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Author Topic: Seeking players and a GM for an unusual D&D 3.5 game... [Update: GM found!]  (Read 4079 times)

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Offline PaleEnchantress

If you scroll up ive talked about it all already. Been posting in the thread pretty much since the beginning. Kunoichi, Glyphstone, Zaer and I are always plotting trouble together. I haven't worked out the details, but most everyone already knows im going for body horor and. . .

Im either working on a "Mother of Monsters" type. She or he (yes he, not quite as mpreg as it sounds) would most likly have the unique power that let her spontaneously generate followers, often inside others. "Chest Burster" style.

OR im working on a very hellraiser esque fleshcrafter. Unique property would almost certainly mimic the despoiler of flesh from the Book of Vile Darkness. Probably has some graft flesh and other item creation abilities too.

Right now the most likely base race for either is Nymph, but replacing druid casting with a different primary caster for their baseline spells. Druidic magic isnt my favorite nor do i think it fits either very well.

I must ask is Phaerimm obscenity allowed?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 06:17:13 AM by PaleEnchantress »

Online Zaer Darkwail

I have thought bit on my base creature, and so I ask is deep dragon (pg114 Drow of the Underdark) allowed? In my calculations a young dragon is 14 HD (max before it hits juvenile) and is CR 7 (no worries, even if age says 'young' the dragons unlikely are 'children' in such age. Past wyrmling stage the dragons act like adults I think). So with demon lord its CR 9 and so have room to add then +7 CR worth of templates then correct? Assuming the dragon as base creature is okay (idea is to get outsider subtype via template).

Also another idea is to use ogre magi as a base....it has some sweet abilities.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 07:35:22 AM by Zaer Darkwail »

Offline Lockepick

Is there still room for more? I wasn't sure on the process that you would be selecting your players. I'd love to play if so.

EDIT: I'm finding that getting both the magic numbers of CR and HD to line up perfectly is proving a little difficult. I'm sort of feeling like the character creation rules were made AFTER Kunoichi designed their character!

Is there any option for like... just not taking the full 16 HD if we don't want to?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 10:42:20 AM by lockepick »

Offline PaleEnchantress

Is there still room for more? I wasn't sure on the process that you would be selecting your players. I'd love to play if so.

EDIT: I'm finding that getting both the magic numbers of CR and HD to line up perfectly is proving a little difficult. I'm sort of feeling like the character creation rules were made AFTER Kunoichi designed their character!

Is there any option for like... just not taking the full 16 HD if we don't want to?

What are you trying to do what makes it difficult? I've made a bunch of theoretical builds, havnt had an issue at all with it.

Offline Lockepick

@PaleEnchantress: I think that comment came off a lot more patronizing than you meant it to.

Maybe I'm doing this backwards, but I'm selecting an idea/theme/prestige class first, and building out from there. Race was sort of the last thing I was selecting -- and ended up searching "Alright, so I need a race that has X CR and also has X HD..." And most of the options didn't exactly fall in line with what I wanted.

Celestial Porpoise was one of the only fits to close the gap in one of my builds, for example...

Offline TheGlyphstone


Well, thematically, the Umbral Creature template from Savage Species would make just about anything fit.
Or take plain old Shadow for something that's just 3 HD. I'd rather not customize stuff *too* much since this is already so flexible, so as to keep things from getting too chaotic.


edit: Also, if you get accepted and do the Shadowcraft Mage thing, I better not hear the phrase "realer than reality" or I will leer at you so hard

I'll just take the base concept in a different direction then and use Sylph - they're remarkably powerful as a spellcasting base class creature, though not quite Phaerimm Hatchling-level cheese, and I can stack a bunch of templates like Unseelie Fey/Shadow Creature to make a  distinctly fiendish creature (they're outsiders already, so that is dealt with).

And you won't need to worry about the 'realer than reality' thing...it's weird, and it's also mechanically suboptimal since only someone who successfully disbelieves will see the 'extra-reality', and you want high save DCs otherwise. I'd be fine with a logical cap on 100% effective reality for higher-level spells.


I must ask is Phaerimm obscenity allowed?

*whack* No! Bad Pale! No TheoryOp cheese!
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 12:02:31 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

@PaleEnchantress: I think that comment came off a lot more patronizing than you meant it to.

Maybe I'm doing this backwards, but I'm selecting an idea/theme/prestige class first, and building out from there. Race was sort of the last thing I was selecting -- and ended up searching "Alright, so I need a race that has X CR and also has X HD..." And most of the options didn't exactly fall in line with what I wanted.

Celestial Porpoise was one of the only fits to close the gap in one of my builds, for example...

Could you list some of the ideas, themes, and/or prestige classes you're considering?  You are right that it's usually a good idea to start at race, after you've come up with a good general character concept, though.

Offline Lockepick

I didn't really list my build because I wasn't looking for specific help since everything is in the infancy, and I was more focused on the general rules of building a character, which would let me explore a couple of ideas before picking one. Are we allowed to simply not fill one side of the formula, as long as we don't go over on the other side (eg: CR 14, HD 14).

I'm also finding that ANY race that offers an odd number of HD makes the formula impossible, unless I'm misunderstanding? Unless we simply round up CRs so CR 13.5 w/ 16 HD is acceptable.

Right now my first thought is: playing with the idea of the Soul Eater prestige Class (BoVD) and the Vampire/Vampire Lord templates. The latter is +5 CR & 0 HD (combined) -- which is most likely where I'm finding my HD deficiency. Frankly, it's REALLY hard to not also take Monster of Legend when it's opened up to apply to other 'types' -- Perma Haste for +2 CR ALONE would be worth it, never mind all the other stuff you get... 

Right now my gist is:
Vampire Template = +2 CR, 0 HD
Vampire Lord = +3 CR, 0 HD
Monster of Legend = +2 CR, 0 HD
14 Class Levels = +7 CR, 14 HD
 -- Which leaves me at only 14/16 HD -- but a much stronger build than if I dropped Monster of Legend to fill the gaps, no matter what I did.

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

The best solution I've found for odd-numbered hit dice is the Beast of Xvim template.  +1 HD, +1 CR, and a few other useful abilities are also tossed in.

As for the Vampire Lord/Monster of Legend dilemma, giving up Monster of Legend is probably the only real option if you want to keep Vampire Lord.

That said, you can still get at-will Haste from the Demon Lord template, if you choose it for one of your spell-like abilities.  So you can effectively still get the same benefits without making use of the Monster of Legend template.

Also, if you'd like to really take advantage of having Haste always active, the Swiftblade prestige class might be worth looking into.

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

Ah, and since I missed this earlier...

I have thought bit on my base creature, and so I ask is deep dragon (pg114 Drow of the Underdark) allowed? In my calculations a young dragon is 14 HD (max before it hits juvenile) and is CR 7 (no worries, even if age says 'young' the dragons unlikely are 'children' in such age. Past wyrmling stage the dragons act like adults I think). So with demon lord its CR 9 and so have room to add then +7 CR worth of templates then correct? Assuming the dragon as base creature is okay (idea is to get outsider subtype via template).

Also another idea is to use ogre magi as a base....it has some sweet abilities.

You'll have to add on 2 extra class levels or bonus hit dice for +1 CR, so you'll have +6 CR worth of templates to play around with.

An Ogre Mage could also work as a character, but you wouldn't have any room for any templates, due to the fairly high CR that ogre magi already have.  It does have some very nice abilities, though.

Offline Lockepick

The best solution I've found for odd-numbered hit dice is the Beast of Xvim template.  +1 HD, +1 CR, and a few other useful abilities are also tossed in.

That's a really 'flavored' template that I'm not sure would fit every character that happened to pick a Race with an odd number of HD -- as well as being arugably less useful than simply being a .5 CR under the maximum.

That said, you can still get at-will Haste from the Demon Lord template, if you choose it for one of your spell-like abilities.  So you can effectively still get the same benefits without making use of the Monster of Legend template.

I misspoke -- it's not 'at will Haste' that is appealing for Monster of Legend -- it's constant Haste. With the MoL template as an option, it's pretty hard to consider anything else. The bang for your buck there is pretty monumental.

I think you've eluded to this, but I haven't heard you flat out say it, so just to confirm: every character must be exactly 14 CR and 16 HD -- correct?

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

That's a really 'flavored' template that I'm not sure would fit every character that happened to pick a Race with an odd number of HD -- as well as being arugably less useful than simply being a .5 CR under the maximum.

I think you've eluded to this, but I haven't heard you flat out say it, so just to confirm: every character must be exactly 14 CR and 16 HD -- correct?

That's correct, though with the point you brought up about the Beast of Xvim template, I'm starting to think a little flexibility might be in order when it comes to odd-numbered hit dice.  Perhaps adding on one racial HD with no change to CR would work?

Quote

I misspoke -- it's not 'at will Haste' that is appealing for Monster of Legend -- it's constant Haste. With the MoL template as an option, it's pretty hard to consider anything else. The bang for your buck there is pretty monumental.

Looking over the Monster of Legend template again, I don't think it actually gives you constant Haste.  In 3rd edition, one of the benefits Haste gave you was the ability to take an extra move or standard action each round, and the wording is pretty clear that that's the only benefit the template gives you.  Additionally, that part of Haste was changed to only give you an extra attack when making a full attack in D&D 3.5, and the Monster of Legend template was altered to match that change in the 3.5 update booklet for the MMII.

That said, the demonically fused elemental template actually would give you the full benefits of Haste as a constantly-active effect, if that's what you're looking for.  It's a +3 CR template, though, so you'd have to give up on Vampire Lord altogether.

Offline TheGlyphstone

That's correct, though with the point you brought up about the Beast of Xvim template, I'm starting to think a little flexibility might be in order when it comes to odd-numbered hit dice.  Perhaps adding on one racial HD with no change to CR would work?

Looking over the Monster of Legend template again, I don't think it actually gives you constant Haste.  In 3rd edition, one of the benefits Haste gave you was the ability to take an extra move or standard action each round, and the wording is pretty clear that that's the only benefit the template gives you.  Additionally, that part of Haste was changed to only give you an extra attack when making a full attack in D&D 3.5, and the Monster of Legend template was altered to match that change in the 3.5 update booklet for the MMII.

That said, the demonically fused elemental template actually would give you the full benefits of Haste as a constantly-active effect, if that's what you're looking for.  It's a +3 CR template, though, so you'd have to give up on Vampire Lord altogether.


...Wow, I actually really like that template, since I'm making a Sylph, which are outsiders from the Elemental Plane of Air. Though that brings to mind a question - when templates scale in abilities/CR based on the creature's Hit Dice, that uses the base HD only without class levels, right?

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

...Wow, I actually really like that template, since I'm making a Sylph, which are outsiders from the Elemental Plane of Air. Though that brings to mind a question - when templates scale in abilities/CR based on the creature's Hit Dice, that uses the base HD only without class levels, right?

My first instinct is to rule that all of your hit dice count as racial hit dice for those purposes, since that's what they effectively become when the Demon Lord template is applied.  Those templates scale in CR as the base creature goes up in hit dice, barring a few exceptions, so it's not like the extra granted abilities are coming to you completely free of charge.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Yeah, but they tend to scale terribly. It probably won't make a difference for me either way, but knowing explicitly which (since otherwise you could be, say, a Fiendish Choker (3HD), then decide to add some class levels and suddenly your Fiendish Creature template is now a +1 CR instead of +0, throwing off your math.

Offline Lockepick

That's correct, though with the point you brought up about the Beast of Xvim template, I'm starting to think a little flexibility might be in order when it comes to odd-numbered hit dice.  Perhaps adding on one racial HD with no change to CR would work?

Looking over the Monster of Legend template again, I don't think it actually gives you constant Haste.  In 3rd edition, one of the benefits Haste gave you was the ability to take an extra move or standard action each round, and the wording is pretty clear that that's the only benefit the template gives you.  Additionally, that part of Haste was changed to only give you an extra attack when making a full attack in D&D 3.5, and the Monster of Legend template was altered to match that change in the 3.5 update booklet for the MMII.

That said, the demonically fused elemental template actually would give you the full benefits of Haste as a constantly-active effect, if that's what you're looking for.  It's a +3 CR template, though, so you'd have to give up on Vampire Lord altogether.

1) If you do allow adding 1 extra HD without effecting CR (for the sole purpose of evening out an odd number of HD) -- that would give me a working build right there, assuming #3...
2) I'm not sure I read the same conclusion from you in the update booklet, but I'm also not sure I'm reading it properly. I've been using http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/monsterlegend.shtml to reference it -- is that incorrect?

3) Just to clarify -- I know you're allowing Templates that people usually can't take (like Evil Half-Celestial) -- would the idea of a Vampire Soul Eater even work? It was pointed out that 'Soul Eater' requires you to be a living humanoid/monstrous humanoid.

Offline TheGlyphstone

This is a relevant question for me as well, since my base creature (Sylph) is 3HD, giving me +13 HD to play with.


EDIT: Also, is it fair to assume that any spellcasting we have is capped at =HD, even if it would be higher? A Sylph's base casting is their Hit Dice +4, so I'm casting as a level 7 sorcerer before PrCs - and at 13 HD to spare, I could theoretically be a 20th level sorcerer, which I do not believe is intended for the game's starting power level. Or is being an effective level 19 sorcerer (lost a CL to Nightmare Spinner) okay for a nascent demon lord?


EDIT 2: How much erotic/sexual content are you expecting the game to feature, and of what variety?


EDIT 3: Reiterating a previous question - since Demon Lord requires Dark Speech, is that being given to us for free or do we have to dedicate one of our regular feat slots to it?

EDIT 4: Is Dragon Magazine material permissible? There's a Trait I'd be interested in - Unnatural Aura, gives a -2 penalty on interaction checks with animals/vermin in exchange for a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks and save DCs for [Fear] magic.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 08:46:41 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

1) If you do allow adding 1 extra HD without effecting CR (for the sole purpose of evening out an odd number of HD) -- that would give me a working build right there, assuming #3...
2) I'm not sure I read the same conclusion from you in the update booklet, but I'm also not sure I'm reading it properly. I've been using http://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/monsterlegend.shtml to reference it -- is that incorrect?

3) Just to clarify -- I know you're allowing Templates that people usually can't take (like Evil Half-Celestial) -- would the idea of a Vampire Soul Eater even work? It was pointed out that 'Soul Eater' requires you to be a living humanoid/monstrous humanoid.

I've been using that link to reference the Monster of Legend template as well.  The specific wording is 'The creature is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra partial action each round, as if affected by a haste spell.', which doesn't say that it grants any of the other benefits of Haste, merely the extra partial action.  Then in the update booklet, it notes that the template needs to be updated to reflect changes to the Haste spell, but doesn't actually clarify anything about how the template needs to be changed.  The wording there is definitely vague and unclear, so I think it's probably ultimately going to be up to Mantis to resolve this particular issue. ^^;

Soul Eater actually only requires 'any living non-humanoid' to qualify, so you could make it work.  You just take all the Soul Eater levels before picking up the Vampire template, and then when you become a Demon Lord you become a living creature again and regain access to the Soul Eater's class features.

Offline Lockepick

I think I'm a little concerned about the order of operations in how things are calculated -- but I think I'll be happy with the end result either way.

I'll get a PM together to send to both GMs with my understanding on how to build the character to make sure I'm on the right page.

Offline PaleEnchantress

*whack* No! Bad Pale! No TheoryOp cheese!

Oh come on they aren't THAT bad. Especially if I'm not loading up on just extra sorcerer levels, I don't want to be tiny so ill start with juvenile. Even if my caster level goes above 20 the spell slots don't.

ANyway I have to ask since i have some fun build ideas with them. If not though I have other ideas. mostly using nymph. Have to get an answer before i post. Also still not sure about the flesh sculptor vs the broodmother.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 03:33:12 PM by PaleEnchantress »

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

I, too, am somewhat concerned about the possibility for abuse with a Phaerimm, though I will note that the Phaerimm Magic special quality that they have would be pretty fitting for a demon lord who was focused around arcane ability.  That and the Spellpool ability from the Mage of the Arcane Order prestige class, stuck onto a demon lord who uses a Spell Weaver as the base creature, and with a special attack stolen from a pre-existing Marilith demon lord that's about having eight arms instead of the usual six...

That would pretty much be the most versatile spellcaster ever, I think. :P

Online Zaer Darkwail

Ah, and since I missed this earlier...

You'll have to add on 2 extra class levels or bonus hit dice for +1 CR, so you'll have +6 CR worth of templates to play around with.

An Ogre Mage could also work as a character, but you wouldn't have any room for any templates, due to the fairly high CR that ogre magi already have.  It does have some very nice abilities, though.

Yeah, but after while I decided I lean more ogre mage anyways as I got cool concept for him. Also I am concerned also for the 'spell cap' if any as ur-priest you break it by default already. I write bit more later about my concept.

Offline Lockepick

Does anybody know what book I can look at for the distinctions/mechanics behind each of the three demon subtypes we have to pick from? Tanar'ri and Loumara and Obyrith?

Offline TheGlyphstone

Fiendish Codex I, I believe.

Offline PaleEnchantress

I forgot about Loumara type, nice.