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Author Topic: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?  (Read 2005 times)

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Offline Top Cat

Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 08:01:33 PM »
@Beorning: If you want evidence of a woman who actively wants women to not be able to vote, you have to go no further than Ann Coulter. She has said, on several different occasions and several different ways of expressing it, that she thinks the country would be a better place, and more to her liking, if women could not vote.

And yes, as Vulpa Regina offered, anti-suffragism was a thing for quite a while. It's not uncommon for conservative mindsets to oppose changes, even changes that benefit them. That's what "conservativism" is - a resistance to cultural and societal change.

Offline Envious

Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2015, 08:21:06 PM »
I admit I have a hard time understanding this kind of mindset... I mean, if you love somebody, then you treat them with respect. If you treat someone with respect, then you allow them to be free people with their own opinions etc. Meaning, you don't force them to obey you. And I assume that most husbands of the past did love their wives. But, if so, then how could they also believe that the wives should obey them? These two ideas seem totally at conflict for me...

What do you think? If you were, say, to RP as a husband from a few centures ago, how would you approach this subject? How would you square these two ideas?

Historically, (in western cultures) people haven't married for love, and marriages (relationships between men and women in general) were heavily burdened by social expectations. The degree in which that burden was felt was dictated by where a couple fell on the ladder of the social hierarchy. So that short answer would be yes, a woman was expected to be subordinate to her husband. At least in public.

There's a pretty good book out there that is a bunch of journals, letters, and essays about the subject, but I can't recall the name. I read it for some college class. These personal narratives held lots of insight about "home life" from many different perspectives.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2015, 07:51:29 PM »
@Beorning: If you want evidence of a woman who actively wants women to not be able to vote, you have to go no further than Ann Coulter. She has said, on several different occasions and several different ways of expressing it, that she thinks the country would be a better place, and more to her liking, if women could not vote.

Wow. I read that article you linked and... Coulter is really short-sighted there. She supports the Republicans, she thinks that the Republicans would keep winning elections if it was not for the votes of women, so... she believes that women should have their voting rights taken away? Just like that?

Okay, let's say that the American women lose their voting rights. What if the sympathies of American *men* change and the Democrats start winning the elections because most of the men support them? Would she ban men from voting, too?

I really don't think she thought all of this through...

Offline Oniya

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Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2015, 08:52:21 PM »
I really don't think she thought all of this through...

She rarely does.

Offline Top Cat

Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2015, 01:47:38 AM »
I've read over enough of Ann Coulter's stuff that I fervently hope that she's just pandering to the Republican base as a way to make a LOT of money. Otherwise, her stuff just comes across as out-and-out nutty.

I used to believe that Rush Limbaugh was pandering to his base - he was clearly, obviously sneering at his followers when he coined the term, "Dittoheads" - meaning, people who didn't even think about what was being said, they just nodded, and said, "Yeah, what he said." Over the last decade, though, I honestly believe that he "drank the kool-aid" and started to believe the crap he was preaching.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2015, 01:49:30 AM by Top Cat »

Offline Lilias

Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2015, 07:32:18 AM »
I used to believe that Rush Limbaugh was pandering to his base - he was clearly, obviously sneering at his followers when he coined the term, "Dittoheads" - meaning, people who didn't even think about what was being said, they just nodded, and said, "Yeah, what he said." Over the last decade, though, I honestly believe that he "drank the kool-aid" and started to believe the crap he was preaching.

The longer you do something, the easier and more natural it comes.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2015, 09:25:11 AM »
There are times I want to stop some of them and ask if they are secretly Democrats.  Of course there are some extremes on the liberal side that might be secret Republicans.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2015, 05:41:59 PM »
It kind of irks me that the democrats and the republicans have managed to high-jack he terms liberalism and conservatism respectively. A conservative doesn't have to be a Republican and a liberal does not certainly have to be a democrat, but the parties in their trenches like the pull that can have.

Offline Aethereal

Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2015, 09:55:10 PM »
    This kind of thing has - besides the time alone - always very heavily depended on the more exact region, the class of the people in question, the specific individual, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Were there some people who believed this kind of thing? Certainly. Were there some who did not believe, or at least did not bother to act on it the slightest? Definitely. Even religion wasn't as strong as it is commonly believed to be - plenty of people were fairly irreligious in some regions (planting crops was more important than praying; it yielded much more obvious results).
    Surprising as it might seem, some regions have actually regressed aplenty as far as equality goes. In the older times, though, you could also expect such beliefs to be much more localized - one village could think one way, the other village fifty miles away the exact opposite. Some authentic older literature paints fairly good pictures of what real people thought and acted like.
   If we go to times predating most literature, the picture becomes even more varied - Egiptian women had the rights to own property and even divorce, some nordic areas buried women with weapons and brought them along to raids, some battle-burials (as in, burials of warriors killed in battle, not raid-results) included nearly half women in other regions, noteworthy queens and rulers surfacing every now and then, so forth. So yes, plenty of proof of women having been doers of things on and off.

   If we aren't speaking strictly Earth, then all this would, of course, be quite meaningless... Another world, free reign. Especially once magic gets involved.

Offline HannibalBarca

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Re: Wife's submission to her husband - did people really believe that?
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2015, 11:14:45 PM »
Throughout human history, there has been the clash of what we call conservatism and liberalism.  It seems, according to psychologists and researchers, to come down to basic wiring in emotional centers of the brain.  The basic fear of the unknown leads to the rational mind believing the status quo is the best situation to live within.  An exploration of the unknown, thereby removing it as an unknown and therefore the fear, makes for an acceptance of what is different and 'other'.  There is a reason why more educated and more cosmopolitan people identify as liberal more than people who live in regions with ethnic and cultural homogeneity.  As the transportation technology of our species has advanced--as well as the advent of mass communication, starting with the printing press and the general spread of literacy and education--we have seen the general advancement of what are termed liberal democracies, and for good reason.  The more we learn about those around us, the more we can identify with them and empathize with them, and therefore not fear them.

Women's rights are just another facet of this march of progress of human culture.  More and more people have thrust into their face (and minds) the fact that women are not another species (as the ancient Greeks believed), but human beings with minds and rights just like men.  There are those who oppose this because of ignorance (willful or otherwise), greed, or a lack of emotional ability (sociopaths and their ilk on the psychological continuum), but as history has shown, when the older, more rigid members of society die off, human culture grinds forward like a juggernaut.