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Author Topic: Ignorance and Racism from the voters  (Read 6434 times)

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Offline Mathim

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2008, 06:21:20 PM »
Well don't forget that Idiocracy had the government wanting to take as little responsibility as possible, pushing all of the pressure onto Joe Bowers (AKA, Not Sure.) To me, it seems like McCain would be the one wanting that kind of pressure relief, while Obama would welcome the challenge.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2008, 07:50:26 AM »
I was thinking does any of this really matter? It seems to me the government does little of any value outside of its functions to protect us and keep the peace in communities (military & law enforcement) they don't create jobs, raise families or really do anything important. People do. Computers, the telephone, automobile, the real internet and other things were made by people and companies- not the government. And for all the delight in all these promises the candidates are making, the President has really very little power, even less than Congress to do anything but muck up the Spontaneous Order of free trade.

Even language was not created by rulers people thought it was a good idea and it developed on its own over thousands of years, the one attempt to create a language Esperanto fell like a rock. Hell Klingonese is more popular I would think by the fans Star Trek.

Can you show me one example where the government did anything constructive to develop a new industry from scratch or made a new technology, that couldn't likely have been done better by the private markets working? (That is important can you show that they did something and the private market could not have met the need likely cheaper for the same results if their was a need shown to fill.)

As I see it you could put that "Joe the Plumber" in Executive Branch office and he could do a decent job the same for elected offices in general.


Offline Sherona

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2008, 09:08:40 AM »
I certainly wouldn't put the fate of my life in the hands of Joe Plumber. Joe Plumber being the commander and chief of a rather large army, with a rather large arsenal.

If you believe this Ruby, then really you shouldn't post everywhere how much Federal Government screws everything up, how the government is the blame for eveyrthing that goes wrong. This post contradicts just about every one of your other posts. Either the federal government does do things, or they don't. Can't have it both ways.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2008, 09:34:46 AM »
There are three things the government can and should do.

1. Prevent Fraud in Business (that is install regulations to insure honesty and integrity in business dealings)

2. Defend the Citizens (they are supposed to have a military capable of defending this nation and local communites can run services that defend the citizens)

3. Do Things the Citizens Cannot Do (this is the big one if the people and companies are there to meet a need the government should get out of the way)

I see no difficulty if the government has to get in there and set up regulations to prevent fraudulant practices and these could be in some areas strict like accounting practices to prevent questionble results (like Enron used). But take mortgages and house wonership business was handling that very well before the Federal Government decided more people should have homes even if they would never get a loan through the traditional means. Like putting down 20% of the cost and being credit worthy with a job. There were good programs for first time home buyers to help but the basic rules were still in place as in being credit worthy.

But as a rule the more government meddles the worse things can get, you can't tell me handing money to the auto industry and airlines that can't make it makes any sense. The free market thrives on efficiency and that leading to Spontaneous Order creates opportunities, industries are supposed to fail and others rise that is what the government fails to grasp.






Offline Trieste

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Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2008, 10:52:55 AM »
Hussein is a common name but only if you're arab. And if Americans are a bit hung up on Arabs and Muslims, it might have something to do with them having flown a plane into the World Trade Towers. If lingering dislike and paranoia are all the common people take out of that, that's really quite tolerant. Not so long ago people would have picked up pitchforks, torches and began dispensing vigilante justice.

Ahm. Obama is 48 years old (at least, I assume he is, going by the statement in the last debate "Forty years ago, when I was 8...") and Saddam Hussein didn't rise to power until 1963... 3 years after Obama was named. Most Americans had not heard of Saddam Hussein until circa the first Gulf War in 1990. I'm going to be generous and say that people heard about Saddam Hussein as early as 1980... when Obama would have been 20 years old. The use of 'Hussein' as a punch button is ridiculous, ludicrous, and otherwise silly.

And, really, if you want to hold the things a few people have done against a whole nation or religion of people, you may as well say that Americans shoot up their schools, and all Irishmen are bomb-happy 'freedom fighters'. Puh-lease.

As I see it you could put that "Joe the Plumber" in Executive Branch office and he could do a decent job the same for elected offices in general.

For the love of God, I heard enough about this guy during the debate and I really am sick of hearing about is plight and how significant or insignificant it may be. I don't give a flying fuck about Joe the Plumber because my name is not Joe and I am not a plumber. I'm certainly not in a position to buy a business, and I certainly have not been working 16 hours a day, 7 days a week. If I were in a position to do so, I would probably be quite a bit more content than I am now.

Really, it was kind of a joke having the candidates bring that up in the middle of rising unemployment rates and a horrible spate of worry about the economy. People are not worrying about 'Hey, can I buy my business, and will I have to pay more taxes if I do?" ... they are worrying about "Hey, can I feed my cats and pay my rent this month or do I have to choose one or the other?"

Put simply: I have already heard enough about Joe the Plumber for chrissake, and I'm tired of him. Talk about something else.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2008, 11:03:16 AM »
I was using him as an example, we can't put in my friend Anita Sanchez she is a 40 year old maid, I figure anyone with common sense could be president. She has never been in debt and raised four children with $10,000 in the bank I would think that makes her common sense based and careful with her routine business. Better than Palin in any case.
 :D

But really the government can't fix the economy and do all these miracles its besdes a violation of common sense it is outside their power. The economy if left alone would readjust as I see it when Credit Card Companies are rethinking how they give out credit cards its a good sign its doing just that. People will get hurt and new jobs created at some point I see no problem with reducing the volumes of red tape to let them do their jobs and get things going again in a proper way. I'm not opposed to reasonable and limited to prevent fraud government regulations and to keep the process clear of questionable practices the rest of the piles of government intervention is crazy.

And no president has any power to fix things, he may be a good man and want to but the free market generally will correct itself as it settles from these bad points, which I will add Clinton was creating by insisting more people get credit. Others helped spur the destruction of the housing market but he did start the ball rolling.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 11:05:31 AM by RubySlippers »

Offline The Overlord

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2008, 10:32:29 PM »
Trouble is, if the smart ones steer clear, what are we left with? ;)

They stay clear because the haves in government want to have even more and corrupt it utterly. What it leaves us with is the specter of a full-scale revolution. We're bigtime fuckin' overdue.

Offline OldSchoolGamer

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2008, 04:49:26 AM »
We have to keep in mind that the agendas of the candidates at this juncture are very nearly meaningless.  There's really only going to be one over-arching theme of the next eight years, and that is managing the post-oil crash-landing of the American economy in a manner that preserves the United States in something at least faintly resembling its current form. 

The next President is going to have the rather unenviable task of telling 300 million-odd people that they've been living a three-pronged fantasy for the past thirty-plus years: that oil is unlimited and we can use as much as we want forever, that we can endlessly buy consumer goods from all over the world and export IOUs indefinitely, and that inventing new forms of debt is in fact a creation of wealth that should be economically rewarded.  The news that the "non-negotiable" "American way of life" is in fact utterly unsustainable is going to rub those people the wrong way, and a revolution against the messenger is not unlikely.

Offline Sherona

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #33 on: October 19, 2008, 08:47:15 AM »
*laughs* Ty you sound as if the United States citizens do not already know that? I knew it for a long while, and a good many thinking USer's did as well...unfortunately big business clouded the minds of our politicians and and the loudmouths. But even then they (even president Bush) got whacked over the head with that brick about a year ago...so your behind.

This president won't have to tell the USer's anything like that, but he will have to do more to enforce greener thinking, try to spur on the technology we already have to produce alternative energies.

But the biggest thing the President will have to do is fix the economy. Take care of social security, welfare, national medical healthcare plan....

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2008, 09:50:26 AM »
I wish I thought you were right, Sherona.  Living in central Virginia, I'm surrounded by people who are in complete ignorance of anything other than their own little world.  It's scary, really.  Even when gas went over $4 the reality check didn't happen *sigh*

Offline Sherona

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2008, 10:00:29 AM »
Perhaps its a oklahoma/texas thing? I see nothing but commercials for state senate seats geared directly towards finding renewable resources for fuel, cleaner burning fuels...I see commercials for all kinds of prodcuts made in teh USA that are going Green. Even shows on Discovery, History, TLC all have weekly shows geared towards saving our planet, its hard to think that there is not a growing awareness when 10 years ago the idea of being green was largely just recycling.

Offline Oniya

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Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2008, 10:36:42 AM »
It might be a big-city thing.  I used to live in NoVA, and I can see that kind of mindset persisting there - despite a rather nice bus/subway/commuter-rail system, that I used a lot, people would rather drive their cars through insane rush hours. (*waits for laughter from New Yorkers*)

Now that I'm in the rural parts of the MidWest, people seem much more sensible.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2008, 10:38:28 AM »
Living in the panhandle of Florida circa Katrina, despite the skyrocket back then I heard a very solid "ain't gonna get no damned hybrid" attitude.

Offline Moondazed

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Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2008, 11:27:21 AM »
I live in rural central Virginia, and it's frustrating to me that people are so ignorant of the situation, seemingly by choice.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 09:36:26 PM by moondazed »

Offline The Overlord

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2008, 01:39:11 PM »
We have to keep in mind that the agendas of the candidates at this juncture are very nearly meaningless.  There's really only going to be one over-arching theme of the next eight years, and that is managing the post-oil crash-landing of the American economy in a manner that preserves the United States in something at least faintly resembling its current form. 

The next President is going to have the rather unenviable task of telling 300 million-odd people that they've been living a three-pronged fantasy for the past thirty-plus years: that oil is unlimited and we can use as much as we want forever, that we can endlessly buy consumer goods from all over the world and export IOUs indefinitely, and that inventing new forms of debt is in fact a creation of wealth that should be economically rewarded.  The news that the "non-negotiable" "American way of life" is in fact utterly unsustainable is going to rub those people the wrong way, and a revolution against the messenger is not unlikely.

Ever the optimist, eh? LOL


You must realize that this three-pronged fantasy has been a fantasy for only a percentage of the population (although I fear the major percentage have fallen for it).

For the rest of us that can do the math and saw it coming, we'll do what we have to do, and the shifts will be made wherever possible to retool for the new situations to come.

The economy eventually will recover, although as one analyst put it, America best buckle up and prepare for a bumpy ride, however you are forgetting the true debt that we and everyone else are going to have to deal with (and by 'everyone else' I mean the planet).


That being our ravenous assault on the environment in the past century. The next administration MUST act decisively on this, or bringing home jobs from China and India and cutting debts down won't mean shit. Cutting our dependence on oil, foreign OR domestic is the first big step.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #40 on: October 19, 2008, 01:46:56 PM »
Perhaps its a oklahoma/texas thing? I see nothing but commercials for state senate seats geared directly towards finding renewable resources for fuel, cleaner burning fuels...I see commercials for all kinds of prodcuts made in teh USA that are going Green. Even shows on Discovery, History, TLC all have weekly shows geared towards saving our planet, its hard to think that there is not a growing awareness when 10 years ago the idea of being green was largely just recycling.

We're seeing the the clouds start to gather on this at last, but it must become a full-scale storm at last.

I think a big factor is that now some people have pulled their head out of the sand and are getting scared. What it comes down to is either proactively making changes, or having them forced upon you by grim necessity.

Whether that be Joe Sixpack, Joe the Plummer, Dick the wasteful yuppie, or Mr. Dumass the executive, all of you, will.

You WILL

YOU WILL change your ways in the end.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #41 on: October 19, 2008, 01:53:10 PM »
So melodramatic. *puts on hardhat* I'm not saying that there isn't a problem and I'm not trying to ignore the elephant in the room or anything, but will you please stop with the Chicken Little, OL? It's severely off-putting and annoying.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #42 on: October 19, 2008, 02:06:51 PM »
By Chicken Little you mean I'm crying Sky is Falling?

Look around Trieste, turn on the news...the sky is already falling. Maybe in slow motion at first, but it's coming.

Offline Trieste

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Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #43 on: October 19, 2008, 02:16:40 PM »
I don't think it is. I think saying that 'this is the worst economic crisis since the 30s' is hyperbole and meant to scare people. I think that scare tactics are underhanded. Tapping into visceral fight-or-flight by scaring people discourages them to think, and I am automatically suspicious of anyone on either side who doesn't want me to think. Yes, it could be said that scare tactics are also efficient at motivating people to do things like vote, but they do so mindlessly, with only the immediate future in mind. That's what got us into this mess, and will only get us deeper. Scare tactics are dirty pool either way you look at it.

And saying things like this...

We're seeing the the clouds start to gather on this at last, but it must become a full-scale storm at last.

I think a big factor is that now some people have pulled their head out of the sand and are getting scared. What it comes down to is either proactively making changes, or having them forced upon you by grim necessity.

Whether that be Joe Sixpack, Joe the Plummer, Dick the wasteful yuppie, or Mr. Dumass the executive, all of you, will.

You WILL

YOU WILL change your ways in the end.


counts as trying to scare people, which is sort of the definition of a 'scare tactic'. It's the same thing that McCain is engaging in, also, along with Palin. Especially Palin.

Saying "the sky is falling" does no good. Saying "Yeah, we have big problems and we need to fix them" is a start, but from where I'm standing, I don't want people to come up to me and say "Excuse me, do you know that with every breath you take, you're dying?" because I already know that. (There's a whole chemical explanation behind why oxygen is toxic even though we need it that I won't go into right now.) What I want people to do is take that effort and use it toward thinking of a solution. Instead of wasting effort by running around and flailing your arms, I want people to take that energy and direct it to their juicy little brains and use it to fuel a brainstorm that may eventually become a solution.

So yeah. The sky is falling. Whatever. What're you gonna do about it?

Offline Valerian

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #44 on: October 19, 2008, 02:19:29 PM »
Has there ever been a generation, in all of human history, that didn't think things were worse than they'd ever been?  Human society is just pessimistic that way.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #45 on: October 19, 2008, 02:28:24 PM »
We're seeing the the clouds start to gather on this at last, but it must become a full-scale storm at last.

I think a big factor is that now some people have pulled their head out of the sand and are getting scared. What it comes down to is either proactively making changes, or having them forced upon you by grim necessity.

Whether that be Joe Sixpack, Joe the Plummer, Dick the wasteful yuppie, or Mr. Dumass the executive, all of you, will.

You WILL

YOU WILL change your ways in the end.


Maybe the government could get out of the way and stop mucking up everything, as I see most of this came from too much government interference. Banks used to be governmed by reasonable risk that is they would hand out money for a laon only if the peopel were a good risk, even under government housing assistance such as my father under the GO Bill he had to put down money and be credit worthy with a job sufficent to pay the mortgage. Then the government said more people should get loans and forgo these safer practices. And now the government want to bail everyone out for their fuck up. I'm tired of this and people who are such babies and so stupid they can't get that.

I'm tired more of voters that sit around believing these pipe dreams and can't face the truths.

The nation is broke and can't afford to do much of anything, and that has to be fixed.

Offline The Overlord

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #46 on: October 19, 2008, 02:53:15 PM »


counts as trying to scare people, which is sort of the definition of a 'scare tactic'. It's the same thing that McCain is engaging in, also, along with Palin. Especially Palin.


That's an opinion Trieste. For the record I posted it not as a 'scare tactic' but a simple truth. If we don't act on it now, the global environmental crisis will become the issue of the century, overriding everything including the slumping US economy, because that too will depend on how we choose to use or abuse our planet.



So yeah. The sky is falling. Whatever. What're you gonna do about it?

So what am I going to do about it? Well I've been trying to do something for years now. Like people say this is going to require more than recycling to tackle, which I have been doing for many, many years. But we have to look at all the big and little ways...how we can condense our driving and save fuel, not just when the gas prices go up and we're scared if we'll have enough gas to get to work and everywhere else, but the rest of the time too, when prices drop back down.

How can we cut other energy costs? I head someone coin the term vampiric electronics; that being those gadgets we own that suck power even when they're 'off'...doing very little to nothing. It means taking the cell phone charger out of the wall even you take the phone off of it, because it can still pull power.

It means I unplug our TV and satellite receiver when we're not using them. The warm-up factor for modern televisions is a way overrated myth, to the point that I'm tempted to call it a redundant feature, and the receiver takes, at worst, a minute to reacquire the satellite when the power's been off.

That's some of the things I'm doing about it; those alone could be a huge impact on our national power bill if most people did it. What are you doing about it? Or, more importantly, what is everyone else here doing about it?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 03:08:47 PM by The Overlord »

Offline The Overlord

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #47 on: October 19, 2008, 02:54:18 PM »
Has there ever been a generation, in all of human history, that didn't think things were worse than they'd ever been?  Human society is just pessimistic that way.

Unfortunately for us, there is no other species we can blame.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #48 on: October 19, 2008, 03:09:34 PM »
That's an opinion Trieste. For the record I posted it not as a 'scare tactic' but a simple truth. If we don't act on it now, the global environmental crisis will become the issue of the century, overriding everything including the slumping US economy, because that too will depend on how we choose to use or abuse our planet.

So what am I going to do with it? Well I've been trying to do something for years now. Like people say this is going to require more than recycling to tackle, which I have been doing for many, many years. But we have to look at all the big and little ways...how we can condense our driving and save fuel, not just when the gas prices go up and we're scared if we'll have enough gas to get to work and everywhere else, but the rest of the time too, when prices drop back down.

How can we cut other energy costs? I head someone coin the term vampiric electronics; that being those gadgets we own that suck power even when they're 'off'...doing very little to nothing. It means taking the cell phone charger out of the wall even you take the phone off of it, because it can still pull power.

It means I unplug our TV and satellite receiver when we're not using them. The warm-up factor for modern televisions is a way overrated myth, to the point that I'm tempted to call it a redundant feature, and the receiver takes, at worst, a minute to reacquire the satellite when the power's been off.

That's some of the things I'm doing about it; those alone could be a huge impact on our national power bill if most people did it. What are you doing about it? Or, more importantly, what is everyone else here doing about it?


Well I take the bus, not that I have a choice with an electric power wheelchair but hell that is green also. But its also cheaper with no insurance costs, paying for gas and maintenance of a car I pay only $600 a year for transportation. With an occassional need for a assistance van now and then.

I do love freecycling mostly because its cheap and saves me money. If things don't save me more money than its worth doing I won't do it. Like recycling its not saving ME money for the time to do it so I don't.  Thats the free market when something gets to be cheaper and more practical people do it I'm sure someday solar power will be better and cheaper than say coal then people will use it in their homes. In my home I just don't see the $20,000 to put one in for the power we use a good investment at all, get that down to $4000 or so then talk to me about it.

I do also buy locally when I can especially at our Saturday Market for food and groceries when I can and shop at local retailers over the big box stores as much as I can.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 10:08:00 AM by RubySlippers »

Offline Zakharra

Re: Ignorance and Racism from the voters
« Reply #49 on: October 19, 2008, 04:46:39 PM »
 
Quote
Cutting our dependence on oil, foreign OR domestic is the first big step.

 Impossible. There is no way we can cut our dependence on ANY oil. Oil is what fuels the entire economy. without it we would have nothing. There is no substitute that could replace oil. not anytime soon or in the next 50 years. The amount of oil the world uses is far beyond the ability of a company or companies to make.

 Can we use less? Yes. That will help somewhat, but to expand an economy, reducing use is not the way. More supply is needed.