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Author Topic: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)  (Read 6035 times)

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Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #300 on: December 11, 2014, 03:07:22 PM »
I used Dragon Wildshape because the Vampire Lord template grants Wildshape as a level 12 druid (Plus paragon mods?) so Masako qualifies to use Dragon Wildshape.  I just wish I could use a huge dragon instead of just a medium one. (by the RAW)

You also need to have 30 ranks of Knowledge (nature), though, and the most ranks you can get at this point is 15.

Zaer, the multiclass rules explicitly state that paladin/cleric multiclass has an effective turning level of cleric level + paladin level - 3. It just doesn't say anything about uses per day.

Also, did you get my question I sent via PM, Zaer?

Offline Snake

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #301 on: December 11, 2014, 03:08:38 PM »
yeah it would. It doesn't specify what type of dragon so I could use any drago ntype I could find. Not by Draconomican darkest. you only need 15 ranks of knowledge )nature). And Masako's primary martial power class is ranger.

Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #302 on: December 11, 2014, 03:13:22 PM »
Ooooh, you took the non-epic Dragon Wild Shape. :-[ I thought you'd taken the epic Dragon Wild Shape from the ELH. Mea culpa.

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #303 on: December 11, 2014, 03:14:13 PM »
Aha, if multiclass rules state so then that case you have only 3+Cha Mod if levels get combined. However are the paladin and cleric levels in same single path of gestalt? Like cleric 6/paladin 6? If not, you count the turning/rebuke turning levels (and turn and rebuke uses) separately.

As even if you got 12th level as cleric and paladin (two different gestalt paths occupied), you count only as 12th level cleric or 12th level paladin (not combine them unless both classes occupy single path).

Also yes I got the PM, just been too busy reply to it.

As far as equipment goes - if I were to create an item that allowed me to use, say, blood wind, a spell that has a casting time of 1 swift action, at will, would activating the item be a swift action or a standard action?

It would be swift action. Same with wands or other 'charged items'. Potions always take standard.

Also according this you need 30 ranks in K:Nature to get dragon wild shape Snake, in addittion wild shaping 6/day.

Huh? Non-epic dragon wild shape? Can someone explain this one?

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #304 on: December 11, 2014, 03:17:27 PM »
Huh? Non-epic dragon wild shape? Can someone explain this one?

From the book Draconomicon.  It requires only 15 ranks of Knowledge (Nature) and the ability to Wild Shape, but the dragon forms available are limited to only small and medium size, compared to the unlimited size on the version from the Epic Level Handbook.

Since the Alternate Form ability provided by the Vampire Lord template works 'as the druid ability wild shape used by a 12th-level druid', I believe Snake's plan is to use the Paragon Creature bonus feat to pick up the Draconomicon version of Dragon Wild Shape at level 12, and apply it to the alternate form ability.  Legally, it's a bit of a fuzzy area for how the rules would work, but in terms of the actual power it would grant, it wouldn't be overpowered.  Like I said a few posts ago, his character's base form is going to be much more powerful than any alternate forms he could assume with the feat, so all it would do is add some extra utility.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 03:22:19 PM by Kunoichi »

Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #305 on: December 11, 2014, 03:22:00 PM »
Wands are spell-trigger. Spell-trigger is explicitly standard action, though an exception is mentioned for spells that take longer than 1 standard action to cast. So a wand of bloodwind would take a standard action to activate, RAW, but a wand of lesser restoration would take 3 rounds to activate.

Offline Snake

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #306 on: December 11, 2014, 03:26:57 PM »
I happen to own the hardback copy of that book so it was easy to find. :3

A Medium dragon is still a pretty powerful beastie, more manueverable int the air too.

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #307 on: December 11, 2014, 03:28:42 PM »
Wands are spell-trigger. Spell-trigger is explicitly standard action, though an exception is mentioned for spells that take longer than 1 standard action to cast. So a wand of bloodwind would take a standard action to activate, RAW, but a wand of lesser restoration would take 3 rounds to activate.

That was something they changed the rules on later on in 3.5's lifecycle.  From the Rules Compendium, page 85: 'Activating a spell trigger item takes the same amount of time as the casting time of the spell that the item stores, but activating the item doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.'

Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #308 on: December 11, 2014, 03:29:40 PM »
Well that's useful.

What I get for relying too much on the SRD. Mea culpa x2 c-c-c-c-combo

 :-[

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #309 on: December 11, 2014, 03:51:10 PM »
That's okay. ^^ Everyone can forget portions of the rules every now and then.  I completely forgot about the bonus feat granted by the Paragon Creature template, for example, and am currently in the middle of picking one out for my character.

Speaking of which, Zaer, could I take the Dreadful Wrath feat?  It's a regional feat that I don't qualify for, but the frightful presence ability it grants would be incredibly fitting for my character.

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #310 on: December 11, 2014, 04:23:22 PM »
I allow regional feats if picked in first level (or as paragon template case, pick where you like it).

Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #311 on: December 11, 2014, 04:38:18 PM »
As far as leveling up goes, should we plan to have a chance to advance our levels, albeit slowly, or will we be pretty much static in terms of power?

Offline Sain

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #312 on: December 11, 2014, 05:07:24 PM »
Wasn't the ECL of these characters 15? So any encounter that we get XP from (+30) would be quite a nifty amount of XP indeed.

Offline Snake

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #313 on: December 11, 2014, 05:13:30 PM »
Unless we're crushing mooks then we aren't getting anything because our "to next level" is actually so high it wouldn' amount to anything noticeable

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #314 on: December 11, 2014, 05:16:19 PM »
Wasn't the ECL of these characters 15? So any encounter that we get XP from (+30) would be quite a nifty amount of XP indeed.

We're technically ECL 27 (12 levels + 15 LA from the free Paragon template), but thanks to the triple gestalt, we're technically CR 30 creatures.  It's probably better to assume that we count as ECL 30 as well, for the purpose of experience point gain.

By the way, Zaer, do you have an idea of how powerful you want beings like the gods to be in this campaign?  I will admit that I'm kind of hoping that they'd get custom stat blocks placing them at around the level of the writeups for Tiamat and Bahamut in the Manual of the Planes (both CR 25 encounters), or the stat blocks for the demon lords and archdevils in the Fiendish Codex booklets.  Essentially, big enough to pose something of a threat (particularly when surrounded by their legions of followers, so we can't just waltz into a divine realm and become godslayers), but not likely to directly kill any of us off without a whole lot of luck involved.

Edit: Actually, Tiamat and Bahamut would probably be a good yardstick for a game like this one, since they're supposed to be greater draconic deities themselves.  Give them more magic items as part of their hoards, some sort of home field advantage for confronting them in their homes, and surround them with hordes of their draconic and outsider followers, and they'd make for pretty challenging encounters. ^^
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 05:20:46 PM by Kunoichi »

Offline Sain

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #315 on: December 11, 2014, 05:21:27 PM »
So I guess we can't expect any progress from natural XP gain, but if any is to happen it could be via divine ranks that the monsters get by dealing with the Gods, Overgod and possibly with this force that's destroying reality? Then again the characters are pretty friggin strong already and there's a lot to do before this level starts to feel stale in any way so personally at least I'd prefer somewhat slow progress in terms of personal power, but maybe more with items, knowledge, political leverage and locations or dunno, does that fit the campaign theme?

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #316 on: December 11, 2014, 05:24:38 PM »
I will update them but they are likely +30 CR encounters themselves so not far above you in CR wise. Unless backed with minions or other 'cheat mode' factors (like divine powers which makes them unkillable by mundane means).

Anyways plan for longer progress as I give XP awards by plot purposes than direct fights (unless you beat a god/archdevil or such permanent fashion). Tarrasque is not farmable for XP as note :P. Anyways you get quicker power with sheer political influence or using minions accomplish something fast (as with 6th level spells your limited in personal scope even if potent otherwise).

You could create kingdoms, lead armies on conquest (even if behind army from comfortable chair if pick potent enough generals to do dirty work for you). While trying figure out the mystery what for overgod Ao released you first place. Overall game surrounds in having fun being badass 'monster' character who would be epic end game boss in all other DnD campaigns (and your a group top of that and can be in same plane or world as other one if you so want to).

Offline Sain

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #317 on: December 11, 2014, 05:50:19 PM »
Plan for progress you say. It's making me think that maybe I should redesign at least the physical might part... Dynja just isn't getting much anything from the 10 dragon shaman levels as my main motivation to go there was the 24/7 water breathing extraordinary ability so that she can take part in those wicked cool meetings that the monsters will hold in ocean floors (because if this wasn't going to happen at some point it will now).  Then again the dragon shaman version of "lay on hands" is quite ok.

Think I'll try to do some research before fully locking the physical might.

Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #318 on: December 11, 2014, 06:02:42 PM »
I was wondering because there are some feats like Superior Unarmed Strike that become useless after a certain point. It wouldn't be a wasted feat now, but later on it might become one. Should we reach that point, is retraining feats (I think it's in the PHBII) kosher?

Offline Sain

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #319 on: December 11, 2014, 06:12:15 PM »
Psychic reformation is some minor xp cost away, and likely faster than regular retraining :P
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 06:19:15 PM by Sain »

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #320 on: December 11, 2014, 06:22:52 PM »
I will update them but they are likely +30 CR encounters themselves so not far above you in CR wise. Unless backed with minions or other 'cheat mode' factors (like divine powers which makes them unkillable by mundane means).

Having taken some time to look through Deities and Demigods, it's more like the official stats for them are +40 CR opponents on average, with those 'cheat mode' divine powers added in on top of that. ^^; Even without their divine abilities, they've generally been given ridiculously overinflated amounts of class levels and hit dice, with the intention literally spelled out in the book that they're supposed to be opponents that no adventuring party could ever hope to defeat.  That level of power doesn't seem like it fits in with what you want for this campaign, though.

Actually, come to think of it, it would probably be most fitting to stat up the various deities as 20th-level gestalt characters, with the benefits of their divine rank added on on top of that.  That way, they still get those 'cheat mode' divine abilities that put them far above even epic-level mortals and make them a significant challenge for our characters, but it also makes it a lot easier to see our own characters as potential end bosses for an epic level campaign, or at least it does for me.

Quote
Anyways plan for longer progress as I give XP awards by plot purposes than direct fights (unless you beat a god/archdevil or such permanent fashion). Tarrasque is not farmable for XP as note :P. Anyways you get quicker power with sheer political influence or using minions accomplish something fast (as with 6th level spells your limited in personal scope even if potent otherwise).

The Tarrasque is only a CR 20 encounter.  It's actually in the rules that we wouldn't be able to get any experience off of something so much weaker than us anyway. :P
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 06:24:14 PM by Kunoichi »

Online Zaer DarkwailTopic starter

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #321 on: December 11, 2014, 06:54:28 PM »
Psychic reformation is some minor xp cost away, and likely faster than regular retraining :P

Yup, that is useful power help retrain. Also I allow retrain feats whenever you level up but it needs a good reason/explanation. Also note any templates or such which gives DR 20/+3 or such they are halved down to DR 10/magic unless the +enchantment part goes past +5 (where it turns to epic). As note paragon creature's DR is 10/epic. Also weapon enchants which allows ignore various DR (like shadow striking) works vs all DR expect epic (you need flat +6 enchantment bonus to ignore that DR).

Anyways yeah Kunoichi, gestalt was the plan I planned for deities. Redesign them to be gestalts who got divine ranks into them. Also you guys can get divine ranks also, if get enough worshipers and find religion and perform miracles (single diplomacy check turn people fanatics is not enough).

Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #322 on: December 11, 2014, 07:12:11 PM »
Unless you use your natural attacks, which, as a paragon creature, bypass epic damage reduction! Huzzah!

Offline Kunoichi

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #323 on: December 11, 2014, 07:35:21 PM »
Anyways yeah Kunoichi, gestalt was the plan I planned for deities. Redesign them to be gestalts who got divine ranks into them. Also you guys can get divine ranks also, if get enough worshipers and find religion and perform miracles (single diplomacy check turn people fanatics is not enough).

Ah, that's good to hear, then. ^^ As for gaining divine ranks, if my character winds up drawing any worshipers, I can guarantee that it's going to be by accident. :P She's really more of a 'random encounter' type of girl, rather than an empire-builder.

Though, admittedly, item number 3 or 4 on her list of things to do once freed involves checking in on the Seelie and Unseelie Courts, which I'm hoping will involve some heavy combat with the greatest champions of the fey realms... ;D

Offline indarkestknight

Re: Interest Check: Legendary Monsters (3.5 DnD)
« Reply #324 on: December 12, 2014, 12:21:19 AM »
Ugh why is wizard such a blatantly superior choice to sorcerer for what I'm doing.  :'( My Int is naturally higher than my Cha, and wizard has better monk synergy and if I take wizard instead of sorcerer I'll get BAB +11 instead of BAB +10. ARGH.

EDIT: To give this post some actual value...

Zaer, are we using the listed sex rules?

How does the paragon template interact with EP? Do we get 12 bonus EP for each of our hit dice, too? Do bonuses to damage from enhancement bonuses to unarmed strikes/natural weapons or the +20 luck bonus to damage apply to EP damage as well? If your target is flat-footed against you or is... ahem "flanked" can sneak attack damage apply to EP damage?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 12:25:22 AM by indarkestknight »