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Author Topic: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination  (Read 4622 times)

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Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2015, 09:06:59 PM »
"Christian Science" is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?

Given some of the stuff Hubbard's posse has pulled off, it should be "Christian Pseudo-science"

Hubbard's posse is a completely different group than the Christian Scientists (although I wouldn't be surprised if the Scientologists were also anti-vax).  As far as old L. Ron is concerned, I believe in the clear separation between Church and Science Fiction.  ;)

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #51 on: February 09, 2015, 09:11:11 PM »
Christian Scientists (which are a separate religious group) have a belief that all illness can be cured by prayer alone.  You have cancer?  Forget chemotherapy - get prayed over.  You have diabetes?  Forget insulin - get prayed over.  There have been a number of contentious cases where children with treatable conditions have died because of this practice.

As a Christian I have to say that's the dumbest fucking thing ever. These idiots give the rest of us a badname >_< Seriously I know our god is supposed to be all loving and mercyfull but he don't hand out miracles like candy. I wish I could tell these people the story of the old man and the flood and remind them we are expected to handle thins on our own.


**Old man and the flood.
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Story goes an old man was in the middle of a flood zone when the tide was rising, in the beginning a family with a cart shows up near his home and asks if he wants a ride but he tells them god will keep him safe.

Then the flood waters are up to his knees and a man on a horse stops and offers the man a chance to escape with him but the old man says that god will keep him safe.

Finally the flood is so high that the old man has to stay on his roof to survive and a man on a boat comes by, tellin him to jump on but the old man again says god will keep him safe.

The old man drowns and when he meets god he curses god and asks him why he was allowed to drown. To which God replies.

"I sent you a family with a cart, a man on a horse and a man with a boat. What more did you want from me?"
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 09:14:41 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2015, 09:14:09 PM »
As a Christian I have to say that's the dumbest fucking thing ever. These idiots give the rest of us a badname >_< Seriously I know our god is supposed to be all loving and mercyfull but he don't hand out miracles like candy. I wish I could tell these people the story of the old man and the flood and remind them we are expected to handle thins on our own.

You mean the one with 'I sent you two boats and a helicopter'?

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #53 on: February 09, 2015, 09:15:10 PM »
You mean the one with 'I sent you two boats and a helicopter'?

Yes, but the one I heard had a horse, a family with a cart and a boat.

So pretty much when I get sick I will not be praying I wil be getting my lazy ass to a doctor and letting God do his own business. Only time im praying for health is when im terminal and even then im just begging for extra time.  :P
« Last Edit: February 09, 2015, 09:17:19 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Caehlim

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2015, 09:18:37 PM »
Hubbard's posse is a completely different group than the Christian Scientists (although I wouldn't be surprised if the Scientologists were also anti-vax).

To the best of my knowledge Scientologists aren't as systematically against most modern medicine, only modern psychology and psychiatry. There have been a few cases of abuses within the history of the church of people being declined medical attention, however it's not really a major part of their doctrine.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2015, 09:22:26 PM »
Apologies, I confused Christian Science with Scientology. (Neither of which are science)

Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2015, 09:23:39 PM »
To the best of my knowledge Scientologists aren't as systematically against most modern medicine, only modern psychology and psychiatry. There have been a few cases of abuses within the history of the church of people being declined medical attention, however it's not really a major part of their doctrine.

I'll be honest, I haven't read a lot of their doctrine.  (I lost interest somewhere around the 'clouds' and the 'clears'.)  It's vaguely encouraging that they don't decry modern medicine, though.

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2015, 09:45:10 PM »
"Christian Science" is a bit of an oxymoron, isn't it?

Given some of the stuff Hubbard's posse has pulled off, it should be "Christian Pseudo-science"
Only in the case of that one particular group. Remember we owe a Augustinian friar for laying the groundwork for the concept of modern genetic (and by extension several modern virological fields). :) 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 06:24:17 AM by Inkidu »

Offline AndyZ

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2015, 11:32:51 PM »
Apparently, where I live, it's already a thing where you have to have it to be able to go to school.  The reasoning for schools and not other public places is because schools can have a lot of need for students' medical records to begin with, as opposed to getting changed at, say, Disneyland.  The various concerns I've had, like keeping poor kids out if they couldn't afford vaccinations, have apparently been handled.

Ultimately, while I absolutely believe in personally getting them, I'm torn on the idea of requiring people to get them.  The school thing is probably the best sort of compromise that one can manage if you don't want the government to have access to your medical files, though.


So, my next dumb question: why is it all starting up again?  If the disease was eliminated in America in the year 2000, why would it pop up again nearly a decade and a half later?

Edit: The last question wasn't clear, so I'll try a little better.

Eliminated diseases are completely gone, right?  Kaput.  Zero.  This is no longer a thing in America, right, from 2001 to 2014?  Do we not check people who come in if they have it, or do diseases spontaneously resurface?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2015, 12:15:19 AM by AndyZ »

Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2015, 01:20:48 AM »
The disease was eliminated in the US.  It wasn't eliminated world-wide.  If I remember right, smallpox is only found in laboratories these days, and polio cases are numbering in the 'under 100 world-wide' - those are the closest to extinct diseases.

So, the problem is someone crossing the border with it, especially in the stage before symptoms occur.  Think of it - you've booked a trip to Disney, probably non-refundable, and you've been looking forward to it for weeks.  Time comes to drive up there, and one of your kids has a slight fever.  Nothing too serious, right?  Let 'em sleep in the car, and they'll be right as rain.  Unknown to you, your child is in the contagious stage of measles.

Offline AndyZ

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2015, 01:24:08 AM »
Gotcha.  Thank you.

If we want to make it mandatory to have vaccinations, then, we should likewise have it mandatory to have vaccinations before coming to America, right?

Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2015, 01:29:27 AM »
Nice in theory, but impossible in practice.  What you're basically suggesting is that all people crossing the border would need to present their vaccination records or be subject to a quarantine period.  This is already done with pets (as I've heard that people moving with animals have to have the pet quarantined for a number of weeks/months), but imagine the uproar if it happened with humans.

Offline AndyZ

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2015, 01:31:25 AM »
Isn't that what we used to do with Ellis Island and such?  I may be wrong on that one...

Offline Kythia

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2015, 01:32:06 AM »
Also, as mentioned above, some people can't have the vaccine for various reasons.

Offline AndyZ

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2015, 02:21:46 AM »
Also, as mentioned above, some people can't have the vaccine for various reasons.

I realize ^_^

Right now I'm looking into all the feasibility of if we attempted to mandate vaccinations for everyone who wasn't stopped from having it for one reason or another.  I can stop if I'm derailing things or if the OP prefers.

Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2015, 05:44:09 AM »
Isn't that what we used to do with Ellis Island and such?  I may be wrong on that one...

Not sure if vaccinations were as much of a 'thing' back in the days of mass immigration (although quarantine is a distinct possibility), but consider how many people enter the country through routes other than Ellis Island or the modern equivalent.  Tourists on vacation, by both plane and automobile.  People who just choose to run the border instead of going through legal channels.

Offline Caela

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2015, 08:10:14 AM »
The other problem you have isn't necessarily immigrants but American travelers. Say adult A had their shots as a child but, unbeknownst to them, their immunity has worn off (sometimes the body just doesn't keep the antibodies up if it doesn't use them) and they go to a country where there happens to be a measles outbreak. With measles you are contagious DAYS before you actually start to show any symptoms and this traveler then hops on another plane, appearing perfectly healthy, and breaths all that lovely recycled air with his fellow passengers on the way back to the States. If the vast majority of the are vaccinated, you probably don't have much of a problem. If you have a few anti-vaxxers ready to take that lovely virus back to all their little anti-vaxxer friends and their kids....you can see where this is going.

And that doesn't even take into consideration all the people this one person might come into contact with through various restaurants, airports, taxis, etc.

Which is why it's also good to have titres (immune levels) checked as an adult to find out if you may need a booster, particularly if you are planning to travel.

Offline Caela

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2015, 08:16:11 AM »
Apparently, where I live, it's already a thing where you have to have it to be able to go to school.  The reasoning for schools and not other public places is because schools can have a lot of need for students' medical records to begin with, as opposed to getting changed at, say, Disneyland.  The various concerns I've had, like keeping poor kids out if they couldn't afford vaccinations, have apparently been handled.

Ultimately, while I absolutely believe in personally getting them, I'm torn on the idea of requiring people to get them.  The school thing is probably the best sort of compromise that one can manage if you don't want the government to have access to your medical files, though.


So, my next dumb question: why is it all starting up again?  If the disease was eliminated in America in the year 2000, why would it pop up again nearly a decade and a half later?

Edit: The last question wasn't clear, so I'll try a little better.

Eliminated diseases are completely gone, right?  Kaput.  Zero.  This is no longer a thing in America, right, from 2001 to 2014?  Do we not check people who come in if they have it, or do diseases spontaneously resurface?

Just my thoughts on the bolded part...It's starting again because people feel safe (and sometimes safety just makes you stupid) enough to doubt the masses of scientific evidence saying they need to be vaccinated. They feel safe because they have never (many of them) actually had to see the devastating effects that these diseases can have not just on a child but on whole families. Yes, many people recover from the measles none the worse for having had it. It's not the majority that we vaccinate for. We vaccinate to keep that small, statistical minority from the ravages of measles pneumonia or encephalitis, both of which can kill you and the latter can also cause brain impairments, deafness and blindness as well. These people feel safe thinking, "It's not a problem here so why bother?" or "It's just a rash," or "The possible risk of a reaction isn't worth it since MY child won't get this disease in AMERICA" and it never occurs to them how incredibly selfish and short-sighted any of those thoughts are.

Offline Caela

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2015, 08:24:16 PM »
A Mother's anguish is why we vaccinate. The link goes to a timeline photo and a letter on FB written by a Mother who is now under quarantine with her two children (only a couple months old) while they wait to find out if their exposure to the measles will pass them over or if her baby will become ill with a disease that could have been prevented if those around him had been vaccinated.

Offline AndyZ

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2015, 12:29:17 AM »
Not sure if vaccinations were as much of a 'thing' back in the days of mass immigration (although quarantine is a distinct possibility), but consider how many people enter the country through routes other than Ellis Island or the modern equivalent.  Tourists on vacation, by both plane and automobile.  People who just choose to run the border instead of going through legal channels.

I meant to say quarantine.  Sorry about that.

I want to clarify to everyone that I have been vaccinated, would have my kids vaccinated if I had any, and encourage vaccinations.  Just in case that's in doubt.

However, apparently we don't vaccinate for smallpox anymore, because it's been eliminated.

Routine vaccination of the American public against smallpox stopped in 1972 after the disease was eradicated in the United States.

Maybe we should start to consider some better methods of quarantine.  I mean, Ebola got to the USA, and the only reason that it hasn't spread to everyone is because it doesn't spread very easily.

Even though you're more likely to catch something when others aren't vaccinated, it's still a danger, right?

Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2015, 07:30:00 AM »
Smallpox has been eliminated world-wide and that's why we don't vaccinate against it.  Polio is almost gone, so we still vaccinate against it (IPV at 2, 4, and 6 months).  The only other disease I could find that has been eliminated world-wide (in the wild - there are still lab samples) is an animal disease called 'rinderpest'.

As for quarantine.  Back during the 'Ebola news epidemic' (as opposed to the epidemic of the disease itself, which is still going on), there was an attempt to quarantine people coming back to the US after spending time in those areas.

The response was that those measures were draconian.  That they caused stress for health-care workers.  Despite the outcry, there were only four cases confirmed in the US by the CDC, compared to the spread in the hot zone itself.  Only one of those involved transmission from another US patient.

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2015, 08:30:12 AM »
It might have been draconian, but until there's a vaccine for disease the only option is to make sure that it doesn't spread. You can't outrun a virus that just makes things worse. I feel bad for the draconian quarantine measures, but there's often little to no other choice.

Offline Oniya

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #72 on: February 11, 2015, 09:49:53 AM »
Oh, I agree, Inkidu.  I worked in an actual viral research lab for a while (tech support), and then worked for a company that translates lab reports about disinfectants into EPA jargon (which is how I knew that Vaccinia is still found in labs).  And the low number of confirmed cases shows that those methods worked.

I'm just saying that if the gummint tried to enforce quarantine for a disease that is perceived as 'the stuff of horror movies' and got that kind of backlash, then imagine the reaction to enforcing quarantine for something that is perceived as much less dangerous.

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Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #73 on: February 11, 2015, 11:15:14 AM »
Oh, I agree, Inkidu.  I worked in an actual viral research lab for a while (tech support), and then worked for a company that translates lab reports about disinfectants into EPA jargon (which is how I knew that Vaccinia is still found in labs).  And the low number of confirmed cases shows that those methods worked.

I'm just saying that if the gummint tried to enforce quarantine for a disease that is perceived as 'the stuff of horror movies' and got that kind of backlash, then imagine the reaction to enforcing quarantine for something that is perceived as much less dangerous.
Yeah, you're right. I just feel bad that the only option is often the roughest.

Offline AndyZ

Re: California Measles Outbreak + Anti-Vaccination
« Reply #74 on: February 11, 2015, 03:09:47 PM »
I respectfully disagree.

Although I've never been a parent, I've seen parents who allow tantrums and the like to allow them to permit bad behavior, and I can't help but be reminded of the analogy.

We're paying the CDC $6.9 billion dollars to keep us safe from these diseases.  Quarantines may seem draconian but they're an obvious necessity, and given the Internet and things like that, they're no longer nearly as isolating.

I almost want to point to the Star Trek episodes of what happens when people break quarantine.

Even if we had 100% of people immunized in the USA, you'd still have to protect your newborns from everyone who came in from other countries, isn't immunized and may have brought the disease with them.

My dad told me a story about how someone caught measles from being in an elevator a week after someone else who already had it.

If we accept that people who don't vaccinate are killing people via negligence, then we can easily apply that same negligence to the people who enter without vaccinating.  However, once you eliminate the problem from a country, it can only be started by the latter.

If smallpox made a resurgence, we'd blame people at the labs who let it out, not the people who didn't vaccinate.  I'm a bit more concerned with the people who brought measles back into America instead of the people who didn't vaccinate.  Yes, they exacerbated the problem, but they didn't originate it.

Amusingly, if you eliminate a disease from a country, vaccinations for it should no longer be even necessary.  I'd still get them, though, just in case one got through the cracks.

If public opinion isn't there, we should use times like this, Ebola and others to remind people why it should be there.