coin, both career politicians whose idea of compromising is taking money from all sides while telling lies to their side of the aisle.  The republican party has been settling for compromise candidates for the better part of the last 30 years and now the democrats are doing the same.  Republicans were given McCain because it was 'his turn', same with Romney.  Now the democratic establishment wants Hilary Clinton for what reason exactly?  Her marriage and treatment of women her husband victimized is hardly a model for feminism.  How did Bill Clinton become the only instance where it remains fine to blame the victim?

Hilary's change of heart on gay marriage is more than a little convenient if one looks into her stout defense of traditional marriage only a few years ago, not to mention her apparent willingness to accept millions through her charity from countries murdering women and homosexuals on a consistent basis.

I could go on, but my point is not to simply bash Clinton.  Jeb Bush is little better and neither is any of the establishment GOP.  Everybody hates Congress, yet the incumbents nearly always get re-elected because the other guy 'doesn't stand a chance'.  It amazes me how anyone who tries to change the status quo is shunned with labels.  Too radical, too extremist yet no one likes the way thing are.  I'd propose both sides toss aside Bush, Clinton, and all the other relics of the past.  I would love to see a Sanders-Cruz debate, or a Warren-Rand Paul one.  Put people out there who actually stand for something rather than once again settling for politicians who are going to tell you what you want to hear then go back to stabbing the country in the back for their own special interests.  America deserves to make a real choice this election and hear truly held principles, not the same old double talk.

Offline Oniya

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2015, 12:00:18 AM »
The impact of social media has to be put into perspective; if you went by it then you'd have thought Ron Paul was odds on not only to win the Republican primary last time but then sweep into the Oval office. A few people tend to make a lot of noise on social media... and even for those who don't just ignore it frequently it acts to turn other people off.

What needs to be done is to convince people that they need to get out there and vote when the time comes.  Primaries if possible.

Offline GypsyRose

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2015, 12:23:43 PM »
Put people out there who actually stand for something rather than once again settling for politicians who are going to tell you what you want to hear then go back to stabbing the country in the back for their own special interests.  America deserves to make a real choice this election and hear truly held principles, not the same old double talk.

I'd love to hear something like this become the battle cry of the next election.  I'm tired of trying to figure out which candidate is the 'lesser of half a dozen evils' -- especially when we're talking a differential the breadth of a hair.

Online HannibalBarca

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #30 on: April 30, 2015, 10:30:02 PM »
Bernie is straight-talking--no, really, he actually tells the truth.  That in itself is a breath of fresh air in politics.  The problem is, there are too many people who put party above country here in the US...he could--and does--speak truth to power, but too many people are in their bubbles to be able to recognize an honest man.  He also refuses to accept corporate and big-donor money, going straight small donor and grassroots.

Telling the truth and eschewing big business...he's basically blown the top off Running for President 101.  Even if people don't agree with his politics, they have to think that maybe an honest, uncorrupted leader would be a nice change for once.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #31 on: April 30, 2015, 10:42:50 PM »
Two things that worry me about both democratic candidates..

They, either of them, will be the oldest president to start in office. Well if Hillary makes it..she'll be 3rd oldest. Sanders will be oldest (Reagan is currently the oldest)


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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2015, 11:18:10 PM »
Their age troubles me as well, but not too much.  I voted for McCain over Dubya in 2000, despite his age, because he was the vastly superior candidate.  Sanders is superior to Clinton, and much superior to any of the current Republican candidates.  Age often equals ability and experience, though not always--Teddy Roosevelt is a prime example.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2015, 11:53:09 AM »
I just see it being used as a club by some. Rubio for example, his team might highlight that the 'codger' team is all the Dems can offer. A lot of 'old establishment' being tossed around.

Though anyone using that on Sanders is delusional.

Offline LostInTheMistTopic starter

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2015, 01:55:53 PM »
I don't think the Republicans will want to engage Sanders. In fact, if I were working for them, I'd tell them to go ahead and pretend he doesn't exist. I doubt the Republicans have a candidate who could beat him were he somehow to win the nomination. (Like, if Clinton catches fire and burns down and nobody else steps up.) There's no upside to talking about him. You elevate him on the national stage, give him name recognition, and people start to notice him and learn who he is (one of the last honest politicians), and suddenly you have an image problem of your own.

I'm just glad that SOMEBODY will be keeping Clinton "honest", or at least force her to the left a little.

Offline Warlock

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #35 on: May 01, 2015, 03:07:34 PM »
On the age thing, not all people keep their keen minds as they become older unfortunately. Though Sanders is still only 74 years young, should be several years before his Best Before date expires.

If Bernie can generate enough public visibility, even if not support, it should hopefully force both the media networks and other candidates to engage with him on some level and adapt to his talking points and policy proposals. Probably won't see anything from Republicans till after the primary, them being busy, in my opinion, trying to outcompete each other in insanity while trying to appeal to the loonier parts of the right. Still he'll probably keep Hillary on her toes and we'll hopefully see something interesting emerging from there.

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2015, 07:06:38 PM »
I really would like to have viable candidates on both sides, if we're only going to have two parties with any chance of electing someone.  The Republicans have moved so far to the right that they'd hate on their own from the last several decades: Eisenhower warning of the military-industrial complex, Nixon trying to make a national healthcare system, Reagan pushing for immigration reform.  Somehow all of these things were legitimate desires of conservatives years ago, but not so much now.  How can become even more conservative than the older version of themselves?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 11:02:55 PM by HannibalBarca »

Offline LostInTheMistTopic starter

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #37 on: May 01, 2015, 07:14:46 PM »
I really would like to have viable candidates on both sides, if we're only going to have two parties with any chance of electing someone.  The Republicans have moved so far to the left that they'd hate on their own from the last several decades: Eisenhower warning of the military-industrial complex, Nixon trying to make a national healthcare system, Reagan pushing for immigration reform.  Somehow all of these things were legitimate desires of conservatives years ago, but not so much now.  How can become even more conservative than the older version of themselves?

When you say they've moved to the left, don't you mean they've moved to the right? At least in the U.S. left is progressive, right is conservative.

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2015, 11:03:13 PM »
Er.  Thanks for catching that ;)

Offline LostInTheMistTopic starter

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2015, 11:10:03 PM »
Er.  Thanks for catching that ;)

Just making sure you weren't one of the particularly crazy ones. I've heard some people (recently) say that Republicans have become too liberal. That they haven't picked conservative enough candidates, and that's why they keep losing. Frankly, as long as they keep picking people too conservative to win a general election as their presidential candidates, I'm fine.

But the dialogue is "we're not conservative ENOUGH!" rather than, "wow, maybe we really are out of touch with the real world and its values?"

There are people out there who think McCain and Romney were "centrist" candidates. But really, go much farther right and you're looking at fascism. (Which is the rightest of the right hand where socialism is the leftest of the left hand.)

Bernie Sanders is officially running. And as a Democrat. I wonder if there's any way I can help him? (I'm stuck over here in Oregon where our Primary isn't until June 2016. And it's not like I can just drop everything [my job, my family, my apartment] and join the campaign in Iowa/New Hampshire/South Carolina.)

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2015, 02:21:34 AM »
I remember messaging a dominant guy friend of mine on the day of the 2008 elections - he was firmly for Obama, too - with a cheeky quotation from Rambo: "Sir, do we get to win this time?"  ;) It feels like very long ago now... 

Offline KalebHyde

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2015, 09:11:49 AM »
Just making sure you weren't one of the particularly crazy ones. I've heard some people (recently) say that Republicans have become too liberal. That they haven't picked conservative enough candidates, and that's why they keep losing. Frankly, as long as they keep picking people too conservative to win a general election as their presidential candidates, I'm fine.

But the dialogue is "we're not conservative ENOUGH!" rather than, "wow, maybe we really are out of touch with the real world and its values?"

There are people out there who think McCain and Romney were "centrist" candidates. But really, go much farther right and you're looking at fascism. (Which is the rightest of the right hand where socialism is the leftest of the left hand.)

Bernie Sanders is officially running. And as a Democrat. I wonder if there's any way I can help him? (I'm stuck over here in Oregon where our Primary isn't until June 2016. And it's not like I can just drop everything [my job, my family, my apartment] and join the campaign in Iowa/New Hampshire/South Carolina.)

To consider McCain or Romney too conservative I believe was far more a media construct than anything else.  They were both considerate moderate until they ran for office and became demonized.  There is always room to disagree as long as those behind the point of view are being honest.

I believe communism would be the furthest left on the scale but all points seem to assume massive government control.  Fascism cannot co-exist with decentralized government.  I think that was part of the problem to start.  Humans aren't meant to turn over there sovereignty to the state no matter the structure.  I don't have much but I've never really considered that someone else's fault.  If people accept an ever expanding government, we move dangerously close to, in the best case, returning to monarchies and the feudal system.  A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

That said, I am open to listening to Sanders or Warren because I believe they honestly believe what they say is best for the US as that is what a President should do. I would hope everyone would remain open and listen for themselves, not just accept the party line.  I personally find myself drifting more and more libertarian in social issues.  Live and let live basically, keep government out of as much of our lives as possible.  Federal government does very little aside from national defense correctly and should never be handed more control.

I'm not capable of swaying anyone else's opinion, I just wish for once all these ideals could be placed open for debate.  Let the world actually see Warren debate Cruz rather than both sides simply calling names without either ever giving a fair hearing.  I would love a series of talks placing Sander's socialism side by side with Rand Paul's libertarianism so that all could compare.  Neither side should have anything to fear and some might gain a better perspective, at the very least being able to give the opposing view a fair chance.

Offline ThePrince

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2015, 03:49:51 PM »
Bernie Sanders is officially running. And as a Democrat. I wonder if there's any way I can help him? (I'm stuck over here in Oregon where our Primary isn't until June 2016. And it's not like I can just drop everything [my job, my family, my apartment] and join the campaign in Iowa/New Hampshire/South Carolina.)

The best thing you can do is donate to his campaign, the way primaries work now is that you stay in the race until the money runs out. (Which is why there were so many un-electable republican candidates in the 2012 and will be in this primary.) So the more money Sanders have the longer he can stay in and have more impact.


Online Mithlomwen

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #43 on: May 04, 2015, 01:55:15 PM »
The best thing you can do is donate to his campaign, the way primaries work now is that you stay in the race until the money runs out. (Which is why there were so many un-electable republican candidates in the 2012 and will be in this primary.) So the more money Sanders have the longer he can stay in and have more impact.

I was watching a video of him where he's talking about why he's the best person for the presidency.  He said that the day he announced he was running, his campaign raised 1.4 million dollars.  But what is really encouraging is that the money was donated by regular American's and the average donation was 43 dollars.  So that's quite a number of people willing to support him.

Also....he mentioned that if people want to donate or help in other ways his webpage is: berniesanders.com

Offline Ephiral

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2015, 08:43:10 PM »
As a longtime fan of Bernie Sanders and a filthy socialist by Canadian standards, it makes me squee to hear that he's running.

I place his odds of winning at roughly 0%. The battle to be considered a viable alternative is a long one, and he doesn't have that much time left.

Offline Ironwolf85

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2015, 06:49:14 AM »
true but if he gets enough support it will make his case all the more powerful

Offline Ephiral

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2015, 03:48:35 PM »
Yes, but that doesn't matter unless there's someone else willing to carry the torch. I come from a five-party system that's way left of modern America, and it still took my party 50 years to get as far as Opposition status.

I want to see him inspire a next generation, and I think he's a great figure to rally around, but we won't see anyone like him in the Oval Office this generation.

EDIT: It would be a bit remiss of me not to touch on this:

Is nationalization of industry assets actually part of Sander's platform? Taking a brief look online, that sort of thing seems to be a hallmark of authoritarian, strong-arm governments - only transportation, finance, and occasionally telecommunications appear to be consistently national industries in 1st-world democracies, even in Europe.
I cannot support the underlined parts. Government control of -every- major industry as you mention, is not a good thing.  And I firmly believe that if you have a government more or less controlling every aspect of industry, you cannot have it not be in the private lives of the citizens either. You cannot have one and not the other.

I live in a modern first-world democracy. We've got state-owned enterprises in health care, energy, certain aspects of finance (notably mortgage, housing, and venture capital), transportation, the arts, gas and oil, media, steel, alcohol, gambling, and (until very recently, with a notable decline in customer satisfaction since) telecomms. Would you call Canada (at least, before Harper) an "authoritarian, strong-arm government" that invades its citizens' private lives as a matter of course?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 04:08:50 PM by Ephiral »

Offline Oniya

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2015, 03:54:35 PM »
Bernie's got two things going for him for the primaries.  The biggest is that he's got a message that the working class is rallying behind.  Even if they think it's campaign-talk or what he really believes (I'm inclined to the latter, myself).  The second, which is actually a little discouraging, is that I don't think that the majority of the working class is quite ready for there to be a 'First Husband' instead of a 'First Lady'. 

So, I do think he's more of a contender than much of the media is painting him to be.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2015, 04:10:52 PM »
Yes, but that doesn't matter unless there's someone else willing to carry the torch. I come from a five-party system that's way left of modern America, and it still took my party 50 years to get as far as Opposition status.

I want to see him inspire a next generation, and I think he's a great figure to rally around, but we won't see anyone like him in the Oval Office this generation.

EDIT: It would be a bit remiss of me not to touch on this:

Is nationalization of industry assets actually part of Sander's platform? Taking a brief look online, that sort of thing seems to be a hallmark of authoritarian, strong-arm governments - only transportation, finance, and occasionally telecommunications appear to be consistently national industries in 1st-world democracies, even in Europe.
I cannot support the underlined parts. Government control of -every- major industry as you mention, is not a good thing.  And I firmly believe that if you have a government more or less controlling every aspect of industry, you cannot have it not be in the private lives of the citizens either. You cannot have one and not the other.

I live in a modern first-world democracy. We've got state-owned enterprises in health care, energy, certain aspects of finance (notably mortgage, housing, and venture capital), transportation, the arts, gas and oil, media, steel, alcohol, gambling, and (until very recently, with a notable decline in customer satisfaction since) telecomms. Would you call Canada (at least, before Harper) an "authoritarian, strong-arm government" that invades its citizens' private lives as a matter of course?


EDIT THE SECOND:
Bernie's got two things going for him for the primaries.  The biggest is that he's got a message that the working class is rallying behind.  Even if they think it's campaign-talk or what he really believes (I'm inclined to the latter, myself).  The second, which is actually a little discouraging, is that I don't think that the majority of the working class is quite ready for there to be a 'First Husband' instead of a 'First Lady'. 

So, I do think he's more of a contender than much of the media is painting him to be.
I absolutely think he believes in what he's saying, because frankly his message hasn't changed much in roughly the last decade.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: So... I Have Decided On My Vote For President In 2016
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2015, 05:00:10 PM »
How many of those industries you listed are exclusively state-controlled? I may have been imprecise in my wording, but I know that, say, media (newspapers and television) can be owned/run by private entities in Canada; the state has a presence in the market, and regulations limit/require certain types of content, but media has not been nationalized in the sense of an entire industry being controlled and overseen by government.