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Author Topic: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)  (Read 6721 times)

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Online Geeklet

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2015, 06:34:56 PM »
Braids and Rofellos were perfectly fine as part of the 99; but it seems silly to just ban them when they were perfectly fine as they were. Same with Erayo - she's easy enough to deal with when she's being resolved, after all.

I do agree with this. But the rules committee decided to trim things down into just one ban list to make things easier, and they ended up getting the axe alltogether. It is what it is.

Yes, do explain why Emrakul shouldn't be banned. Resolving him is difficult enough - cheating him out loses you the extra turn, which is the important part of the spell - and there's no reason why he, and not the other Eldrazi Titans, or Blightsteel Colossus aren't. And honestly, how do you resolve him outside of green ramp (which still takes forever)? Monoblack devotion (haha, no)? Five colour Maelstrom Archangel?

Its the extra turn and the protection and the flying and the huge annihilator and the cant be countered. All in a format that lasts long enough for him to be cast. Resolving him in commander is not as difficult as you might think.

Online Sprikut

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #76 on: January 26, 2015, 07:06:51 PM »
as a person with a modern deck that can semi consistently cast him on turn 4.. emrakul really isnt as hard to resolve as one might expect.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #77 on: January 26, 2015, 07:12:13 PM »
... Elvish Piper? ;D

Offline CountessJess

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #78 on: January 26, 2015, 07:18:08 PM »
I do agree with this. But the rules committee decided to trim things down into just one ban list to make things easier, and they ended up getting the axe alltogether. It is what it is.

It is a silly reason. It's essentially them saying 'we can't be bothered to upkeep two lists, so BAN.

Its the extra turn and the protection and the flying and the huge annihilator and the cant be countered. All in a format that lasts long enough for him to be cast. Resolving him in commander is not as difficult as you might think.

In truth, my group has played with him in commander to try him out, and he never was any more effective than any other big fat, 10 mana spell. The only deck that really could resolve him efficiently to actually take advantage was Jhoira. Other than that at most he's an uncounterable extra turn card - for fifteen mana.

as a person with a modern deck that can semi consistently cast him on turn 4.. emrakul really isnt as hard to resolve as one might expect.

You don't have anywhere near the redundancy of 60 card, 4 copies to run an effective Tron deck in modern. If that was the case then we should be banning Pyromancer's Ascension and Jeskai Ascendency in EDH.

... Elvish Piper? ;D

Elvish Piper puts into play, not casts, so you don't get the extra turn. Big difference.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #79 on: January 26, 2015, 07:36:12 PM »
... I'd also convinced myself Elvish Piper cost less than it did. Well, screw that.

It made me think of something else, though: Isn't turn 4 pretty slow for a Modern deck? My standard deck can win reliably by turn 5, so ... I don't know.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #80 on: January 26, 2015, 08:43:38 PM »
Or cheat Emarkul out with polymorph. Run tokens.

Or do the manifest cloudshift combo. You won't get extra turn, but you will have Emarkul.

Also, isn't Emarkul only banned as General? I thought he was still legal to be in the deck, but not as a general. I know(believe) Griseland is banned outright in EDH.

Edit: There is also Quicksilver Amulet. I used to use it to bring out Emarkul. Why pay 15 when I can pay 4(think it was.) But it puts into play and not cast. Which, they can't counter since it is an ability and you aren't 'casting,' you are 'putting.' I'll just put this here 15/15 pro all colors onto field. ;o Don't worry, I'll swing next turn with flying and annihilator(what did he have again, six?)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 08:48:40 PM by Drake Valentine »

Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #81 on: January 26, 2015, 08:48:31 PM »
Dude.

Hideaway Lands. ;D

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #82 on: January 26, 2015, 08:51:18 PM »
Dude.

Hideaway Lands. ;D

Never heard of them, but after looking them up.

Yeeeep. Those are totally Commander legal. They work too, assuming if he is in top four, guess you can run multi color and do a loooot of scrying or something.

Edit: Also they are modern legal...... Hmm. Not sure how much they run for though, but if not a lot, I might abuse them.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #83 on: January 26, 2015, 08:53:43 PM »
Progenitus as Commander. Play ALL THE COLORS.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #84 on: January 26, 2015, 09:00:37 PM »
Hideaway is confusing bit to me.

So is the card just permanently exiled and can be used at any time for that color once conditions are bet? It can only be used once, correct or can the exile be reused, assuming the former. >.> I don't play with exile much or against, so not sure how those rulings go. Also does land have to stay on battlefield(assuming) for it to work?

Online Geeklet

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #85 on: January 26, 2015, 09:05:46 PM »
You can only activate it if the land is still on the battlefield. And if it is activated when the conditions are met, you cast it for free (besides the activation cost on the land) so any X spells are considered x=0, but it is a 1 time casting.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #86 on: January 26, 2015, 09:12:24 PM »
You can only activate it if the land is still on the battlefield. And if it is activated when the conditions are met, you cast it for free (besides the activation cost on the land) so any X spells are considered x=0, but it is a 1 time casting.

Fair enough, that makes sense. ^^ 

Just reading some of their rulings was confusing since red one had something about it can still be activated if land wasn't on field.

By its rulings

Quote
10/1/2007    At the time the last ability resolves, you'll get to play the card if a player who is currently your opponent, or a player who was your opponent at the time he or she left the game, has been dealt 7 damage over the course of the turn.
10/1/2007    It doesn't matter how the opponent was dealt damage or by whom, as long as the total damage is 7 or more. You don't specify an opponent when you activate the ability.
10/1/2007    You'll get to play the card even if Spinerock Knoll wasn't on the battlefield at the time some or all of the 7 damage was dealt.

Source

Unless by the last rule they meant doing seven damage and then playing the land/casting.. But the land enters tapped and you need to tap and cast its ability. Or get more complicated by having things to untap it and then tap use ability.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 09:14:04 PM by Drake Valentine »

Online Geeklet

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #87 on: January 26, 2015, 09:18:08 PM »
Yeah, that ruling is there in case you can get it into play and untap it on that same turn.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #88 on: January 26, 2015, 09:26:08 PM »
Hmmmm...

I am surprise they are pretty 'cheap' in value. I mean, you basically 'scry' four, exile one, and can cast it for that color for conditions met, which most are easily done. The black one, maybe not as much due to it involves each player having no hand unless you discard out while discarding opponent which is tricky in itself. Plus they aren't really legendary, so you can easily run playsets in modern. Only drawback is entering tapped, but that may not be as bad if you turn one it for quick search. Could be good, could be bad, could be game changing.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2015, 09:27:18 PM »
With the proper Hideaway land ( Windbrisk Heights is lovely ), you could get anything out ridiculously early. If you're prepared to lay down some serious cash, T2 Emrakul could be a reality ( T3 is trivially easy ). Countering would be fairly easy, too ( and worst case, your Emrakul stays exiled ), but ... I think I'd risk it.

Suddenly I'm reminded of why I don't play the older formats.

Offline Drake Valentine

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2015, 09:34:43 PM »
Yes, but can they counter him then? I thought he was uncounterable or does that only apply when he is 'cast' and not 'played.'

"Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered."

;o

Edit: Also I already have one which I pulled from Eldrazi block luckily. He is too expensive of investment of playsetting. I might invest in Modern Masters 2 which he will be in since he was spoiled in that list so far.

Edit II: I will probably do something with Hideaway for casual play. My only real competitive deck(which I won local modern tournaments with) is my land hate modern deck which again, has a high potential of T1 land destruction and if not, guarantee by turn 2 I will be popping lands. I beat pod before with it, before pod was banned.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 09:49:12 PM by Drake Valentine »

Offline CountessJess

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #91 on: January 27, 2015, 03:40:58 AM »
With the proper Hideaway land ( Windbrisk Heights is lovely ), you could get anything out ridiculously early. If you're prepared to lay down some serious cash, T2 Emrakul could be a reality ( T3 is trivially easy ). Countering would be fairly easy, too ( and worst case, your Emrakul stays exiled ), but ... I think I'd risk it.

Suddenly I'm reminded of why I don't play the older formats.

No, he's not a reality. Unless you're playing legacy and playing Show and Tell or Survival of the Fittest, T2 or T3 Emrakul is next to impossible in Modern. Windbrisk Heights requires you to have three creatures attacking in a single turn - it's a lot more difficult than it looks, considering that this is a format with Lightning Helix, Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, Pyroclasm, not to mention Remand and Mana Leak to counter your spells, and Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek to remove them from hand. Believe me, I've run Windbrisk Heights in both Soul Sisters and W/B tokens before, and it very rarely gets set off. If there's a Windbrisk Heights in play your opponent will be actively trying to remove your creatures before they can attack.

And think about it this way - if you don't draw Windbrisk Heights, and draw Emrakul, he's a dead draw forever. It's like Tron sitting there without the Urza lands and slowly trying to reach 7 mana to hardcast Karn - they've most likely lost the game by that point, except instead you're trying to climb to 15 instead. Or what if your Windbrisk Heights hits nothing? Are you really going to play four copies of each Eldrazi Titan so that you're sure to hit something worth using Hideaway on? When I play Windbrisk Heights I'd sometimes never hit anything worthwhile, even when running 2x Elspeth, Knight Errant and 4x Hero of Bladehold - what more a single Emrakul? And if you do run a number of Eldrazi Titans, they're all dead draws unless you have something to cheat them out with.

I think at that point you might as well be running Maelstrom Archangel/Coalition Victory/Omniscience Combo.


Edit: There is also Quicksilver Amulet. I used to use it to bring out Emarkul. Why pay 15 when I can pay 4(think it was.) But it puts into play and not cast. Which, they can't counter since it is an ability and you aren't 'casting,' you are 'putting.' I'll just put this here 15/15 pro all colors onto field. ;o Don't worry, I'll swing next turn with flying and annihilator(what did he have again, six?)

Board wipe. Damnation, Terminus, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict, Oblivion Stone, Pernicious Deed, Nevinyrrl's Disk, etc. In a multiplayer game somebody ought to have a boardwipe. Or deal with the Quicksilver Amulet/Elvish Piper/Maelstrom Archangel/Cheating mechanism before it has a chance to activate, with things like Krosan Grip or Sudden Spoiling if there's a chance they activate the ability. And even if it's put into play, you can still Stifle/Voidmage Husher the ability. If he's cast you can still Mindbreak Trap or Time Stop. You can also kill Emrakul with creature or artifact or enchantment abilities, so Nekrataal, Royal Assassin, Intrepid Hero, Shriekmaw, Executioner's Capsule, Spine of Ish Shah, Oblivion Ring, Detention Sphere will all kill him. Alternatively you can keep him locked down with Ajani Vengeant or Tamiyo, the Moon Sage or Citadel Siege.  If my opponent got to fifteen and all he has is an Emrakul instead of going infinite with Exsanguinate or Hurricane or Debt to the Deathless or Helix Pinnacle, I'm pretty happy, because so many normal cards deal with Emrakul. Just because you can't Path to Exile or Counterspell doesn't mean he's difficult to deal with.

Quote
Edit II: I will probably do something with Hideaway for casual play. My only real competitive deck(which I won local modern tournaments with) is my land hate modern deck which again, has a high potential of T1 land destruction and if not, guarantee by turn 2 I will be popping lands. I beat pod before with it, before pod was banned.

Could I have a look at the decklist, please? I'm really curious at how the deck works - T1 land destruction, as hard as I think, I can't imagine being possible.

Online Sprikut

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #92 on: January 27, 2015, 05:20:23 AM »
Modern is a turn 4 format. Which is to say you should be winning on turn 4 consistently (see: splintertwin)

Anything later and youre starting to get risky.

The hideaway lands are definitely solid but I dont think ive seen anything but the blue and white ones ever seeing play. They just arent back breaking either.

As for emrakul in edh. I wasnt suggesting using urzatron to cast it. Though with the amount of land tutoring you can do I suppose its plausible. Even in modern urzatroning out emrakul is a fools errand ;) Id be looking at that naya commander and just worrying about tutoring up emrakul and ramping.  It would be consistent just not particularly OP in edh at least from my local experience.

My current favorite way to try and cheat out emrakul is definitely through the breach. Whats that haste? ^_^ But manifesting him and then flickering your manifest card is super super cool too!

If you want to try and cheat emrakul out I've tried just about everyway. Djinn of wishes, descendants path, omen machine, amulets, summoners eggs. ;) Give me a shout if you want advice.

Only thing I can think of that land destructions t1. Is simian spirit guide + Boom//bust or Trickbind...At least in modern ;)



Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #93 on: January 27, 2015, 07:26:11 AM »
Yes, but can they counter him then? I thought he was uncounterable or does that only apply when he is 'cast' and not 'played.'

"Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered."

I meant counter as in break your combo by killing a creature or destroying your land, not counterspell. 'Casting' and 'playing' are, AFAIK, the same thing.

No, he's not a reality. Unless you're playing legacy and playing Show and Tell or Survival of the Fittest, T2 or T3 Emrakul is next to impossible in Modern. . . .

Yeah, I didn't mean it'd be easy as in you'd be able to do it. Setting it up, however, is not difficult. I may have exaggerated with T2, though - I didn't consider that the land itself would come into play tapped, so make it T3. Whether or not you get hit with any range of possible counters ( the worst of which would be Stone Rain or something similar ) is another matter.

Offline CountessJess

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2015, 10:13:18 AM »
Modern is a turn 4 format. Which is to say you should be winning on turn 4 consistently (see: splintertwin)

Anything later and youre starting to get risky.

The hideaway lands are definitely solid but I dont think ive seen anything but the blue and white ones ever seeing play. They just arent back breaking either.

As for emrakul in edh. I wasnt suggesting using urzatron to cast it. Though with the amount of land tutoring you can do I suppose its plausible. Even in modern urzatroning out emrakul is a fools errand ;) Id be looking at that naya commander and just worrying about tutoring up emrakul and ramping.  It would be consistent just not particularly OP in edh at least from my local experience.

My current favorite way to try and cheat out emrakul is definitely through the breach. Whats that haste? ^_^ But manifesting him and then flickering your manifest card is super super cool too!

If you want to try and cheat emrakul out I've tried just about everyway. Djinn of wishes, descendants path, omen machine, amulets, summoners eggs. ;) Give me a shout if you want advice.

Only thing I can think of that land destructions t1. Is simian spirit guide + Boom//bust or Trickbind...At least in modern ;)

Modern may be a turn 4 format, but I've hardly ever seen people win consistently on turn 4, outside of a few examples (splintertwin, storm, jeskai ascendency) and this is assuming no disruption from your opponent. What it means by a turn 4 format is that in a goldfish setting you win by turn 4, but with an opponent who is flinging removal and counterspells, games tend to drag on much longer.

In any case there are a ton of decks that take much longer than turn 4 to push out a win. Abzan Midrange, Abzan Pod (before the bannings), all 3 versions of Tron, Hatebears, xUW midrange.

The best way, imho, to cheat out an Emrakul kind of creature and ensuring it sticks is to use Jhoira of the Ghitu and suspend something like Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate with your big fat Eldrazi titan. Countdown happens, you wipe the board of everything, including lands, Emrakul comes down to an empty board with an extra turn. Although honestly, at that point, I'd prefer Ulamog or Blightsteel Colossus. The other ways you suggested seem either too random for him to be the top card, or not casting.

If Land Destruction t1 is Simian spirit guide into Boom//Bust, then sure, be my guest - we're both at the same mana base, except that you've lost card advantage.

Yeah, I didn't mean it'd be easy as in you'd be able to do it. Setting it up, however, is not difficult. I may have exaggerated with T2, though - I didn't consider that the land itself would come into play tapped, so make it T3. Whether or not you get hit with any range of possible counters ( the worst of which would be Stone Rain or something similar ) is another matter.

Trust me, T3 Windbrisk heights is not easy to pull off. And it's not just stone rain - any form of removal before your attacking step on your 3 creatures, or normal modern sideboards like Ghost Quarter, Blood Moon, Spreading Seas...Hideaway lands are good cards, but not reliable enough to form the nucleus of your deck.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2015, 12:17:09 PM »
Trust me, T3 Windbrisk heights is not easy to pull off. And it's not just stone rain - any form of removal before your attacking step on your 3 creatures, or normal modern sideboards like Ghost Quarter, Blood Moon, Spreading Seas...Hideaway lands are good cards, but not reliable enough to form the nucleus of your deck.

I find these types of discussions a bit frustrating, to be honest. Yes, I'm aware that x spell ruins the setup. It's sort of the point of combos, that you take away one part and it stops working. I'm also aware that removal is a thing, and that it could ruin anything that requires attacking to trigger.

You're still missing the point, though: Setting Windbrisk up to trigger is not difficult. Getting it to trigger might be. But there are ways.

Online Geeklet

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2015, 12:38:05 PM »
The best way, imho, to cheat out an Emrakul kind of creature and ensuring it sticks is to use Jhoira of the Ghitu and suspend something like Decree of Annihilation or Obliterate with your big fat Eldrazi titan. Countdown happens, you wipe the board of everything, including lands, Emrakul comes down to an empty board with an extra turn. Although honestly, at that point, I'd prefer Ulamog or Blightsteel Colossus.

If this sort of thing regularly happens in your playgroup, then it says a lot about your playgroup. Not all people are as cuthroat this. Not that it is a bad thing, it is just not my style.

Offline CountessJess

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2015, 01:34:28 PM »
I find these types of discussions a bit frustrating, to be honest. Yes, I'm aware that x spell ruins the setup. It's sort of the point of combos, that you take away one part and it stops working. I'm also aware that removal is a thing, and that it could ruin anything that requires attacking to trigger.

You're still missing the point, though: Setting Windbrisk up to trigger is not difficult. Getting it to trigger might be. But there are ways.

The point of good combos is that they are resilient enough that if you hit one section of them, there's a good backup for the other parts as well. Tron functions well of this - even if your land destruction/colour changes hits them in unfriendly colours they can still out things like Batterskull and Oblivion Stone to delay until they can hardcast Karn/Emrakul. Similarly, Kiki/Splinter Twin run multiple things that they can target, including Pestermite, Deceiver Exarch and Restoration Angel, so that they don't fold to things like Surgical Extraction. A combo's not a good one if there isn't resilience and redundancy built into its package. If Leyline of Punishment hits the field vs Martyr-Proc lifegain, the deck can still possibly push through with Elspeth, Knight Errant and Linvala. But if Spreading Seas hits Windbrisk Heights the Hideaway is likely going to be useless.

If this sort of thing regularly happens in your playgroup, then it says a lot about your playgroup. Not all people are as cuthroat this. Not that it is a bad thing, it is just not my style.

That's...not even that cutthroat. Cutthroat is Tooth and Nail into Mikeaus the Unhallowed + Triskelion, or Maelstrom Wanderer using Mystical and Worldly Tutor to cascade into Jolkuhaulps and Kiki-Jiki. Cutthroat is Deadeye Navigator + Eternal Witness to recur Time Warp for infinite turns, or Mycosynth Lattice+Sydri, Galvanic Genius.

Putting your combo pieces on a four turn clock for everyone to see, which gives your opponents four turns to search for answers, to group up and kill you, to find ways to mitigate the damage, to tutor for counterspells/killspells/instant speed board wipes, that is not cutthroat.

Offline Hemingway

Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2015, 01:58:20 PM »
This is starting to remind me too much of the 'discussions' on Magic spoilers. You know, the whole 'dies to removal' thing, everyone trying to one-up everyone else.

Offline CountessJess

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Re: Magic: The Gathering (Discussion)
« Reply #99 on: January 27, 2015, 02:06:17 PM »
This is starting to remind me too much of the 'discussions' on Magic spoilers. You know, the whole 'dies to removal' thing, everyone trying to one-up everyone else.

It's nothing to do with 'dies to removal', it's about building redundancy into your deck and having a plan B.