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Author Topic: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies  (Read 136516 times)

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Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2725 on: August 04, 2016, 08:57:03 AM »
What'd that be? If you're talking about the Nolan films, I'd say they're kind of insular from this DC Cinematic Universe. The problem with the DC universe is they're trying to piece it together as they go. The MCU obviously spent a lot of time in planning.

TDK trilogy wasn't trying to cynically mirror the MCU because the MCU was in its infancy, not doing so stellar that it became the powerhouse it was until The Avengers which came out the same year as TDKR, so by then it would have been too late for Nolan or WB to do anything about it and possibly try to set up further sequels or even possibly expand the DC universe from it. Their attempt to catch up to Marvel in such a ham-fisted way is what's killing these icons on screen, and they're not bothering to learn their lesson. The few 'new' things they're trying don't seem to be working either, as Suicide Squad is not getting much more positive reception so far than BvS did. If they cared about this stuff like Kevin Feige over at Marvel, and had someone like him in charge of the DCEU, maybe things would be different, but as it stands, it's too late for them to cut their losses and reboot, they have to keep plowing ahead even if it means continuously diminishing returns.

So after bitching and moaning about how bad BvS without having seen the movie, you watch it and decide it's just bad as you thought it was going to be. Well there's a shocker  ::)

Saw 2/3 of it (actually, more like 3/4 after having seen it and remembering having seen these scenes) on youtube beforehand. Wasn't sure what scenes went where exactly but ultimately it ended up not mattering. Complete dumpster fire from start to finish. I still find it astonishing you can't seem to distinguish the difference between criticizing someone's opinion and criticizing the person themselves, and then question me when you don't seem to grasp how uncomfortable I feel communicating with you. Too bad this site doesn't have the ignore feature that IMDB has.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2726 on: August 04, 2016, 10:15:43 AM »
With the exception of a few nifty action sequences.

Complete dumpster fire from start to finish.

Both of these things can't be true.

But if you watched the film having already decided it was going to be bad, then it's shouldn't surprise anyone including yourself when after watching it you think the movie is bad. Maybe go in with an open mind instead of pre-judging.

Now from the 3 DC movies there does seem to be a common pattern emerging, the first two acts of each film are good but the third act doesn't work for whatever reasons.  I found the end of Man of Steel painful to watch, not existential pain, the fight between Zod and Clark was an assault on senses it was too loud, too bright, too everything. BvS despite being over 2 1/2 hours had way too much crammed into the end, but Affleck was good, Gal Gadot was good, even if nobody has a clue what the fuck Jesse Eisenberg was doing. And the couple of reviews of Suicide Squad say the same kind of thing; Will Smith, Margot Robbie & Jared Leto are great in the roles and the film really works until the big show down in the final act when they're trying to set up what comes next.

I think Honest Trailers were on the money about BvS "It's harshest critics refused to admit anything about it was cool. Even though you'd be lying if you thought this wasn't awesome." (Batman warehouse fight)

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2727 on: August 04, 2016, 12:56:32 PM »
Reviews for Suicide Squad have been coming in and overall reviews are that it is bad. Not Dawn of Justice bad, but not good either. One person said it was not fun bad despite having actors like Viola Davis and scene stealers Margot Robbie and Jared Leto. Rotten tomatoes has given it 40% rating which is twenty percent higher then Dawn of Justice. Dawn of Justice had way too much going on. Wonder Woman had little to do in the movie, except at the end. Luthor was just plain insane, don't care much for Eisenberg's portrayal. The scene with the weird guy in Bruce's dream telling him Lois was the key was unnecessary. The line at the end where Bruce says he failed Clark in life, is a bit odd seeing how he wanted to kill him for the majority of the movie.

How did Luthor know Clark was Superman, and Bruce was Batman? That was never explained, aside from the computer files. How did he get them? From Amanda Waller? The whole nightmare sequence with the Parademons was odd. How did Bruce know to dream about those and the Omega symbol for Darkseid? It seemed like an odd cross of dream and premonition and wasn't really necessary. Some of the fight scenes looked a bit choppy, not quite as smooth as previous fight scenes with Batman in other movies. The batsuit appeared too clunky compared to others which were more streamlined and allowed for better movement.

Overall, the Ultimate Edition was slightly better with the additional scenes added which filled in some gaps. They're trying too hard to throw everything into each movie. They should look back at the Tim Burton and Christopher Nolan movies to see what worked. Granted, the third Nolan film was a disaster and made absolutely no sense plot wise. They could have done something epic with the introduction of Bane, but again the use of the character fell flat.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2728 on: August 04, 2016, 02:49:12 PM »
The MCU obviously spent a lot of time in planning.
About that planning...
Remember in Thor where the Infinity Gauntlet was in Odin's vault? It wasn't stolen from the vault yet somehow Thanos has it.
SHIELD wasn't even called SHIELD in Iron Man, they hadn't got round to using the acronym and they weren't keen on anyone knowing they existed. Yet also they've been called SHIELD for 50+ years, have a huge base in the middle of Washington DC and everybody knows they exist.
After dismantling the last Hydra base in Age of Ultron, Hydra is back up and running by Ant-man.
Then there's dear old Tony, approached to join the Avengers in Iron Man but by Iron Man 2 his team player credentials are so bad that he won't be asked to join Avengers before becoming the de facto team leader in Avengers Assemble.

Luthor was just plain insane, don't care much for Eisenberg's portrayal.
I think Eisenberg was doing what was asked of him, it just what was being ask for was .... er ... well....

How did Luthor know Clark was Superman, and Bruce was Batman? That was never explained, aside from the computer files.
Reading between the lines, Lex learned about the secret identities through the Mother Boxes and\or Steppenwolf, based on the deleted scene and Lex's talk of Gods at the end of the movie.

The scene with the weird guy in Bruce's dream telling him Lois was the key was unnecessary...... How did Bruce know to dream about those and the Omega symbol for Darkseid? It seemed like an odd cross of dream and premonition and wasn't really necessary.
The weird guy is the Flash and he's doing a little bit of time traveling "I'm here too early..", so the Knightmare sequence isn't Bruce dreaming but him experiencing what the future will look like if things don't change and Lois dies.

The batsuit appeared too clunky compared to others which were more streamlined and allowed for better movement.
That bulky, slightly squat looking Batsuit that he starts off in stylistically is from The Dark Knight Returns and I think it suits Affleck's older, more grizzled Batman. And then there's the power armour, which again is straight out of the comics but if you're going toe-to-toe with Superman a little extra armour isn't a bad idea.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2729 on: August 04, 2016, 03:33:01 PM »
Minor correction - There are two Infinity Gauntlets in the MCU, one for each hand. That's why Thanos has a gauntlet while Odin does also - if you look at the images side-by-side they are for opposite hands.

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2730 on: August 04, 2016, 03:49:03 PM »
According to reports and Leto himself, alot of the scenes filmed involving the Joker have been cut out of the movie. This leaves the character with far less scenes then the others.

The Steppenwulf scene with Lex comes at the very end of the movie as the police enter the downed ship to arrest Lex. Lex knew about Superman's weaknesses well before that meeting as he had that wheelchair lined with lead which prevented Superman from seeing the bomb. Also, the mercs in the desert early in the movie were working for Lex. They knew Lois was coming and were prepare. Lex knew of her connection to Superman, they weren't exactly discreet as seen by having him appear on her hotel balcony after the attack on the hearing. The mercs then burned the bodies to make it appear that Superman was responsible. Lex didn't gain access to the alien ship till part way through the movie, and the motherbox. Too many plot holes in the movie.

Bruce was pondering how to get into Lex's place to get the data, when Alfred told him he was personally invited to the event by Lex. How did Lex know to kidnap Martha Kent? The nightmare/Flash scene was a dream as Bruce suddenly jolts awake from it to see the decryption had completed while he was asleep. The whole nightmare sequence was unnecessary and didn't really serve the overall plot of the movie other then fill up time which could have been used better.

The batsuit used when Bruce wasn't using the armored one was bulky when it came to fighting in the warehouse towards the end. The choregraphed fights were a bit choppy and jerky. It seemed like the material they used for the suit didn't allow for much movement and appeared stiff compared to previous designs.

In Iron Man, they used the full name, when Pepper said "Wow! That's a mouthful." Coulson replied, "We know, we're working on it.". By the end of the movie, Coulson said, "Just call us S.H.I.E.L.D.". HYDRA was never really disbanded, they might have taken out von Struker's base of operations, but there are always other bases. "Cut off one head, two grow back" is HYDRA's motto. But, Zemo shows up in Civil War to take over. And, is set to return in future movies. The Treskeleon wasn't built in D.C. till the late 80s seen in Ant-Man. S.H.I.E.L.D wasn't widely known to the public, only to certain lawmakers and the secret shadow council seen in the first Avengers movie. HYDRA is one of the main organizations the Avengers and company combat throughout the comics. They tried to do a variation of A.I.M. in Iron Man 3 with Killian Aldridge using Extremis. Which was poorly done in the movie.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2016, 04:50:57 PM by SapphireStar »

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2731 on: August 04, 2016, 11:05:50 PM »
According to reports and Leto himself, alot of the scenes filmed involving the Joker have been cut out of the movie. This leaves the character with far less scenes then the others.

The Steppenwulf scene with Lex comes at the very end of the movie as the police enter the downed ship to arrest Lex. Lex knew about Superman's weaknesses well before that meeting as he had that wheelchair lined with lead which prevented Superman from seeing the bomb. Also, the mercs in the desert early in the movie were working for Lex. They knew Lois was coming and were prepare. Lex knew of her connection to Superman, they weren't exactly discreet as seen by having him appear on her hotel balcony after the attack on the hearing. The mercs then burned the bodies to make it appear that Superman was responsible. Lex didn't gain access to the alien ship till part way through the movie, and the motherbox. Too many plot holes in the movie.

Bruce was pondering how to get into Lex's place to get the data, when Alfred told him he was personally invited to the event by Lex. How did Lex know to kidnap Martha Kent? The nightmare/Flash scene was a dream as Bruce suddenly jolts awake from it to see the decryption had completed while he was asleep. The whole nightmare sequence was unnecessary and didn't really serve the overall plot of the movie other then fill up time which could have been used better.

The batsuit used when Bruce wasn't using the armored one was bulky when it came to fighting in the warehouse towards the end. The choregraphed fights were a bit choppy and jerky. It seemed like the material they used for the suit didn't allow for much movement and appeared stiff compared to previous designs.

In Iron Man, they used the full name, when Pepper said "Wow! That's a mouthful." Coulson replied, "We know, we're working on it.". By the end of the movie, Coulson said, "Just call us S.H.I.E.L.D.". HYDRA was never really disbanded, they might have taken out von Struker's base of operations, but there are always other bases. "Cut off one head, two grow back" is HYDRA's motto. But, Zemo shows up in Civil War to take over. And, is set to return in future movies. The Treskeleon wasn't built in D.C. till the late 80s seen in Ant-Man. S.H.I.E.L.D wasn't widely known to the public, only to certain lawmakers and the secret shadow council seen in the first Avengers movie. HYDRA is one of the main organizations the Avengers and company combat throughout the comics. They tried to do a variation of A.I.M. in Iron Man 3 with Killian Aldridge using Extremis. Which was poorly done in the movie.

That all makes it sound like if they had split BvS into two movies (like Age of Ultron should have been) it still might not have been enough to show and tie together all these individual threads Snyder was weaving into it. It's so many mistakes in a single film, it's hard to believe all of that was achieved, especially with such big-name heroes.

And HYDRA was never a singular entity. Different varieties existed therein and while they corroborated, they by and large had different agendas and ideas about how to operate. Gideon Malick from season 3 of Agents of SHIELD was part of a much older HYDRA that the Red Skull's and most of the rest of the modern HYDRA seemed to know nothing about. So they're still out there, although after this last series of events they're probably so browbeaten it'll take them quite some time to reorganize and resurface. Although at this point, as villains they've become a bit passe. Glad season 4 is shaping up to have some supernatural elements to deal with, that should bring in some interesting threats AND allies.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2732 on: August 05, 2016, 02:45:17 AM »
Minor correction - There are two Infinity Gauntlets in the MCU, one for each hand. That's why Thanos has a gauntlet while Odin does also - if you look at the images side-by-side they are for opposite hands.
But that doesn't make sense. There are 6 Infinity gems and only 6 of them, Vision has the Mind gem not a Mind gem, so why there be two Gauntlets that both had slots for 6 gems? The simplest explanation is that the writers didn't plan that far ahead when the Gauntlet was revealed to be in the vault.

S.H.I.E.L.D wasn't widely known to the public, only to certain lawmakers and the secret shadow council seen in the first Avengers movie.
Did you know that despite being created in 1909, MI6 didn't exist until 1994? Everybody knew MI6 existed because for starters James Bond and John le Carré but until 1994 it was illegal for the UK Government to publicly acknowledge it's existence despite there being tours of London that would point out where MI6's HQ was. Likewise the CIA's work might be secret but it's hard to deny it exists when there's a huge office complex in Langley that has CIA plastered across the front of it.
So there's been a huge office complex in the middle of Washington DC for the last 30-40 years that has the SHIELD logo out front (despite the fact they weren't using the SHIELD acronym until 7-8 years ago) and nobody has noticed it and nobody has asked what this SHIELD organisation is because journalists in Washington DC are noted for having less than zero interest in the Government and politics.
Of course the simpler explanation is that the writers didn't plan that far ahead.

I don't think things like this make the Marvel movies bad, but the idea that the writers know exactly what they're doing and where everything is going? That's just plain wrong.

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2733 on: August 05, 2016, 06:27:59 AM »
About that planning...
Remember in Thor where the Infinity Gauntlet was in Odin's vault? It wasn't stolen from the vault yet somehow Thanos has it.
SHIELD wasn't even called SHIELD in Iron Man, they hadn't got round to using the acronym and they weren't keen on anyone knowing they existed. Yet also they've been called SHIELD for 50+ years, have a huge base in the middle of Washington DC and everybody knows they exist.
After dismantling the last Hydra base in Age of Ultron, Hydra is back up and running by Ant-man.
Then there's dear old Tony, approached to join the Avengers in Iron Man but by Iron Man 2 his team player credentials are so bad that he won't be asked to join Avengers before becoming the de facto team leader in Avengers Assemble.

Yeah, I didn't say immaculately stunning, but for such an operation with so many moving parts they've done a fairly admiral job. Those aren't huge gaping plot holes. The biggest one probably being the last one, and even that could be some last desperate holdouts with more money than sense.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2734 on: August 05, 2016, 08:30:19 AM »
Yeah, I didn't say immaculately stunning, but for such an operation with so many moving parts they've done a fairly admiral job. Those aren't huge gaping plot holes. The biggest one probably being the last one, and even that could be some last desperate holdouts with more money than sense.

Tony Stark being called in was most definitely a 'desperate measures' move, and I suspect there's more to it than that, with relation to another plot hole. We never really get where SHIELD draws its funding from (especially post-HYDRA reveal) so maybe trying to foster good relations with Stark would have given them a backdoor option for additional funding. After all, the Tesseract destroyed an entire huge facility of theirs just a day or so beforehand.

The MCU is by no means perfect, it's just the most solid continuity of any ongoing thing (but then, so few things actually go this far it's hard to find anything comparable, even Star Wars) and got off to a great start. While The Incredible Hulk didn't make a lot of $$$, it still got decent reviews and conversely while Iron Man 2 wasn't warmly received, it made even more money than the first. They too fell victim to the 'too much at once' syndrome of BvS with Age of Ultron, resulting in a lukewarm and underdeveloped villain, too little exposure to the twins as new characters, the out-of-nowhere Bruce/Natasha romance and a few other points that could have used more time to flesh out. Civil War, on the other hand, while immensely crowded as far as the cast list, never felt rushed nor bloated. I know it wasn't Joss Whedon's fault but I definitely have more faith in the Russo brothers as directors of larger ensemble films going forward after that.

But DC can't seem to figure out that staying the course with Zack Snyder is the worst possible move they could be making. Marvel switches up directors when things go south. Even if Iron Man 2 made more than the first film, the critical reviews and audience reception weren't as favorable and they still got someone else to direct Iron Man 3 instead of keeping Jon Favreau (although that turned out to have a different result than I'm sure they intended) and obviously Joss jumped ship after Age of Ultron and didn't get stuck to the next Avengers film. This is almost unprecedented as a corporation is actually learning from mistakes and adapting, very quickly, to keep making its product either decent or outstanding as they keep churning it out. Where as Warner Bros. didn't seem to get the message that the third act of Man of Steel being total destruction porn didn't really cotton to audiences, the finale of BvS wasn't much different. Sure, they addressed the problem of civilian casualties (in a ham-fisted way) but when 3 of the four main combatants are pretty much invincible and just tearing up the battlefield, it feels a bit empty and then lacks the touch of human drama that the civilians on the ground and in mortal danger present. They just can't seem to win with whatever strategy they employ.

I'm really curious to see Suicide Squad's opening weekend box office now. It might not be too late to scrap Justice League, after all. Let them cut their losses, take a break for a year or two, figure their shit out (maybe hire a ringer from Marvel to explain what exactly sucks about what they're doing and how to do it right) and then start over. True fans would be willing to wait, and more importantly, willing to forgive as long as they learn from their flubs.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2735 on: August 05, 2016, 09:45:45 AM »
Those aren't huge gaping plot holes.
I kinda disagree, but they are big plot holes but they happen off screen so you don't really notice them unless you are looking. And as long the particular movie you're watching is enjoyable they can be filed away under 'who cares?' but it doesn't make the hole any smaller. Which got me thinking, it's a little difficult judge after only three movies, especially when one of them will only have been seen by die-hard lunatics at midnight screenings, but the DC movies seem to be far more connected and driven by the preceding one than the MCU ones.
The fight at the end of MoS is what gives Batman his motivation in BvS.
If the plot rumours are true, then the Squad is formed because after the fight that killed Superman the US Government would like a word with Batman.
And leaving Wonder Woman to one side as it's set during the First World War, then supposedly end of Suicide Squad sets up Justice League.

Compare that to the MCU, putting aside the post credit Easter eggs because a 30 second spot in the credits isn't really a story\plot, how many movies have had any effect on what happens next? Sure Civil War is the direct fallout from Age of Ultron  but apart from that it's hard to find examples of how one film really drives another. If anything they actively ignore what's come before, at the end of Avengers the team members all went their separate ways and they'd only come back together if things were desperate enough. Fast forward to Age of Ultron and Tony has built an Avengers club house that they all regularly hang out in. Not only that but between the two Avengers films, Tony destroyed all of his Iron Man suits because having that many weapons laying around was a bad idea only to have built an small army of automated Iron Man suits ready for Ultron to take control of.

True fans would .....
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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2736 on: August 05, 2016, 11:21:56 PM »
Depending on which Marvel Earth is being taken into account, each Marvel earth is different. You have one where Storm remained a vampire. You have the Zombie Marvel universe. There is another Marvel Earth which has eight Infinity Gems instead of six. The MCU hasn't explained how many Infinity Gems there are. Which means there is a possibility there may be ten or twelve. We've only seen a few, the red gem from Thor: The Dark World. The Teseract. The gem from Guardians of the Galaxy and the gem which Vision has. In the comics, Adam Warlock had the vampiric soul gem. Seeing as his cocoon was seen in the possession of the Collector, he may be one of the characters popping up during the Infinity War movie. The main Marvel universe which is Earth 616 is the one that has only one Infinity Gauntlet with six gems.

All the reports I am hearing regarding Suicide Squad is that it is a mess from start to finish that meanders about. The DCU tries too hard to throw everything into each movie, to get in as much as possible with little character development. Marvel takes the time to build up the solo characters, building to the bigger event movies. Each solo movie ties into the previous ones. How would Ant-Man have been picked to be in Civil War if Falcon hadn't encountered him in the Ant-Man movie? Spider-Man was covertly mentioned in Ant-Man by the reporter girl who was talking to Falcon on the bench in the park who was looking for Ant-man.

Tony had created the extra suits due to his experience during the Battle of New York. It was his coping mechanism as he feared another threat. By the end of Iron Man 3, it wasn't the amount of suits that made him stronger, he was Iron Man because the people around him gave him the strength to overcome his weaknesses. Hawkeye retired at the end of the movie to be with his family. Cap and Black Widow remained to train the newbie's. Banner leaving sets up his involvement in Thor: Ragnarok.

In Agent Carter, Peggy is working for the predecessor to S.H.I.E.L.D. her cover is that she works at the telephone company. Natasha Romanoff used the cover as an executive assistant in Iron Man 2 to assess Stark for inclusion into the Avengers Initiative. The outside of the building in DC didn't bear any S.H.I.E.L.D. markings. To the general public, it probably appeared as a corporate/research think tank type building. S.H.I.E.L.D. operated from the cloaked Helicarriers which were virtually invisible in the sky. The only identifying marker is in the lobby of the Triskelion with the S.H.I.E.L.D. symbole. Interestingly, the Triskelion was a creation of Norman Osborne for the Ultimates, the Earth-1610 version of the Avengers.

It will be interesting to see how they play out having the new director of S.H.I.E.L.D. in season 4. And, with this new director, would he crossover to the movies?

Marvel had their share of hits and misses before they turned things around with the MCU. The Ghost Rider movies didn't fare well. Blade was pretty successful, though the third movie was kind of campy in its storytelling. About the only thing of interest was Ryan Reynolds role as Hannibal King bring his signature snark to the role. Even Bruce mentioned in the Avengers movie why he stayed away from vast populated areas was because of what happened in the fight in Harlem against the Abomination. I am curious to see James Wan's take on Aquaman. He did a pretty good job directing Fast and Furious 7. Dunno, hopefuly Geoff Johns can turn things around as the co-president in charge of DC Entertainment.

It seems from the Wonder Woman trailer, that they are introducing Ares as the main antagonist? I remember in the Justice League cartoon, Ares would sometimes disguise himself as a civilian or lookalike to take someone's place like a general. Which could account for why there were soldiers storming Themyscara Island. And, why in the one seen it is shown with her having a sword strapped to her back while in a blue dress walking towards Danny Houston's character. They have David Thewlis (Remus Lupin) listed as part of the cast but not who he is playing.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 01:04:08 AM by SapphireStar »

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2737 on: August 06, 2016, 06:31:13 AM »
The MCU hasn't explained how many Infinity Gems there are.
If you ignore Thor's vision in Age of Ultron that showed 6 Infinity gems and when the Collector was handed one of the gems and the end of Dark World he commented "One down, five to go." So, yeah there could be any number of Infinity gems, just as long as that number is six.

Marvel takes the time to build up the solo characters, building to the bigger event movies. Each solo movie ties into the previous ones
Making a reference to a previous movie is not the same thing as the previous movie the story forward in subsequent for lack of a better term episodes. Tony building the Arc reactor in Iron Man is the motivation for Vanko to build the Whiplash suit; Ultron flattening a small country is the motivation of the Accords and Civil War, there is an action it causes a reaction. Out of 13 movies only 3 of them have any effect of 'what happens next'. SHIELD gets wiped out\dismantled at the end of Civil War but don't worry, two movies later it's back up and running again, with no real explanation about how it happened it's just hand waved away in AoS as Coulson doing 'something' for Fury off screening, telling the audience not showing the audience.

http://collider.com/russo-brothers-captain-america-civil-war-interview/

Quote
Kevin’s very good about just attacking each movie as they come and then figuring out what the movies are after that.

Quote
The most simple way I could put it is Marvel doesn’t come to the filmmakers and say, “Here’s what the next movie is.” They come to the filmmakers and say, “What is the next movie?”

So Marvel aren't planning ahead, they are planning backwards. The question being asked isn't "How can we use the Iron Man film to drive the next Captain America film?" it's "That's Iron Man out the way are they any bits we can use as hooks for Captain America?"

Good writing shows the audience instead of telling the audience, Marvel are relying on telling not showing to hold the MCU together. So seeing Vanko's reaction in Iron Man 2 is showing, Kevin Feige answering questions at a press event to explain there are really two Infinity Gauntlets is telling.

How would Ant-Man have been picked to be in Civil War if Falcon hadn't encountered him in the Ant-Man movie?
There was a short fight between Falcon and Ant-Man, at no point did the pair of them sit down have a chat. But somehow that pair of them are buddies by Civil War, yet again it's telling not showing.

By the end of Iron Man 3, it wasn't the amount of suits that made him stronger...
So Tony doesn't want to rely on advanced technology and vast array of Iron Man suits and to prove the point he destroys all of his Iron Man suits. But because the Avengers can't be everywhere at once, Tony's solution is to use advanced technology and a vast array of autonomous Iron Man suits.

Hawkeye retired at the end of the movie to be with his family.
Only to come out of retirement by Civil War.

Banner leaving sets up his involvement in Thor: Ragnarok.
Bruce left in such a way that nobody on the team, not even the worlds best spy, could find him, except that not being found thing doesn't look like it's going to work out. And if Marvel follow their track record, we won't see Bruce going off world, he'll just appear in his Gladiator gear at some point and how he got there will hand waved away in two lines of dialogue.

The outside of the building in DC didn't bear any S.H.I.E.L.D. markings. To the general public, it probably appeared as a corporate/research think tank type building.
Good 'ol SHIELD that wasn't called SHIELD until 2007 except it was definitely called SHIELD in 1989 when Hank Pym worked there. And of course everybody knows that all corporate research buildings come equipped with landing pads for giant flying aircraft carriers  ::)

It's not that the individual movies are bad, they're not, they are great fun to watch. But the idea that there is a really detailed plan and that everything is connected is a myth, barely anything is connected and even when it is, those connections will be ignored when it's convenient.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2738 on: August 06, 2016, 08:32:29 AM »
It seems from the Wonder Woman trailer, that they are introducing Ares as the main antagonist? I remember in the Justice League cartoon, Ares would sometimes disguise himself as a civilian or lookalike to take someone's place like a general. Which could account for why there were soldiers storming Themyscara Island. And, why in the one seen it is shown with her having a sword strapped to her back while in a blue dress walking towards Danny Houston's character. They have David Thewlis (Remus Lupin) listed as part of the cast but not who he is playing.

I remember Ares in that Justice League Unlimited episode, hiring Hephaestus to forge the Annihilator. He tricked a warring nation into using it against their enemies, so I wonder if he'll do something similar in this one, otherwise I'm not sure why Diana would take sides here. I wonder who that woman in that one shot with the strange Phantom of the Opera style mask was from the trailer. I had heard speculation they were going to try using Circe as the villain but that someone with such powerful magic would be inappropriate for the origin movie. I don't think they addressed the idea that Superman is vulnerable to magic in BvS, did they? Might have been nice to at least mention that Kryptonite wasn't the only thing that could hurt him since they're being very loose in their interpretation of things, like Batman being so callous about taking life. It sure looked like Wonder Woman's enchanted weapons were doing damage to Doomsday even if she wasn't putting all her strength into it, so the other Kryptonian would share both the weakness to Kryptonite and vulnerability to magic, but since they went out of their way to point out that the fight venues were 'empty' or 'abandoned' or 'uninhabited' you'd think they could at least mention it in passing.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 11:16:58 AM by Mathim »

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2739 on: August 06, 2016, 09:53:15 AM »
I had heard speculation they were going to try using Circe as the villain but that someone with such powerful magic would be inappropriate for the origin movie.
Yes, because an character that is either a demi-goddess or at least an immortal mystic warrior could in no way be classed a powerful magic being and having an antagonist that possessed equally powerful magic is a lousy idea. It'd be much better if the antagonist was a full blown God, because they are not the tiniest bit magical.


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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2740 on: August 06, 2016, 01:20:41 PM »
With them forged by Hephaestus that would classify them as mystical. Anything enchanted, mystical, etc seems to be able to hurt any Kryptonian. Even magic, but that wasn't addressed, at least not yet. Up until Wonder Woman showing up, it might not have been known, but Bruce probably updated his files with the new information.

I think the actress playing that masked character is Elena Anaya who played Aleera, the vampire bride of Dracula from the Van Helsing movie with Hugh Jackman. She could be an exiled Amazon. In the animated Wonder Woman movie they did a while ago with Kerri Russell as the voice of Wonder Woman, they had Ares imprisoned on Themyscara/Paradise Island. He was released by an Amazon who had sided with Ares. With Ares released, he proceeded to advance on the world with the army of the dead.

So, it is possible that is who she is. Could be a rival who wanted to be the wearer of the mystical armaments, but Diana took them instead. Or, she could be the woman who turns into Cheetah?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 01:46:58 PM by SapphireStar »

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2741 on: August 06, 2016, 02:25:09 PM »
Looking at when Wonder Woman is set, the cast is essentially going to be full of throw away characters. Any human characters won't be appearing in the follow up films as they'll all have died of old age (barring some mystical intervention), and there might be some mileage with Cheetah as some sort returning villain so would they want to burn that bridge? 

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2742 on: August 06, 2016, 04:47:15 PM »
With them forged by Hephaestus that would classify them as mystical. Anything enchanted, mystical, etc seems to be able to hurt any Kryptonian. Even magic, but that wasn't addressed, at least not yet. Up until Wonder Woman showing up, it might not have been known, but Bruce probably updated his files with the new information.

I think the actress playing that masked character is Elena Anaya who played Aleera, the vampire bride of Dracula from the Van Helsing movie with Hugh Jackman. She could be an exiled Amazon. In the animated Wonder Woman movie they did a while ago with Kerri Russell as the voice of Wonder Woman, they had Ares imprisoned on Themyscara/Paradise Island. He was released by an Amazon who had sided with Ares. With Ares released, he proceeded to advance on the world with the army of the dead.

So, it is possible that is who she is. Could be a rival who wanted to be the wearer of the mystical armaments, but Diana took them instead. Or, she could be the woman who turns into Cheetah?

That would make more sense, these kind of movies tend to pit the hero against someone of similar (or identical) ability and prowess, so for her to go head-to-head with another Amazon it would be par for the course as far as general superhero movies go. Whether she's just a stepping stone on the way to taking on the god of war himself, or if she's empowered by him to make her strong enough to compete with the Princess of the Amazons, it's still workable. It's just a little odd that we saw her first fighting a beast on the level of Doomsday and now we're taking a step backward and seeing her fighting human soldiers, and not even modern, better-armed ones.

I understand Kevin Smith and the Angry Joe show are giving Suicide Squad good reviews and I know that unlike the critics of cinema in general, they're true comic book fans so their perspectives might be a little better to go by than Rotten Tomatoes. I might see it if I win free tickets like I did with Deadpool but I still don't want to fork over any cash to DC yet. If the Ultimate Cut of BvS is supposed to contain at least half an hour more of footage, from what I'm hearing, Suicide Squad might well have nearly an hour of extra footage in its Director's Edition.

It's apparently getting record-breaking estimates for its opening weekend (the one thing they do well is marketing, I'll give them that) but like BvS, it could see a massive drop-off. If it ends up out-performing its predecessor, that would be impressive, since half the team roster is relative unknowns compared to the two biggest names in DC lore. I'm hearing that it's not being allowed to show in Mexico or China, though for different reasons. That could certainly cripple its worldwide take.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2016, 10:04:44 PM by Mathim »

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2743 on: August 07, 2016, 01:29:55 AM »
This is where Marvel has succeeded. They make the solo films first, that way the audience get familiarized with the characters before creating an ensemble film. It would have been a smart play for DC to do the same. Though, if they are using Ares as the main villain, he could be influencing the soldiers which could give them enhanced abilities? In the trailer, when Wonder Woman is approaching Danny Houston's character, it looks like he recognizes her?

Apparently, Rob Liefeld who created Deadpool saw Suicide Squad and didn't exactly love the experience. But liked Harley. After Kevin Smith gave Dawn of Justice a negative review but then backtracked it?

Yeah, that is what is being reported, that at least two of the huge markets for distribution won't show the movie. And, fans are trying to get Rotten Tomatoes shut down for the negative reviews. It could suffer the same drop off that Dawn of Justice did due to word of mouth. The biggest draw for the movie, is Harley and the Joker. Liefeld called Suicide Squad Harley's Wolverine: Origins.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2744 on: August 07, 2016, 02:38:15 AM »
They make the solo films first, that way the audience get familiarized with the characters before creating an ensemble film. It would have been a smart play for DC to do the same.
My memory must be going, when did Marvel release the solo films for Black Widow, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Falcon, War Machine, Spiderman, Black Panther?

And, fans are trying to get Rotten Tomatoes shut down for the negative reviews.
Anyone doing that kind of thing is frankly ridiculous because
a) it won't work
b) they were asking for the shut down before the movie was released and therefore before they'd seen it
c) it makes them look thin skinned with same capacity for criticism as two year old child
d) it makes the movie look bad by association

Liefeld called Suicide Squad Harley's Wolverine: Origins.
Hope not, the solo Wolverine films are not exactly great.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2745 on: August 07, 2016, 09:19:29 AM »
This is where Marvel has succeeded. They make the solo films first, that way the audience get familiarized with the characters before creating an ensemble film. It would have been a smart play for DC to do the same. Though, if they are using Ares as the main villain, he could be influencing the soldiers which could give them enhanced abilities? In the trailer, when Wonder Woman is approaching Danny Houston's character, it looks like he recognizes her?

Apparently, Rob Liefeld who created Deadpool saw Suicide Squad and didn't exactly love the experience. But liked Harley. After Kevin Smith gave Dawn of Justice a negative review but then backtracked it?

Yeah, that is what is being reported, that at least two of the huge markets for distribution won't show the movie. And, fans are trying to get Rotten Tomatoes shut down for the negative reviews. It could suffer the same drop off that Dawn of Justice did due to word of mouth. The biggest draw for the movie, is Harley and the Joker. Liefeld called Suicide Squad Harley's Wolverine: Origins.

Yeah, that seemed to be the thing SS has in common with BvS, the fact that the most prominent new character(s), were the most positively received aspects. For BvS it was Batfleck, and for SS it was Harley and Deadshot. I guess maybe they weren't jumping the gun announcing her solo film even before Suicide Squad premiered. Honestly though, there's probably a better DC cinematic universe that could be built around JUST Batman's mythos and disregarding the others, since there's so much tie-in to his rogues here.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2746 on: August 07, 2016, 10:09:57 AM »
Just come back from watching Suicide Squad and it's a fun film, well for the most part.
(Just going off on a tangent for a second, there was a new\slightly different Doctor Strange. It hit me that Benedict Cumberbatch is channelling Hugh Laurie, because Stephen Strange sounds a lot like Gregory House.)
There are lots of things to like about the film;
great soundtrack
the color palette is vibrant as opposed to the grim, muted, grey-scale stuff in MoS & BvS.
The script is funny and works for most of the movie.
Will Smith is great, but it's Will Smith who a walking vat of screen charisma, so no shocks there.
The "universe building" cameos actually work.
Viola Davis comes across as a stone cold bitch, she really is 'The Wall'.
Margot Robbie is great, it would have been really easy to over play Harley, but she managed to get the right level of nuts.
I want to see more of this version of the Joker.
The final set piece fight, isn't a sensory assault in the way MoS & BvS were.

Then there's the not so great:
Joel Kinnaman's Rick Flag is a little underwhelming and if Katana's part ended up on the cutting room floor, I'm not sure anyone would have noticed.
Then there's the Enchantress, I can see what they were trying to go for when they picked the character but it doesn't quiet work.
And unfortunately Cara Delevingne, well let's just say she's not the best female member of the cast by a long way.
Those last two points become really clear in the last act of the film. Which is where the big problem is, if only two of three acts work you definitely don't want the final act to be the problem child. If the film slumps in the middle but ends on a high, then you come out on a high. But when the final act is a little flat, that's going to color the perception of the film.

I didn't see that many Easter eggs thrown around in the film but the "John Ostrander Federal Building"  ;D Ostrander is the guy that created the Squad

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2747 on: August 07, 2016, 03:07:54 PM »
There is so much material that they could use for just a series of Batman movies, like Hush, No Man's Land, Knightfall, Knightsend, etc. If the Harley and Wonder Woman movie succeeds, I wonder if it would open the door for other movies about other female characters like Catwoman, Birds of Prey, Zatanna.

Apparently, a report came out saying that Zach Snyder directed a small portion of Suicide Squad. Like seriously? If this is true, will he be doing that with the other movies? If one of the other director's doesn't do something he likes, is he going to jump in and take over?

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2748 on: August 07, 2016, 03:09:15 PM »
I saw suicide Squad. Id just put it on the "Was OKay" category.

Though they need to fire their editor because I honestly got whiplash in it and the shaky camera during fight scenes had me feeling dizzy.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2749 on: August 07, 2016, 04:16:15 PM »
I saw suicide Squad. Id just put it on the "Was OKay" category.
The course of human history will not be changed by this movie, that much is certain. But those early reviews that were saying it was worse than the Fant4stic just wrong.

Though they need to fire their editor because I honestly got whiplash in it and the shaky camera during fight scenes had me feeling dizzy.
Then they'd be firing the wrong guy  ;D The director of photography is the one responsible for the camera work.

Update:
Looks like Suicide Squad has had a decent enough opening weekend, taking over $130 Million. Best August opening figures.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 04:37:54 PM by mia h »