You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 08, 2016, 06:01:15 AM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: Manslamming  (Read 3671 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cycle

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #75 on: January 23, 2015, 07:33:00 AM »
Okay.  I would have figured that cross-examination was just the court's way of questioning people's accounts.  Could I ask you to elaborate on the differences between the two, and why one is acceptable and the other not?

Cross examination in court, in the U.S., is done by attorneys following very specific sets of rules:  e.g., the rules of evidence and the code of civil procedure.  You can't just ask any question and demand an answer.  And the witness can have their own attorney present to raise objections to invalid lines or methods of questioning, which means if you employ an improper line of questioning, you will be stopped.

The media doesn't have to follow those specific set of rules.  Nor does the general public.

After my first date, I attempted to kiss the girl, and she got all shy and backed away.  So I figured, okay, no kissing.  When she wants to kiss, she'll let me know.

No such notice was given with various other dates, and her roommate eventually flat out asked me why I didn't try to kiss her.

My hypothesis would be that it's considered socially unacceptable for the girl to make the advances, which leaves boys realizing that they have to keep attempting to do so or it won't happen at all.

Now, granted, most people aren't going to be like me where no once means never until I get notice otherwise, but that's the issue.

Perhaps part of the aid there would be in helping girls to understand that it's acceptable to ask out, to make the first move and so on?

Wait.  Why is your proposed "aid" to educate "the girls" on how they should behave? 

Why isn't the "aid" to educate "the boy" that he needs to take his cues from her, which may be subtle, and determine when to try again?

In other words, why try to change someone else and not yourself?

As for why she behaved the way she did, I think the answer is simple.  Kissing on a first date is less common.  Kissing on a fifth or sixth date is more common.  This is because that's what dates do:  they bring people together and make them feel more comfortable with each other.  And once people are more comfortable with each other, they are more receptive to being kissed.  Presumably your dates with her were successful.  Thus, by the time you reached later dates, she became more receptive to a kiss from you than she was on your first try.  She likely even signaled this to you.


« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 11:47:23 PM by Cycle »

Offline Shjade

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #76 on: January 23, 2015, 07:45:08 AM »
Wait.  Why is your proposed "aid" to educate "the girls" on how they should behave? 

Why isn't the "aid" to educate "the boy" that he needs to take his cues from her, which may be subtle, and determine when to try again?

In other words, why try to change someone else and not yourself?

As for why she behaved the way she did, I think the answer is simple.  Kissing on a first date is less common.  Kissing on a fifth or sixth date is more common.  This is because that's what dates do:  they bring people together and make them feel more comfortable with each other.  And once people are more comfortable with each other, they are more receptive to being kissed.  Presumably your dates with her were successful.  Thus, by the time you reached later dates, she became more receptive to a kiss from you than she was on your first try.  She likely even signaled this to you.
Saw this earlier today (...yesterday? oh gosh I need to sleep z.z), extremely relevant to this particular story/situation, with regard to the difficulties some men have in finding attractive women unapproachable/difficult.


Source article here on the Daily Dot. The piece as a whole is a bit more inflammatory than it probably needs to be, but it still makes valid points.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2015, 08:05:11 AM »
Accused is different from convicted.  Successfully accusing someone does not mean they were successfully convicted.  Being wrongfully convicted and being raped is still odd for me and probably would depend on the various levels.  Considering though that rape can and does lead to death, I might still consider rape worse.  As I said though, this is a reflection of what you as a man feel is a danger to you and what I as a woman feel is a danger to me.

Feminism is not simply a political movement, but is also an ideological approach.  From literature to sociology and politics, feminism is more than simply a movement.  There are going to be fringe elements to feminism and there are going to be controversial studies done that lead to even more unwelcome theories and statements.  Shying away from the uncomfortable does not strengthen feminism and there is simply going to have to be acceptance that the media will highlight the idiotic.  Like finding a redneck a tornado, the media enjoys honing in on those that will garner attention which tend to be the ones spouting nonsense.  Silencing people does little to strengthen feminism.  Having actual dialogue and healthy debate does strengthen feminism along with research and solid findings.  Manslamming, as was pointed out, may indeed be a thing.  There just hasnít been enough research yet to solidify a theory. 

Offline AndyZ

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2015, 08:52:28 AM »
Cross examination in court, in America, is done by attorneys following very specific sets of rules:  e.g., the rules of evidence and the code of civil procedure.  You can't just ask any question and demand an answer.  And the witness can have their own attorney present to raise objections to invalid lines or methods of questioning, which means if you employ an improper line of questioning, you will be stopped.

The media doesn't have to follow those specific set of rules.  Nor does the general public.

Shjade, would you agree with this answer?

Quote
Wait.  Why is your proposed "aid" to educate "the girls" on how they should behave? 

Why isn't the "aid" to educate "the boy" that he needs to take his cues from her, which may be subtle, and determine when to try again?

In other words, why try to change someone else and not yourself?

Are you implying that anyone who has something happen should first stop and consider what they did wrong, as opposed to how they can spread awareness to everyone?

If you want to go this route, I guess you should push for the saying of "No only means not today," but doing so would carry its own problems.

Quote
As for why she behaved the way she did, I think the answer is simple.  Kissing on a first date is less common.  Kissing on a fifth or sixth date is more common.  This is because that's what dates do:  they bring people together and make them feel more comfortable with each other.  And once people are more comfortable with each other, they are more receptive to being kissed.  Presumably your dates with her were successful.  Thus, by the time you reached later dates, she became more receptive to a kiss from you than she was on your first try.  She likely even signaled this to you.

Oh, true, but it still puts her at the disadvantage where the male has all the power in the relationship and can decide how far things are going to do.  She's ultimately left up to my whims for if/when I want to do things, because she's not empowered to make her own advances.

Saw this earlier today (...yesterday? oh gosh I need to sleep z.z), extremely relevant to this particular story/situation, with regard to the difficulties some men have in finding attractive women unapproachable/difficult.


Source article here on the Daily Dot. The piece as a whole is a bit more inflammatory than it probably needs to be, but it still makes valid points.

Which creates a vicious cycle, the only way out of which I can see is if females do more things which would create equality.  By this list, acting overly flirty and the like.  Culture gets changed by enough people doing something unusual that it becomes the norm, or by demonstrations like in television where people grow up seeing something and decide that it's now socially acceptable.

The only reason it seems odd to see men in skirts here but not in Scotland is because it's done in Scotland but not done here.

Accused is different from convicted.  Successfully accusing someone does not mean they were successfully convicted.  Being wrongfully convicted and being raped is still odd for me and probably would depend on the various levels.  Considering though that rape can and does lead to death, I might still consider rape worse.  As I said though, this is a reflection of what you as a man feel is a danger to you and what I as a woman feel is a danger to me.

Feminism is not simply a political movement, but is also an ideological approach.  From literature to sociology and politics, feminism is more than simply a movement.  There are going to be fringe elements to feminism and there are going to be controversial studies done that lead to even more unwelcome theories and statements.  Shying away from the uncomfortable does not strengthen feminism and there is simply going to have to be acceptance that the media will highlight the idiotic.  Like finding a redneck a tornado, the media enjoys honing in on those that will garner attention which tend to be the ones spouting nonsense.  Silencing people does little to strengthen feminism.  Having actual dialogue and healthy debate does strengthen feminism along with research and solid findings.  Manslamming, as was pointed out, may indeed be a thing.  There just hasnít been enough research yet to solidify a theory. 

Granted that I don't have the same fear of death as an average person, but I would expect that "raped" implies "raped and not murdered."  It's very easy to expect that your average person would much prefer "wrongfully convicted" than "raped and murdered."

We had a lot of people who were rather vocal before with their info on how it wasn't actually a thing, but they seem to have vanished.

As far as manspreading, I'm very reminded of the thing where some airlines were considering making obese passengers buy two seats.  If we accept that men are on average larger than women, it's not difficult to see how they'd take up more space.

If I were to hypothesize on "manslamming," then the people who don't mind getting bumped into are the ones who are more likely to bump into others.  This would be people who are used to crowded areas and don't want as much personal space.

Amusingly, I'd expect just the opposite for "manspreading."  Someone who spreads out that much obviously wants a lot of personal space and doesn't like getting crowded in as much.

They are similar, though, in that you're apt to get bumped a lot in either case.  In that instance, people who don't care about getting bumped and such are more apt to have these behaviors.

Offline Cycle

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2015, 09:57:34 AM »
Are you implying that anyone who has something happen should first stop and consider what if they did something wrong or if they may have misunderstood the situation, as opposed to how they can spread awareness to everyone?

Subject to the clarifications above, absolutely yes.


Oh, true, but it still puts her at the disadvantage where the male has all the power in the relationship and can decide how far things are going to do.  She's ultimately left up to my whims for if/when I want to do things, because she's not empowered to make her own advances.

I don't see how this follows from what I wrote.  In the explanation I wrote, the woman is empowered to make her own advances.  And she likely did.  The man just might not have understood the advances.


Offline AndyZ

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2015, 10:08:00 AM »
Subject to the clarifications above, absolutely yes.

Oh, with those clarifications, I've already done so.  However, it doesn't really help people who go by different processes of thought than I do.

You already know I'm nine kinds of weird.

Quote
I don't see how this follows from what I wrote.  In the explanation I wrote, the woman is empowered to make her own advances.  And she likely did.  The man just might not have understood the advances.

Not everyone has the social graces and talents to spot such nuances.  If we go by the stereotype that a woman has to just subtly hint at something and can't outright say it, she ends up at the mercy of the man who gets to decide when and if to continue.

I may have given the indication that I was upset with this girl, but I was happy for the input that she did want me to try again, even if it came from the roommate.

By contrast, a lot of people have absolutely no idea how common is common, and they may well interpret any number of things as signals to continue.

Nor am I saying it's something all women do.  I even heard a thing on the radio station a couple days ago about one girl calling up and asking how to ask a guy out.  I applaud her for taking that initiative.  Considering how shy I was in high school, I'm not sure I'd have ever made the first move.

Offline Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: Manslamming
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2015, 10:12:05 AM »
There was a point in history where social graces were something that were taught just as much as math and English.  Considering the manners that I see in the little Oni's middle-school, we could probably stand having that reinstated somewhere.  -__-

Offline Cycle

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2015, 11:25:04 AM »
Not everyone has the social graces and talents to spot such nuances.  If we go by the stereotype that a woman has to just subtly hint at something and can't outright say it, she ends up at the mercy of the man who gets to decide when and if to continue.

See, here is the thing.  He may not be able to spot such nuance, but why does she have to change how she communicates with him?  Maybe a solution is for him to learn how to spot nuances.

Also, pointing out that he may need to learn how to spot nuances, is not the same thing as saying she must only communicate through nuances and that she can't--as in, is forbidden from--outright saying it.  It is simply pointing out that nuances are a form of communication that is used, which apparently he didn't understand.  There is a distinction.

Should he continue to not understand and insist that she change her behavior?

Or should he try to understand?


Online Silk

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2015, 12:29:15 PM »
See, here is the thing.  He may not be able to spot such nuance, but why does she have to change how she communicates with him?  Maybe a solution is for him to learn how to spot nuances.

Also, pointing out that he may need to learn how to spot nuances, is not the same thing as saying she must only communicate through nuances and that she can't--as in, is forbidden from--outright saying it.  It is simply pointing out that nuances are a form of communication that is used, which apparently he didn't understand.  There is a distinction.

Should he continue to not understand and insist that she change her behavior?

Or should he try to understand?

But this also leads to other issues of the need for "no means no" instead of "This implies this, or this or this or this, or maybe yes or maybe no" if you want your intentions respected, then it's a matter of respect for them to be clear and without misinterpretation in the first place. When I want a chocolate bar that's sitting on the side, I don't then keep making a mass of benign actions that may be interpreted differently, I ask if I can have the chocolate bar.

Offline AndyZ

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2015, 12:35:40 PM »
She doesn't have to change; I would just encourage it if she's using lots of nuance that he's not picking up.

One of the big difficulties is that it's not so easy for people to just naturally pick up on social skills.  Another is that most don't really recognize their skill level.

I would consider myself the exception in that I actively seek feedback, and that I accept "no" from the get go.  How common is it going to be to have people who pick up on some, any, sign that they perceive, which is going to irritate the girl to no end when she already said no?

We also end up with the issue that only people who are actively seeking a solution usually end up finding one.

For many guys, this is a done deal.  If you don't have the social expertise to read the subtle hints she gives you, just keep trying until she says yes.  Many guys openly admit that they don't pick up on body language, to the point where it's stereotypically considered to be a female trait to be able to do so to any serious degree.

Thus, no becomes "try harder later," which is already stated as a problem.

I personally believe it would be easier for society to make it more socially acceptable for girls to invite the next step (which has already been stated as a problem) than to try to teach all the men to pick up on all the subtle nuances of body language.

But this also leads to other issues of the need for "no means no" instead of "This implies this, or this or this or this, or maybe yes or maybe no" if you want your intentions respected, then it's a matter of respect for them to be clear and without misinterpretation in the first place. When I want a chocolate bar that's sitting on the side, I don't then keep making a mass of benign actions that may be interpreted differently, I ask if I can have the chocolate bar.

Silk, that's because you're awesome.

I quite literally on Christmas 2013 had my mom whisper to me to give a chocolate bar to my sister because she wanted it but would not ask for it, and I didn't happen to be looking in her direction when she did some sort of body language thing.

Given the choice, I would much rather "I'll tell you when I'm ready" than "Watch my signals and make your best guess."

Offline Cycle

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2015, 12:47:26 PM »
For many guys, this is a done deal.  If you don't have the social expertise to read the subtle hints she gives you, just keep trying until she says yes.  Many guys openly admit that they don't pick up on body language, to the point where it's stereotypically considered to be a female trait to be able to do so to any serious degree.

Thus, no becomes "try harder later," which is already stated as a problem.

*facepalms*

How do you even get to this conclusion from what I wrote...

I pointed out that women can send signals to men encouraging them to try a kiss on a later date. 

You and Silk read this as: a man should just keep trying to kiss her over and over regardless of what she says???

No.

A man should be aware of the lines of communications that are open.  And if those signals are not positive, then leave her alone.

If you don't get a positive signal, stop. 

If you don't understand the signals, stop.  And learn.

If you can't learn, then good luck.


Offline Deamonbane

  • A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Location: The world would be a sadder place without stories.
  • Gender: Male
  • Make me smile...
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Manslamming
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2015, 01:32:49 PM »
What... is there a book somewhere with all the signals written out? Like a step by step. 'Women's Signals to Men and What They Mean for Dummies'?

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2015, 01:51:01 PM »
If there is, then I want the Men's Signals to Women.

Offline Shjade

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2015, 04:29:44 PM »
What... is there a book somewhere with all the signals written out? Like a step by step. 'Women's Signals to Men and What They Mean for Dummies'?

Yes.

It has one page with one sentence on it:

"Pay attention to the person in front of you, not what you want to do to her."


Andy? Stop trying to make this about me. Thanks.

Offline Deamonbane

  • A cynic by experience, a romantic by inclination and now a hero by necessity.
  • Knight
  • Addict
  • *
  • Join Date: Oct 2012
  • Location: The world would be a sadder place without stories.
  • Gender: Male
  • Make me smile...
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: Manslamming
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2015, 09:12:21 PM »
Right. Helpful book too.

Offline AndyZ

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2015, 04:04:36 AM »
*facepalms*

How do you even get to this conclusion from what I wrote...

I pointed out that women can send signals to men encouraging them to try a kiss on a later date. 

You and Silk read this as: a man should just keep trying to kiss her over and over regardless of what she says???

No.

A man should be aware of the lines of communications that are open.  And if those signals are not positive, then leave her alone.

If you don't get a positive signal, stop. 

If you don't understand the signals, stop.  And learn.

If you can't learn, then good luck.

Cycle, I think I see where I'm confusing you.

Sometimes I present an argument made by other people in an attempt to let you disprove it.  Sometimes it's something I believe, and sometimes not.  Most often there is a parallel to the discussion at hand which I can demonstrate.

I'm sure you've seen me do this.  Please don't assume that they're my personal beliefs.

I had a discussion with someone I consider very intelligent yesterday regarding what it would take for me to kill myself, even though I'm obviously not going to do it and it's a mortal sin by my religion.

I'm not arrogant enough to believe that everyone does or even should share my belief structure.

Just felt that'd help to clarify.



Now, one option is to just tell all boys this:

Quote
A man should be aware of the lines of communications that are open.  And if those signals are not positive, then leave her alone.

If you don't get a positive signal, stop. 

If you don't understand the signals, stop.  And learn.

If you can't learn, then good luck.

Let's consider how well that will work.

Now, we already know that some people are willing to learn and improve and others are not.  The latter will simply ignore that message, and the former will try their best.

It's unfortunate that we can't just tell say things and expect people to stop doing them.  If it worked, I'm sure someone would have carved out some rules like "Don't murder" on a stone tablet somewhere and the world would be a much better place without people murdering each other.

There's a term "preaching to the choir," and my interpretation is that it talks about how we must address the people who are interested in learning and improving.

I believe I can speak for Silk and I know I can speak for myself when I say that I think it'd be really nice if that worked, but it does not.

I would also consider it rather demeaning to women to say that it's all on men.  However, I realize that that's your belief, and if you find a woman that is perfectly happy giving signals and not actually speaking her desires, I do not hope for any ills upon either of you.

I would also add, and clearly denote that it's not sarcastic just in case it comes across that way, that I hope you wrote a book on body language.  I've studied up on it to some degree, but most of what I've read does not hold true across an entire gender.

Andy? Stop trying to make this about me. Thanks.

It's really coming to my attention lately that I expect more of some people than they're capable of providing.  I apologize and will leave you be.

Offline Cycle

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2015, 08:37:43 AM »
Sometimes I present an argument made by other people in an attempt to let you disprove it.  Sometimes it's something I believe, and sometimes not.  ...  Please don't assume that they're my personal beliefs.

If you present an argument that you do not believe in or disagree with, you should say so.  Because if you don't believe in it, why should anyone bother to "disprove it" for you?  You can do it yourself.

But the problem I have with your response above wasn't that it was an argument, but rather a complete twisting of my words.  I did not say what you claim I said. 

I would also consider it rather demeaning to women to say that it's all on men.  However, I realize that that's your belief, and if you find a woman that is perfectly happy giving signals and not actually speaking her desires, I do not hope for any ills upon either of you.

Now, give then green highlighted statement, the above is your belief.

Now, give then red highlighted statement, you believe that I said it is all on men.  This is patently false.  Read what I wrote.

Now, give then orange highlighted statement, you believe that I am looking for or with a woman that never speaks her desires and only gives signal.  This is flat out wrong.  You don't know the first thing about my personal life.  Not who I work with.  Not who I spend my time with.  Not who I am intimate with.


You're right.  There are people that won't listen.  You keep twisting my words around to something else instead of hearing what I am saying.  What I was trying to show you--i.e., the importance of trying to learn to understand another person through more than just direct communication--could have helped you.  Now all I can say is, good luck.


Offline AndyZ

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2015, 10:25:41 AM »
Ultimately it's because I'm just not very intelligent.  I try to fight against that, but I'm sure it's obvious.

Other people see and understand things which I don't, even when they're so blindingly obvious that they figure I must be mocking or insulting them when I ask about them.

So, like, I child, I usually just end up asking "Why?  Why?" over and over again, breaking things down and trying to make it fit into my brain.

When I was little, I was completely baffled by the idea that I was not only allowed but supposed to take candy from strangers on Halloween but never any other time.  It made no sense to me that it's good to do so one day out of the year and bad to do so any other day.  It's just self-evident to everyone else.

What I try to do is compare and contrast the various ideas with which I'm presented.  What really baffles me is how often the two answers don't match up between two separate individuals, but I can only guess as to why that is.

People keep thinking that I'm trying to distort their arguments, but I'm just trying to whittle at things by trying to figure out what is and isn't, and why.

Mark Twain said that it's better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt, or something like that.  I've found, though, that if I don't open up and ask questions, I just end up being perpetually ignorant.

On some threads, people are okay with it and realize I'm not trying to upset anyone, but around here, I upset people, and I'm sorry.

Offline Cycle

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2015, 10:58:13 AM »
For what it is worth, AndyZ, I don't think you are not very intelligent.  Rather, from seeing what and how you write, I would say you are rather intelligent. 

But you seem to see things in more binary terms:  this is good, that is bad.

Most issues, and virtually every person, operate more as gradients.  Instead of black and white, there are greens, red, yellows, magentas, cyans, etc.

In this specific context, I was trying to encourage you to try harder to pick up a woman's signals.  That's it.  I wasn't saying that is the only women can, should or must communicate.  Nor was I suggesting that until a man gets an outright "no!" and a fist to the nose, he should just bull on ahead assuming that everything he did was welcomed.

Now, why was I trying to encourage you to do that?  Because you mentioned that you had an experience where you didn't realize the woman was more receptive to you giving her a kiss later, even if she didn't want a kiss the first time you tried.  That's all. 

You can't extrapolate from one recommendation an universal rule applicable to all people, in all environments, addressing every type of interaction, without regard for exceptions or variations.

Yes, that means you are going to have to keep assessing every situation you meet and likely having to figure out a new way to deal with each situation.  And yes, that makes life harder than easier.  But succeeding in life isn't supposed to be easy. 

You are trying.  So you're already more than half way there.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2015, 11:01:04 AM by Cycle »

Online Silk

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2015, 11:17:40 AM »
For what it is worth, AndyZ, I don't think you are not very intelligent.  Rather, from seeing what and how you write, I would say you are rather intelligent. 

But you seem to see things in more binary terms:  this is good, that is bad.

Most issues, and virtually every person, operate more as gradients.  Instead of black and white, there are greens, red, yellows, magentas, cyans, etc.

In this specific context, I was trying to encourage you to try harder to pick up a woman's signals.  That's it.  I wasn't saying that is the only women can, should or must communicate.  Nor was I suggesting that until a man gets an outright "no!" and a fist to the nose, he should just bull on ahead assuming that everything he did was welcomed.

Now, why was I trying to encourage you to do that?  Because you mentioned that you had an experience where you didn't realize the woman was more receptive to you giving her a kiss later, even if she didn't want a kiss the first time you tried.  That's all. 

You can't extrapolate from one recommendation an universal rule applicable to all people, in all environments, addressing every type of interaction, without regard for exceptions or variations.

Yes, that means you are going to have to keep assessing every situation you meet and likely having to figure out a new way to deal with each situation.  And yes, that makes life harder than easier.  But succeeding in life isn't supposed to be easy. 

You are trying.  So you're already more than half way there.

But again this is the two way street scenario, it's down to both parties to make their needs wants and what have you aware to the other party. If there is ambiguity, there is a chance of miscommunication, which could lead to a undesired result, not saying it's all men or all women, were BOTH responsible for that clear communication.

 Let's use an example, If I could speak Japanese, and went to Japan, but when I went into the shop I only spoke English because I was not comfortable with my Japanese and expected the person I was speaking to to be able to understand my body language and my English, the end result is that the person I was speaking to mistook what I wanted and got something else instead, is it really the other persons fault that due to my insecurity that I didn't speak Japanese to them and as a result, didn't get the result I wanted?

Offline Cycle

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #95 on: January 24, 2015, 12:26:07 PM »
If there is ambiguity, there is a chance of miscommunication, which could lead to a undesired result, not saying it's all men or all women, were BOTH responsible for that clear communication.

I agree with this. 

And in the example presented, I believe the woman did take steps to communicate to the man that she wanted him to try to kiss her again, via the roommate.  Certainly she could have employed faster or more direct methods as well--including just kissing him herself.

In the store example, I think that would be akin to the shopper asking another person who was fluent in both English and Japanese to tell the store owner what the shopper wanted.


Offline eternaldarkness

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #96 on: February 01, 2015, 04:43:03 AM »
Ultimately it's because I'm just not very intelligent.  I try to fight against that, but I'm sure it's obvious.

Other people see and understand things which I don't, even when they're so blindingly obvious that they figure I must be mocking or insulting them when I ask about them.

So, like, I child, I usually just end up asking "Why?  Why?" over and over again, breaking things down and trying to make it fit into my brain.

When I was little, I was completely baffled by the idea that I was not only allowed but supposed to take candy from strangers on Halloween but never any other time.  It made no sense to me that it's good to do so one day out of the year and bad to do so any other day.  It's just self-evident to everyone else.

What I try to do is compare and contrast the various ideas with which I'm presented.  What really baffles me is how often the two answers don't match up between two separate individuals, but I can only guess as to why that is.

People keep thinking that I'm trying to distort their arguments, but I'm just trying to whittle at things by trying to figure out what is and isn't, and why.

Mark Twain said that it's better to keep your mouth shut and have people think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt, or something like that.  I've found, though, that if I don't open up and ask questions, I just end up being perpetually ignorant.

On some threads, people are okay with it and realize I'm not trying to upset anyone, but around here, I upset people, and I'm sorry.

Question everything, and never, ever stop asking questions. Asking questions is how you learn, and only corpses learn nothing.

Offline Garuss VakarianTopic starter

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #97 on: February 07, 2015, 04:03:24 AM »
Saw this earlier today (...yesterday? oh gosh I need to sleep z.z), extremely relevant to this particular story/situation, with regard to the difficulties some men have in finding attractive women unapproachable/difficult.


Source article here on the Daily Dot. The piece as a whole is a bit more inflammatory than it probably needs to be, but it still makes valid points.

Shjade: Neat article piece, but sadly such things can never be truly known. Not only is such a world probably beyond our life time, but the benefit's claimed could very well not happen. Perhaps even the opposite can happen? The empowerment women feel  makes them less inclined to do the flirting.  Who truly knows? (After all, look on the boards, and it is easy to see more females lean towards being subversive then assertive. In relationships I mean. Top bottom, who takes the lead, who says hi to whom first. Most want pandered to not to be the panderer. To be the one who is seeked, not the seeker.  so to speak. Yes some are switch, some are dom. But most either say only sub, or sub proffered. Not to say all women want a MR.Grey, just saying most like it when they are the ones being courted. lol . )

Glad to see this has actually stayed relevant. By the point where I last checked it, it seemed everyone was content with opinions sent. It is always cool to see things are talked about. Opinions aside, I find it pertinent for there to be a subject to begin with. Kind of like with that Hatred controversy. Opinion doesn't matter, it was a very good thing that it was a subject to begin with. If no one talks about it, then it is scary, because if it is not controversial then it is not considered relevant. And as using Hatred in my example, such levels of violence in media should always be relevant. So should high levels of hate, bigotry, or ignorance be relevant. As eternal Darkness so appropriately said. Always ask questions. And to it I will add: Never conform to what others say just because it is a popular opinion, or because you feel one side is more convincing. Stop, look at the evidence, and discover for yourself. Don't let any one tell you what side is right or wrong and what opinions you should share. Some people in the world will like to strike their points of view over your head with a figurative hammer saying their right listen to no other opinion. And if they do, it should make you question their motives more.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2015, 04:10:14 AM by Garuss Vakarian »

Offline AndyZ

Re: Manslamming
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2015, 03:18:36 PM »
For what it is worth, AndyZ, I don't think you are not very intelligent.  Rather, from seeing what and how you write, I would say you are rather intelligent. 

But you seem to see things in more binary terms:  this is good, that is bad.

Most issues, and virtually every person, operate more as gradients.  Instead of black and white, there are greens, red, yellows, magentas, cyans, etc.

In this specific context, I was trying to encourage you to try harder to pick up a woman's signals.  That's it.  I wasn't saying that is the only women can, should or must communicate.  Nor was I suggesting that until a man gets an outright "no!" and a fist to the nose, he should just bull on ahead assuming that everything he did was welcomed.

Now, why was I trying to encourage you to do that?  Because you mentioned that you had an experience where you didn't realize the woman was more receptive to you giving her a kiss later, even if she didn't want a kiss the first time you tried.  That's all. 

You can't extrapolate from one recommendation an universal rule applicable to all people, in all environments, addressing every type of interaction, without regard for exceptions or variations.

Yes, that means you are going to have to keep assessing every situation you meet and likely having to figure out a new way to deal with each situation.  And yes, that makes life harder than easier.  But succeeding in life isn't supposed to be easy. 

You are trying.  So you're already more than half way there.

I think I got you.

The example I gave was from 2002, and I thought I made it clear that I'd learned from it.  You didn't pick up on that and wanted to give the notice that I should consider for the future, and I didn't pick up on that you were trying to give a specific instance and not a general principle?

Question everything, and never, ever stop asking questions. Asking questions is how you learn, and only corpses learn nothing.

When my high school teacher started teaching Socrates, he actually instantly pointed me out as someone who was going to love it, and he was right...to a point, at least.  I have a harder time getting in on the actual stuff discussed but I consider it a rare pleasure when I can have those kinds of debates.

Shjade: Neat article piece, but sadly such things can never be truly known. Not only is such a world probably beyond our life time, but the benefit's claimed could very well not happen. Perhaps even the opposite can happen? The empowerment women feel  makes them less inclined to do the flirting.  Who truly knows? (After all, look on the boards, and it is easy to see more females lean towards being subversive then assertive. In relationships I mean. Top bottom, who takes the lead, who says hi to whom first. Most want pandered to not to be the panderer. To be the one who is seeked, not the seeker.  so to speak. Yes some are switch, some are dom. But most either say only sub, or sub proffered. Not to say all women want a MR.Grey, just saying most like it when they are the ones being courted. lol . )

Glad to see this has actually stayed relevant. By the point where I last checked it, it seemed everyone was content with opinions sent. It is always cool to see things are talked about. Opinions aside, I find it pertinent for there to be a subject to begin with. Kind of like with that Hatred controversy. Opinion doesn't matter, it was a very good thing that it was a subject to begin with. If no one talks about it, then it is scary, because if it is not controversial then it is not considered relevant. And as using Hatred in my example, such levels of violence in media should always be relevant. So should high levels of hate, bigotry, or ignorance be relevant. As eternal Darkness so appropriately said. Always ask questions. And to it I will add: Never conform to what others say just because it is a popular opinion, or because you feel one side is more convincing. Stop, look at the evidence, and discover for yourself. Don't let any one tell you what side is right or wrong and what opinions you should share. Some people in the world will like to strike their points of view over your head with a figurative hammer saying their right listen to no other opinion. And if they do, it should make you question their motives more.


Insulated opinion seems to be an issue inherent (though not exclusive) to the Internet.

In Ancient Greece, we had these kinds of talks out in the open, where other people could step up and provide an instant debate.

In colonial America, people would do similar types of things in pubs.  With the printing press, however, newspapers were harder to debate.

With the Internet, people just post their stuff and maybe there's a comments section, but it's rare for the person writing the article to reply to the comments.

I can't help but be reminded of a legal thing I saw in high school which talked about how in a courtroom, the prosecution showed one part of a video, and the defense showed another part, but they wouldn't just show the whole video in its entirety for the jury.  In a good debate, everything gets revealed.

People gave Bill Nye a hard time for having a debate with Ken Ham, but I agree that anyone with strong enough convictions should be happy to compare and contrast in the hopes of both ascertaining the truth and letting each side be displayed without hyperbole.