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Author Topic: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)  (Read 7303 times)

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Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #325 on: April 12, 2015, 10:02:03 PM »
I played a Hydra once before, in another monsters-as-PCs game. Though that game it was just an ordinary Hydra with a Headband of Intelligence +6 making it sapient; each head had a different personality (and alignment), and they took turns wearing the headband each day. It was a very trippy character to play.

I did something like that with the snakes in a Medusa characters hair. I decided to make 14 one for each sin and virtue. They didn't take turns being dominant but they did each have their own head and personality.

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #326 on: April 12, 2015, 10:14:03 PM »
Im remembering why I never played a Sha'ir before despite knowing of them. Their spellcasting system is FUCKTARDEDLY complex. Did the person who wrote them actually thiunk about how playing one would work out because look at the bookeeping involved in just preparing your spells for the day. Except you can NEVER prepare your spells for the day as you lose prepared spell within hours of preparing them.

There are some things im not even clear on such as how do you work with spell slots in a prepared spell system when you lose prepared spell without casting them. When you lose the prepared spell from time elapse is the spell slot also expended? Does it just become an empty slot that can be filled again right away? Does losing a prepared spell by casting it consume the slot for the day? Is it even a "for the day" spell system where resting restores spell slots? Do retrieved spells have to be prepared or are they like "spells known" for sorcerer and I just use an unused slot to cast it. If thats the case it might not be so bad since I only have to keep track of what spells I know not where I have each one stored.

Once I know exactly how it works I may suggest a houserule or two to make bookkeeping go from FUCKTARDEDLY complex to simply extremely complex.


Edit: Let me create an example for better clarity. Assuming I understand how this works lets pretend level 6 Sha'ir wakes up from a night of sleeping and wants to get a few basic spells ready for use. As she slept for 8 hours and retrieved spells fade 6 hours after retrieving them (caster level) she has no spells she can cast yet no matter how many she could cast before she went to bed. Though unlikly we will pretend no bonus slots from high CHA for her so she has 3 level 3 spell slots all empty. She knows 2 third level spells Dispel Magic and Suggestion. She's had to deal with a lot of undead casters lately so she wants to just prepare dispel magic twice.

Sends Gen out to retrieve dispel magic. The diplomacy check is successful and the gen comes back in 5 rounds (1d4+3). No preparation time for memorizing spells is listed so I'm assuming once a spell is retrived it's "Memorized" instantly. So now her level three spells are one dispel magic, two empty slots.

Sends gen out again gen is gone for 6 rounds (1d4+3) diplomacy check fails. The only negative effect is the 6 rounds of wasted time she doesn't lose any spell slots over it.

Sends gen out again for that second dispel magic. Gen is gone for 4 rounds, diplomacy check is successful. So her level 3 spells are Dispel Magic, Dispel Magic and empty. She lesaves the final slot empty so she can fill it with something else as the situation arises. Her dispel magic spells will vanish from preparation in about 6 hours, the second vanishing 10 rounds after the first.

After 6 hours she used one dispel magic. The unused dispel magic fades leaving her three level 3 slots as: expended for the day, empty, empty? Now she has to rest to restore the expended slot but she can send her gen out immediately to prepare that second dispel magic again?
Am I correct on all this so far?

« Last Edit: April 12, 2015, 10:28:17 PM by PaleEnchantress »

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #327 on: April 12, 2015, 10:27:34 PM »
If it's that complex, what are the benefits to playing a Sha'ir instead of a more sensible spellcasting system?

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #328 on: April 12, 2015, 10:30:07 PM »
If it's that complex, what are the benefits to playing a Sha'ir instead of a more sensible spellcasting system?

Benefits: Cha based casting with a more flexible "wizard like" repertoire of spells. Access to a few divine spells too but those are more icing on the cake.

I edited my last comment creating an example of how I believe Sha'ir spellcasting to work.

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #329 on: April 12, 2015, 10:40:22 PM »
I am okay with the explanation you gave PaleEnchantress, in sense it takes some 'rounds' to get spell memorized on fly but you can prepare in advance but spell lingers only six hours while like that. It makes Sha'ir spells known very fluid.

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #330 on: April 12, 2015, 10:56:41 PM »
I am okay with the explanation you gave PaleEnchantress, in sense it takes some 'rounds' to get spell memorized on fly but you can prepare in advance but spell lingers only six hours while like that. It makes Sha'ir spells known very fluid.

I'm actually hoping I'm missing something with that explanation and it DOESN'T work like that because consider keeping track of your entire spell repertoire like that. Assuming she kept one spell slot of each level open and only failed once she made 13 diplomacy checks to get some spells ready for use. She now also has to keep track of how long each slot has left of that 6 hours. This isn't even touching what happens when she prepared spells that take minutes or hours to retrieve instead of rounds. - If this is exactly how it works there are some tweaks I would suggest making. The simplest one is saying spells on her small list of "spells known" (she can prepare spells she doesn't know) don't fade. So in the example she would simply retrieve dispel magic and commit it to two slots.

What I might have wrong is that Sha'ir doesn't "prepare" their retrieved spells and that retrieved spells act like a sorcerers spells known. So in my example she would have her gen retrieve suggestion and dispel magic both which she can then cast freely with her 3 slots as a sorcerer would. If *this* is how it works than it's a lot simpler to handle since most Sha'ir would just retrieve their full list of spells known every (caster level) hours which takes a few minutes at most. That would mean save for extreme circumstances a Sha'ir always has their spells known available and ready to cast similar to a sorcerer. Time management beyond that happens when they want to call upon spells they don't have on their spell list known which can take several minutes to several hours. In the several hour case the Sha'ir may even lose all their retrieved spells known and have to take a couple minutes to have their familiar retrieve those basic spells again after they get the one they spent hours to retrieve.

Online Kunoichi

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #331 on: April 12, 2015, 11:03:46 PM »
I think that the basic intent for the Sha'ir was probably that you'd leave most of your spell slots blank throughout the day and simply try to send your Gen familiar out to retrieve spells for you as needed.  That does mean you'd have to put up with a lot of bookkeeping, though.

I don't think it would be overpowered to make it so that your spells known don't fade, though.  That would be an easy way to make the class simpler to play, without majorly changing how it works. ^^

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #332 on: April 12, 2015, 11:07:22 PM »
I think that the basic intent for the Sha'ir was probably that you'd leave most of your spell slots blank throughout the day and simply try to send your Gen familiar out to retrieve spells for you as needed.  That does mean you'd have to put up with a lot of bookkeeping, though.

I don't think it would be overpowered to make it so that your spells known don't fade, though.  That would be an easy way to make the class simpler to play, without majorly changing how it works. ^^

Im gald you agree, but where does it actually say a Sha'ir prepares their spells upon retrieving them? The more I review it the more im thinking my second interpretation is correct. That you just retrieve a spell and that makes it available for so many hours to cast freely with your available slots.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #333 on: April 12, 2015, 11:11:36 PM »
Frankly, it sounds like just ripping out the entire casting mechanism and replacing it with an arcane version of the Spirit Shaman's spellcasting ability would make sense. Could keep the flavor/fluff - would lose the point-to-point versatility of retrieving individual spells as needed, but the headaches would be infinitely smaller.

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #334 on: April 12, 2015, 11:15:35 PM »
Frankly, it sounds like just ripping out the entire casting mechanism and replacing it with an arcane version of the Spirit Shaman's spellcasting ability would make sense. Could keep the flavor/fluff - would lose the point-to-point versatility of retrieving individual spells as needed, but the headaches would be infinitely smaller.

That is also 100% acceptable to me.

Offline CeruleanSerenity

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #335 on: April 12, 2015, 11:32:19 PM »
Well, no one starts as demigod (which is divine rank 0). But following guideline there are three ways;

1) Get enough followers to pray and recognize you as deity (potent spellcasters more easily garner favor so sublime chord is good way to do so). Numbers were insane though but followers can help spread word and thus expand your flock (epic leadership and legendary commander approach close to numbers you need).

2) Steal divine energies and imbue them on yourself (Cyric did this on Time of Troubles in Forgotten Realms by siphoning energies of God of Murder; Bhaal, albeit aided by Mask who was short sword at the time).

3) A divine entity empowers you directly and sponsors you to divinity.

Anycase paragon favored soul would work very well (cleric needs power directly from a god or believe in philosophy where as favored soul has innate divine battery, but cleric as class got more PrC options and domains give nice options also), I did some homebrew changes for favored soul so it's more interesting.

The first does seem the most direct approach, then... that's probably what she'll focus on, unless an opportunity for another way shows up. And you're right about the favored soul, so I think I will go with that.


I thought link this, as folks wonder inspirations for legendary monsters and came across it (note; Monster Girl Quest gives lots kinky ideas for monster related sex even with alien anatomy);



I have never played Monster Girl Quest, but as a fan of fluffy tails, I approve of this post.

Offline EdwardShane

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #336 on: April 12, 2015, 11:38:33 PM »
It's a japanese eroge game.  At one point early on, you encounter a nine tailed kitsune who offers you a reward of either cooking thin-fried tofu for you or touching her fluffy tail.  Of course, the option you WANT to choose is the one she doesn't give you, but still....touch fluffy tail became a (mini) meme among the fans because of it.

And of course, this is kinda relevant to what happens if you DO touch fluffy tail.....or at least, MGQ's equivalent.


Online Kunoichi

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #337 on: April 12, 2015, 11:42:06 PM »
Im gald you agree, but where does it actually say a Sha'ir prepares their spells upon retrieving them? The more I review it the more im thinking my second interpretation is correct. That you just retrieve a spell and that makes it available for so many hours to cast freely with your available slots.

It's right at the beginning.

Quote
Spells: A sha'ir's spells must be retrieved from the elemental planes by his familiar, an outsider called a gen.  Once retrieved, a spell remains set in the sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell, until cast or until a number of hours pass equal to the sha'ir's class level.

The Dragon Magazine issue it was originally a part of had a bunch of articles converting over things from old 2nd edition campaign settings that didn't have any sort of 3.5 support at the time, so that's probably why it's so strange compared to most casting classes.

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #338 on: April 13, 2015, 12:02:07 AM »
It's right at the beginning.

The Dragon Magazine issue it was originally a part of had a bunch of articles converting over things from old 2nd edition campaign settings that didn't have any sort of 3.5 support at the time, so that's probably why it's so strange compared to most casting classes.

Ahh okay I realize how it works now. It is the first headache educing level of complexity but what I had wrong is simply that you can't "prepare" multiple versions of the same spell.  It takes less than half an hour max for me to retrieve one of each of my spells known at my current level and they stay for 12 hours so I guess in *my* case bookeeping isn't to bad as long as I make sure on those two specific hours every 24 that my familiar isn't off getting another spell. Every 12 hours my familiar will start "recycling" the spells retrieved. I can't imagine any DM would strike during those few minutes where i may or may not have 1 or 2 specific spells ready then make me role dozens of dice and do nearly as many math problems to determine if Im missing any of my usual spells and if so which ones. - This is mechanically similar to "spells known don't fade" option but with a few extra steps and caveats (such as if the familiar is busy at said times). I'm going to continue to advocate spells known don't fade option. Then I only have to replace the ones I cast and dont have to time them otherwise. Either way the effect is similar, that spells known are usually ready to cast. The main limitation of not being able to cast the same spell repeatedly is also still in place.

There are still a few more things to keep track of and it is still quite a headache keeping a per hour schedule of when each spell fades but id usually have no more than a dozen spells readied that are not known. Most of the time those brand of spells would be cast before they fade since I'm retrieving them as I need them. Not quite so bad unless im always trying to keep a bunch of spells I don't know at the ready just in case.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2015, 12:03:42 AM by PaleEnchantress »

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #339 on: April 13, 2015, 01:20:59 AM »
Was looking through the GUCK, damn is it full of things that are useless, pointless, poorly written, infantile or just poorly in line with the way D&D rules work. There are a few decent things though. Most of which I can't see myself wanting to use, especially in this game. A few of the pregnancy manipulating magics fall here as I can see why such spells would exist and (those few) aren't horribly implemented.

A lot of the spells can be replicated with spells that are from official sources more elegantly. I could go on but there is no need to write a review. There was one feat and at least one spell I see see potential in though. Kiss Spell, and the spell Bliss. Amusingly there is a different metamagic kiss feat in the GUCK that uses a quintessentially bad mechanic. I like the idea behind a spell that gives extreme sexual sensation thats actually addicting to experience. I do think it should utilize the existing addiction rules though and not make it's own.

Offline TheGlyphstone

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #340 on: April 13, 2015, 02:26:14 AM »
The GUCK is kinda terrible overall. I prefer the BoEF, it is at least 'professional' quality writing even if very little of it is usable in the average game.

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #341 on: April 13, 2015, 02:52:00 AM »
The GUCK is kinda terrible overall. I prefer the BoEF, it is at least 'professional' quality writing even if very little of it is usable in the average game.

The BOEF was at least  well put together I agree. I'm internet friends with one of the writers too.

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #342 on: April 13, 2015, 04:35:10 AM »
Well, I say it's less headache (and less diplomacy rolling) if we just treat sha'ir as arcane version of spirit shaman (they have set limit how many spells they may 'know' but they choose daily manner what spells they know in given day). Anycase departing to swim and then go classes, so around +6 hours return.

Online Kunoichi

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #343 on: April 13, 2015, 12:33:19 PM »
It's probably a good idea to use the Spirit Shaman's spells known and spells per day, in that case, since they were determined with that style of casting in mind.  And when Pale selects her spells at the beginning of the day, she'll basically be sending her gen familiar out to bargain with various elemental powers for all of them all at once. ^^

Offline CeruleanSerenity

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #344 on: April 13, 2015, 02:19:38 PM »
The GUCK is kinda terrible overall. I prefer the BoEF, it is at least 'professional' quality writing even if very little of it is usable in the average game.
Oh, I'm reminded to ask... are either of these allowed? I would want to avoid any bad material, but if they are, I might have to glance over them to see if there is anything I might want to grab for fun.

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #345 on: April 13, 2015, 04:38:51 PM »
Oh, I'm reminded to ask... are either of these allowed? I would want to avoid any bad material, but if they are, I might have to glance over them to see if there is anything I might want to grab for fun.

Zaer mentioned them, but didn't actually say they were allowed. I gleaned that he might allow a few things on a case by case basis. If you like anything just ask yourself if something in D&D already does it better (if yes than there is no need to bother with it) and if the rules for it are concise and well integrated. If it is, feel free to ask. The worse he can do is say no.
As I said the GUCK has two "Kiss Spell" metamagic feats one is really cool and well done so I'll be asking Zaer if I can use it. Delivering spells by kiss is a desirable cornerstone of erotic D&D really. The other Kiss metamagic feat uses a mechanic that has appeared in no official book but is constantly showing up in the lowest quality 3rd party and homebrew ideas. I'd be better off trying to create a custom feat from scratch than asking Zaer if I can use that one.

Unrelated: I was listening to music this morning and ran across a song (In German) that I really like and realized how epic a flavor text it makes for my Dvati Cohort. The song is about an Incubus and its cool that the singer dubbed his voice in twice. At first it just sounds like he's saying the same stuff with each dub and just created a duet like effect. But when you really listen to it you notice the second voice is slightly changing the words. The main voice is singing something akin to a very romantic love song and the second voice singing along changing the words slightly to reflect the Incubus's diabolical true feelings. A lose translation made a really cool flavortext for a manipulative evil Dvati:

I want to color the world with red rose petals for you, I want to color the world red with your blood,
And to walk with you alone in the garden before the summer flowers die, And to die with you alone,
We're walking and I take you by the hand. I look after you in your sleep, We're walking and I take you in your sleep,
And I bring my heart as a Sacrifice for you. To protect you from sorrow, And I bring you, a sacrifice, away from all sorrow,
You are so amazingly beautiful I can't bear it when you cry, You are so amazingly beautiful when you cry,
And never will any power upon this earth be as strong as this love, And Never will it be love,
Sway, sawy In the dance. Come let us teach you,
Fly, fly, believe! For the morning is far off,
Dawn~! When light menaces the night,
Because you are alone when dreaming,
I can be with you and fly away before the dawn

Online PaleEnchantress

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #346 on: April 13, 2015, 05:55:05 PM »
Well, I say it's less headache (and less diplomacy rolling) if we just treat sha'ir as arcane version of spirit shaman (they have set limit how many spells they may 'know' but they choose daily manner what spells they know in given day). Anycase departing to swim and then go classes, so around +6 hours return.

Are our cohorts also using 32 point buy and whats their equipment budget? I miss swimming so badly, its great exercise and I just love water, and i'm a extreme extrovert so its great socialization too. However I live in a desert, have hypersomnia, and am a shut in. Oh well SWIMMINH hope you enjoyed it
 

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #347 on: April 13, 2015, 06:43:56 PM »
Damn mother took over computer for much longer than I expected -_-

Anycase I am case by case basis okay with GUCK stuff and I allow a chainmail bikini rules (I got PDF of it somewhere, it's just special armor which needs feat invested in it so you add penalties for foes attacks vs you because your near naked). Anycase I approve the kiss metamagic feat.

Anycase any rules presented for sex in GUCK or BoEF are not used, we use my EP system as everyone uses them.

Offline schnookums

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #348 on: April 14, 2015, 12:09:11 AM »
Okay, thanks to one of the Vestiges I'm going to have access to crafting feats but not necessarily spells. What's the easiest way to get around that?

Online Kunoichi

Re: Seeking Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD, lots custom rules)
« Reply #349 on: April 14, 2015, 12:11:56 AM »
In this game, you're allowed to make Spellcraft checks with a DC equivalent to the spell you need to emulate, though each spellcraft check beyond the first takes a stacking -5 penalty, so those checks will get progressively harder to make.