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Author Topic: Ferguson v2.0  (Read 5552 times)

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Offline consortium11Topic starter

Ferguson v2.0
« on: November 25, 2014, 08:31:53 AM »
The last thread didn't go particularly well but here's to hoping that this one can go better.

There's two major points of discussion from the two major items to come out of this, although the two are certainly related.

1) The Grand Jury made their decision not to indict Darren Wilson for the death of Michael Brown. This strikes me as being primarily a legal and evidential question; I believe all the evidence the Grand Jury saw is being (or at this point may have been) released and so it's probably best to read through that before commenting in depth; one of the issues with discussing the Trayvon Martin case was that people hadn't read (or understood) what the evidence was.

2) Sadly but unsurprisingly one of the responses to the Grand Jury's decision was a wave of looting and arson in Ferguson with shops and businesses seemingly unrelated to the case being broken into, goods being stolen and then being set on fire.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 01:41:36 PM by consortium11 »

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Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2014, 08:42:59 AM »
It's looking bleak. The last thing one wants to hear about now is "Thanksgiving riots" over these frayed affairs, but clearly a lot of tempers and minds are on edge.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2014, 08:50:24 AM »
One source for the court documents and hearing protocols I have found so far is here: http://apps.stlpublicradio.org/ferguson-project/evidence.html

Some documents take forever to load, but I suppose that's no surprise, given the large public interest this case has generated.

Offline Cycle

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2014, 10:03:22 AM »
2) Sadly but unsurprisingly the response to the Grand Jury's decision was a wave of looting and arson in Ferguson with shops and businesses seemingly unrelated to the case being broken into, goods being stolen and then being set on fire.

I would be careful implying that looting and arson were the only response to the Grand Jury's decision.  They are not.


Offline Ebb

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 11:34:03 AM »
The last thread didn't go particularly well but here's to hoping that this one can go better.

There's two major points of discussion from the two major items to come out of this, although the two are certainly related.

1) The Grand Jury made their decision not to indict Darren Wilson for the death of Michael Brown. This strikes me as being primarily a legal and evidential question; I believe all the evidence the Grand Jury saw is being (or at this point may have been) released and so it's probably best to read through that before commenting in depth; one of the issues with discussing the Trayvon Martin case was that people hadn't read (or understood) what the evidence was.

Without having read more than just bits and pieces of the original testimony, I'll say that I found Vox's take on the events compelling:

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side

2) Sadly but unsurprisingly the response to the Grand Jury's decision was a wave of looting and arson in Ferguson with shops and businesses seemingly unrelated to the case being broken into, goods being stolen and then being set on fire.

I'd amend this to say that a wave of looting and arson in Ferguson was one response to the decision. The number of looters and arsonists was far lower than the number of peaceful protesters, both in Ferguson and in many other American cities.


Offline Kythia

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Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 01:29:53 PM »

Offline consortium11Topic starter

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 01:41:58 PM »
I'd amend this to say that a wave of looting and arson in Ferguson was one response to the decision. The number of looters and arsonists was far lower than the number of peaceful protesters, both in Ferguson and in many other American cities.

I would be careful implying that looting and arson were the only response to the Grand Jury's decision.  They are not.

Noted and changed.

Offline Cherri Tart

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 06:57:59 PM »
It's hard to understand what's going on here if you're an outsider looking in. it's hard to come to grips with the raw anger that is being displayed at the moment. it's hard to understand the injustice people feel. Just to throw out a few of the big names that mirror the Michael Brown shooting in recent history; Rodney King,Trayvon Martin and Oscar Grant. Those are the ones many of us are familiar with, but trust me, that is just the tip of the ice berg - whether Wilson deserved to be freed of charges is not the point. the point is, yet another black kid was gunned down by a white cop who was then exonerated. for some of you, this is simply a news story. For others, this is reality. At some point, people start feeling helpless to create peaceful change, wondering, how many of our sons must die? why does no one care? at that point, all they have left is to strike out with violence.

no, it's not going to change anything, but neither are peaceful protests, that has become obvious, at least to many of us. sure, it's self destructive. sure it, at best, doesn't change anything and, at worst, makes things worse, but when you start treating people like they don't matter, what do they have left? honestly, this reaction doesn't surprise me at all, and there is a part of me that yearns to be out there burning shit to the ground as well...

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 08:00:15 PM »
I stumbled across this while reading up on the case and am honestly in a bit of shock but is there any truth to the information below?



If so, America really needs to start asking itself why the police feel the need to resort so often to their guns rather than tazers, rubber bullets, pepper spray, etc...

Offline Shjade

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 08:10:53 PM »
It seems shocking, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's accurate. I've always had the impression police in the rest of the world basically treat guns as a last resort measure rather than an introductory FREEZE, ASSHOLE tool.

But then, what would I know, I don't live outside the U.S.

Offline Scribbles

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 08:44:23 PM »
I've always had the impression police in the rest of the world basically treat guns as a last resort measure rather than an introductory FREEZE, ASSHOLE tool.

Haha, you almost made me choke on my tea with that!

Silliness aside, I know of countries where gun laws are highly restrictive as far as police are concerned and they still feel free to fire off their pistols like gatling guns when given the chance.

Perhaps you need to start looking from the perspective of your local officers and asking yourself why they might feel the need to resort so often to lethal force, there might be a legitimate concern compared to other countries...
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 08:45:38 PM by Scribbles »

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 08:48:41 PM »
 You might want to look up the statistics on the number of guns in the hands of the citizens and how often they are used against other citizens and the police.  I think that if the criminal actors limited themselves to the use of tazers, rubber bullets, pepper spray, etc. the police wouldn't feel the need to use fire arms.  Also, the number of citizens/crimes in relation to the number of police is also a factor.


Offline Inkidu

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Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 09:03:11 PM »
I stumbled across this while reading up on the case and am honestly in a bit of shock but is there any truth to the information below?



If so, America really needs to start asking itself why the police feel the need to resort so often to their guns rather than tazers, rubber bullets, pepper spray, etc...
A.) You can just discount Japan from these things. They're typically specifically stuffed into these comparisons to make other nations look bad, but Japan is an incredibly homogeneous society with strong reverence for norms and mores. It's not so much gun control as gun-less complicity. In general the Japanese don't need armed police because violent crime in Japan has historically been low.

B.) America can fit all three of those nations in Texas alone and has many more population centers per capita (ie. We've equaled the major cities of most nations before hitting the Appalachians). So number of people, number of police. I can't tell from the info whether or not that number is so high because there are more police officers being shot because there are more police officers to shoot.

C.) Most importantly though:

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/causes.html

That is a list of all the law enforcement deaths over the past decade.

In 2014 alone the number of deaths from being shot is 548. The only other one that comes close is car crashes.

Don't get me wrong. I love the number of non-lethal options, but look, approximately 100 more officers were killed by people with guns.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 09:06:29 PM by Inkidu »

Offline Knightshadow

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2014, 09:17:20 PM »
I would like to ask if there are so many police shootings of perpetrators, what were the perpetrators doing to cause this reaction from police?  Were they violently resisting? Were they running away? Were they brandishing their own weapons?  My assumption is that more often the case is an alleged criminal is in the commission of a violent crime wherein the police feel the need to protect life and property.  I would be curious to see statistics on number of perpetrators shot in the back, possibly fleeing.

But the looting?  Violent responses (fires, throwing objects, pushing cars, breaking windows) seem understandable.  But looting?  They are so mad at the decision so they need to rob a Dollar Store and start their Christmas shopping early?  This, I cannot understand.

Offline Cycle

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2014, 09:35:25 PM »
This is fascinating.  Look at the number of protests that are taking place around the world...



(To be clear.  This is a map of protests, not riots.)



Offline Scribbles

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2014, 10:03:47 PM »
I thought it was obvious but in case anyone is getting defensive, I'd like to point out that I am trying to draw some perspective towards the reasons why lethal force might be used rather than imply the police are somehow in the wrong.

Cycle,

I'm not sure I agree with that map, it seems to have omitted quite a few protests around the world...

Beguile's Mistress,

I have a pretty good idea of what I'd find if I looked up such statistics...

Inkidu,

I could probably lump the entirety of Europe together and go back twenty years and the comparison would still be against the US. The UK had a higher rate of violence per capita than the US at one point and its police shootings were still lower, although if you knew the UK you'd know I'm totally cheating! :P

That said, my post is answered more by your point C than A and B.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2014, 10:07:23 PM by Scribbles »

Offline Inkidu

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Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2014, 10:10:00 PM »
Well, I felt C was the most important anyway, so I'm glad.

Offline Apple of Eris

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2014, 10:18:51 PM »
I'm going to post two videos here, one discussing reasons for the outrage by John Oliver which he talks about the racial issues in that town and across large parts of America in general and the militarization of the US police force: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

I'd also like to point out as per this daily show clip, there is no actual data kept on how many americans are killed by police. The number of deaths is only an 'estimate'.
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/v4l2pe/a-shot-in-the-dark



Offline Knightshadow

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2014, 10:32:09 PM »
I'm going to post two videos here, one discussing reasons for the outrage by John Oliver which he talks about the racial issues in that town and across large parts of America in general and the militarization of the US police force: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

I'd also like to point out as per this daily show clip, there is no actual data kept on how many americans are killed by police. The number of deaths is only an 'estimate'.
http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/v4l2pe/a-shot-in-the-dark



How illuminating and hilarious! Thank you for sharing.  Love that John Oliver!

Offline Cycle

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2014, 10:38:13 PM »
Cycle,

I'm not sure I agree with that map, it seems to have omitted quite a few protests around the world...

Really?  What other countries have protests concerning the Ferguson Grand Jury decision?


Offline Scribbles

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2014, 10:46:41 PM »
Really?  What other countries have protests concerning the Ferguson Grand Jury decision?

Oh, I didn't realize they related to this trial specifically, I'm shocked Japan would participate in such at all...

I'm going to post two videos here, one discussing reasons for the outrage by John Oliver which he talks about the racial issues in that town and across large parts of America in general and the militarization of the US police force: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUdHIatS36A

Hahaha, that was hilarious!

Is racism really such an issue in America? I find that surprising.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2014, 01:42:58 AM by Scribbles »

Offline Cycle

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2014, 10:56:38 PM »
Oh, I didn't realize they rated to this trial specifically, I'm shocked Japan would participate in such at all...

Yeah, it looks like someone made a GoogleMap of the protest rally locations listed on this site:  http://fergusonresponse.tumblr.com/

Oslo's in on the action too!


Offline Slywyn

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2014, 11:32:57 PM »
Hahaha, that was hilarious, is racism really such an issue in America? I find that surprising.

Yes, yes it is.

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Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2014, 11:37:00 PM »
Can I just say that I'm very happy that other parts of the world actually care about what happens to the common folk and even my people. For the longest time I thought the world hated black people...this is beautiful to me.

Offline Shjade

Re: Ferguson v2.0
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2014, 12:22:45 AM »
Hahaha, that was hilarious, is racism really such an issue in America? I find that surprising.

Yeah, it's...yeah. It's less hilarious when you're here. Unless, of course, you're one of the people who, for some reason, finds the situation funny rather than appalling. x.x

(Note: that's a hypothetical "you," not suggesting you, personally, would be such a person.)