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Author Topic: Seeking players and a GM for an unusual D&D 3.5 game... [Update: GM found!]  (Read 4076 times)

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Offline Lockepick

I feel a little bad saying this since everybody has been supportive of me and my character... but I kind of feel like 'Wish without Cost' is going to really overpower any other concept. The fact that you're focused on fear will probably be less stark than the fact that you have literally infinite money over time. Using a Fear spell could be fun, but you can also be like "I Wish he was inside a mountain somewhere else" you know? Just my two cents -- I'll be happy to play along regardless.

Online Zaer Darkwail

Yeah, as GM mentioned he did not want wish shenanigans at this point of the story. So even if able cast or do wishes yourself without cost, it's better that your unable do them at all or they cost XP despite contradictory belief.

Offline PaleEnchantress

Yeah, as GM mentioned he did not want wish shenanigans at this point of the story. So even if able cast or do wishes yourself without cost, it's better that your unable do them at all or they cost XP despite contradictory belief.

Well the GM also said he liked converting exp costs into GP costs. I proposed that the SLA thing would negate expensive component costs up to 5k in gp. Which is 1k in exp. - Lets Glyph have some extra fun with normally expensive spells but prevents constant wishing.

Offline Lockepick

Wish (and Miracle) is the only really spell I have any fear of! Every other spell is perfectly fine/awesome.

Though I suppose Fabricate needs to be rekajiggered, since the material component is basically the material you shape into something. So still kind of... you can literally turn 5+th level spell slots into gold pieces/gems.

Offline PaleEnchantress

Wish (and Miracle) is the only really spell I have any fear of! Every other spell is perfectly fine/awesome.

Though I suppose Fabricate needs to be rekajiggered, since the material component is basically the material you shape into something. So still kind of... you can literally turn 5+th level spell slots into gold pieces/gems.

That's a very wonky working of it though. Mostly because what you get back is based on the material component you use. Like simulacrum you need the component in order for the spell to work because otherwise it has nothing to replicate.

Offline Lockepick

I think your reading is perfectly logical -- I only know of Fabricate being wonky because of some infamous Blood Money + Fabricate combos from Pathfinder. If we want to go with that reading, that would make perfect sense, and keep it from being an accidental money-farm.

Offline PaleEnchantress

Storywise my character is still trying to shake being called "The Whore of Lachrymosa". Its name in life is somthing only it remembers and would prefer not to. For a proper name I'm caught between Atroxica and Cybele.

Offline KunoichiTopic starter

Okay, finally home now, and this is going to be a long post to type up...

First things first, since some excellent cases were made for them, we'll be using Pathfinder's feat progression and ability to substitute costly material components for xp costs in both crafting and spellcasting.  Pale's suggestion about still needing to pay material component costs on spell-like abilities of 5,000 gp or greater (which includes spells which cost 1,000 xp or greater with the new rule about xp costs) is also being put into play, however, and you're still going to be required to take Dark Speech to qualify for the Demon Lord template, rather than gaining it as a bonus feat.  So, that's two pieces of good news and two pieces of bad news that should hopefully cancel each other out. ^^;

Okay, here comes my char (completed), I make his avatar later if GM and folks are okay with it. I took from legendary monster the special attack to have 5th level cleric spellcasting (and I changed the three domains as part of my demonic prince ascension to more suited for Vholdran's personality/theme). So he has 16th level cleric spellcasting (which is almost good as ur-priest one and fits his HD = CL as diviner). Instead extra giant level I took one extra PrC level in Paragnostic Apostle to fill the gap needed for 16 HD (and level in said PrC fits more my char theme anyways if speak what it gives; as my char seeks knowledge as power as main theme along with mystical powers and divinations). As note in his first level he had feat which gave all knowledge skills as class skills (education) and so he retrained it away to get dark speech instead (so he could qualify to enter divine oracle after 5 levels as giant).

The free bonus hit die for creatures with odd-numbered HD has to be a racial hit die, unfortunately.  You can take an extra level of Paragnostic Apostle instead, if you want, but I'm going to say that it's going to cost +1 CR to do so.

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Also I took liberty in that obyrith subtype gives me fast healing but it's hard to determine it and I haven't seen creatures with both fast healing and regeneration abilities, so I decide instead increase my regeneration by +10 so it matches closer to some demon lord regeneration (and it's bypassed by fire but also my special weakness makes fire really destructive vs my char so that's why it's 15 than 10).

That seems like a fine trade-off, but the Obyrith subtype itself presents some conflicts with your backstory.  Obyriths are the original inhabitants of the Abyss, spawned directly from the raw chaos and evil that makes up the fabric of the plane.  Tanar'ri and the occasional Loumara are the demon breeds formed from mortal souls, so if you want to be an Ogre Magi who was transformed into a demon, you'd need to take one of those subtypes instead.

That said, if you'd prefer to keep the Obyrith subtype, that does open up some other potential backstory options for you.  You could easily be a truly ancient creature, possibly even a former demon lord whose main body was cast down and destroyed when the Tanar'ri rebelled and overthrew their Obyrith masters, and who only managed to survive to the present day by living on through a fiendish aspect that managed to escape the attempted purging of the Obyrith race.  Your former backstory could actually be a carefully-maintained cover that you use to keep yourself from being discovered by some of your old enemies, and you could possibly even steal the Vecna-Blooded template's Cloak of Mystery special quality to give yourself immunity to divination effects, and thus the ability to maintain said cover in the face of spells like Legend Lore. (And keeping the bit about Vecna being the only one who knows your true identity, or possibly replacing him with one of the remaining Obyrith demon lords, could even provide some interesting plot material...)

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Well, one part is missing and you may had guessed it; special attack. It was uncertain was 'seer sight' special attack or just Vhaldron's unique ability to 'battle foes with magic through divinations'. Do note that his foes need lack defenses vs divinations and they can dispel the eye away (it is like project image all regards, only that Vhaldron does not need line of effect for it to work and conjures it where his divination sensor/angle is).

Monsters of Faerun has a creature in it called the Sharn that has a 'Hex Windows' special ability that works extremely similarly to Seer's Sight.  The Hex Windows ability counts as a special attack, so I'm thinking Seer's Sight should probably count as one as well.  That leaves a slot for a special quality to you open, which I suggested above could be something like the Cloak of Mystery ability, although I'm sure you already have some ideas on what to take.

Also, in order to help keep things straight, could you fill out a list sort of like the one I made for Torahime close to the bottom of page 1, listing what your special abilities from the Demon Lord template are? ^^; I'll include a little template below that you can fill in, to help make it easier to do so.

Code: [Select]
[b]Name here[/b]
Base creature, templates, and class levels here (demonic subtype here)
[b]Additional Spell-Like Abilities[/b]
At-will - [i]two spell-like abilities of third level or below[/i]
3/day - [i]two spell-like abilities of fifth level or below, one symbol spell[/i]
1/day - [i]two spell-like abilities of seventh level or below[/i]
[b]Additional Weaknesses[/b]
[i]Additional weakness name (Ex)[/i] Description of additional weakness
[b]Special ability name[/b] List two special qualities and one special attack gained from demon lord template, as well as additional special attack specific to demonic subtype (Summon for Tanar'ri, Form of Madness for Obyrith, Possession for Loumara).

Ah, and Gaze of Madness is your take on the Obyrith subtype's Form of Madness ability, right?  That looks pretty flavorful and fitting, I think. ^^ Although, looking over other parts of your sheet, I should note for the Staff of Fel Fire that the Domain Draught you've added to it is a one-shot item that only lasts 24 hours.  For an item that would give you more permanent access to the Fire domain, I'd recommend looking into an item called a Domain Staff in Complete Champion.  Also, since Greater Magic Weapon is on the Cleric list, do you really need to spend the money to get yourself a full +5 weapon?  You could probably save quite a bit by merely making it a +1 weapon with a few useful properties and then cast Greater Magic Weapon on it every day.

I haven't figured out a weakness yet, and since I'm sort of... unsure on feats, I wasn't that worried. If everybody else has one though -- I'll gladly do so.

We can help you pick out some good feats if you find yourself needing any suggestions on that front.  As for weaknesses, I've got a couple of suggestions for you there.

First, note on the Vampire Lord template that becoming a Vampire Lord removes many of the weaknesses that you would have had as an ordinary vampire.  One possibility for a special weakness is to bring those standard Vampiric Weaknesses back, though of course you'd want to still keep the clause about needing extraordinary special measures to permanently kill you.

I was thinking either something along the lines of addiction (but it's hard to pick one thing), or playing off his vampire state. Like allowing him to be Turn Undead'd. Though he's got a +8 turn resist, so that might be like... a bullshit offer.

This is another good possibility for a weakness, though you'd want to take it a little further than just being susceptible to turn undead.  You could count as still being an undead creature for any effect that would be harmful to you, including spells that target undead creatures, turning, favored enemy bonuses, and so on.  This would be a rather fitting and flavorful weakness, though it would give you reason to both hate and fear Orcus, whose status as the Demon Prince of the Undead gives him an aura that lets him take full command of any undead creatures that go near him.

I think your reading is perfectly logical -- I only know of Fabricate being wonky because of some infamous Blood Money + Fabricate combos from Pathfinder. If we want to go with that reading, that would make perfect sense, and keep it from being an accidental money-farm.

Fortunately, I don't think that that combo exists in D&D 3.5.  The most you can do there is Wall of Iron + Fabricate with a high enough craft check to make masterwork weapons and then sell them off that way.  Which, admittedly, is still something of an infinite money combo, but I don't think anyone here is going to try and abuse things like that.

Nice :). I would love advices/suggestions for my demon prince char (and special attack or comments on his chosen special qualities). Also do remember if possible in sunday get my feline done in other game (tonight cannot update as I spend +6 hours doing my demon prince :P).

Don't worry, I'll be spending the rest of tonight working on your feline companion.

Offline PaleEnchantress

My characters most powerful and true signature special ability. I'm sure there are some kinks in it people can help me smooth out. The whole character concept revolves around this ability. I use the name Cybele though im not sure thats the one The Whore will be choosing to go by yet.

Vicissitude (Su)

Vicsissitude (Su):

Cybele's most notorious ability is it's power to drastically change, mutilate, twist and reform others bodies with just a touch. In a manner much like the artifact known as "The Despoiler of Flesh" Cybele can create horrors completely unique to it's own horrid imagination.

Cybele must physically touch it's target to change it, requiring a touch attack against an unwilling target. The effect allows a saving throw Fort DC (12 + 1/2 Cybele's level + Cha Mod). It works as the Polymorph spell except it allows forms up to 20 hit dice, outsider forms are allowed, Cybele may change only parts of it's victim if it wishes and each alteration causes 2d6 damage to the target instead of regaining lost hit points. This damage could potentially be lethal. This damage can be healed normally.

Almost all bodies can handle 4 changes total, a 5th change will either fail or greatly harm the subject. If such a change is attempted the subject must make a Fort save of the same DC to resist the change. Success means no alteration happens, failure causes 15d6 damage from the trauma of the attempt, but still no alteration takes place. Changing one creature into an other completely counts as a single change. Only one change may be made per round.

 Potential single changes could be things like turning all of the creatures limbs into tentacles, removing all of it's teeth, turning it's head into that of an unberhulk, changing its size category by one, changing its hands into lamprey like maws, adding or removing wings, weakening or reinforcing it's natural armor, adding or changing its subtype to a valid one like (cold), and other such things. Almost all changes are done statistically by finding a legal creature with a corresponding attribute and modifying the subject to have that. Size limits can cause certain alterations to fail. Cybelee can remove a change to add another.

For example Cybele could have a succubus bound helpless (thus no need for touch attacks) and for simplicity we assume she always fails her save. First she turns it into something resembling a spirit naga, it is affected exactly as if the spell Polymorph had been used to turn the succubus into a spirit naga. Then she gives mutates it's flesh to form large dragconic wings giving it a flight speed of 150 (Poor) like a young red dragon. The spirit naga form is not large enough to have received the wings of a Wyrm red dragon. For thew third change Cybele makes its victim grow long sinewy arms ending in claws like an annis hag. Now the former succubus has a claw attack as well as the ability to manipulate things with its hands. Finally, really liking how the claws look, decides to improve upon them giving them more of the Hags power. The former succubus gains the "Rake" special quality. If Cybele then tried to make slime coated tentacles that can paralyze like a Chuul form from its mouth, the change would fail and the succubus would have to save to see if she takes 15d6 damage or not. If cybelee was unsatisfied with its work she could make the former succubus lose all bodily alterations done and polymorph into a hill giant, resetting things to 1 change done. If the succubus ever alters it's form with it's own polymorph ability it does not lose the ability to assume the mutated form Cybele gave it.

Cybelee can make moderate cosmetic changes to a target without it being considered one of the 4 maximum changes a creature can endure. It is in the metagame sense that Cybelee's alterations must mimic creatures that already exist and are legal polymorph forms. It does not necessarily think of its fleshcrafting as mimicking a body part or ability of another creature. Anything added or changed does not have to look exactly like the part of the monster it mimics, though the appearance must make sense. For instance in the above example Cybele could have wanted to give the former succubus large butterfly wings and they could still add the flight of a young red dragon. She could not, however, have made short toes grow along the former succubus' spine that function like young red dragon wings. 

The creatures natural form can be restored through use of the spell Polymorph Any Object, Greater Restoration, Miracle, Wish, and any spell of higher then 6th level made to restore a creature to its natural form.

Offline Lockepick

In regards to the Obyrith subtype: Does that mean that no new Obyrith ever form? I guess I read that fluff as being like... that's their legacy and claim-to-fame, but not that literally every Obyrith was from a time before time. Otherwise, would only characters with a demonic base race for their character be able to select Obyrith?

Offline Lockepick

Take Two of my Qualities/Weaknesses:

I should also note that the Whisper Demon's 'Maddening Whispers', which is very similar to Aura of Inebriation (and the power I based it off of) is actually a Special Quality. I only point this out because I wonder if it was a mistake for the Remmanon to have it listed as a Special Attack -- since the Remmanon (MM5) doesn't even have a line/entry for Special Qualities. I'm happy to go with whatever the GMs decide here -- using it as a Special Attack or Special Quality, but I thought I'd just point out the potential mistake and see where we go. If we do decide to make the Aura a Quality, that would take the #1 slot for Qualities and bump everything up one.

Special Qualities:
1)
Connoisseur of Life (su)
Fluff: Methu's expertise in draining the very life essence from his targets, whether it is blood, emotions, or their soul, allows him to improvise new and exciting ways. Spells and magic items can't keep Methu's hunger at bay, and can't keep him from his meal.

Mechanics: Methu's can bypass any protection from ability/level drain by making a CL Check vs the Caster Level + 10 of the effect granting the protection. Immunities inherent to their Type can not be bypassed in this way. ie: Constructs/Undead/Deathless still have no blood/soul. An attempt to bypass the protection can occur once per strike, and once it's been bypassed, no further checks are required for 24 hrs, or unless a new level of protection is put in place. Damage can still be healed as normal. Methu can also recognize the 'taste' of anybody he's drank from, should they get away and Methu get another taste, regardless of disguises or polymorphing.

Source: No real basis, honestly. First part was just to be on par, and would be compared to the numerous effects that ignore elemental immunity, or ignore immunity to Mind-Affecting. The latter part I just thought would be cute -- though combined with the aura nature of Drain Wisdom, could see through disguises within 10'.

2)
Guardian Souls (su)
Fluff: Methu has devoured countless victims in his decades of decadence. Many of those souls were loyal to him; either through love, infatuation, or religious devotion. Those souls still seek to protect and benefit him, and the essence of the devotee's souls form a wreathe or a crown around his head and offer him protection with telepathic warnings of his surroundings.

Mechanics: The Guardian Souls exist around Methu constantly, giving him a Profane Bonus equal to his Charisma mod towards Spot, Listen, and Initiative. They also make it so that any Negative Energy Damage that Methu suffers heals him instead of damaging him, and grants Methu immunity to any Negative Energy Effects, including Death Effects. The Guardian Souls can be effected by Turn/Rebuke Undead. They're treated as a single Undead with Methu's HD, and if Turned/Rebuked, go inactive for 1d10 rounds.

Source: The Death Giant (MM3) has this broken into two abilities: Guardian Souls (Gives bonus equal to Charisma Mod to Spot, Listen, Initiative, and Saves. Cloud can be 'turned' for 1d10 rds) and Soul Healing (As long as cloud is up, and negative energy damage heals instead of injures). I thought my saves were already good enough, but removing the saves portion was a big part of it. I also changed the untyped bonuses to Profane, since untyped seemed like an oversight. I merged the two abilities, and added the kicker about immunity to death effects -- which I thought was fitting for the character.

3)
Greater Invisibility or Hide in Plain Sight
Fluff: After decades of hiding from those who would rightfully fear a Vampire, and more decades using subterfuge to get ahead in the Abyss, Methu has learned to slip away from sight. Whether it's to ambush a target, or to be the 'fly on the wall' to eavesdrop.

Mechanics: A constant Greater Invisibility.

Source: I got the original idea for Greater Invisibility from the Phantom Fungus (MM). It's unlikely to be super useful in a world of see invis and true seeing -- but it seemed fitting for the stealthy vampire.


Weakness: (May only take one even if both are approved)
1) Weakness to Holy Symbols: First and foremost, Methu can be Turned and Rebuked just as he could before he regained his humanity. Second, similar to a normal vampire, he can be kept at bay by anybody brandishing a Holy Symbol. Keeping him at bay requires a standard action, and means that Methu can not Touch or make any Melee Attacks towards the person brandishing it.
2) Vulnerability to Holy Water: Holy water, for both it's religious significance and its purity, are both contrary to Methu's being. The damage of holy water is doubled on Methu. When assessing potential damage due to submersion: a vial of holy water would be 4d4 damage for Methu, compared to a vial of acid being 1d6.

Online Re Z L

Some brainstorming...

Base Creature???  (Tsochar?)
Obyrith Subtype
Swarm-Shifter Template (Spider) (+1 CR)
Lloth-Touched (+1 CR)

Warshaper?
Master of Many Forms?

Demon Lord Template (+2 CR)



Tsochar  -  4 HD  -  4 CR
Obyrith  -  0 HD  -  0 CR
Swarm-Shifter  -  0 HD  -  1 CR
Lloth-Touched  -  0 HD  -  1 CR
Monster of Legend  -  0 HD  -  2 CR
Classes  -  12 HD  -  6 CR

Demon Lord  -  0 HD  -  2 CR

Totals  -  16 HD  -  16 CR
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 01:52:18 AM by Re Z L »

Offline Mantis Shrimp Prime

Ok. Will probably get to a proper OOC or something tomorrow.

Point being that I don't have to, since I get my own supply of Wishes. And if we're not awarded XP, ignoring it as a cost also makes sense.

Well, in lieu of xp, I generally require costly material components. Bunch of shiny rocks, must like resurrection or something.

Quote
Though I will ask...are Efreeti really that close-knit and chummy with each other, being Lawful Evil and all, that having one of their (infinite) number be kidnapped and enslaved will bring the entire rest of the race down on the fool who dared provoke them?

Well, it's a matter of pride. Can't let upstart mortals act treat you like potential summon fodder.
And I tend to play Efreeti as more like a mafia-type family, so they *are* chummy with each other, just not chummy with others. Kind of a way to contrast them to the more typical hierarchy climbing devils.

I mean, efreeti... all they need is a mortal to wish something for them, and in exchange give a wish in return. Efreeti got the wishing racket figured out. You don't want to mess with the Efreeti.


Just a note, but for all my campaigning to keep access to Wishes galore, I won't be too upset if it goes away. Having approximately All The Spells is nice, but I can still maintain my core concept of a fear-based illusionist without them.

I guess the issue I'd have is being able to spam them all day long. You're getting, like, at-will wishes with no cost as as spell-like ability or something?


I suppose it depends what you are after. Is it having every spell, being versatile, etc? That's fine, I mean, you can be a wizard, and have every opportunity to put every spell ever in your spellbook, including custom researched version of non-wizard  spells, maybe even homebrew ones.

Is it to have an "I win" button for every encounter? Because it'll never be that easy. It'll devolve to a point where we might as well throw out the rules altogether.
This is already a permissive game, but I think we'll need some limits.

So, GM hat on,
1) No wishes or similar big effects for free.
2) For overly versatile effects (wish, miracle, and shadow magic tricks), no unlimited uses per day.
If you character build gives you such, nerf them.
Also, no Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos because that stuff is just silly.

Any similar quirks to get some kind of infinite resources, just, no, there will be logical repercussion in-story, it'll probably wreck the story, so... let's just not.



Online Re Z L

*Sneaks in and replaces the GM hat with the Sorting Hat.*

Online TheGlyphstone


I guess the issue I'd have is being able to spam them all day long. You're getting, like, at-will wishes with no cost as as spell-like ability or something?
Not at will, just as one of my Spells Known. But taking a copy of the Phaerimm Magic ability as my Unique Special Attack turns my spells into spell-like abilities with no components (material or XP), so I'd have Wishes at no cost up to 6 times per day, if I didn't spend any 9th level spells/day on anything else (and my other option is Shapechange). Limited Wish would be available a maximum of 8/day if I devoted all my 7th level slots to it.

Quote
So, GM hat on,
1) No wishes or similar big effects for free.
2) For overly versatile effects (wish, miracle, and shadow magic tricks), no unlimited uses per day.
If you character build gives you such, nerf them.
Also, no Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos because that stuff is just silly.
\
Awwwww. Frankly, this is the only sort of game where I'd find the Chaos Shuffle to actually be appropriate to the characters/theme. But it is kind of silly, even with the interpretation I use that a feat Shuffled away still occupies its 'slot' (so you can't, say, go to the Frog God's Fane repeatedly to get Skill Focuses and Shuffle them, you get one Skill Focus from one visit ever and can Shuffle it if you want).


EDIT: And, apparently after browsing a bit, the Zodar from the Fiend Folio has Wish as a supernatural ability, and is a viable target for Shapechange - so I could technically get Wishes anyways, unless you just want to flatly say 'no easy/cheap access to Wish', in which case I'll just pick a different 9th level spell known. If I'm really after anything with it, it's just the idea of having that level of toolbox utility at my fingertips; definitely not a win button for every possible situation, since I'm locked out of other 9ths and any non-Sorcerer/Wizard 8th, but it's still an immense toolbox full of potential 'Make It Easier' buttons for all sorts of sticky problems we might face. The potential amuses me, which is why I'm arguing for it, but it's entirely tangential to my actual character, so I won't cry too loudly if I lose it.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 02:06:13 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Mantis Shrimp Prime

1) K, so that's fine. I mean miracle is free anyway... and does almost the same thing.
2) And ehh, see, that's just weirdness I don't like. I mean, if you want to use it to force random peasants to suddenly gain abyssal feats, that'd be interesting and flavorful. But using it as a combination "swap feat" spell, especially to get any old feat for any other old feat. No weirdness with the eldritch location bonus feats, or bonus feats from other myriad soruces, or gods no not weapon proficiencies. There's a limit where it just becomes silly.

EDIT: And, apparently after browsing a bit, the Zodar from the Fiend Folio has Wish as a supernatural ability, and is a viable target for Shapechange - so I could technically get Wishes anyways, unless you just want to flatly say 'no easy/cheap access to Wish', in which case I'll just pick a different 9th level spell known. If I'm really after anything with it, it's just the idea of having that level of toolbox utility at my fingertips; definitely not a win button for every possible situation, since I'm locked out of other 9ths and any non-Sorcerer/Wizard 8th, but it's still an immense toolbox full of potential 'Make It Easier' buttons for all sorts of sticky problems we might face. The potential amuses me, which is why I'm arguing for it, but it's entirely tangential to my actual character, so I won't cry too loudly if I lose it.

I'm inclined to go with the ruling that you, as a zodar, only get the what, 1/year wish, and that turning into a zodar against doesn't "refresh" your uses in situations like that.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 02:10:28 AM by Mantis Shrimp Prime »

Online TheGlyphstone

I do think swapping racial proficiencies is also beyond my tolerance level, because I don't think they count as feats in the first place. But it is handy in high-level high-power games when you want to trade a class-mandated garbage bonus feat for something useful, like the Marshal's Skill Focus (Diplomacy), and the normal Shuffle does have a pretty stiff cost - two 8th level spells at 1200+1250 apiece, you're spending 4,900 gold just to do a feat exchange, in addition to whatever costs you incurred to get that bonus feat in the first place. Here, though, it would be entirely free, so banning it is okay; all I can really think I'd do with it anyways it is get metamagics, I'm pretty much full on the core feats I need to make my build happen.

Quote
I'm inclined to go with the ruling that you, as a zodar, only get the what, 1/year wish, and that turning into a zodar against doesn't "refresh" your uses in situations like that.

Logical enough that I can't argue with it. And now I don't need to worry about it anyways.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 02:14:54 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Mantis Shrimp Prime

I do think swapping racial proficiencies is also beyond my tolerance level, because I don't think they count as feats in the first place. But it is handy in high-level high-power games when you want to trade a class-mandated garbage bonus feat for something useful, like the Marshal's Skill Focus (Diplomacy), and the normal Shuffle does have a pretty stiff cost - two 8th level spells at 1200+1250 apiece, you're spending 4,900 gold just to do a feat exchange, in addition to whatever costs you incurred to get that bonus feat in the first place. Here, though, it would be entirely free, so banning it is okay; all I can really think I'd do with it anyways it is get metamagics, I'm pretty much full on the core feats I need to make my build happen.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to get into the semantics of what qualifies as a feat.
I just got through reading a particularly bone-headed thread regarding such things.
Since, there's precedent that the armor proficiency everyone gets are actually feats...
But I mean, it's D&D. It's basically the Elder Scrolls of RPGs. (i.e. put out a bunch of content to inspire people, and then expect the fanbase to fix everything for you through houserules/mods.)


It's a complex issue. One feat is unfortunately NOT equal to another, and I think even the designers admit to that. So Marshal's getting skill focus (diplomacy) is part of the class's flavor, an extra perk you get, not supposed to be a cornerstone... mind you, Marshal ain't the strongest class and if we wanted to rework the whole concept to be more balanced, I'm always up for hardcore homebrewing... such that I'd straight up let you take a different, thematically fitting feat for the class anyway.

I'm a fluff oriented DM. I like things to make sense story-wise. Dark Chaos Shuffle doesn't at all, unless you use a character arc where the person accumulates a bunch of the abyssal heritor feats, then gains redemption, and trades them all in for the climax. But doing it over and over? Nah.

But at the same time, I'm usually up for cutting other options out of whole cloth for the sake of making something interesting rather than some legalistic loophole that stretches things. Lots of prestige classes, for instance, have great flavor but also random abilities that make no sense (one of my biggest complaints here comes from Pathfinder, specifically the Pathfinder Chronicler, which I love, which has something interest skill-focused abilities and then, uh... gets summoning Vikings? Okay...). Or stuff like Blighter which is an interesting concept for a death/mutation/dark side of nature focused druid but... requires you to be a Captain Planet villain...

So that's my piece. You want to just... go crazy at character generation with trying to pick alternatives, or do so during character level up, I'm totally down with that and the only real limit is trying not to unbalance you vis a vis your fellow players any more than is already unavoidable in high powered D&D... and of course, any such decisions will be subject to a council of your peers (i.e. if the other players get edgy about it, no... this is a major reason for me saying no wishes, because, yeah, then everybody would do it, like Enchantress mentioned...)

That's the only limitation from my standpoint in terms of character creation. If I was doing a solo game for you, I'd totally be fine letting you have like, twenty bonus feats, if there was a justification (like, i dunno, you're an immortal and have picked up lots of neat tricks). Even a simple one like "eh, you're just powerful/talented".
I might even let an infinite wishes character fly, though you'd have to be fine with the logic path such a story might take.

I'm much more concerned with things making sense in the events of the story. So anything that requires active in-story actions on the part of the character are much more subject to limitations.











Offline KunoichiTopic starter

My characters most powerful and true signature special ability. I'm sure there are some kinks in it people can help me smooth out. The whole character concept revolves around this ability. I use the name Cybele though im not sure thats the one The Whore will be choosing to go by yet.

It looks like a pretty good special attack, and very fitting for both your character concept and the sort of fun you like to have in games like these. ^^ That said, as written, I think it's just a little too powerful, compared to other special abilities in play.  There's two small changes I'd like to propose for the ability.

First, in keeping with the fact that we're all CR 16 and 16 HD, cutting the ability down to forms of 16 HD or less would probably be a good idea.  The Silthilar's Warp Flesh ability functions as Polymorph Any Object, but is limited to a caster level of 9, equal to that creature's HD, so there is some precedent there.

Second, I think that any alterations you make that cause a statistical change should be permanent.  This will ultimately be a much smaller limit on the ability than the first suggestion, but will change the aesthetics of it a bit, since the subjects for it (such as the example succubus) won't be re-usable.

In regards to the Obyrith subtype: Does that mean that no new Obyrith ever form? I guess I read that fluff as being like... that's their legacy and claim-to-fame, but not that literally every Obyrith was from a time before time. Otherwise, would only characters with a demonic base race for their character be able to select Obyrith?

I imagine that new Obyriths do still form in the Abyss, especially in those remote layers that are too inhospitable to the Tanar'ri, where the Obyriths are still able to hold sway.  That said, being formed from the souls of chaotic evil mortals means that the Tanar'ri are able to reproduce much more quickly than the Obyriths, since mortal souls get sent to the Abyss much more often than the Abyss randomly spawns living creatures, and thanks to that, Obyriths are generally quite rare.

That said, I suggested the 'ancient evil from a time before time' approach for Zaer mostly because it seemed like a very cool possibility for a backstory. ^^;

Take Two of my Qualities/Weaknesses:

I should also note that the Whisper Demon's 'Maddening Whispers', which is very similar to Aura of Inebriation (and the power I based it off of) is actually a Special Quality. I only point this out because I wonder if it was a mistake for the Remmanon to have it listed as a Special Attack -- since the Remmanon (MM5) doesn't even have a line/entry for Special Qualities. I'm happy to go with whatever the GMs decide here -- using it as a Special Attack or Special Quality, but I thought I'd just point out the potential mistake and see where we go. If we do decide to make the Aura a Quality, that would take the #1 slot for Qualities and bump everything up one.

Actually, the Whisper Demon definitely has Maddening Whispers as a special attack, not a special quality.  It has Madness as a special quality, but Maddening Whispers is listed next to 'Aura' on its statblock, and auras that force saving throws pretty much always count as special attacks in the D&D rules.

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Special Qualities:
1)
Connoisseur of Life (su)
Fluff: Methu's expertise in draining the very life essence from his targets, whether it is blood, emotions, or their soul, allows him to improvise new and exciting ways. Spells and magic items can't keep Methu's hunger at bay, and can't keep him from his meal.

Mechanics: Methu's can bypass any protection from ability/level drain by making a CL Check vs the Caster Level + 10 of the effect granting the protection. Immunities inherent to their Type can not be bypassed in this way. ie: Constructs/Undead/Deathless still have no blood/soul. An attempt to bypass the protection can occur once per strike, and once it's been bypassed, no further checks are required for 24 hrs, or unless a new level of protection is put in place. Damage can still be healed as normal. Methu can also recognize the 'taste' of anybody he's drank from, should they get away and Methu get another taste, regardless of disguises or polymorphing.

Source: No real basis, honestly. First part was just to be on par, and would be compared to the numerous effects that ignore elemental immunity, or ignore immunity to Mind-Affecting. The latter part I just thought would be cute -- though combined with the aura nature of Drain Wisdom, could see through disguises within 10'.

...And I suddenly remembered another suggestion that I came up with earlier today but forgot to type out when I got home. ><; There's a pre-existing demon lord, Shaktari the Queen of Mariliths, who has an ability that might be a good base for this one.  It's called Aura of Toxin, and it extends out to 120 feet and causes all foes within that range who would be immune to poison to lose their poison immunity, aside from constructs, elementals, the undead, and any creatures Shaktari chooses to exclude from the aura's effect.  Additionally, effects that would cause poison damage to not take place or that would delay poison damage also do not work.

You could do something similar for your energy drain.  120 ft aura, removes immunity to energy drain from all creatures aside from constructs, the undead, and any creatures Methu chooses to exclude from the aura's effect, and effects that would remove negative levels (such as Restoration) cannot perform that function while within 120 ft of Methu.

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2)
Guardian Souls (su)
Fluff: Methu has devoured countless victims in his decades of decadence. Many of those souls were loyal to him; either through love, infatuation, or religious devotion. Those souls still seek to protect and benefit him, and the essence of the devotee's souls form a wreathe or a crown around his head and offer him protection with telepathic warnings of his surroundings.

Mechanics: The Guardian Souls exist around Methu constantly, giving him a Profane Bonus equal to his Charisma mod towards Spot, Listen, and Initiative. They also make it so that any Negative Energy Damage that Methu suffers heals him instead of damaging him, and grants Methu immunity to any Negative Energy Effects, including Death Effects. The Guardian Souls can be effected by Turn/Rebuke Undead. They're treated as a single Undead with Methu's HD, and if Turned/Rebuked, go inactive for 1d10 rounds.

Source: The Death Giant (MM3) has this broken into two abilities: Guardian Souls (Gives bonus equal to Charisma Mod to Spot, Listen, Initiative, and Saves. Cloud can be 'turned' for 1d10 rds) and Soul Healing (As long as cloud is up, and negative energy damage heals instead of injures). I thought my saves were already good enough, but removing the saves portion was a big part of it. I also changed the untyped bonuses to Profane, since untyped seemed like an oversight. I merged the two abilities, and added the kicker about immunity to death effects -- which I thought was fitting for the character.

3)
Greater Invisibility or Hide in Plain Sight
Fluff: After decades of hiding from those who would rightfully fear a Vampire, and more decades using subterfuge to get ahead in the Abyss, Methu has learned to slip away from sight. Whether it's to ambush a target, or to be the 'fly on the wall' to eavesdrop.

Mechanics: A constant Greater Invisibility.

Source: I got the original idea for Greater Invisibility from the Phantom Fungus (MM). It's unlikely to be super useful in a world of see invis and true seeing -- but it seemed fitting for the stealthy vampire.

Guardian Souls is an ability that I really like, and swapping out the saving throw bonus on it for the ability to be healed by negative energy doesn't seem like an overpowered substitution to me..  It also seems like it's going to be a lot more useful to you than constant Greater Invisibility, especially since you can then take Inflict Serious Wounds as one of your at-will spell-like abilities to help with self-healing.

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Weakness: (May only take one even if both are approved)
1) Weakness to Holy Symbols: First and foremost, Methu can be Turned and Rebuked just as he could before he regained his humanity. Second, similar to a normal vampire, he can be kept at bay by anybody brandishing a Holy Symbol. Keeping him at bay requires a standard action, and means that Methu can not Touch or make any Melee Attacks towards the person brandishing it.
2) Vulnerability to Holy Water: Holy water, for both it's religious significance and its purity, are both contrary to Methu's being. The damage of holy water is doubled on Methu. When assessing potential damage due to submersion: a vial of holy water would be 4d4 damage for Methu, compared to a vial of acid being 1d6.

When I suggested Vampiric Weaknesses for a special weakness, I was more suggesting something closer to the complete package of vampiric weaknesses as a single special weakness. ^^; Something along the lines of...

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Vampiric Weaknesses (Ex) Methu cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it.  Similarly, he recoils when faced with a strongly presented holy symbol.  These things don’t harm Methu—they merely keep him at bay.  While recoiling, Methu must stay at least 5 feet away from a creature holding the holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against the creature holding the item for the rest of the encounter.  Holding Methu at bay takes a standard action.
Methu is also unable to cross running water, although he can be carried over it while resting in his coffin or aboard a ship, and can teleport past it without issue.  Immersing Methu in running water robs him of one-third of his hit points each round until he is disabled at the end of the third round of immersion.

You still get to lose the weakness to wooden stakes and have a reduced weakness to sunlight, but have a little more of the weaknesses of a regular vampire as part of your being.  You also get to have a reflection and not worry about being repelled by mirrors, since Methu seems like the sort of person who would enjoy getting the chance to admire his own reflection every now and then.

And for the other special weakness I suggested...

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Tomb-Tainted Soul (Ex) Though Methu the Imbiber was returned to life by Graz'zt, his body and soul still carry the taint of undeath from the time he spent as a vampire.  Whenever Methu is subjected to an effect for which it would be harmful or disadvantageous for him to count as an undead being (such as turn undead, a Command Undead spell, favored enemy (undead), or other such effects), that effect counts him as an intelligent undead being.

These are just suggestions, though, so if you don't like how they look or have problems with them, we can definitely work to try and find something you're more satisfied with.

Edit:
Tsochar  -  4 HD  -  4 CR
Obyrith  -  0 HD  -  0 CR
Swarm-Shifter  -  0 HD  -  1 CR
Lloth-Touched  -  0 HD  -  1 CR
Monster of Legend  -  0 HD  -  2 CR
Classes  -  12 HD  -  6 CR

Demon Lord  -  0 HD  -  2 CR

Totals  -  16 HD  -  16 CR

Well, that would certainly make a creature that would fit in with general Obyrith aesthetics, though I should note that you'd specifically gain the Obyrith subtype from the Demon Lord template, rather than as its own separate thing.

For your class levels, you might be interested to know that you can use psionics while inhabiting a host body.  Psychic Warrior would probably be the best option, considering what your mental stats are going to be like after adding on all the templates, although you could also afford to instead take the Cleric casting from Monster of Legend and take a divine casting prestige class or two.  You could even afford to lose a level of spellcasting, since you'll get an extra level from the template.

Any thoughts on backstory, personality, or any sort of general theme you'd like to have with this character?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2015, 03:51:02 AM by Kunoichi »

Online Zaer Darkwail

Thank you from advices Kunoichi, I will work on my sheet bit more and cool idea for background story :).

Offline Mantis Shrimp Prime

Hmmm...  now which rock song am  I going to name this game after...


Online Zaer Darkwail

Hmmm...  now which rock song am  I going to name this game after...

Or metal song?

Offline Mantis Shrimp Prime

Well, metal is a subset of rock.
Mineral music, you might say.


Offline KunoichiTopic starter

*does a quick google search*

Seasons in the Abyss?

Offline Mantis Shrimp Prime

lol, that sounds like you're taking a vacation.

Maybe that's the explanation for the plot. You're squatting in Grazzt's "summer plane" since it's planar winter at the moment.
You'll have your fun for now, but once summer rolls around again... he'll be back.