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Author Topic: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)  (Read 1439 times)

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Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #50 on: April 05, 2015, 11:22:38 AM »
Wow.

I hate to say this but a: you're cherry picking your information and b: most of it is wrong.

Meat is crucial to human nutrition.  B12 is a critical vitamin that we cannot manufacture in our own body and cannot be found naturally in any plant.  It is found, naturally, in meat.  So, for as long as we have been homo sapiens, we have been eating meat in some quantity.  Nowadays, it can be artificially made but that's part of the big pharma you seem to dislike so much.

Dr. Esselstyn, whom you use almost exclusively to prove your wrong point is an MD, he is not a 'leading biochemist' or a leading anything.  He's a surgeon.  He is also making his living off of selling his diet via books, speaking engagements, items and so on – so he's got a financial interest in this diet you're peddling for him.

I don't know what your kick is about Japan but the Japanese have always been meat eaters. They eat eggs, fish, an assortment of fowl and so on.  They don't eat much milk or cheese because of a minor genetic difference that means they can't digest it well.

The modern Western diet is shitty, it contributes to a lot of suffering and death.  That doesn't mean that there's some miracle single cure (like eating no meat) to solve it.

To be honest I'm so flabbergasted by this statement that I had to point it out especially:

A fact is something that is true regardless of what you, me or anyone else believes. Such as, for example, the Earth moves around the Sun.  For centuries, humans believed the Sun rotated around the Earth and they had all sorts of charts and graphs and stories that proved it.  However the Earth continued to orbit the Sun, regardless of what anyone believed.  It is a fact.

Some other facts:
*B12 is a critical human nutrient, found only in meat.
*Dr. Esseltyn is an MD, not a leading biochemist (the wiki link you use states that, for god's sake!)
*The human digestive system is set up to digest both plant and meat – pure herbivores have a very different digestive system than ours, same for obligate carnivores.  We can digest almost all animals we can stuff into our mouth, there are a great many plants we can't eat.

I'm glad the diet works for you – though, frankly, one of the side effects seems to be fanaticism.  That doesn't make it a universal truth.
How can you state any of these things as fact, without any factual evidence to support these claims? Where's the evidence? Have you looked into it, and done your own research? I have. I took a Physiological, and Anatomy class. I've taken biology. I'm an avid of reader of the sciences, and history, and culture. I've done research. I've looked at graph charts, and historical displacements in healthcare, and conditioning. Nothing that you say can be factually grounded by any research, and observation. I've posted nearly a dozen videos backing up my claims of a diet for sustaining the human condition. Without anything to back up what you are saying, how do I know that you're not lying?

If someone see's a ghost, and they tell you about it. And you come and tell me about it. How am I suppose to believe you? Where is the evidence? There's no facts backing anything that you're talking about. They're just a bunch of opinions. He-said, she-said, butterfly affect topic. Anything with controversial meaning in it's description, is just an opinion. You can't name it a fact, just because you, and or anyone else says it is. Including myself.

Are you serious about the Japanese not being able to process milk, and cheese? Where did you learn this from? Please. Forward me the article. I would love to read it. Because, you know what? I am Japanese. And my parents are Japanese. My family is Japanese. And I have never heard any of them complain about a discomfort while consuming those products. Yes, I have drunk plenty of milk. I have ate plenty of cheese. I have seen my relatives consume much of both products, without so much as a burp. I have Japanese friends! Who also consume plenty of dairy products. Personal experience, from something that you found on Internet is quite the contrast.

I heard about a man who thought he created the cure for heart-disease, by continuing his meat-based, McDonalds diet. He felt so passionately about it, that he died some years later of a heart-attack. Just because you believe in something so blindly, as you stated, does not make it true.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #51 on: April 05, 2015, 11:28:14 AM »
My friend, you may be of Japanese decent, however, your knowledge of Japan itself if rather...shall we say...um...faulty! Okinawa is not the second largest city in Japan, it is the largest island in the Ryukyu Islands that make up the southernmost region of Japan. Osaka is the second largest city in Japan. The population of Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands are noted for being long lived and the largest factor in that has been determined to be genetic with the simplicity of their diet contributing to it. A simple diet is certainly a healthy diet, however, that diet needs to be balanced and of course fit the individual. Traditional diets in the Japanese Archipelago varied greatly by region and culture and time period. The Jomon Culture did not cultivate rice and their major carbohydrate source were chestnuts, they also were hunters and gathered wild plants. Rice farming was introduced by the Yayoi Culture and that radically changed much of ancient Japan's diet. The Emishi and Ainu ate differently than the Yamato Japanese and the Ainu and Ryukyuan of today have different diets that mainstream Japanese people do. Modern Japanese diets varies by region and has been heavily influenced by other Asian and Western cuisine. However, all of that aside, the rice based traditional Yamato Japanese diet of at least the Edo period that lasted into near modern times was lacking in proteins and fats that led to a smaller population that suffered from various vitamin deficiencies and that is known fact. However, most non-modern staple diets did/do lack certain vitamins and such and is why modern nutritionists talk about a BALANCED diet.
Of course vegetarian or vegan is a perfectly valid choice and if it works for someone, more power to em! However, I am a 6'1 (184 CM) 175 pound (80 kilo) man who eats animal protein five meals a day as part of a healthy diet and I do just fine. Is the average modern American diet awful? HELL YES! But it isn't the meat that people consume but the horrible empty calories of sugar and fats in processed foods and bad diet choices of eating way too much of the wrong kinds of food. Anyway, my entering into this conversation was largely to point out that wherever you got it from, you have a very misguided understanding of traditional and modern diets in the Japanese Archipelago.
I'll admit to my mistake of Okinawa. But, sadly. You have not convinced me of anything. I can easily dismiss it as untrue, as you are doing the same. And, actually. You have refined my statements.

Offline Tsenta

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #52 on: April 05, 2015, 11:35:55 AM »
Aren't some areas of Japan notorious for seafood? And have been for centuries?  You really can't attribute meat alone to the decline in overall world health.

You need to take other factors into consideration: More sedentary lifestyles, more easily available resources such as salt and sugar (both bad for you, both are absolutely adored in Japan). To actively blame meat solely for the health decline is just...wrong. O-o;

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #53 on: April 05, 2015, 11:50:43 AM »
Unless it was a migration, they were nomadic in -areas-, or in the Stone Age, sometimes sedentary and collected wild grains, vegetables and meat to survive. they ate what they could get. Meat provides a lot of needed nutrients and is in a fairly easy to get package. In the northernmost regions, the people who would become the Inuit and Eskimo people tended to subside on mainly meat because that is what they could get, and they were pretty bloody healthy. Fat, but healthy. And it worked for them.

 Then you will always dismiss -any- claims that you don't agree with. What you seem to be failing to understand is that your argument is fairly confrontational and very dismissive of any claims you personally don't agree with. You see meat, any meat, as bad and harmful. Others here have dropped links that prove otherwise, get you are ignoring it because it doesn't fit your personal believe that meat = bad/unhealthy.

 Aahh.. you're still ranting. Not debating or even really discussing when you're ignoring what others are saying and dismissing their evidence as mere opinion, while holding you your opinion as solid scientific fact (If I and others looked, we could find facts just as solid to argue against what your claimaing)There are other scientists, people who are trained biochemists, nutritionists and dieticians, who will say the opposite of what you are saying, and backup their claims WITH facts. Facts you are calling 'opinions' and thereby dismissing. Just because millions of people believe Dr. Esselstynn's research, doesn't necessarily mean that it is right. Other millions believe that eating meat, in moderation is also right and correct. Numbers of believers alone does not make someone right. Is Dr. Esslstynn's work peer reviewed and accepted and passed by the medical journals?

 As for the diet, remember, that as Kuroneko said, that what works for you, will not necessarily work for others. Everyone's genetics is different and the same diet will not always work for everyone else. What works for you will not necessarily work for me. I like meat and probably eat too much of it, but I could eat it in moderation (beef, pork, chicken and sometimes fish (I dislike fish, bleh), but it's not going to be anymore healthy for me than a strictly vegan diet).

 Pfft. Corn on the cob does the same thing. Passes through relatively undigested, but like the meat, it passes through.

 Aahhh. No. we discovered meat a loooong time ago and have been eating it for tens to hundreds of thousands of years. It has never been a recent discovery and we were solely herbivores until just before civilization developed (there are records and findings of humans eating meat back into the last Ice Age. So for 25,000+ years we have been eating meat, as well as grains and vegetables, as a species and it hasn't been harmful to us).

 Large cattle, you mean western cattle? Might the drop of Japanese male death also be the introduction of better health care too? You seem very fixed on the Japanese being fully healthy and fit before the west ever opened up the nation.
No one has dropped me any sort of links that dismiss, and even back up their claims of dismissing my statements. No one has provided any factual evidence, links, articles, videos, and so on, of the sort. All of those links, and videos are ones that I have linked. And you're still dismissing anything that I have said. You are no better than I am, I have stated, numerous times, that my opinions are just as that, just opinions. I have never called one of my statements as an actual event, and/or true. I see it the way it is.

Dr. Esselstyn's research is backed, reviewed, and accepted by ex-president Bill Clinton. A man who can receive the best medical healthcare the world can offer. It doesn't get much better than that.

I stated that we discovered fire nearly 50,000 years ago, at the beginning of our current evolutionary state. I stated that sometime after this discovery, we started to consume meat.

You're placing everything I have said out of context, and displacing it.

I meant that during the introduction of large cattle farms, being transported to the country of Japan, the average death-ratio has increased. Wrong word. I apologize for that.

Lord Gilgamesh. He died at the age of 126 sometime between the years 2800, to 2500 BCE.

http://www.shmoop.com/gilgamesh/food-symbol.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh

Name one person in history who had lived, and died, at the age 126 on a purely meat-based diet

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #54 on: April 05, 2015, 12:02:32 PM »
If we admit that eating too much meat is bad for people, would you please concede that Dr. Esselstyn is not actually a biochemist, much less "the leading biochemist in the world"? Honestly, every time you use that phrase it's making my teeth grate.

This isn't a matter of opinion, it's just a matter of accurately citing a man's qualifications. Dr. Esselstyn is an MD. He's not a biochemist. Those are two different things. He's no more a biochemist than he is a NASCAR driver, or a Catholic priest, or a salamander.

When you resist being corrected on the small stuff, it makes it difficult to want to engage with you on the bigger issues, because you're demonstrating an unwillingness to listen and converse rather than preach.
No, I will not concede many of the statements that I have made in any of my arguments. Everyone that I have talked to in this argument has already admitted that eating too much meat is an unhealthy diet. So that statement is useless. And I forebode you to grate your teeth, all that you wish. If you are unable to budge from any of the idealistic that you hold so precious, and dear to you. Than why would I give you the pleasure?

Dr. Esselstyn labels himself as a biochemist, he went to school for it. He studied in the Army to be a surgeon. He studied in college to be an M.D.

I see no one else willing to demonstrate a willingness to listen to anything that I have said, at all? So why are you pushing what you believe to be true, on me? People came to this thread with the willingness to argue, at their own discretion. I did not go out and find them. You, and everyone else came into this thread came to find me. And argue against the ideals that I believe in. Why are you so different?

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #55 on: April 05, 2015, 12:03:00 PM »
Bill Clinton, the man who ate himself into a triple bypass. :\

Offline Oniya

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Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #56 on: April 05, 2015, 12:05:53 PM »
If you were presenting your opinion in any way other than blatantly hostile, people would possibly be more receptive.

Okay - factual evidence time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20479151 - Red and processed meat consumption and risk of incident coronary heart disease, stroke, and diabetes mellitus: a systematic review and meta-analysis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19678968 - Relationship between animal protein intake and muscle mass index in healthy women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/159772 - Effect of a vegetarian diet and dexamethasone on plasma prolactin, testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone in men and women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21102327 - Dietary protein and skeletal health: a review of recent human research.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21540747 - Meta-analysis of prospective studies of red meat consumption and colorectal cancer.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:07:26 PM by Oniya »

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #57 on: April 05, 2015, 12:11:32 PM »
I am not looking to push my opinions on you - merely get you to look at the way you are conveying your own.  There are people today who believe that the Earth is a flat disc.  There are also people today who believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.  By your own statement, that means that the idea that the Earth is an oblate spheroid that is many millions of years old is no longer a 'fact', but an 'opinion'.
The Earth being flat is no longer a controversial concept. We've entered outer space, and looked down on ourselves. We know what the Earth looks like. Just like how we know what we look like to ourselves. I am not going to convince someone that the world is only 6,000 years old, to billions of years old. Because people so-lovingly enjoy what they know, and everything that know about their knowledge. You can't come across as knowledgeable, if the knowledge is unwarranted. I expect them to come here and convey their knowledge, against mine. Or it wouldn't be a controversial topic. And you, and everyone else has came here to dispute against what I know. Or else there would be no other reason to be in this thread.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #58 on: April 05, 2015, 12:14:06 PM »
And you, and everyone else has came here to dispute against what I know. Or else there would be no other reason to be in this thread.

Actually, I'm just here because I quite like watching trainwrecks.

Offline Joel

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2015, 12:16:50 PM »
Actually, I'm just here because I quite like watching trainwrecks.

I also feel... fremdschämen

Offline Ebb

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2015, 12:18:32 PM »
No, I will not concede many of the statements that I have made in any of my arguments. Everyone that I have talked to in this argument has already admitted that eating too much meat is an unhealthy diet. So that statement is useless. And I forebode you to grate your teeth, all that you wish. If you are unable to budge from any of the idealistic that you hold so precious, and dear to you. Than why would I give you the pleasure?

Dr. Esselstyn labels himself as a biochemist, he went to school for it. He studied in the Army to be a surgeon. He studied in college to be an M.D.

I see no one else willing to demonstrate a willingness to listen to anything that I have said, at all? So why are you pushing what you believe to be true, on me? People came to this thread with the willingness to argue, at their own discretion. I did not go out and find them. You, and everyone else came into this thread came to find me. And argue against the ideals that I believe in. Why are you so different?

Okay. I hear you. And I completely understand if you're feeling a little ganged up on here in this thread. And to be fair about it, you didn't ask for this; you initially posted in a different forum, and it got transferred over here once discussion started.

Please take the following advice as being well-intentioned. You're new to Elliquiy, and I'm guessing that you didn't find this place primarily because you were looking for a discussion about diet. If you're like most folks, you found the site after searching for "adult roleplay" or something similar. This forum (PROC) is just one small part of Elliquiy, and to be perfectly frank it's not the most friendly part. I think by spending your time and energy here you might end up with a skewed picture of what Elliquiy is, which is (generally speaking) a really interesting and mutually supportive community. You're a new member, and I'd hate for you to get an impression of Elliquiy based mostly on the PROC forum.

So I'd like to encourage you to take some time to read and post in some of the other corners of our site. Look into the different roleplay opportunities (https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?board=361.0). Or some of the socializing threads. (https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?board=363.0) or (https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?board=387.0). Maybe read through some of the stories that others have created together and archived here. (https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?board=426.0).

It's clear and understandable that the current topic is one that you feel very passionately about, and passion is good. But give us at Elliquiy a chance to meet other sides of you, and let us put our best foot forward as well. Which, again, is not really the Politics, Religion and Other Controversies forum. Again, not your fault -- your call kind of got transferred over here. This thread will always be here to come back to.

And if you do decide to follow my advice and prowl around elsewhere, then I'd also like to request that others let the matter drop for a bit until TheChronicles decides to return to the discussion. It's a hard thing to temporarily walk away from a discussion in which you're emotionally invested, so let's be supportive.

Best wishes.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2015, 12:19:34 PM »
Actually, I have no desire to force my beliefs -any of my beliefs- on you. I posted in this thread to correct you on your willingness to flat out ignore facts. Primarily historical facts since you completely neglected the fact that the Great Depression greatly changed how people ate - not some belief that meat was suddenly bad for them.

Again, you are skewing things to fit what you want to believe. This is a pointless thread for discussion because we cannot discuss anything with you. In your mind you are right, we are wrong and if we dont accept what you say as truth and fact, we are arguing with you.

And in your mind I'm wrong, and while you're right. I've stated many times, that most of the things that I have stated are opinionated. But backed by current knowledge.

If you blindly follow someone with the hopes of treats, but never seem to get there. How am I supposed to believe the one that I am following? Not one person has accepted anything that I have said, including yourself. Which makes me wrong. How is that justifiable?

People have been disputing the nutritional facts of meat, for hundreds of years. There are many studies that dispute the properties of meat, for many years. If you look, there are plenty of studies all over the Internet.

Offline Blythe

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2015, 12:21:21 PM »
A fact, cannot be a fact, if someone else thinks it incorrect.

No. The above quote is not a statement grounded in reality.

That is not how facts work. A fact would be correct independent of opinion.

It's fine to hold what beliefs you wish. But don't go making blatantly false statements like this, please.

This thread is also going in complete circles. Time for a break.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:22:39 PM by Blythe »