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Author Topic: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.  (Read 1883 times)

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Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2015, 12:16:24 PM »
He's also 100% not interested in helping people be unified or coherent or "sticking together" if it involves anything other than "Mengsk gets what Mengsk wants." He's quite happy to abandon, betray and outright kill humans as quick as any alien threat for as little reason as "they disagreed with me." No thanks.

Not entirely. What Mengsk wants is all the humans in the sector united under his command. He's a megalomaniac, but he's also right, even if his actions don't necessarily live up to his propaganda. On the other hand, re-reading through some SC2 mission playthroughs show stuff like civilians being herded into forced labor camps and planets being abandoned to get eaten/burned, so life for the typical Dominion civvie isn't as great as I thought at first.


Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2015, 12:59:23 PM »
Liber8 from Continuum. Mostly because I detest Rachel Nichols and anything to do with her, and also because they are freedom fighters that are fighting against a dictatorship that the show tries to cram down it's viewers throats as the good guys.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2015, 03:10:55 PM »
If I could choose another group? I would pick the Corlaines from the Godfather


And the Hutt Crime Syndicate....as long as I get a Slave Leia >:)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 10:14:57 PM by CaptainNexus616 »

Offline Lux12

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2015, 08:37:27 PM »
You know what, if I had to choose a morally grey or evil group to ally with, I think I would ally myself with the Tevinter Imperium from Dragon Age,. Out of all of the factions of that universe I just kinda have thing for the Imperium... Sure they have slaves, but can you really say that a serf or a farmer in Ferelden isn't subject to the whims of his lord? better live with the fact that you have little free will, and just get good at making whoever makes the decisions happy. That... and magic

I know what you mean. I dislike many things about the Tevinter Imperium, but at least they treat mages like they're human beings. They may let them get away with murder in a literal sense, but when you see how restraining them in the extreme works, it seems to turn out worse. This is not to say I find the things people with the Imperium some times do entirely acceptable, but the way the Chantry treats their mages, it's kind of hard to hate them as much as the characters in the series do. That and the class system (as in socioeconomic class)  seems less rigid.

Online Inkidu

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #29 on: January 30, 2015, 08:45:17 PM »
I know what you mean. I dislike many things about the Tevinter Imperium, but at least they treat mages like they're human beings. They may let them get away with murder in a literal sense, but when you see how restraining them in the extreme works, it seems to turn out worse. This is not to say I find the things people with the Imperium some times do entirely acceptable, but the way the Chantry treats their mages, it's kind of hard to hate them as much as the characters in the series do. That and the class system (as in socioeconomic class)  seems less rigid.
Actually the Andrastian Chantry has the moderate approach.

The all-time abusers of mages goes to the Qun. They literally thing magic is spread by a mage's mere utterance, and if they're ever separated from their handlers they're killed outright. No matter what for or for how long.

They also sew their mouths shut or cut out their tongues and make them go around in heavy iron collars, head cages, and shackles beholden to the handler's control rod.

To top it all off the Qunari word for a mage is literally dangerous thing. They don't consider them people at all. They're things like everything outside of the Qun that isn't a Vashoth. :\

Offline Cold Heritage

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2015, 09:20:22 PM »


Handsome Jack and Hyperion Corporation all the way. Although, really, the only people who'd look at Handsome Jack and Hyperion and see "evil" or "morally grey" are bandits. Because Handsome Jack's a super cool guy who never did anything wrong.

Offline Nachtmahr

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2015, 09:46:35 PM »
I'd say the first incarnation of Akatsuki out of Naruto. (Well, Naruto Shippuden mostly.)



Without spoiling anything, and for those who don't know, the original Akatsuki was basically a sort of chaotic-neutral faction of extremely dangerous beyond-top-rank criminals who all left their respective villages/clans behind for different reasons, and then united under a single banner in the name of peace.

However, they way they wish to obtain said peace is really by following the philosophy of: 'Kill thousands to save millions.'

All the individuals are fairly interesting and unique and have their own reasons for joining up in the first place. One guy just wants to kill people with bounties on their heads in order to get rich, while another simply enjoys fighting. Another wants to obtain power, and yet another is just there because being alone in the shinobi-world is dangerous, and he needs to ally himself with people who don't care about the means through which he has obtained power. At the end of they day they're essentially extremely brutal anti-heroes, even if they don't exactly act like it. Their personalities are quite interesting too!

Offline Wajin

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2015, 05:05:33 AM »
Actually the Andrastian Chantry has the moderate approach.

The all-time abusers of mages goes to the Qun. They literally thing magic is spread by a mage's mere utterance, and if they're ever separated from their handlers they're killed outright. No matter what for or for how long.

They also sew their mouths shut or cut out their tongues and make them go around in heavy iron collars, head cages, and shackles beholden to the handler's control rod.

To top it all off the Qunari word for a mage is literally dangerous thing. They don't consider them people at all. They're things like everything outside of the Qun that isn't a Vashoth. :\

The really, really insane thing is that, in terms of destructive power, the saarebas  are some of the most powerful mages when it comes to share destructive power as they have no formal education and are all basically hedge mages whos "imagination" form their spells. And a person that's been treated like gaatlok for their entire lives can probably think of some really, really destructive things

Offline Zekromnomnom

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2015, 08:56:59 AM »
All this talk about Dragon Age makes me really think I need to finish the damn trilogy. There's so much you guys are talking about that I don't remember or never got to.

Online Jagerin

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2015, 01:20:58 PM »
All the individuals are fairly interesting and unique and have their own reasons for joining up in the first place. One guy just wants to kill people with bounties on their heads in order to get rich, while another simply enjoys fighting. Another wants to obtain power, and yet another is just there because being alone in the shinobi-world is dangerous, and he needs to ally himself with people who don't care about the means through which he has obtained power. At the end of they day they're essentially extremely brutal anti-heroes, even if they don't exactly act like it. Their personalities are quite interesting too!

What? No mention of the one that just likes to blow shit up? :P

Seriously though, I agree. I'd probably join them if Gai didn't want a new team member.

Offline Nachtmahr

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2015, 11:12:01 PM »
What? No mention of the one that just likes to blow shit up? :P

Seriously though, I agree. I'd probably join them if Gai didn't want a new team member.

You.. You like Naruto?

*Tears of joy*

We shall be friends forever!

But I totally see where you're coming from. :P I like Gai/Guy if only because he's a nice refreshing breath of air amongst all the brooding vengeful shinobi all over the place. :P

Offline Sabby

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2015, 03:46:52 PM »
I tend to side with the 'villains' more often then the 'heroes'. The hero is always some neanderthal roaring and stomping and waving his ultra-simplistic morality like it's actually something to be proud of, while the villains crime is to attempt a more logical but undeniably less moral course. I wouldn't so much mind if the good guys would at least pause and consider the bad guys stance and understand why they chose that path, but they don't budge, they just yell about how they're bad.

If you've played Mass Effect 3, let me put it this way. I didn't like what Illusive Man was doing, but he had more of a plan then the games hero. The 'good guy' was just rounding up a posse to go fight the unfightable threat, while the 'bad guy' was doing horrible things in an attempt to find an actually viable way to fight the threat. There was never a time when the 'good guy' would sit in private and doubt his conviction, or consider whether the 'bad guys' actions are a necessary evil, considering how dire the situation is, he just always has the moral high ground and unwavering conviction.

I seem to run into this a lot, and I've never met anyone else who shares my frustrations, but I suspect that I'm only this sympathetic towards the villain because the guy/girl/group that I'm supposed to be supporting is always pretty brutish and infantile. Am I the only one that finds it a bit insulting I'm expected to side with them?

Offline Lux12

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2015, 11:46:58 AM »
I tend to side with the 'villains' more often then the 'heroes'. The hero is always some neanderthal roaring and stomping and waving his ultra-simplistic morality like it's actually something to be proud of, while the villains crime is to attempt a more logical but undeniably less moral course. I wouldn't so much mind if the good guys would at least pause and consider the bad guys stance and understand why they chose that path, but they don't budge, they just yell about how they're bad.

If you've played Mass Effect 3, let me put it this way. I didn't like what Illusive Man was doing, but he had more of a plan then the games hero. The 'good guy' was just rounding up a posse to go fight the unfightable threat, while the 'bad guy' was doing horrible things in an attempt to find an actually viable way to fight the threat. There was never a time when the 'good guy' would sit in private and doubt his conviction, or consider whether the 'bad guys' actions are a necessary evil, considering how dire the situation is, he just always has the moral high ground and unwavering conviction.

I seem to run into this a lot, and I've never met anyone else who shares my frustrations, but I suspect that I'm only this sympathetic towards the villain because the guy/girl/group that I'm supposed to be supporting is always pretty brutish and infantile. Am I the only one that finds it a bit insulting I'm expected to side with them?

The point is that the player can find away to do what they're attempting to without doing said amoral things. The villain simply doubted or failed to recognize a better path. The villain is not always the most logical. Furthermore, in the case of Mass Effect, the PLAYER makes the choice. So in essence you are supposed to do all the doubting yourself if you feel there should be any. Your mind is to a certain degree the characters mind. Some times, the bad guy just makes the worst choice or at least ones that are worse than the hero. Good does not equal simple. It may simply be implied the hero has already done all of that thinking and now they have arrived at a conclusion. Furthermore, we don't exactly get the full psychological make up of the character or an intricately detailed description of their life experiences. Furthermore, having morals in a constant state of flux can be a sign of indecisiveness and if one is so utterly indecisive, they may accomplish nothing. Those who do not have firm convictions may very well be one without a personality or a mind of their own. However, in games as I said, YOU are often expected to be the one making those considerations. Furthermore, many works of fiction do go at length to explain why the antagonist is wrong.

Alternatively, I could go on about bad guys with overly simplistic motivations who seemingly do it just because it's evil with no particularly compelling rationalizations. Of which, there are plenty. Am I to stand with someone who just does things without even considering the detrimental consequences of their actions or side with the one who at least thinks at least a little about them?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2015, 11:49:58 AM by Lux12 »

Offline Sabby

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #38 on: February 03, 2015, 12:06:43 PM »
I don't really buy the "YOU are Shepherd" defense. Shepherd has no problem voicing her thoughts in cutscenes. She's all too comfortable calling the Illusive Man an evil person, so why should I have to just assume she 'may' have doubted her convictions in private, or secretly sympathized with the Illusive Man? I mean, they do show her doubting once, but it's not about whether or not The Illusive Man is doing what she won't, it's because she doesn't know if the posse she's rounding up will be big enough.

All I see here is a glorified thug, and it's not just with Mass Effect. There's plenty of great examples out there of well balanced heroes and villains, but mostly, I just see the one who can yell the simplest words the loudest being the hero.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2015, 12:16:59 PM »
Speaking of yelling loudly, I don't see anyone having mentioned Dr. Breen and his Combine sympathizers from Half-Life 2, and I should have thought of them earlier. An interdimensional alien empire has conquered Earth and set up a Macguffin field that prevents us from reproducing. The only way to preserve the human species is to get the Combine to lift the inhibitors, which means proving humans are useful for more than a temporary short-term slave soldier pool, which means cooperating with our alien overlords and elevating ourselves from conquered serfs to collaborating allies. If 'The Freeman' hadn't shown up, Breen's plans would literally be the only means of saving humanity.




And regards to heroes yelling louder, Gordon Freeman doesn't yell (or talk) at all. Though his crowbar does speak for him with a commanding voice. ;D

Offline Xenolord

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2015, 12:17:40 PM »
This is a dangerous subject for me to get on, but here it goes. The Groups go in the following order.

The Xenomorphs from the Alien Franchise. Anyone who knows anything about me should know why. Xenomorphs are biological perfection. Able to kill without stupid morals or emotions, they listen explicitly to their Queen and are not afraid of dying. Plus, face it. Xenomorphs are born with a mark on the kill board.

The Dark Kingdom from Sailor Moon. These bumbling idiots could use with a little dab of my ingenuity, I think. Whereas the so-called 'Generals' of the Dark Kingdom can focus on doing their jobs, they can leave the task of handling those pesky Sailor Senshi to a competent soldier.

The Garlean Empire from Final Fantasy XIV. Just to pilot this armor. Magitek stuff just looks cool... and let's face it, their fashion isn't anything to shirk at, either.

The Tuaparang from Golden Sun: Dark Dawn. Anti-Psynergy soldiers designed to blindly follow orders and kill any Adept they see. Plus, Chalis is a hell of a looker.

and finally, Clan Jade Falcon from the MechWarrior Franchise. I don't need a damn reason! Reasons are a waste of valuable resources! Get back to work, Freebirths!

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2015, 12:18:52 PM »
At least you didn't pick Smoke Jaguar.

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2015, 12:26:42 PM »
This is a dangerous subject for me to get on, but here it goes. The Groups go in the following order.

The Xenomorphs from the Alien Franchise. Anyone who knows anything about me should know why. Xenomorphs are biological perfection. Able to kill without stupid morals or emotions, they listen explicitly to their Queen and are not afraid of dying. Plus, face it. Xenomorphs are born with a mark on the kill board.
Does that really count for this question? The xenomorphs are just things. They're no more evil or good than an ant or a bee. They have no morals; they're just amoral killing machines.

They should probably be eradicated, but as for morals to sympathize or empathize with, they have none. 

Offline Sabby

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #43 on: February 03, 2015, 12:39:06 PM »
Speaking of yelling loudly, I don't see anyone having mentioned Dr. Breen and his Combine sympathizers from Half-Life 2, and I should have thought of them earlier. An interdimensional alien empire has conquered Earth and set up a Macguffin field that prevents us from reproducing. The only way to preserve the human species is to get the Combine to lift the inhibitors, which means proving humans are useful for more than a temporary short-term slave soldier pool, which means cooperating with our alien overlords and elevating ourselves from conquered serfs to collaborating allies. If 'The Freeman' hadn't shown up, Breen's plans would literally be the only means of saving humanity.




And regards to heroes yelling louder, Gordon Freeman doesn't yell (or talk) at all. Though his crowbar does speak for him with a commanding voice. ;D

Half Life 2 is a fantastic example. When Dr Breen explains why he does what he does, it makes sense. I'm still going to pick up a gun and fight the Combine, but I get it. An unstoppable army rolls into this dimension and subdues the entire planet in 7 hours. Now pretend you were the one they picked as Ambassador instead of Breen. What are you going to do, spur on unnecessary resistance, or try and preserve whats left of your species?

Hell, going back to Mass Effect, Saren is pretty much in the same boat. He see's exactly whats coming, knows beyond all doubt that resistance will only ensure extinction (this was before the Catalyst was a thing) and instead of just swinging a gun around and giving speeches, he takes what is to him the only sensible option and allies himself with the Reapers. Think about it, what was his crime in Mass Effect 1, which was the single reason for Shepherd tracking him down? He attacked a small colony.

Okay, I'm not defending mass murder, but GENOCIDE ROBOTS are coming. They kill all space faring civilizations periodically. If I saw what Saren saw, and knew that killing a few hundred humans might potentially save billions from all races, damn right I would kill the colonists. I wouldn't be happy about it, but Necessary Evil is exactly what it sounds like.

Basically, I tend to side with the villains because they make more sense then the hero. If the hero were just able to consider the villains reasoning before calling them a bag of dicks, I wouldn't mind so much.

Don't even get me started on Supernatural >.<

Does that really count for this question? The xenomorphs are just things. They're no more evil or good than an ant or a bee. They have no morals; they're just amoral killing machines.

They should probably be eradicated, but as for morals to sympathize or empathize with, they have none. 

I like food, and I like living, so I guess I agree with the Xenos.

Online Inkidu

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #44 on: February 03, 2015, 12:48:41 PM »
Okay, so... that fact doesn't change what I said.

They're not evil because they want to kill and eat. I mean it's not like they're killing us just to kill us. That would be evil. It's not even that human is their particular favorite food. They'll use cats, dogs, Elephant Jockeys.

Now to wit. They are not natural. They were created to eradicate life to continue their existence they don't belong or fit with any food chain because they're really just living weapons run amok. The aliens that created them are morally dubious, but a xenomorph is no more evil than a gun, but they probably should be removed. I mean if you believe they shouldn't be then are you one of those people who doesn't believe in vaccinations? They're the same thing: a virus.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2015, 12:53:24 PM »
It's always the question of do the ends justify the means. Does killing a couple hundred colonists justify the potential for saving everyone from extinction? Well, considering that I know NOW that in the end the reapers only want destruction of all the advanced species, no it wouldn't, because the reapers would have enslaved everyone to find everyone and kill everyone, which in the end doesn't help.

But are the reapers in the right then? They are merely keeping the Galaxy safe and ever running, only coming in once they know that the trail that civilized life is going will end in destruction of the galaxy. So do their means, the systematic destruction of every sentient species, justify their end, which is making sure that life in the galaxy carries on?

I say no. If the means end up with you being just as bad as what you're fighting, if not worse, it means that either you deserve to lose just as much as they other guys, and in the end it just becomes a fight of survival of the fittest. Which would turn us into basic animals and would turn us away from precisely what makes us humans in the first place.

Basically, one life should be just as valued as billions, because if one life doesn't have enough worth to be saved, why do billions? Or trillions?

Offline Sabby

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2015, 12:57:49 PM »
Okay, so... that fact doesn't change what I said.

They're not evil because they want to kill and eat. I mean it's not like they're killing us just to kill us. That would be evil. It's not even that human is their particular favorite food. They'll use cats, dogs, Elephant Jockeys.

Now to wit. They are not natural. They were created to eradicate life to continue their existence they don't belong or fit with any food chain because they're really just living weapons run amok. The aliens that created them are morally dubious, but a xenomorph is no more evil than a gun, but they probably should be removed. I mean if you believe they shouldn't be then are you one of those people who doesn't believe in vaccinations? They're the same thing: a virus.

All of that relies on Prometheus being canon, which I will deny irrationally. Ridley Scott can fight me if he wants.

Basically, one life should be just as valued as billions, because if one life doesn't have enough worth to be saved, why do billions? Or trillions?

1 life has as much value as trillions? Is that why we have a military that we endorse to kill hundreds in the defense of millions?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2015, 01:00:32 PM »
"One death is a tragedy. One million is a statistic." - (not actually) said by Joseph Stalin, one of the biggest mass murderers of the 20th century.

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Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2015, 01:07:26 PM »
All of that relies on Prometheus being canon, which I will deny irrationally. Ridley Scott can fight me if he wants.
Okay, fair point, but let's say they're a naturally occurring organism (which would probably be suspect because they simply are too perfect but that's beside the point). They still have a very viral nature about them, and they are just animals. So they're still amoral and we should definitely protect ourselves from them.

To provide an example:

Predators have morals, Aliens do not. Predators choose to hunt for sport, aliens hunt to propagate.

Offline Sabby

Re: Evil/Morally gray fictional groups youd ally with.
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2015, 01:09:19 PM »
I was joking, by the way xD