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Author Topic: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies  (Read 136449 times)

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Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2700 on: July 31, 2016, 10:44:08 PM »
I did watch the Ultimate Version first. I haven't watched the regular version yet. The Ultimate Edition seemed to flow more easily and played things out a bit more. Plus, they put Jena Malone's scenes back in which helped. There was roughly about thirty or more minutes of extra footage that was put back in.

Interestingly, the guy who played Jimmy Olsen in B v S, is the same guy who played Grant in Smallville who was running the Daily Planet in Season 7, who also turned out to be a clone of Lex's dead brother Julian.

But did the more fluid flow of the story actually fix what was wrong with the bulk of the plot? From what I saw of Prometheus, there were a lot of things cut out of it that would have fixed all the big things people didn't like about it but I'm not convinced BvS's underlying Snyderization could be repaired so easily. I wonder if he ever saw Justice League: War. That might have been something that could have helped from the start, even before conceiving Man of Steel, just putting into his head the framework of something that was both really good and represented the ultimate end goal they were trying to achieve.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 10:46:18 PM by Mathim »

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2701 on: August 01, 2016, 02:40:33 AM »
Finally saw B v S: Dawn of Justice. Its interesting, there was a nod to the Death in the Family story where The Joker burned down Wayne Manor after killing Jason Todd. Whose Robin suit is hanging in the batcave spray painted.
In Death in the Family, Jason was killed in an Ethiopian refugee camp and Joker didn't touch Wayne Manor. I thought the burned out Manor was more of a nod to The Dark Knight Returns, when Alfred blows the place up after Bruce 'dies' fighting Superman.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2702 on: August 01, 2016, 07:59:46 AM »
In Death in the Family, Jason was killed in an Ethiopian refugee camp and Joker didn't touch Wayne Manor. I thought the burned out Manor was more of a nod to The Dark Knight Returns, when Alfred blows the place up after Bruce 'dies' fighting Superman.

Ugh...I think I like the way she described it better even if that's not what happened. Alfred should never outlive Bruce!

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2703 on: August 01, 2016, 08:15:23 AM »
But Alfred didn't outlive Bruce; in the big fight at the end of The Dark Knight Returns, Bruce beats Clark (with the help of a one armed Green Arrow) but then 'dies' of a heart-attack. At the same time it's revealed that Bruce Wayne is Batman, Wayne Manor and the Batcave are both destroyed in huge explosion triggered by Alfred. Then at Bruce's funeral, Clark hears Bruce's heart starting to beat again, he just winks at Robin and walks off knowing that Bruce drugged himself to make it look like he died but hadn't got the dose exactly right. The final pages are Bruce, Robin & the Sons of Batman setting up a new base of operations.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2704 on: August 01, 2016, 09:07:14 PM »
With the numerous varying stories which have been created, some do not go with the continuity or have been retconned out of existence, like Infinity Crisis. The death of the Flash, Supergirl during Crisis on Infinity Earths. One of the stories retconned out of existence was the one where Bruce Wayne was married to Selena Kyle formerly Catwoman and they had a daughter Helena who became The Huntress. And, it is implied that the Joker knows Bruce is Batman after he killed Jason. Most stories are stand alones that don't fit within a set story universe or set in a parallel earth.

Dawn of Justice seems to set up the fact that Jason Todd is alive. Which could introduce Ra's al Ghul in the solo Batman movie as Talia saved a resurrected Jason and had him bathe in the Lazarus pit. And, its possible that Bruce already had an encounter with Jason prior to Dawn of Justice by his comment about some good guys don't stay good.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2705 on: August 01, 2016, 09:10:53 PM »
In kind of actually like Barbarra as Oracle. :P  A disabled hero using her mind to save the day.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2706 on: August 01, 2016, 09:16:35 PM »
In a previous article, it was mentioned  about the plot of the Suicide Squad movie, that Amanda Waller releases the Joker because he is the only one who has met the Batman and knows who he is. Which seems to further imply that the spray painted Robin suit belongs to Jason. After Jason's death, Bruce displayed the suit in the batcave as a reminder.

They retconned that out, she's back to being Batgirl, and Selina Kyle no longer knows that Bruce is Batman.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2707 on: August 01, 2016, 09:18:06 PM »
In a previous article, it was mentioned  about the plot of the Suicide Squad movie, that Amanda Waller releases the Joker because he is the only one who has met the Batman and knows who he is. Which seems to further imply that the spray painted Robin suit belongs to Jason. After Jason's death, Bruce displayed the suit in the batcave as a reminder.

They retconned that out, she's back to being Batgirl, and Selina Kyle no longer knows that Bruce is Batman.

Continuity is hard sometimes.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2708 on: August 01, 2016, 09:27:56 PM »
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has kind of revealed who the new director of S.H.I.E.L.D. is. They cast Jason O'Mara (Terra Nova, Life on Mars) in the role. But, they have not stated who it is. Only that the person has roots going all the way back to the 1940s.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2709 on: August 01, 2016, 10:49:24 PM »
Looking at the various planned movies for Marvel I've got to again wonder if it's going to survive. A lot of these are getting obscure even for die-hard fans. I mean Dr. Strange is about where my personal level of interest begins to peter off. I'll admit I was more than tickled awesome by Guardians of the Galaxy (being the only thing I've ever seen where I wish I'd written it), but that was because I didn't even know the Guardians of the Galaxy existed, and it still took me two wikipedia pages and a TV Tropes hunt to find the team featured in the movie.

Movies aren't books of lore. They can't sit there all dusty and impregnable waiting for some sage to dedicate his life to reading it. Avengers 2 nearly drove Joss insane, and even I could see a few rough spots in it.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2710 on: August 01, 2016, 11:02:20 PM »
WHen they announced the Guardians of the Galaxy movie, I thought it was the original team led by Vance Astro in the future. Though, Yondu was part of that team and so was Rita DeMara/Yellowjacket.

Apparently it was revealed in a recent news article that Netflix declined to save Marvel's Agent Carter because they already have a slate of marvel shows and they wanted more original shows? What? Didn't they save Longmire after A & E cancelled?

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2711 on: August 02, 2016, 03:05:44 AM »
In a previous article, it was mentioned  about the plot of the Suicide Squad movie, that Amanda Waller releases the Joker because he is the only one who has met the Batman and knows who he is. Which seems to further imply that the spray painted Robin suit belongs to Jason. After Jason's death, Bruce displayed the suit in the batcave as a reminder.
And in The Dark Knight Returns which BvS is pretty much based on and was written prior to Death in the Family, Jason Todd was killed in action for undisclosed reasons (although 30 years later, it turns out it the Joker's goons beat him to death). As for good guys going bad in Gotham, Harvey Dent fits that description and was also a major villain in TDKR.

They retconned that out, she's back to being Batgirl, and Selina Kyle no longer knows that Bruce is Batman.
Not so much with the retconning, Babs was still Oracle and the Killing Joke 'happened' , however recently she had surgery to heal her paralysis. It's sort of what they did with Felicity on Arrow.

Apparently it was revealed in a recent news article that Netflix declined to save Marvel's Agent Carter because they already have a slate of marvel shows and they wanted more original shows? What? Didn't they save Longmire after A & E cancelled?
Put the two shows side by side; Longmire's viewing figures were the highest for a scripted show on A&E and have stayed constant, Agent Carter's viewing figures were in the toilet having lost about 60% of it's viewers over 2 seasons.
Costs for Longmire are going to be significantly lower; no sets to build, no special effects, props & costumes can all be bought off the shelf etc. Double the production costs for half the viewers doesn't make financial sense.
Netflix already has plenty of Marvel related content with plenty more on the way, Agent Carter doesn't get Netflix any viewers they don't already have but Longmire taps into a different audience which means new subscribers.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2712 on: August 02, 2016, 08:26:57 AM »
Also Agent Carter didn't really do anything to help set up SHIELD, or at least it didn't get to that part yet. It might have helped it to have put more emphasis that its formation would be where they were heading from the beginning. Too little, too late, I suppose. Might have been nice to have things like meeting a young Hank Pym and such.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2713 on: August 02, 2016, 03:00:32 PM »
The articles I've seen have implied that Jason Todd is rumored to appear, and with the easter eggs they've been dropping it looks like a possibility. Along with Ra's al Ghul, which suggests from details emerging that they will base or at least be influenced by the resurrection of Jason Todd and the Red Hood story. In the animated version, Ra's stole the dead body and placed Jason in the Lazarus Pit, unfortunately, due to the amount of time he had been dead and such it drove Jason insane. Dawn of Justice seems to follow more along the lines of the animated Justice League: War. And influenced by the New 52 universe DC established. The writers like to borrow story elements from various stories/parallel earths. They've stated they cherrypick stuff to create something new. So, its possible they picked Batman's darker attitude from The Dark Knight Returns and method of operating. Geoff Johns is now Co-President in charge of DC Entertainment.

Then, by the time the solo Batman movie comes out, The Joker would be an old man if they are using the stories from Alan Moore stories. The villains in The Dark Knight Returns was primarily The Joker who feigned being cured to lure Batman into a trap and then framed him for his murder. The Government sent Superman to kill Batman. The overall villain established by Moore in the graphic novel was The Government.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. would've been cancelled long ago as they had steady drops in ratings, yet they were saved each year. Agent Carter didn't have the special effects like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. with the inclusion of the Inhumans and upcoming superpowers. Agent Carter still had a decent following. And, Longmire isn't the only show to have been saved by Netflix or rebooted on Netflix (Voltron). The logic doesn't gel. They had a perfectly good show with a strong female lead character, and they axed it. The same thing is happening with Jessica Jones. The new season won't start till next year. Why? They wanted to make way for the new shows, Iron Fist, The Defenders and Luke Cage. I agree, Agent Carter had a lot of wasted opportunities with establishing S.H.I.E.L.D., meeting characters like a young Hank Pym. Ant-Man showed the Triskeleon (sp?) being built in 1989 with a brief cameo from Peggy Carter. Netflix could have saved the show if they wanted to, but Disney/Marvel execs probably said no.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2714 on: August 02, 2016, 03:44:46 PM »
The articles I've seen have implied that Jason Todd is rumored to appear, and with the easter eggs they've been dropping it looks like a possibility. Along with Ra's al Ghul, which suggests from details emerging that they will base or at least be influenced by the resurrection of Jason Todd and the Red Hood story. In the animated version, Ra's stole the dead body and placed Jason in the Lazarus Pit, unfortunately, due to the amount of time he had been dead and such it drove Jason insane. Dawn of Justice seems to follow more along the lines of the animated Justice League: War. And influenced by the New 52 universe DC established. The writers like to borrow story elements from various stories/parallel earths. They've stated they cherrypick stuff to create something new. So, its possible they picked Batman's darker attitude from The Dark Knight Returns and method of operating. Geoff Johns is now Co-President in charge of DC Entertainment.

Then, by the time the solo Batman movie comes out, The Joker would be an old man if they are using the stories from Alan Moore stories. The villains in The Dark Knight Returns was primarily The Joker who feigned being cured to lure Batman into a trap and then framed him for his murder. The Government sent Superman to kill Batman. The overall villain established by Moore in the graphic novel was The Government.

Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. would've been cancelled long ago as they had steady drops in ratings, yet they were saved each year. Agent Carter didn't have the special effects like Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. with the inclusion of the Inhumans and upcoming superpowers. Agent Carter still had a decent following. And, Longmire isn't the only show to have been saved by Netflix or rebooted on Netflix (Voltron). The logic doesn't gel. They had a perfectly good show with a strong female lead character, and they axed it. The same thing is happening with Jessica Jones. The new season won't start till next year. Why? They wanted to make way for the new shows, Iron Fist, The Defenders and Luke Cage. I agree, Agent Carter had a lot of wasted opportunities with establishing S.H.I.E.L.D., meeting characters like a young Hank Pym. Ant-Man showed the Triskeleon (sp?) being built in 1989 with a brief cameo from Peggy Carter. Netflix could have saved the show if they wanted to, but Disney/Marvel execs probably said no.

Well to be fair they also nixed Most Wanted too, which had an extremely strong female as part of the leading pair, before it even got a season out. Best case scenario, realistically, they sprinkle flashbacks in the next season of Agents of SHIELD, a bit like they did in the beginning of season 2.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2715 on: August 02, 2016, 03:51:48 PM »
Its possible that the actress who played Mockingbird might be back, but she is set to star in Seth McFarlene's new show. Depends on where they are filming on whether or not she can commute to do a few guest spots on S.H.I.E.L.D.. I can pretty much count on one hand the number of shows with a strong female lead in a television series, excluding comedies. Its just frustrating when good shows are cancelled. That would be the logical thing to use some flashbacks, maybe even dedicate an episode or two to Peggy Carter adventure.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2716 on: August 02, 2016, 04:13:19 PM »
Honestly I don't see DC going with a Red Hood story, don't get me wrong I like the character of Jason Todd and think the writers have done a pretty rehabilitating the character. However, looking at Dawn of Justice the main underpinning for the story is The Dark Knight Returns, with bits of The Death of Superman, Injustice and the reboot of Earth-2 for good measure, which means you don't need to look very far for a dead Jason Todd. Having a "reborn" Jason requires a fair bit of set up and fitting that kind of plot on afterwards is always going to be clunky, when DC brought Jason back it was done the possibly the most laughable and derided way ever, Superboy punched the universe and broke it and some how that meant Jason was alive  :o
Then there's the problem of Thanos and Darkseid; they look the same, they kinda are the same character. Problem is Marvel got theirs on the big screen first, so after having a Thanos wannabe as their main villian, do DC also want a Bucky Barnes knock-off in their Bat-movies?

As for TV network logic, I think the decisions make plenty of sense. A choice between Longmire and Agent Carter is a no-brainer for Netflix. But why keep AoS on air and not Agent Carter? That's a tougher one, I doubt that AoS is going to get renewed for season 5 as it's being shown at 10pm after a 2 hour comedy block so the live viewing figures are going to suck. While there were still Captain America movies in the pipeline, it sort of made sense for SHIELD to be around but after Civil War less so.

Then Netflix putting Jessica Jones on the backburner to "make way" for other shows, that's just not true. The original deal was for Netflix to make 60 episodes for Marvel made up of one season each of Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage & Iron Fist to be rounded off with The Defenders. The plan was to release a new installment about every 6 months, which they've more or less done. Yes the extra season of Daredevil has thrown things off a little but they seem to be back on with the original plan with Luke Cage dropping in September then Iron Fist & Defenders coming in 2017. They also announced that new seasons of Daredevil & Jessica Jones or Luke Cage won't arrive until 2018 at the earliest.

Well to be fair they also nixed Most Wanted too
Most Wanted was cancelled twice, the spin-off was floated then canned in season 3 & 4.

Offline greenknight

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2717 on: August 02, 2016, 04:38:56 PM »
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has kind of revealed who the new director of S.H.I.E.L.D. is. They cast Jason O'Mara (Terra Nova, Life on Mars) in the role. But, they have not stated who it is. Only that the person has roots going all the way back to the 1940s.
New guy playing Cap?
When Coulson showed off the SHIELD shield the week before Civil War, Cap leaves The Shield behind in Civil War, and the week after Civil War, and 6 months into the future,  references "the director" as someone besides himself, I figured Steve Rogers would assume the Commander Rogers role freeing up Falcon to assume the Captain America mantle.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2718 on: August 02, 2016, 09:34:07 PM »
New guy playing Cap?
When Coulson showed off the SHIELD shield the week before Civil War, Cap leaves The Shield behind in Civil War, and the week after Civil War, and 6 months into the future,  references "the director" as someone besides himself, I figured Steve Rogers would assume the Commander Rogers role freeing up Falcon to assume the Captain America mantle.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Cap's a fugitive so it's unlikely. SHIELD is trying to go legit so how would the president giving Cap (and by extension the rest of the team that got locked up in the Raft) a pardon AND a promotion to a high-ranking position in the sort of thing the accords should have been all about in the first place be a feasible move? Besides, almost all of the movie folks aren't going to appear on the shows. The Howling Commandos and Sif are the few exceptions.

The library has a copy of BvS waiting for me. Finally get to see what I have/haven't been missing.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2719 on: August 02, 2016, 11:45:14 PM »
There are rumors which have been circulating for a while that there is the possibility certain roles like Daredevil will be recast for the movies. Apparently, the "Its all connected" theme is no longer being used. Feige has apparently walked it back which was evident when it was stated that the cast of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. would possibly appear in Age of Ultron but that didn't happen. And, now the Inhumans movie is off the slate of movies in line for production. So, it seems the shows are not apart of the movie side, yet exist in the same universe but the tv and movie characters don't meet apparently.

The MCU is set in a whole different universe from the current comics Earth-616, which is the primary universe. Some elements concerning the characters are different from what is occurring in the comics.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2720 on: August 03, 2016, 05:05:30 PM »
If Feige is saying that they are no longer connected, it could be a fatal move for the Netflix department of Marvel's products. We could very well have another scenario where characters get cut from the show because they are slated for the movies and that could screw up some big storylines planned for the shows and force the writers to hash something new out last minute like it happened with DC in the past.

Personally I'm cool if guys like Daredevil never interact with the Avengers. Sure they did in the comics but these aren't the comics. Daredevil's character is set up to where he protects his homefront of Hell's Kitchen. He knows there are literal gods and super-powered people out there dealing with the bigger threats. As awesome as it would be to see Cap and DD doing a double beat down on a baddie I'm content with the idea him staying in Hell's Kitchen dealing with what he has learned best. Organized Crime.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2721 on: August 03, 2016, 06:04:14 PM »
Round about the time the Inhumans film was indefinitely delayed, a few of the of the AoS cast vented their frustrations about how connected everything was. Feige's response, which is common sense when you think about it, was that movies have a 2 year plus development time where TV shows have much shorter turn round. Essentially it's impossible for the movies to react quickly enough to TV show plot lines because they don't write episodes 3 years ahead of filming them. The flip side of that is that if say they want to include Daisy in Black Panther, then assuming AoS is still on air season 6 would have to manoeuvre Daisy to where the movie needs her to be

So essentially the TV shows can in the same continuity as movies but they can't alter what happens in the movies, but the movies can and have to be reflected in the TV shows.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2722 on: August 03, 2016, 08:34:40 PM »
So, just watched BvS. Wow. With the exception of a few nifty action sequences, this was Fant4stic level bad. Worse in many aspects, actually, or rather for things that Fant4stic didn't even bother with (setting up sequels, for instance.) Now I get what people were saying, it's not just a bad comic book movie, or a bad Batman/Superman movie, it's just bad, period. And reviews for Suicide Squad are starting to make it sound not so hot either. If only they could have quit while they were behind and started over AGAIN...at this rate I'm starting to think not even Wonder Woman or Justice League can save this franchise. But then, I didn't start seeing reviews for SS until today so if they didn't want people showing off reviews until so close to the release, that didn't speak too highly for their confidence in the product. I'm just saddened by this whole chain of events. It could not be clearer how corporate cynicism can absolutely kill all the good will a beloved series has built up over decades, in just a few short years. Heartbreaking.

Offline Inkidu

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2723 on: August 03, 2016, 09:09:45 PM »
It could not be clearer how corporate cynicism can absolutely kill all the good will a beloved series has built up over decades, in just a few short years. Heartbreaking.
What'd that be? If you're talking about the Nolan films, I'd say they're kind of insular from this DC Cinematic Universe. The problem with the DC universe is they're trying to piece it together as they go. The MCU obviously spent a lot of time in planning.

Offline mia h

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2724 on: August 04, 2016, 01:41:53 AM »
So, just watched BvS. Wow. ......
So after bitching and moaning about how bad BvS without having seen the movie, you watch it and decide it's just bad as you thought it was going to be. Well there's a shocker  ::)