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Author Topic: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies  (Read 136261 times)

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Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2275 on: May 06, 2016, 04:01:43 AM »
Honestly that is my main problem with that story arc, it really always was. I have read a lot of fiction of all kinds after a while you kind of know. And if you were above 12 years old you know, so i have always hated story arcs like that especially when they go no place.
Because the reaction is not "oh wow did they really do it" its "Oh wow i wounder what kind of bullshit they will pull out of there ass to make this sound reasonable" that dos build expectation but its not exactly the good kind
 

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2276 on: May 06, 2016, 04:06:34 AM »
Eh? I'm not sure what you are saying here, other than 'dead superheroes never stay dead, so any dead superhero story is by definition lame'. DoS was one of the first actual comic arcs to 'kill off' a major character, as opposed to one-shot issues and fake-out misleading covers. Blaming it for starting the trend of revolving door resurrections, none of which ever managed to live up to the original in terms of impact - or sales figures - is an example of Seinfeld Isn't Funny.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 04:09:16 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2277 on: May 06, 2016, 04:32:30 AM »
Its that reading it, for something to actually let something seriously bad happen to somebody the expectation has to be built up.

Let me tray and put it this way, when you are reading standard fantasy/SC FI and something bad happens to the hero you are not genuinely worried because you know that yah wait for it... wait for it... jup there he is.   

There are books that do build up a genuine expectation that bad shit can happen, The Black Company, Malazan book of the fallen, Song of Ice and Fire come to mind. These stories build up the idea that these people could all die, and some of them do.

The way comics work its very much the first one, so when a writer decides to be an edge lord and... and actually flat kills off somebody it feels out of context and story , its a surprise yes. But if we are siting at a table and i suddenly slap you its also a surprise its not an earned one or a good one. Its why i roll my eyes every time its done because its just one of two lame ass options one wait for it....  yup there he is... or its "Oh i guess it was a character they felt nobody cared about and they want to introduce a new version of" or in the case of superman they just had no fucking clue what to do with anymore 
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 04:34:38 AM by Far eyes »

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2278 on: May 06, 2016, 04:40:31 AM »
I'm assuming you never actually read Death of a Superman when it first issued. It was a big deal, because it was the first of its kind. Now, no one takes that seriously, but in 1992, the idea of killing Superman was so unexpected that it wasn't just dismissed as a gimmick by everyone. Characters like Green Lantern and Flash had already laid the foundation for the idea of one person retiring or otherwise passing on their superhero identity to a new person - it was entirely plausible at the time for this to have been something similar, killing off Kal-El permanently to tell the story of a new Superman. Clark Kent being alive was the surprise twist, rather than the inevitable ending.

And for the writers, Superman being dead was never the point. It was the plot coupon to justify what happens in a world that suddenly finds a Superman-shaped hole in itself, and how the people of that world react to something they assumed would always be there suddenly disappearing. It wasn't trying to be 'edgy' or 'gritty', and dismissing it with 20+ years of comfortable cynical hindsight is doing a tremendous disservice to the story.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 04:44:01 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2279 on: May 06, 2016, 04:52:42 AM »
See maybe thats the difference you read it at the time, me i was 20 something middle ish when i read it. I never had that feeling with it.

So what you are saying is you like it?
Thats fine, i do not.
Can that also be fine?

 

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2280 on: May 06, 2016, 07:39:32 AM »
Here's what would have made it 'work' in my opinion:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
Don't have the clue that he's coming back at the end, that was a total cop-out and really, nobody needed that to know it wasn't real anyway. Instead, hint at someone who would have the ability to fill in Superman's role while he's indisposed, i.e. Captain Marvel/Shazam, since they seem so fond of cornholing the film with as many cameos and easter eggs as they can (no Green Lantern one from what I hear, either. For shame!) That way you can do the entire JL Part 1 with no Supes and then, when even his replacement isn't enough, Part 2 is where he makes a triumphant return. With Part 1 having him conspicuously absent, some people might actually say "Gee, maybe he really is gone." And by then, we'll be hearing about Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter (once they get rid of that gangrenous limb Snyder) and maybe one more heavy hitter that would make it seem like Superman isn't exactly necessary to win the battle with Apokolips' forces. But then we get to the point where Darkseid is too much for everyone and that is where we see Kal-El charge in triumphantly and finish the job like a boss.

Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2281 on: May 06, 2016, 08:24:21 AM »
I think ultimately it was still a poor choice of script for the first installment they needed something much more character building, that naturally suggests the director needs to have a vague idea what a character looks like besides just putting them in poses 

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2282 on: May 06, 2016, 01:05:07 PM »
They did do a movie based on one of the characters who appeared to fill the void when Superman died. They did a Steel movie with Shaq as Steel.

The thing with what DC is doing with the movies and the tv shows is trying to mash up a bunch of story arcs, and for the most part it isn't working. Superman won't be dead long since Henry Cavill is in Justice League. Now, in the tv show Oliver Queen can do
Season 4, Don't read if haven't seen latest episode
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Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2283 on: May 06, 2016, 05:48:33 PM »
So i managed to catch Civil War Captain America (No spoilers) but in some respect this feels like Marvel inadvertently just doing one of these to BvS


So no spoilers but the movie was awesome, i would put it still behind the first Avengers but not by much.
For some reason we did end up having 3 brakes during the showing i think something was up with the tech in the cinema since normally they do not do brakes

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2284 on: May 06, 2016, 09:51:40 PM »
Or maybe it's just so epic you need a few breathers to cope with its awesomeness. LOL.

Waiting for news about Snyder being kicked to the curb before production on Justice League gets too far. I'm already convinced it's way too late to salvage the DCEU but maybe I'll at least enjoy some pieces of it.

Offline SapphireStar

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2285 on: May 06, 2016, 10:02:23 PM »
DC/Warner Bros. would have been smart to put Christopher Nolan in overall charge of overseeing the production of the new slate of movies instead of Synder. Nolan had his flaws, but at least his movies were pretty good with both action and storytelling. But, it looks like Synder is not going anywhere. Nor, does it appear that he will make any changes to his approach to the movies.

This coming Tuesday, Deadpool comes out on DVD  ;D

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2286 on: May 06, 2016, 11:08:48 PM »
DC/Warner Bros. would have been smart to put Christopher Nolan in overall charge of overseeing the production of the new slate of movies instead of Synder. Nolan had his flaws, but at least his movies were pretty good with both action and storytelling. But, it looks like Synder is not going anywhere. Nor, does it appear that he will make any changes to his approach to the movies.

This coming Tuesday, Deadpool comes out on DVD  ;D

So the mental castration over at WB continues. Well, like I said, I've already written it off as a lost cause. So fucking sad...but at least I've completed my DC Animated Universe DVD collection recently. Except Static Shock, I can't seem to find any of its seasons on DVD. Or maybe they were never released?

And shit yeah, totally buying Deadpool for $3 off on its first day on sale. Gonna watch that shit 3 times that day.

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Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2287 on: May 06, 2016, 11:24:22 PM »
The Killing Joke will be out in a month or so.

I don't think they ever released Static Shock, or even Zeta Project on dvd.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2288 on: May 07, 2016, 07:29:26 AM »
They never released Static Shock? That's a shame it was a good show to watch when I was a kid. Sure it wasn't Justice League or Batman but I won't lie when I say it was still a great show.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2289 on: May 07, 2016, 08:29:19 AM »
They never released Static Shock? That's a shame it was a good show to watch when I was a kid. Sure it wasn't Justice League or Batman but I won't lie when I say it was still a great show.

The DCAU was almost without exception the best integrted TV universe ever released. The Zeta Project is technically part of that continuity and that was just kind of 'meh' but everything else was awesome. Though I did love the X-Men and Spider-Man cartoons on Fox and those were also connected. Not sure if things like the Hulk or Fantastic Four were also connected, or Iron Man even though they had very similar animation and were released around the same time.

Offline CaptainNexus616

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2290 on: May 08, 2016, 05:59:49 AM »
Oh wow I had almost completely forgotten about this.



I remember seeing that movie years ago right before I saw the First Avenger.

It is interesting to note how DC held the crown back then when it came to movies while Marvel struggled. Feels like Marvel learned from their mistakes over the years.

Offline Zekromnomnom

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2291 on: May 08, 2016, 07:22:34 AM »
You know it is something i have been wondering, how would marvel handle Batman v superman and i can only imagine it would be more like that scene from the avengers when they are all initially fighting each other and then there is that moment of "oh maybe we should not do this before somebody dies" because you know, its written by people who do not say dumb fucking shit like... what was that dumb shit snider said why he had superman kill Zod so he understood it was bad to kill...   
I mean even in the first movie there continues to be a lot of tension, they do not get along but they manage to work together and its actually what makes the most fun little moments.

I know you posted this a while ago, but I actually took that interpretation and me being just way too optimistic, I thought they would make something out of this. Like I know a lot of people were like "Superman killing someone is so fucking dumb" and I kind of looked at it at the time as kind of being an origin story kind of thing. Zod and the other kryptonians were the first time he had to deal with anything serious, before that he was just pulling a bus from a river and stopping and oil rig thing from falling on a helicopter. He didn't bother to practice with his abilities because his dumb ass dad was like "No, Clark, don't very fucking easily come save me from this tornado, people can't see your powers."

So I was like "Okay, he killed Zod, but he's inexperienced with his abilities and lacked a lot of options. Give me that grain of salt and lets hope the next movie builds on that experience."

Then just...fucking nope. They leave no time to have him dwell on having killed the last survivors of his destroyed homeworld, and he seems pretty over it anyway. He's too busy taking his journalism career seriously (ha) and dating. He never even took the time to learn to take off without breaking the fucking sound barrier, let alone practice ways to utilize his abilities non-lethally. That could have been done between movies, but nope. Snyder doesn't wanna do that I guess. Even though in the comics, we suspend our disbelief that he would have been able to zoom over to the warlord guy that had Louis and come to a controlled stop to disarm him or use his heat vision with enough precision to burn his hand or something. Hell, they could have even had a short slow motion sequence and shown him twisting in midair so his body broke through the wall instead of the normal human he just tackled at the speed of sound. But I imagine they didn't think movie goers would find it believable.

Except for ANY of them that have read a few comics. Which I would say you probably only need to read about four to have read more than Snyder.

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2292 on: May 08, 2016, 07:54:05 AM »

I remember seeing that movie years ago right before I saw the First Avenger.

It is interesting to note how DC held the crown back then when it came to movies while Marvel struggled. Feels like Marvel learned from their mistakes over the years.

But that was made by a completely different studio, as Marvel hadn't yet negotiated back the rights for Cap and a few other names from that same studio at the time. I think they also did a CinemaSins version of it, which would be a little better than an Honest Trailer since it would get way more in-depth with how crappy the movie actually is.

I know you posted this a while ago, but I actually took that interpretation and me being just way too optimistic, I thought they would make something out of this. Like I know a lot of people were like "Superman killing someone is so fucking dumb" and I kind of looked at it at the time as kind of being an origin story kind of thing. Zod and the other kryptonians were the first time he had to deal with anything serious, before that he was just pulling a bus from a river and stopping and oil rig thing from falling on a helicopter. He didn't bother to practice with his abilities because his dumb ass dad was like "No, Clark, don't very fucking easily come save me from this tornado, people can't see your powers."

So I was like "Okay, he killed Zod, but he's inexperienced with his abilities and lacked a lot of options. Give me that grain of salt and lets hope the next movie builds on that experience."

Then just...fucking nope. They leave no time to have him dwell on having killed the last survivors of his destroyed homeworld, and he seems pretty over it anyway. He's too busy taking his journalism career seriously (ha) and dating. He never even took the time to learn to take off without breaking the fucking sound barrier, let alone practice ways to utilize his abilities non-lethally. That could have been done between movies, but nope. Snyder doesn't wanna do that I guess. Even though in the comics, we suspend our disbelief that he would have been able to zoom over to the warlord guy that had Louis and come to a controlled stop to disarm him or use his heat vision with enough precision to burn his hand or something. Hell, they could have even had a short slow motion sequence and shown him twisting in midair so his body broke through the wall instead of the normal human he just tackled at the speed of sound. But I imagine they didn't think movie goers would find it believable.

Except for ANY of them that have read a few comics. Which I would say you probably only need to read about four to have read more than Snyder.

I was just thinking about all this when I woke up this morning. Here's kind of how I summed up the whole thing:

With these last two (or 3, if you want to count Green Lantern) DC films, you can taste the greed and cynicism behind them. It leaves an awful taste in our mouths and they just don't give a good goddamn. At least with Marvel, they're no different in that the underlying motive is to make money but they bother to hire people who, for the most part, are intimately familiar with the material and passionate about the project for that reason. That adds some nice flavor to dull what would otherwise do to our heroes what DC is doing to them.

Now, that's not always the case, of course. Look at Iron Man 3, that was (for me at least) the Marvel version of a DCEU dud, completely veering away from what the expected quality should have been like because the director didn't know jack about the fucking source material and didn't care.

Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2293 on: May 08, 2016, 08:24:26 AM »
I did not hate Iron man 3 but it did feel like ...   
If you are not comfortable using Mandarin because they were to self aware of his corny and well the other parts of the characters nature, they really they should have just found another actual villain and just left the Mandarin untouched. As it was i dont think its a bad movie but its one thats flawed, oddly paced and kind of stumbles along at times. Now i still find it a fun watch but it might be on the bottom of the theoretical top X list of marvel movies. I found Thor more enjoyable and that one had some flaws to

 

Offline Zekromnomnom

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2294 on: May 08, 2016, 08:41:47 AM »
I did not hate Iron man 3 but it did feel like ...   
If you are not comfortable using Mandarin because they were to self aware of his corny and well the other parts of the characters nature, they really they should have just found another actual villain and just left the Mandarin untouched. As it was i dont think its a bad movie but its one thats flawed, oddly paced and kind of stumbles along at times. Now i still find it a fun watch but it might be on the bottom of the theoretical top X list of marvel movies. I found Thor more enjoyable and that one had some flaws to

 

I just love how they didn't learn anything from it, apparently. Like in Doctor Strange having Tilda Swinton be the Ancient One. If they are just going to ignore how bad an idea Ben Kingsley was, I say they should have gone all out with Doctor Strange. Throw in the Sorcerer Supreme's Tibetan manservant Wong from the comics. And he could be played by Rowan fucking Atkinson :D

Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2295 on: May 08, 2016, 09:18:47 AM »
Well i will see how Doctor Strange plays it i do not actually have a problem with actors playing characters, its why i tend to roll my eyes and walk on when i hear to to much crying and gnashing of teeth about the race or gender of actors if the movie is actually good and the actor dos a good job it dos not matter to me, if the movie is bad it was probably not because of that one thing. 

Be that Phil LaMarr as Heimdall or Scarlett Johansson white Kusanagi

Offline Zekromnomnom

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2296 on: May 08, 2016, 09:40:59 AM »
I think representation is important to some extent. Like I think it would be really dumb to like make Cyborg or War Machine white cause PR nitghtmare, but on the other hand I think some people who cry for representation aren't thinking it through if they suggested making Superman black or Iron Man Hawaiin and think it's a real possibility. Because for whoever made those business decisions, it would likely be career suicide. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the world we live in. I don't know ANYONE who actually likes the Fantastic Four, but I know five different people who hate them and still were pissed they cast a black Human Torch. I figure if it's a smallish or non-main character part, why not just leave the person their original race?

I'm just not particularly interested in Doctor Strange because I think Benificient Constabulary and his show Sherlock are kind of overrated. Mostly for a dumb reason
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
three 90 minute episodes every like two years, what the FUCK?

Also, isn't Idris Elba Heimdall? That one I like because I like him and I heard a bunch of Aryan Brotherhood types were super pissed about it. I'm not super into ScarJo for Kusanagi because...well, for one, her name is still Kusanagi and that makes me think of white people who are just...annoyingly into Japanese shit. And the other is that GitS deals a lot with Japanese culture even though the movie may not and while part of me thinks it could be good, the other part is like "Did they even goddamn look for a Japanese actress?"

Offline MathimTopic starter

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2297 on: May 08, 2016, 10:10:35 AM »
I think representation is important to some extent. Like I think it would be really dumb to like make Cyborg or War Machine white cause PR nitghtmare, but on the other hand I think some people who cry for representation aren't thinking it through if they suggested making Superman black or Iron Man Hawaiin and think it's a real possibility. Because for whoever made those business decisions, it would likely be career suicide. I'm not saying it's right, it's just the world we live in. I don't know ANYONE who actually likes the Fantastic Four, but I know five different people who hate them and still were pissed they cast a black Human Torch. I figure if it's a smallish or non-main character part, why not just leave the person their original race?

I'm just not particularly interested in Doctor Strange because I think Benificient Constabulary and his show Sherlock are kind of overrated. Mostly for a dumb reason
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
three 90 minute episodes every like two years, what the FUCK?

Also, isn't Idris Elba Heimdall? That one I like because I like him and I heard a bunch of Aryan Brotherhood types were super pissed about it. I'm not super into ScarJo for Kusanagi because...well, for one, her name is still Kusanagi and that makes me think of white people who are just...annoyingly into Japanese shit. And the other is that GitS deals a lot with Japanese culture even though the movie may not and while part of me thinks it could be good, the other part is like "Did they even goddamn look for a Japanese actress?"

For me, accuracy to the comics is paramount, no preference for race in any direction. I'm just as miffed about Baron Mordo being black as I am about the Ancient One being white. Neither choice makes the slightest bit of sense, which is even worse than just making a black Human Torch. At least with that one, there's no logical impediment. But with the Ancient One being in Tibet, and Mordo supposedly coming from European nobility...what the fucking fuck?

Offline Far eyes

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2298 on: May 08, 2016, 11:01:37 AM »
three 90 minute episodes every like two years, what the FUCK?

BBC standard, he was also kind of bussy. No idea i like the spin they did on Sherlock

Quote
her name is still Kusanagi and that makes me think of white people who are just...annoyingly into Japanese shit.

And Heimdall is a Norse god, its a fictional universe i might feel different about it if it was a real life character who actually existed but in a sense i would still rather have a good movie then people playing match color tone the movie. Gods of Egypt was a bad movie, it was bad for a lot of reasons, but to the people who went on about "should have hired Egyptian actors" i always say the same thing name me 5, i can probably do it after some furious googling but that would not have made the movie not suck.

Hmm it is Idris Elba ... why the heck did ...  i have no idea, i think i was doing something ells to and my brain just decided derp, oh you know what he dos a lot of voice work for animated i think i just took his name from there.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 11:19:34 AM by Far eyes »

Offline Zekromnomnom

Re: The Gauntlet Has Been Thrown: The Future of Superhero Movies
« Reply #2299 on: May 08, 2016, 11:39:09 AM »
I guess I didn't realize that was something common for BBC.

And I guess I hadn't really thought about it, but now that you mention it, it might not just be that they didn't get a Japanese person, but that it is ScarJo. *shrug*