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Author Topic: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)  (Read 1444 times)

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Offline Zakharra

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2015, 10:10:16 PM »
  You seem to be very passionate about this (not a bad thing, usually), but you also seem to be fairly confrontational and pushing the idea that meat, any meat, is  -always- bad for you and evil.  Don't take this the wrong way, but please try to tone it down? You're doing the internet midnight televangelist version of shoving your face into ours and shouting 'meat is EVIL!!!! *shakes hands for emphasis*'.  It's not helping your argument.

 As for your argument, I and others can find just as many scientific papers proving that meat can/is an essential part of the diet and helps make a complete meal that supplies all of thew dietary needs a person could want. Over consumption of meat is bad, as is the over consumption of anything. It can be eaten safely, in moderation, and it won't harm you that much (no more than eating anything else will). The diet you're pushing might work well for some and you, but not necessarily for others. And meat eating can and is healthy, if done in moderation. We've eaten meat for tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years. We didn't just suddenly decide to pick it up when fire was discovered (if we had been purely herbivores before, how would our stomachs and intestines have been able to process meat then? It's not like we were like the horse and suddenly decided to start nomming on antelope for dinner). There is evolutionary evidence that we have been meat eaters for a very long time.

 You also seem to be flat out dismissing what others are saying about Japan that show a different view of Japan. I personally don't know a lot about nutrition, but I do know one thing, one sign of malnourishment is a short/small population. The Japanese have gotten taller, since their country was opened to the outside world. Noticeably so. And Japanese are still living a very long time (good health care is seeing to that, more people are living to see adulthood and not dying in childhood and such). Just as we in the West are living longer as well.

 

Offline Zakharra

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2015, 10:20:02 PM »
If you can't eat steak raw, than what good is it cooked? If we can't eat steak in large quantities, than what good is it in moderation? Every carnivore in the history of the world has developed an immune system against any disease, which may find itself into it's bloodstream. If humans were as evolved, as people say, to healthfully eat meat. Than we would have, also, developed an immune system against any known diseases, and viruses hidden inside raw meat. But we didn't. And we haven't. Raw meat is no more safe, than drinking acid. Cooked steak is no more safe than smoking cigarettes. But, only in 'moderation'.

  I got to say I disagree with the last part. Eating raw meat will, sooner than later, lead to several nasty diseases. That's why cooking it is recommended, so we can safely eat it and eating meat is a LOT safer than smoking cigarettes (not to mention it tastes much better. Meat is tasty).

 One thing you should consider in your argument, was it really possible to, without the use of agriculture to grow crops, possible to eat a totally vegan diet and survive on the plants that were just in the area you and your tribe lived in? What about when agriculture was discovered? Crops would have been limited to just what was in the area you lived in until trade routes, or invaders brought in new plants.  Meat is something that can easily sustain people and it something we are meant to eat as a species. We can now do without it because we know what plants to eat that can provide the necessary nutrients meat provides, but that wasn't exactly possible more than a hundred years ago or so because we didn't really know what was in foods nutritionally. Now we do.

 Apes... apes mostly eat plants and such, but they also eat bugs: grubs, ants, termites, beetles and the like are all equally edible and eaten, so they do eat meat.

Offline Dimir

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2015, 10:45:20 PM »
Not too related to the current discussion but would anyone agree with me that drinking a decent amount of water each day does good for the body's health? I drink around a bottle to a bottle and a half each day.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2015, 10:47:05 PM »
  I got to say I disagree with the last part. Eating raw meat will, sooner than later, lead to several nasty diseases. That's why cooking it is recommended, so we can safely eat it and eating meat is a LOT safer than smoking cigarettes (not to mention it tastes much better. Meat is tasty).

 One thing you should consider in your argument, was it really possible to, without the use of agriculture to grow crops, possible to eat a totally vegan diet and survive on the plants that were just in the area you and your tribe lived in? What about when agriculture was discovered? Crops would have been limited to just what was in the area you lived in until trade routes, or invaders brought in new plants.  Meat is something that can easily sustain people and it something we are meant to eat as a species. We can now do without it because we know what plants to eat that can provide the necessary nutrients meat provides, but that wasn't exactly possible more than a hundred years ago or so because we didn't really know what was in foods nutritionally. Now we do.

 Apes... apes mostly eat plants and such, but they also eat bugs: grubs, ants, termites, beetles and the like are all equally edible and eaten, so they do eat meat.
That's why humans were nomads for the better part of our history. We consume one area, and move on to another. Some might say that we are a virus, which I agree. We invade one area, and spread. We deplete the area of all it's resources, and then we find another.

If you were to smoke a cigarette a day, as opposed to eating one steak per day. I guarantee you will be no more healthier than that smoker will be.

Agriculture in America was a far bigger business, than cattle was. And, no. I would have to disagree. There are for more plants, than there are animals in the world. Edible plants are abundant at nearly every corner of the Earth, if you know how to look.

I think that the first humans developed gathering skills from instinct. We watched what other animals ate, and tried it. Do you think that we killing buffalo in the beginning of the first-era? Edible plants use to be far more abundant, than they are today. We have destroyed most of what was. A hundreds years ago was 1915. My Grandma would have been born 17 years later. They ate grains, and beans. With meats, and by-products once in a great while.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2015, 10:59:39 PM »
That's why humans were nomads for the better part of our history. We consume one area, and move on to another. Some might say that we are a virus, which I agree. We invade one area, and spread. We deplete the area of all it's resources, and then we find another.

If you were to smoke a cigarette a day, as opposed to eating one steak per day. I guarantee you will be no more healthier than that smoker will be.

Agriculture in America was a far bigger business, than cattle was. And, no. I would have to disagree. There are for more plants, than there are animals in the world. Edible plants are abundant at nearly every corner of the Earth, if you know how to look.

I think that the first humans developed gathering skills from instinct. We watched what other animals ate, and tried it. Do you think that we killing buffalo in the beginning of the first-era? Edible plants use to be far more abundant, than they are today. We have destroyed most of what was. A hundreds years ago was 1915. My Grandma would have been born 17 years later. They ate grains, and beans. With meats, and by-products once in a great while.

Bolded the part I want to discuss.

You do realize that 1929 was the beginning of the Great Depression, yes? Many, many, many, many thousands did not eat meat on any sort of regular basis during that time period. No one could afford it. That also coincided with the Great Dust Bowl of the "dirty thirties".

So, please. Do not ignore important facts when trying to shove your eating regime down all of our throats. There was a very large reason your grandmother did not eat meat regularly. Same reason my grandmother didn't. It wasn't readily available nor affordable.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2015, 11:02:55 PM »
  You seem to be very passionate about this (not a bad thing, usually), but you also seem to be fairly confrontational and pushing the idea that meat, any meat, is  -always- bad for you and evil.  Don't take this the wrong way, but please try to tone it down? You're doing the internet midnight televangelist version of shoving your face into ours and shouting 'meat is EVIL!!!! *shakes hands for emphasis*'.  It's not helping your argument.

 As for your argument, I and others can find just as many scientific papers proving that meat can/is an essential part of the diet and helps make a complete meal that supplies all of thew dietary needs a person could want. Over consumption of meat is bad, as is the over consumption of anything. It can be eaten safely, in moderation, and it won't harm you that much (no more than eating anything else will). The diet you're pushing might work well for some and you, but not necessarily for others. And meat eating can and is healthy, if done in moderation. We've eaten meat for tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years. We didn't just suddenly decide to pick it up when fire was discovered (if we had been purely herbivores before, how would our stomachs and intestines have been able to process meat then? It's not like we were like the horse and suddenly decided to start nomming on antelope for dinner). There is evolutionary evidence that we have been meat eaters for a very long time.

 You also seem to be flat out dismissing what others are saying about Japan that show a different view of Japan. I personally don't know a lot about nutrition, but I do know one thing, one sign of malnourishment is a short/small population. The Japanese have gotten taller, since their country was opened to the outside world. Noticeably so. And Japanese are still living a very long time (good health care is seeing to that, more people are living to see adulthood and not dying in childhood and such). Just as we in the West are living longer as well.
There is also scientific proof that says meat is unable to fully process it's products, including the fat. Animal fat can sit in the human digestive system for many hours, before it is fully digested into the system. And in some cases, ferment inside of the digest system, which leads to acid reflux. That doesn't sound very healthy.

We discovered meat, when there was nothing else for us to consume. So we fed on the livestock, and in some cases, ourselves. The average death-rate of the Japanese male has dropped increasingly, since the introduction of large cattle into their country.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:20:30 PM by TheChronicles »

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2015, 11:04:36 PM »
Not too related to the current discussion but would anyone agree with me that drinking a decent amount of water each day does good for the body's health? I drink around a bottle to a bottle and a half each day.
So, about 30 fluid oz. per day? Or a quart. I usually drink around 2 quarts a day. But if you manage a healthy diet, whatever it may be. Sounds good to me.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:24:23 PM by TheChronicles »

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2015, 11:19:47 PM »
Bolded the part I want to discuss.

You do realize that 1929 was the beginning of the Great Depression, yes? Many, many, many, many thousands did not eat meat on any sort of regular basis during that time period. No one could afford it. That also coincided with the Great Dust Bowl of the "dirty thirties".

So, please. Do not ignore important facts when trying to shove your eating regime down all of our throats. There was a very large reason your grandmother did not eat meat regularly. Same reason my grandmother didn't. It wasn't readily available nor affordable.

Well, this was a rant. That had been moved. And I am not 'shoving it', into their faces. If they wish to discuss it with me, than I shall use all of my knowledge, that I have learned, to go against what they have said. I am no more shoving it into their faces, as they are shoving their knowledge into mine.

My father ate a pure grain, and bean diet for the better part of his childhood, and he was a surfer, and cross-country runner. Granted, they didn't have much money to afford meat products. But that's the point I'm trying to get across. You don't need meat to survive.

This is what the 'rant', is about. You don't need meat, it's harmful to the body. It kills. And if people wish to leave a post, and discuss what knowledge they know about it with me, than they may as they wish, but I'm going to put my say in, as well.


Offline Iniquitous

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2015, 11:23:43 PM »
Still stands that you ignore facts that do not support what you want. Eating meat is not poisoning us. In moderation it is good for us. You can argue it all you want, but no offense, I will go by what my personal doctor says than someone I don't know from the internet.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2015, 11:41:05 PM »
Still stands that you ignore facts that do not support what you want. Eating meat is not poisoning us. In moderation it is good for us. You can argue it all you want, but no offense, I will go by what my personal doctor says than someone I don't know from the internet.
If you watch Dr. Esselstyn's research seminar, which I posted. The leading biochemist in the world. He backs up pure evidence of his research. Along with his team, and subjects. Along with other videos, that I had posted in this thread. If you wish to watch those. My dad got ripped on a lean, low carb diet in his 40's. He's tried every diet under the sun, I know. And I saw how strongly he felt about it. So I changed, too. I, also got ripped on a paleo diet. But I now believe, that it isn't the way forward.

While traveling the East-coast, I have eaten every burger there is. From Baltiomore, MD. To Miami Beach, FL. I have probably eaten over 1,000 burgers, and every other kind of meat product you can think of. I once ate a 32oz. steak by myself, in a little under an hour. I know how to eat meat. My joints would stiffen, and crack. I was developing muscular dystrophy. I use to weigh 115lbs, and now weighing nearly 120lbs.

But this is factual opinion.

And this was a rant. Now a controversial, discussion.

The food that we eat shouldn't poison us. It is unnatural.

Yes. I am ignoring most of these 'opinions'. Not facts. Because I view them, and millions of other people also view them untrue. A fact, cannot be a fact, if someone else thinks it incorrect. It is just an opinion. Most of what I have said are opinions, as I quoted. "Most of what we think of a good dietary plan, is hypothetical science, and history." If you state to me that eating meat-based products isn't harmful to the human condition, than you are pushing your 'opinions' on me, just as you say I am. That's the crossroad.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 12:00:10 AM by TheChronicles »

Offline Kuroneko

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2015, 12:16:08 AM »
I'm just going to put this right here http://www.eufic.org/article/en/artid/orthorexia-nervosa/ . I know that I've been guilty of this from time to time in the past, and I have quite a few friends that fall into this. Now, with all my food allergies and sensitivities, it can be challenging just to find foods that I won't react to. Eating healthy just happens naturally since processed food is out of the question, lol. But consequently, being vegan is never going to be an option for me.


But this is factual opinion.

And this was a rant. Now a controversial, discussion.

The food that we eat shouldn't poison us. It is unnatural.

The way you eat is what works for you, and that's great. I'm happy for you, and your father. But you have a unique genetic profile. Everyone else has their own. What works for you and makes you feel healthy - and happy - may not be what works for someone else. Even if you disagree with how other people choose to eat, you have to respect their choices.

For anyone interested in an in depth discussion of the role genetics play in personalized nutrition, I highly recommend The Plant Plus Diet Solution by by Joan Borysenko Ph.D. As I work with new doctors on addressing my fibro and Lyme's disease, I'm seeing a lot of what is discussed in the book showing up in my bloodwork. It's been a fascinating read.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2015, 12:17:45 AM »
  You seem to be very passionate about this (not a bad thing, usually), but you also seem to be fairly confrontational and pushing the idea that meat, any meat, is  -always- bad for you and evil.  Don't take this the wrong way, but please try to tone it down? You're doing the internet midnight televangelist version of shoving your face into ours and shouting 'meat is EVIL!!!! *shakes hands for emphasis*'.  It's not helping your argument.

 As for your argument, I and others can find just as many scientific papers proving that meat can/is an essential part of the diet and helps make a complete meal that supplies all of thew dietary needs a person could want. Over consumption of meat is bad, as is the over consumption of anything. It can be eaten safely, in moderation, and it won't harm you that much (no more than eating anything else will). The diet you're pushing might work well for some and you, but not necessarily for others. And meat eating can and is healthy, if done in moderation. We've eaten meat for tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of years. We didn't just suddenly decide to pick it up when fire was discovered (if we had been purely herbivores before, how would our stomachs and intestines have been able to process meat then? It's not like we were like the horse and suddenly decided to start nomming on antelope for dinner). There is evolutionary evidence that we have been meat eaters for a very long time.

 You also seem to be flat out dismissing what others are saying about Japan that show a different view of Japan. I personally don't know a lot about nutrition, but I do know one thing, one sign of malnourishment is a short/small population. The Japanese have gotten taller, since their country was opened to the outside world. Noticeably so. And Japanese are still living a very long time (good health care is seeing to that, more people are living to see adulthood and not dying in childhood and such). Just as we in the West are living longer as well.
Nothing would help my argument, if you believe it untrue. You can't change human nature.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2015, 12:31:59 AM »
I'm just going to put this right here http://www.eufic.org/article/en/artid/orthorexia-nervosa/ . I know that I've been guilty of this from time to time in the past, and I have quite a few friends that fall into this. Now, with all my food allergies and sensitivities, it can be challenging just to find foods that I won't react to. Eating healthy just happens naturally since processed food is out of the question, lol. But consequently, being vegan is never going to be an option for me.

The way you eat is what works for you, and that's great. I'm happy for you, and your father. But you have a unique genetic profile. Everyone else has their own. What works for you and makes you feel healthy - and happy - may not be what works for someone else. Even if you disagree with how other people choose to eat, you have to respect their choices.

For anyone interested in an in depth discussion of the role genetics play in personalized nutrition, I highly recommend The Plant Plus Diet Solution by by Joan Borysenko Ph.D. As I work with new doctors on addressing my fibro and Lyme's disease, I'm seeing a lot of what is discussed in the book showing up in my bloodwork. It's been a fascinating read.
Research can flow both way. One approving it, another disproving it. In most, I believe it is left up to the individual to make that choice. Hypothetical opinions, and theories.

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Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #38 on: April 05, 2015, 12:34:56 AM »
If you can't eat steak raw, than what good is it cooked? If we can't eat steak in large quantities, than what good is it in moderation? Every carnivore in the history of the world has developed an immune system against any disease, which may find itself into it's bloodstream. If humans were as evolved, as people say, to healthfully eat meat. Than we would have, also, developed an immune system against any known diseases, and viruses hidden inside raw meat. But we didn't. And we haven't. Raw meat is no more safe, than drinking acid. Cooked steak is no more safe than smoking cigarettes. But, only in 'moderation'.

You agreed with Dimir's post here:
Not too related to the current discussion but would anyone agree with me that drinking a decent amount of water each day does good for the body's health? I drink around a bottle to a bottle and a half each day.

It is a scientifically proven fact that water - consumed in large quantities - can be fatal.

So.  Taking your statement above, I would ask you this: 'If we can't drink water in large quantities, than what good is it in moderation?'

Offline Kuroneko

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2015, 12:57:12 AM »
Research can flow both way. One approving it, another disproving it. In most, I believe it is left up to the individual to make that choice. Hypothetical opinions, and theories.

As long as you agree that it also applies to the research, hypothetical opinions and theories that you've posted - and that you actually allow all of us engaging in the conversation to make that choice for ourselves rather than trying to convince everyone in the thread that our point of view is incorrect simply because it's different than yours.

Offline BitterSweet

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2015, 12:59:44 AM »
Wow.

I hate to say this but a: you're cherry picking your information and b: most of it is wrong.

Meat is crucial to human nutrition.  B12 is a critical vitamin that we cannot manufacture in our own body and cannot be found naturally in any plant.  It is found, naturally, in meat.  So, for as long as we have been homo sapiens, we have been eating meat in some quantity.  Nowadays, it can be artificially made but that's part of the big pharma you seem to dislike so much.

Dr. Esselstyn, whom you use almost exclusively to prove your wrong point is an MD, he is not a 'leading biochemist' or a leading anything.  He's a surgeon.  He is also making his living off of selling his diet via books, speaking engagements, items and so on so he's got a financial interest in this diet you're peddling for him.

I don't know what your kick is about Japan but the Japanese have always been meat eaters. They eat eggs, fish, an assortment of fowl and so on.  They don't eat much milk or cheese because of a minor genetic difference that means they can't digest it well.

The modern Western diet is shitty, it contributes to a lot of suffering and death.  That doesn't mean that there's some miracle single cure (like eating no meat) to solve it.

To be honest I'm so flabbergasted by this statement that I had to point it out especially:

Quote
I am ignoring most of these 'opinions'. Not facts. Because I view them, and millions of other people also view them untrue. A fact, cannot be a fact, if someone else thinks it incorrect.

A fact is something that is true regardless of what you, me or anyone else believes. Such as, for example, the Earth moves around the Sun.  For centuries, humans believed the Sun rotated around the Earth and they had all sorts of charts and graphs and stories that proved it.  However the Earth continued to orbit the Sun, regardless of what anyone believed.  It is a fact.

Some other facts:
*B12 is a critical human nutrient, found only in meat.
*Dr. Esseltyn is an MD, not a leading biochemist (the wiki link you use states that, for god's sake!)
*The human digestive system is set up to digest both plant and meat pure herbivores have a very different digestive system than ours, same for obligate carnivores.  We can digest almost all animals we can stuff into our mouth, there are a great many plants we can't eat.

I'm glad the diet works for you though, frankly, one of the side effects seems to be fanaticism.  That doesn't make it a universal truth.

Offline Gadifriald

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #41 on: April 05, 2015, 01:16:58 AM »
And there are many scientific facts that point against the Paleo diet plan. Some dating back hundreds of years, while we were still a skinny-nation. I'd like to use my iguana quote, again. If you feed an iguana, which will eat almost anything. Just like humans. The meat-eating iguana will get bigger, than the herbivore iguana. But it will be lazy, weak, and diseased with gout. While smaller, the herbivore iguana, is bright-colored, vibrant, and strong. I'd also like to state that iguana's only have on stomach. Do you know who else develops gout from a carnivore diet? Humans. How is that explained. How do you explain the large peak in heart-disease, and cancer. We have to eat meat as apart of our dietary plan, but it has to slowly poison, and kill us in the process?

If you can't eat steak raw, than what good is it cooked? If we can't eat steak in large quantities, than what good is it in moderation? Every carnivore in the history of the world has developed an immune system against any disease, which may find itself into it's bloodstream. If humans were as evolved, as people say, to healthfully eat meat. Than we would have, also, developed an immune system against any known diseases, and viruses hidden inside raw meat. But we didn't. And we haven't. Raw meat is no more safe, than drinking acid. Cooked steak is no more safe than smoking cigarettes. But, only in 'moderation'.

Okinawa is the second-largest city within the nation of Japan. What's your point? Hard to live that long on a malnourished diet, wouldn't you say? Actually, hard to live any amount of years on a malnourished diet. How exactly were the Japanese malnourished, again? One of the biggest, strongest empires of the world, thousands of wars, dating back thousands of years. The most elite close-combat, and tactical fighting force in the history of the world. Would be a little hard to achieve that on a malnourished diet, wouldn't it? Not enough oxygen, and nutrients to the brain. How did they even find the time to be an elite tactical fighting-force? How did they find the strength, in their malnourished bones, and muscles to decapitate someone's head, limbs, and even push one of their swords straight through someone's gut? It's quit hard to stab someone, did you know that. Muscle-tissue is a very dense, and elastic product of the human body. It's hard to cut through it, with just any blunt instrument. Not to mention their armor, which was also very state-of-the-art.

Even with Japan's state-of-the-art, slicing-machines, that they say could slice right through steel? Which reminds me, how exactly did they create these advanced combat-efficient swords, on a malnourished diet? If you're malnourished, that also means you're at the beginning stage of dehydration, and while making a weapon of any kind, takes a lot of work, and smoke blown into your face. While you breath in smoke, it deprives your body of oxygen, nutrients, and hydration. So I imagine many people died while making these swords?

Did you know Japan missed the industrial age, during the second World War? "Dang!" But they still came out with the most efficiently-made war ships the world has ever seen. Their tactics of war were uncanny, and their fleet was nearly indestructible. Until we destroyed it, of course. During, which, at this time. Japan was still a very isolated country. Homogenous. Still are. They didn't see much beef, and still didn't eat much pork, and chicken. How was all this done on a malnourished diet?

They say that during the age of Samurai, men were built like tigers. But they weren't receiving enough animal by-products to be efficient fighters. They carried around 50lbs of armor, and the ability to cut a man clean in half, in his armor, while still in that suit. I would say that's very hard to do, while malnourished, from a famish of animal by-products?
My friend, you may be of Japanese decent, however, your knowledge of Japan itself if rather...shall we say...um...faulty! Okinawa is not the second largest city in Japan, it is the largest island in the Ryukyu Islands that make up the southernmost region of Japan. Osaka is the second largest city in Japan. The population of Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands are noted for being long lived and the largest factor in that has been determined to be genetic with the simplicity of their diet contributing to it. A simple diet is certainly a healthy diet, however, that diet needs to be balanced and of course fit the individual. Traditional diets in the Japanese Archipelago varied greatly by region and culture and time period. The Jomon Culture did not cultivate rice and their major carbohydrate source were chestnuts, they also were hunters and gathered wild plants. Rice farming was introduced by the Yayoi Culture and that radically changed much of ancient Japan's diet. The Emishi and Ainu ate differently than the Yamato Japanese and the Ainu and Ryukyuan of today have different diets that mainstream Japanese people do. Modern Japanese diets varies by region and has been heavily influenced by other Asian and Western cuisine. However, all of that aside, the rice based traditional Yamato Japanese diet of at least the Edo period that lasted into near modern times was lacking in proteins and fats that led to a smaller population that suffered from various vitamin deficiencies and that is known fact. However, most non-modern staple diets did/do lack certain vitamins and such and is why modern nutritionists talk about a BALANCED diet.
Of course vegetarian or vegan is a perfectly valid choice and if it works for someone, more power to em! However, I am a 6'1 (184 CM) 175 pound (80 kilo) man who eats animal protein five meals a day as part of a healthy diet and I do just fine. Is the average modern American diet awful? HELL YES! But it isn't the meat that people consume but the horrible empty calories of sugar and fats in processed foods and bad diet choices of eating way too much of the wrong kinds of food. Anyway, my entering into this conversation was largely to point out that wherever you got it from, you have a very misguided understanding of traditional and modern diets in the Japanese Archipelago.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 01:30:03 AM by Gadifriald »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #42 on: April 05, 2015, 01:18:21 AM »
That's why humans were nomads for the better part of our history. We consume one area, and move on to another. Some might say that we are a virus, which I agree. We invade one area, and spread. We deplete the area of all it's resources, and then we find another.

If you were to smoke a cigarette a day, as opposed to eating one steak per day. I guarantee you will be no more healthier than that smoker will be.

Agriculture in America was a far bigger business, than cattle was. And, no. I would have to disagree. There are for more plants, than there are animals in the world. Edible plants are abundant at nearly every corner of the Earth, if you know how to look.

I think that the first humans developed gathering skills from instinct. We watched what other animals ate, and tried it. Do you think that we killing buffalo in the beginning of the first-era? Edible plants use to be far more abundant, than they are today. We have destroyed most of what was. A hundreds years ago was 1915. My Grandma would have been born 17 years later. They ate grains, and beans. With meats, and by-products once in a great while.

 Unless it was a migration, they were nomadic in -areas-, or in the Stone Age, sometimes sedentary and collected wild grains, vegetables and meat to survive. they ate what they could get. Meat provides a lot of needed nutrients and is in a fairly easy to get package. In the northernmost regions, the people who would become the Inuit and Eskimo people tended to subside on mainly meat because that is what they could get, and they were pretty bloody healthy. Fat, but healthy. And it worked for them.

Nothing would help my argument, if you believe it untrue. You can't change human nature.

 Then you will always dismiss -any- claims that you don't agree with. What you seem to be failing to understand is that your argument is fairly confrontational and very dismissive of any claims you personally don't agree with. You see meat, any meat, as bad and harmful. Others here have dropped links that prove otherwise, get you are ignoring it because it doesn't fit your personal believe that meat = bad/unhealthy.

If you watch Dr. Esselstyn's research seminar, which I posted. The leading biochemist in the world. He backs up pure evidence of his research. Along with his team, and subjects. Along with other videos, that I had posted in this thread. If you wish to watch those. My dad got ripped on a lean, low carb diet in his 40's. He's tried every diet under the sun, I know. And I saw how strongly he felt about it. So I changed, too. I, also got ripped on a paleo diet. But I now believe, that it isn't the way forward.

While traveling the East-coast, I have eaten every burger there is. From Baltiomore, MD. To Miami Beach, FL. I have probably eaten over 1,000 burgers, and every other kind of meat product you can think of. I once ate a 32oz. steak by myself, in a little under an hour. I know how to eat meat. My joints would stiffen, and crack. I was developing muscular dystrophy. I use to weigh 115lbs, and now weighing nearly 120lbs.

But this is factual opinion.

And this was a rant. Now a controversial, discussion.

The food that we eat shouldn't poison us. It is unnatural.

Yes. I am ignoring most of these 'opinions'. Not facts. Because I view them, and millions of other people also view them untrue. A fact, cannot be a fact, if someone else thinks it incorrect. It is just an opinion. Most of what I have said are opinions, as I quoted. "Most of what we think of a good dietary plan, is hypothetical science, and history." If you state to me that eating meat-based products isn't harmful to the human condition, than you are pushing your 'opinions' on me, just as you say I am. That's the crossroad.

 Aahh.. you're still ranting. Not debating or even really discussing when you're ignoring what others are saying and dismissing their evidence as mere opinion, while holding you your opinion as solid scientific fact (If I and others looked, we could find facts just as solid to argue against what your claimaing)There are other scientists, people who are trained biochemists, nutritionists and dieticians, who will say the opposite of what you are saying, and backup their claims WITH facts. Facts you are calling 'opinions' and thereby dismissing. Just because millions of people believe Dr. Esselstynn's research, doesn't necessarily mean that it is right. Other millions believe that eating meat, in moderation is also right and correct. Numbers of believers alone does not make someone right. Is Dr. Esslstynn's work peer reviewed and accepted and passed by the medical journals?

 As for the diet, remember, that as Kuroneko said, that what works for you, will not necessarily work for others. Everyone's genetics is different and the same diet will not always work for everyone else. What works for you will not necessarily work for me. I like meat and probably eat too much of it, but I could eat it in moderation (beef, pork, chicken and sometimes fish (I dislike fish, bleh), but it's not going to be anymore healthy for me than a strictly vegan diet).

There is also scientific proof that says meat is unable to fully process it's products, including the fat. Animal fat can sit in the human digestive system for many hours, before it is fully digested into the system. And in some cases, ferment inside of the digest system, which leads to acid reflux. That doesn't sound very healthy.

We discovered meat, when there was nothing else for us to consume. So we fed on the livestock, and in some cases, ourselves. The average death-rate of the Japanese male has dropped increasingly, since the introduction of large cattle into their country.

 Pfft. Corn on the cob does the same thing. Passes through relatively undigested, but like the meat, it passes through.

 Aahhh. No. we discovered meat a loooong time ago and have been eating it for tens to hundreds of thousands of years. It has never been a recent discovery and we were solely herbivores until just before civilization developed (there are records and findings of humans eating meat back into the last Ice Age. So for 25,000+ years we have been eating meat, as well as grains and vegetables, as a species and it hasn't been harmful to us).

 Large cattle, you mean western cattle? Might the drop of Japanese male death also be the introduction of better health care too? You seem very fixed on the Japanese being fully healthy and fit before the west ever opened up the nation.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #43 on: April 05, 2015, 07:19:11 AM »
There is also scientific proof that says meat is unable to fully process it's products, including the fat. Animal fat can sit in the human digestive system for many hours, before it is fully digested into the system. And in some cases, ferment inside of the digest system, which leads to acid reflux. That doesn't sound very healthy.
This is an absolute skewing of fact.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Humans suck! We are a terribly inefficient organism in a lot of ways. Regardless of diet I can tell you that humans give off seventy percent of anything they eat as body heat, and that's a lot more than is required by homeostasis.

We don't break down anything we eat 100% or even 90%, we're working off about 30% of whatever we eat. If you eat nothing but celery you will die, it takes more calories to break down celery than it provides. Plant and fruit matter is expelled (much like useless fat) in our number twos. If we were 100% efficient on plant diets, we'break physics. Now, generally that cellulose (while still containing lots of things cows get) provides a nice fiber boost for humans, but come on, you're blatantly ignoring facts of the human body here.

Also, acid reflux can be caused by an excess of acidic food. Tomatoes, lemons, peppers, wait... those are all plants.

No, excessive meat can cause gout (which is acid build up in joints) or constipation, and yeah, if you've got those you need to lay off, but a balanced diet with meat isn't going to lead to those conditions.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 07:21:36 AM by Inkidu »

Offline Ebb

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #44 on: April 05, 2015, 08:21:56 AM »
If you watch Dr. Esselstyn's research seminar, which I posted. The leading biochemist in the world.

If we admit that eating too much meat is bad for people, would you please concede that Dr. Esselstyn is not actually a biochemist, much less "the leading biochemist in the world"? Honestly, every time you use that phrase it's making my teeth grate.

This isn't a matter of opinion, it's just a matter of accurately citing a man's qualifications. Dr. Esselstyn is an MD. He's not a biochemist. Those are two different things. He's no more a biochemist than he is a NASCAR driver, or a Catholic priest, or a salamander.

When you resist being corrected on the small stuff, it makes it difficult to want to engage with you on the bigger issues, because you're demonstrating an unwillingness to listen and converse rather than preach.


Offline Tsenta

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #45 on: April 05, 2015, 08:34:01 AM »
All I'm going to say is this:  A: Meat is more often eaten because in some areas it is actually CHEAPER.  Especially if you have dietary restrictions such as myself.

B: I live in an elderly community, where most of the populace are in their mid to late 90's.  Guess what they ate growing up, and still routinely eat?  You guessed it, a balanced diet including meat.

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #46 on: April 05, 2015, 10:55:27 AM »
You agreed with Dimir's post here:
It is a scientifically proven fact that water - consumed in large quantities - can be fatal.

So.  Taking your statement above, I would ask you this: 'If we can't drink water in large quantities, than what good is it in moderation?'
I have been drinking over 2 quarts of water for over the past decade. Water is fatal, when consumed in very large quantities, over a short expansion of time. It starts to leak into your lungs, and you suffocate.

If you can smoke a cigarette a day, for the next 30+ years. Than what's the difference?

Offline TheChroniclesTopic starter

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #47 on: April 05, 2015, 11:00:29 AM »
As long as you agree that it also applies to the research, hypothetical opinions and theories that you've posted - and that you actually allow all of us engaging in the conversation to make that choice for ourselves rather than trying to convince everyone in the thread that our point of view is incorrect simply because it's different than yours.
If you're coming to this thread, looking to spout your opinions, and theories. Than you're looking to push those opinions on myself. Why else would you post on this thread, if not to spread your opinions in the face of what I see to be justifiably true? Most of these people didn't come here for friendly conversation. This is an argument. They didn't have to come here, and state what they believe to be 'fact.' They come here out of will to convey their opinions, and dispute mine.

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Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #48 on: April 05, 2015, 11:05:48 AM »
I am not looking to push my opinions on you - merely get you to look at the way you are conveying your own.  There are people today who believe that the Earth is a flat disc.  There are also people today who believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.  By your own statement, that means that the idea that the Earth is an oblate spheroid that is many millions of years old is no longer a 'fact', but an 'opinion'.

Offline Iniquitous

Re: Healthy Living; Healthcare, Drugs, Food, and You. (Rant - Cussing)
« Reply #49 on: April 05, 2015, 11:07:52 AM »
Actually, I have no desire to force my beliefs -any of my beliefs- on you. I posted in this thread to correct you on your willingness to flat out ignore facts. Primarily historical facts since you completely neglected the fact that the Great Depression greatly changed how people ate - not some belief that meat was suddenly bad for them.

Again, you are skewing things to fit what you want to believe. This is a pointless thread for discussion because we cannot discuss anything with you. In your mind you are right, we are wrong and if we dont accept what you say as truth and fact, we are arguing with you.