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Author Topic: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies  (Read 136113 times)

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Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #325 on: March 09, 2015, 11:51:03 PM »
So with the 3rd Avengers trailer now out, how long until Ant-Man gets another, I would say badly needed, trailer to take the mixed taste of the first one out of our mouths (if indeed such a thing is possible?)

Oh, and a rumor circulating around about the post-credits scene (or one of the two they usually have nowadays, exception being Guardians which only had one, if you don't count Groot slowly regrowing as one of them - which I don't, personally) for Age of Ultron is something along the lines of Hank Pym being approached by someone asking him what's going on, basically setting up Ant-Man's entrance into the MCU. Frankly I feel that that's a bit unnecessary but my favorite version of this is what I heard when the rumor first reached my ears:
Hank Pym is sitting in a bar not unlike General Thunderbolt Ross from the Incredible Hulk and is then approached in said bar by said General. Pym asks what brings Ross there and Ross tosses a newspaper onto the table/bar whose headline reads, "World Government Unite to Regulate Superhuman Activity". Ross then asks Pym, "Haven't you heard? We're at war." This would not only set up Ant-Man, the least important part, but would also actively set up Captain America: Civil War.

Wouldn't be the best post credit scene (My favorite was the Thanos reveal at the end of Avengers), but there is no denying how great that would be for setting up two movies for the price of one.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #326 on: March 10, 2015, 08:19:58 AM »
Wouldn't be the best post credit scene (My favorite was the Thanos reveal at the end of Avengers), but there is no denying how great that would be for setting up two movies for the price of one.


No, it wouldn't be the best, but frankly it would also be good to see some characters from TIH return since he's never gotten his own sequel. I mean, the Leader/Samuel Sterns is still out there somewhere. Are they saving him for Agents of SHIELD, maybe?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #327 on: March 10, 2015, 11:27:38 AM »

No, it wouldn't be the best, but frankly it would also be good to see some characters from TIH return since he's never gotten his own sequel. I mean, the Leader/Samuel Sterns is still out there somewhere. Are they saving him for Agents of SHIELD, maybe?

If the various wikis are to be believed, they already did - he was captured by SHIELD in 'Fury's Big Week', a comic miniseries tie-in to the Avengers movie.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #328 on: March 10, 2015, 02:02:54 PM »
I don't like that approach. To me, if they're going to be doing shows (Agents of SHIELD, Agent Carter, Daredevil) and one-shot short films, then anything on the printed page should not be allowed to have any say in the MCU's events. They could just as easily show that in AoS like they did when they casually mentioned the Abomination being in a cryo prison.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #329 on: March 15, 2015, 04:39:01 PM »
Sony will have final say over casting for the new Spider-Man, and is said to be looking for an actor much younger than Andrew Garfield, who is 31. Sony is looking to go back to "Spidey’s roots and put the character back in high school."
~ IGN]


I...I..I have no words how redundant Sony is becoming with Spider-Man. On second thought I do actually, why do they need to go back to the roots? If anyone is just a casual movie fan of superheroes knows how Spider-Man comes to be. Why do we need to do it a third time in a row? I get it this is a new Spidey but I mean come on! They are probably going to go with the 'Too many villains at once' trick again as well at this point since it seems to be tradition now to end a Spidey movie series. I swear if Carlie Cooper is the girl in this one this will probably be the only Marvel movie I will not watch.

*Disengages rant mode*

Still this could be a curious development should Spidey appear in Civil War like we have heard. In the actual comic story line (Thanks Wikipedia) he was already full grown and married to Mary Jane at the time when he made some stupid mistakes thanks part to himself and Iron Man.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 06:23:00 PM by CaptainNexus616 »

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #330 on: March 15, 2015, 07:08:36 PM »
Sony will have final say over casting for the new Spider-Man, and is said to be looking for an actor much younger than Andrew Garfield, who is 31. Sony is looking to go back to "Spidey’s roots and put the character back in high school."
~ IGN]


I...I..I have no words how redundant Sony is becoming with Spider-Man. On second thought I do actually, why do they need to go back to the roots? If anyone is just a casual movie fan of superheroes knows how Spider-Man comes to be. Why do we need to do it a third time in a row? I get it this is a new Spidey but I mean come on! They are probably going to go with the 'Too many villains at once' trick again as well at this point since it seems to be tradition now to end a Spidey movie series. I swear if Carlie Cooper is the girl in this one this will probably be the only Marvel movie I will not watch.

*Disengages rant mode*

Still this could be a curious development should Spidey appear in Civil War like we have heard. In the actual comic story line (Thanks Wikipedia) he was already full grown and married to Mary Jane at the time when he made some stupid mistakes thanks part to himself and Iron Man.

I don't want the damn Ultimate Spiderman who gets a hole torn in the seat of his suit and moons an entire block of people as he swings away. The goofy kid who they trotted out to appeal to a younger audience. I want the mature, dealing-with-adult-problems Spiderman from the Maximum Carnage arc and the Cosmic Power arc where he became Captain Universe. They can flashback to certain parts of his youth, sure, in the movie to keep things in perspective, but I don't want a fledgling hero who embarrasses himself at every opportunity. Sony has already seen that the awkward youthful Peter Parker just isn't a draw the way Tobey, who at least got into college and asked MJ to marry him, did. Let him be a fucking Spider-MAN, not yet another goddamn Spider-BOY.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #331 on: March 15, 2015, 10:51:47 PM »
I'm marathoning all the Phase 1 movies in preparation for Age of Ultron, in chronological order. Should I include the 2008 Hulk movie, since it's technically the same continuity even if the actor changed?

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #332 on: March 15, 2015, 11:27:26 PM »
I'm marathoning all the Phase 1 movies in preparation for Age of Ultron, in chronological order. Should I include the 2008 Hulk movie, since it's technically the same continuity even if the actor changed?

If you're going to be that picky then you shouldn't watch either of the Iron Man sequels because they changed the actor for Rhodey (but then, no one should ever watch Iron Man 3...ever). Seriously, why is it important if they change actors unless it's not an improvement or at least equal? That's just my feeling. But yeah, watch the damn Hulk movie. Even though nothing from it has ever returned in any of the other movies (Betty, her dad, the Abomination was only briefly mentioned in AoS, and the Leader/Samuel Sterns; hell, not even that guy who is supposed to become Doc Samson).

I didn't much care for about half of the first season of AoS. Does anyone think season 2 gets better than the first? And what about Agent Carter's series, is that any good? I want to limit the number of shows I watch now that the semester is picking up so I want opinions from knowledgeable folks before I decide.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #333 on: March 15, 2015, 11:28:34 PM »
I worded the question poorly. I'm not concerned about the actor swap, I just want to know if '08 Hulk sucked,

Offline Beorning

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #334 on: March 16, 2015, 07:44:16 AM »
Personally, I'd say that it didn't suck too badly :) It's at least watchable, IMHO.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #335 on: March 16, 2015, 08:45:33 AM »
It's better than Iron Man 2 IMO; and anything, literally anything, is better than Iron Man 3.

Offline Beorning

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #336 on: March 16, 2015, 08:57:29 AM »
Eh. I actually found Iron Man 3 enjoyable, although I do understand where the criticism comes from...

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #337 on: March 16, 2015, 02:46:22 PM »
I would say the OOC descison of Tony blowing all of his suits up.

 Then suddenly having the tech to heal himself and no longer need his Arc Reactor Heart.

MK 42 being nothing but a joke

One of Iron Man's greatest and most powerful foes being reduced to drug addicted failed actor.

Then giving Tony a child sidekick for some very odd reason.


I am not going to lie though it did have positive moments. Tony was the only member of the Avengers who had never been in a massive invasion. Thor and Captain America had been in war before. Hulk...no need to explain. Then Black Widow and Hawk were use to it as well thanks to their careers in SHIELD.

 Yeah it was mentioned in Iron Man 2 Tony did help aid the military a lot...he wasn't in any real danger since he essentially brought a nuke to a knife fight and easily had the upper hand . Plus I don't think the fear of really dying sank in until his suit failed like it did in the Avengers. When he lost power and hurtled back to the earth only to survive by dumb luck instead of his brain...yeah it must have really messed with him.

In a sense the MK 42 being a terrible suit did help the movie. We got to see Tony Stark rely more on Tony then Iron Man for once. He used nothing but his own intellect to figure out the conspiracy and solve some of the problems which helped him heal from the anxietty he developed after New York.

I remember watching a video where Tony broke the 4th wall and told the bad guy their setup was the same as the Incredibles

Man scorned by his Icon becomes evil to gain some form of revenge.

Tony even (please do not get offended anyone as I am only quoting the video and mean no offense) said "I even have a Black friend and he has a Super Suit"

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #338 on: March 16, 2015, 02:52:15 PM »
I made a pretty solid defense of IM3 much earlier in this thread, and I'll stick with it. The little kid sidekick was utterly unnecessary, and they did sort of trample all over established Iron Man lore, but as a movie in its own right and the capstone to the story arc constructed in the trilogy, it was good.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #339 on: March 16, 2015, 03:20:45 PM »
You know with all these heroes we are getting in the Marvel Universe maybe we should do an anti-hero or a villain focused story. So far we have been getting a considerable amount of stereotypical villains with egos the size of Asgard.

Now Loki has a good bit of backstory, his whole life a lie and fabricated for a plan his foster father had when he was found as a baby left to die? I would snap too.

Still really how many just wanted to take over everything or destroy it just because they wanted to? Red Skull, Thanos, Stane, Hammer, Zola, the Dark Elves, Ronin, and the rest of Hydra. Its either profit, world domination, or for some lost honor of their people.

Where's the character development man?! Surely these Marvel Villains had some in those comics they are based on so why are these guys up to no good!
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 03:25:56 PM by CaptainNexus616 »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #340 on: March 16, 2015, 03:42:50 PM »
Does Marvel have an equivalent to the Suicide Squad?

Offline Beorning

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #341 on: March 16, 2015, 04:11:16 PM »
Well, you might count Thunderbolts as such to an extent, as it's a villain / anti-hero team. But their exact reason for existence, relationship with the law and membership differs from incarnation to incarnation...

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #342 on: March 16, 2015, 10:36:52 PM »
I made a pretty solid defense of IM3 much earlier in this thread, and I'll stick with it. The little kid sidekick was utterly unnecessary, and they did sort of trample all over established Iron Man lore, but as a movie in its own right and the capstone to the story arc constructed in the trilogy, it was good.

Gonna have to agree to disagree there, pal. 'Solid' is not what I'd call it, nor does the film deserve such a defense. Its list of offenses is just too great.

Marvel has tons of different villain alliances (Wrecking Crew, the U-Foes, Frightful Four, etc.) but I'm not aware of one that is basically blackmailed into going on suicide missions to earn freedom or privileges. But now we're hoping Marvel starts to play catch-up with DC? That's sad. I mean, I was hoping for a Namor movie before the Aquaman movie was announced, but it still seems like, even if Marvel secures the rights for him back before the end of this year, DC is still going to make their underwater superhero movie first, whether Marvel decides to or not.

DC is taking a big risk with Suicide Squad. I would think the general moviegoing audiences have only heard of, MAYBE, half the people on that team. For all we know, though, it could pay off like Guardians of the Galaxy did for Marvel (but they don't have big space battles...presumably.) I don't think Marvel ought to just follow that for the sake of novelty which it feels like (I could be wrong of course) DC is doing it for. The Guardians were almost a suicide squad in and of themselves because of how they all were before they banded together to stop Ronan. Every single one of them deserved to be locked up in that place, no question, but their redemption was the heart of the story. Suicide Squad has been said to be a bad idea if it takes this approach because people don't want to see a Joker redemption or that type of thing. So not really sure how a movie where we're supposed to root for the bad guys (especially if they don't make them likeable) is going to work.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2015, 10:44:09 PM by Mathim »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #343 on: March 16, 2015, 10:41:06 PM »
I know you hate it, you've made that abundantly clear. But your criteria and criticisms, at least the ones you've mentioned in the thread, are all based around it being dogmatically faithful to the Iron Man mythos/comics. I know very little about Iron Man besides what people have told me and bits I've picked up, so I'm judging it on its quality as a coherent movie and part of its trilogy arc, and it does very well there. And I'm not alone in thinking it either along the general moviegoing populace, based on Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic.

Offline Vorian

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #344 on: March 16, 2015, 11:02:35 PM »
Expecting a modicum of respect to be shown for:

- Iron Man's biggest villain.

- Extremis, and the actual creator thereof.

- One of the big villainous organizations of the setting.

Is hardly what I'd call dogmatic. Killian was a poor excuse for a villain on his own terms, and far to much better material was wasted on him.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #345 on: March 16, 2015, 11:20:23 PM »
Iron Man's biggest villain in the comics was a horrific racist caricature of China and Chinese people, I'm extremely happy they were not faithful to the 'true' Mandarin. Unless you're adamant on insisting All Hail The King is some sort of panicked retcon, all evidence of filming schedules to the contrary, it's evident from the start that they're still keeping the actual MCU Mandarin in reserve. I'll allow it was a wasted opportunity, but not that what we got was somehow a bad character.

Extremis...here's the list of abilities granted by the original Extremis serum, according to Marvel Wiki:
Quote
Original Extremis

The original Extremis serum gives its user:

    Superhuman Strength: An Extremis subject's strength can be increased to superhuman levels, providing the user enough strength to toss cars and people with relative ease[13], break someone's skull with a single punch[14], counter Iron Man's superhuman physical blows[13], break Iron Man's bones with ease through the suit, rip the highly durable suit apart without effort[13], and even use the "blade" of a bulldozer as a blunt force object.[2]
    Superhuman Speed: An Extremis subject can move and run at incredible speeds up to 300mph,[13], although it is unknown if this is the top speed an Extremis subject can move at.
    Superhuman Stamina: The virus grants its user almost unlimited stamina, with no need to eat, drink or breathe air.[13]
    Superhuman Durability: Extremis-enhanced beings have greater resistance to physical injury than an ordinary human. They are able to withstand bullet impacts and direct fire of Repulsor Blasts without feeling pain, at a potency higher than which a Repulsor Blast needs to have to cut through metal, only suffering minor wounds.[13] Iron Man's uni-beam only caused Mallen great discomfort without injury.[15]
    Fire-Breathing: At the user's discretion, his/her lungs fill with fire plasma which he/she can exhale through his/her mouth. Mallen torched a lobby full of people through this method.[14]
    Claw-like pincers: An Extremis subject can unsheathe stings from his/her fingertips. They are very durable, and in conjunction with super-strength, they can be used by the Extremis subject to claw through a converter box.[13]
    Electrical discharge: Extremis-enhanced beings are able to discharge extremely powerful electrical currents through his/her hands which seemed to emanate from his chest through his arms.[13]
    Healing Factor: Extremis-enhaced beings can also heal wounds at a incredible speed, in a matter of hours.[15]

The only things on that list that weren't in the movie are the magic lobster claws and the electric bolts, and they ramped up the healing factor. Not a huge loss, IMO.

AIM - isn't it originally run in the comics by Modok, the floating head with little stubby limbs in a flying armored bubble? I have no idea how you could make a non-ridiculous Modok in the semi-real-world MCU that still bore any resemblance to its source material, and while I won't argue that Killian's scenes were very poorly scripted and narmy, his narrative role was solid.


Also, you're successfully derailing me back into the exact point I'm trying to make. For someone who has never read any Iron Man comics, and only seen the Iron Man movies, the story across all three is self-contained and almost entirely functional; the only glaring weak points being the unnecessary kid sidekick and the frustratingly vague epilogue. Stuff like making Killian the leader of AIM instead of a random third-string nobody, or removing Extremis's techno-organic interface aspect...yes, complaining about stuff like that is what I'd consider dogmatic.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 12:00:05 AM by TheGlyphstone »

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #346 on: March 17, 2015, 02:46:30 AM »
Reading an interview given by two of the producers of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. they stated they picked elements here and there to form the plots for their show and the characters. That can probably be said the same for the movies. Picking elements from various story arcs and combining them to create something new. In the first Iron Man movie, the villain who held Tony captive had one of the Ten rings. I took the use of the Mandarian in the third movie to be more of a PR stunt by Killian who capilitized upon what was probably an urban myth floating around about someone named the Mandarian but whom nobody saw. Killian probably figured, hey, cool idea, I'll use that and while everyone is focused on the fake "Mandarian" I'll put my evil plan to work.

They were probably trying to build the Mandaian to be a sort of Ra's al Ghul type. In Batman Begins, the Ra's al Ghul that was shown was actually a decoy while Henri Ducard was the real Ra's who was working behind the scenes, from the shadows. What was his quote "Theatricality and deception are our weapon."

At least the kid didn't take along for the rest of the movie. Personally, Iron Man 3 was better then Iron Man 2. It seemed they tried to use the Demon in the Bottle story but it didn't work. Tony just seemed way out of character and seemed more a Black Widow movie more then Iron Man. Iron Man 3 was more about the man inside the machine, and if he was really Iron Man even without the armor. It all comes down to what the studio execs put their stamp of approval on as the final draft.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 03:37:40 AM by SapphireStar »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #347 on: March 17, 2015, 03:27:15 AM »

At least the kid didn't take along for the rest of the movie. Personally, Iron Man 3 was better then Iron Man 2. It seemed they tried to use the Demon in the Bottle story but it didn't work. Tony just seemed way out of character and seemed more a Black Widow movie more then Iron Man. Iron Man 3 was more about the man inside the machine, and if he was really Iron Man even without the armor. It all comes down to what the studio execs put their stamp of approval on as the final draft.

No kidding. You want to talk about Iron Man character assassination, the MCU version of Justin Hammer is at least as bad as their Killian rewrite, if not worse. At least Killian got promoted upward from minor side character to Big Bad, even if they then dropped the ball on making him actually appear threatening instead of just a +1 version of his mooks. Hammer got downgraded from Tony's evil counterpart to an incompetent stooge whose hardware and software were infamously terrible, yet somehow still got exclusive contracts with the US military (a group not exactly known for continuing business with people who sell defective merchandise). Crimson Dynamo and Whiplash got blended together into one character who was the 'real' bad guy of the movie and not even very good at it either, his entire scheme seemed to consist of losing to Tony in battlesuit fights in public to embarrass him or something. Heck, at least Slattery's Mandarin came across as a genuine threat right up until the big reveal of how the audience had been trolled so hard.

Offline Vorian

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #348 on: March 17, 2015, 03:29:30 AM »
Iron Man's biggest villain in the comics was a horrific racist caricature of China and Chinese people, I'm extremely happy they were not faithful to the 'true' Mandarin.

And a random badly written white guy essentially displacing a female scientist and a Chinese Dr Doom somehow isn't horrifically racist and sexist?

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #349 on: March 17, 2015, 03:37:18 AM »
And a random badly written white guy essentially displacing a female scientist and a Chinese Dr Doom somehow isn't horrifically racist and sexist?

The Mandarin literally had yellow skin in some of his earliest appearances. I know, this was like the 20's and 30's where that sort of thing was normal, but it's still a nasty legacy.
I may be mixing him up with Fing Fang Foom, or whoever the big egg guy is. Withdrawing this point until I can clarify.

EDIT: Okay, so I was actually thinking of Egg Fu apparently. Never mind.

Still, though, And what is random about Killian? He was the actual creator of Extremis in the comics, alongside Maya Hansen. And..surprise surprise, Aldrich Killian and Maya Hansen are the two people in the MCU who co-created Extremis too. I'm honestly confused now as to who you think created Extremis in the comics.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 03:44:12 AM by TheGlyphstone »