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Author Topic: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation  (Read 6456 times)

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Offline Caehlim

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #75 on: November 05, 2014, 11:57:57 PM »
Could always call yourself a 'humanist':

I do think of myself as a humanist as well.

I just worry about some of these terms like feminist becoming divided, rather than including diversity. I don't want feminism to be seen as purely a radical extremist philosophy but if the moderates leave a group, then it just makes it easier to parody them and whatever new group(s) they form will still be tainted with the same brush but lack a lot of the momentum that the movement has built up. It's worth people standing up and saying "I'm feminist", even if you're not exactly like every other feminist out there. Maybe you'll add something new and unique to feminism or at least encourage the idea that women's issues are important.

I kinda feel the same way about MRA, but... I have to pick my battles, and that one looks really really hard. I'm doing what I can to stand up for responsible treatment of men's issues and present it in a more positive and moderate light, but... there is just such a bad reputation and so many bigots amongst the groups. It's a far tougher battle then feminism which really only has a few extremists (to my perception) who make it a difficult group to support.

Offline Slywyn

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2014, 12:09:19 AM »
A really good response to "Why call it feminism"

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Offline Braioch

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2014, 01:01:15 AM »
There are perhaps....a few things about feminism as a movement and their groups that have been left out and I gathered a few things together so you might understand why people stand so firmly against it.

There was some serious shadiness about the suffragettes that doesn't get mentioned.

Like when they worked against male domestic abuse victims at the hands of female abusers being recognized. Which is something that people try to address sometimes, but that tends to end badly. Which is sad, since there are many places that talk about it.

Or heck when men who were accused of rape weren't even allowed anonymity due to campaigning from them.

Or sidelined stimulus funding for hard hit jobs simply because the hardest hit jobs had mostly males working?

Or still perpetuating the wage gap that's been refuted several different times.

The continued perpetuation of the rape (of which the occurred of that crime is going down) myth that continues to be called into question. Even the 'rape culture' that they talk about has been criticized by RAINN

There was the attack of one of their own too

Or the...this stuff. Which that kind of mentality meant that this stuff gets skated over quite well.

? ? ? ? ? ?

Plus the stuff that gets actively ignored

Finally, some collected quotes from known feminist leaders to really make you feel warm and fuzzy.

So...when misrepresentation of feminism is touted, I point in the direction of these things of which these are only a few that I took together to bunch together for you. If feminism is having anything done to it, it's been run and dictated by too many people with false ideas and radical notions. This current third wave is running on a principle of spouting lies and exaggerations to get what they want and they're actually succeeding.

Well, if you think it's being misrepresented, just remember that those people might be paying attention to these things instead.

(Which as I pointed out in the thread about Anita's videos, if moderate feminists don't want to be bundled up with people who do these awful things under the same banner, then it's time to collectively stand together and refuse to let your banner be stolen. Otherwise you will continue to be held to the same standard.)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 01:14:52 AM by Braioch »

Offline Valthazar

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2014, 01:19:58 AM »
? ? ? ? ? ?

I like how they had to cite a University of Louisville professor to reach the conclusion that, "men scatter urine not so much during the actual urination as during the 'shaking off' that follows."  :P

Offline Braioch

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2014, 01:29:00 AM »
Gotta add that air of professionalism ::)

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2014, 01:50:22 AM »
Take a second look at the OP and then at what you posted, Braioch. Specifically where I mentioned the Anglo-centric racism of First and Second Wave Feminism.

Then take a look at the dates of many of your entries, like the working against male abuse shelters, and how that falls, specifically, against the Radical Feminists of the Second Wave, another item I spoke about.

Much of the rest of what you've got that doesn't fall under the auspices of the things already mentioned is examples of twisting context or removing it altogether. Let's touch on the Five Rights Feminists don't want men to have.

Number 1: Control over when women have children.
... really? That's... really. That's what they opened the article with? That men should determine when women carry another being inside of their body for almost a year and deal with the pains attendant to that activity? Sure... Let's talk about that one.

Artificial Uteruses. Something feminists have been pushing for for a long time, right alongside Uterine Transplant techniques. Why? Initially so that trans women like myself can bear children of our own (Thanks to the skin-cell technique, something lauded by feminists as an amazing and positive breakthrough). Though say, couldn't a Man take some of his skin cells, turn them into Ovum, and then use an artificial uterus to have a child without anyone interfering with his reproductive rights?

I mean... That's one way to look at it. But the website itself is advocating for forcing women to carry men's children whether they want to carry them or not and that is just a fucked up situation. Or is it arguing that men should be the ones who decide to terminate a pregnancy? I can't imagine that's what it's about since that portion is preceded by complaints about women having the birth control pill.

But then, guys have a huge variety of condoms to choose from at every gas station, bathroom, and supermarket in the States while women have to go get a prescription for their BC, so that can't be it... right?

Number 2: The right to have rape taken seriously.
Mmmhmm... right. That's... hmm. Well there's Steubenville and every other situation we've seen in the news where someone, or a group of someones, rapes a woman and she's harassed, attacked, denied, and generally treated like shit. Sometimes disowned by her family, often mistreated by cops, doctors, lawyers, and more. And invariably questioned on how she got herself raped... but let's touch on the whole male-rape issue since that's what this is about.

Toxic masculinity makes a joke of male rape. Feminists fight against toxic masculinity. That includes helping men who have been raped get taken seriously. Of course this doesn't include situations where "But men get raped, too!" is thrown about to try and derail and recenter a discussion of rape of women and the social implications around it...

Number 3: The Right to have Mental Issues taken seriously.
This one is patently false. This is another aspect of toxic masculinity (No crying. Bottle it up. Never talk about your emotions.) that feminists have been fighting for decades. How bad is number 4 going to be, exactly?

Number 4: The right to NOT be assumed natural caregivers
Wh.. wait what? Okay. Hang on. I had to reread it. Alright so. It posits that  feminists are against the idea that men can take care of their (the feminist's) children and that feminist organizations are against automatic joint custody and parenting... Well... Both of those are surely to some degree true but also ignore the wider context. Yes. Most feminists don't hire a male babysitter, I imagine (I also imagine it's hard to get an accurate estimate on how many do or don't). And yes, feminists are against automatic joint custody of children.

The first part is because while feminists WANT a society where men can be assumed to be equal caregivers to children we do not live in a society that supports that conclusion, currently. And thanks to the toxic masculinity behind the previous two points it leaves very few men in the child care industry. That's less a shunning of dude and more of a hiring "Person who is available for the job". Of course if you follow the link you'll find what the article is ACTUALLY talking about is hiring mexicans to take care of their children. Because racism. Certainly not because of economic factors and a corrupt capitalist society, nope!

The second part. Yes. Automatic Joint Custody of children is a TERRIBLE idea. You have to understand that the whole "Bias against men in court" thing is a myth and has been forever. The bias against men when it comes to custody of children happens BEFORE court. 70% of divorcing couples decide to give full custody of the child to the mother because of social expectations of a mother's superiority to care for the children. Of the remaining 30% of divorce cases that go to court with custody on the line men get either full or joint custody 85% of the time, even in case of abusive parenting and domestic violence.

The fact is that even in a society where parents are considered equally capable of taking care of their kids rather than the assumption that women are the better caretaker by default there are going to be a wide variety of situations where one person's job or life requires more investment of time and energy than the other person's does, and joint custody in those cases will not be the right answer for the child's wellbeing. Defaulting to joint custody is a bad idea, and cases should be handled on the merits and tribulations of the individuals involved. Not some external mandate.

Number 5: Genital Mutilation.
Okay. Wow. Yeah. No. First things first: Circumcision is not NEARLY the same as vaginal mutilation in intent, method, or result. These two things are not comparable.

That is -why- feminists don't talk about it as an equivalent idea. Because it isn't. That's like saying a stab wound is exactly as bad as twelve stab wounds. Don't compare the two, you only undermine your position by doing so.

That said: Circumcision is something that should probably be held off on until the child is old enough to choose for themself.

I'm noticing a pattern in the links you've provided, though. Basically all of them are opinion pieces and blog posts written by diehard anti-feminists, more than a few of whom delve into outright misogyny in their attacks of the feminist movement.

One you listed in particular caught my eye, though: http://social.dol.gov/blog/myth-busting-the-pay-gap/ In which the Department of Labor busts the myths of the pay gap based on gender... including the myth that it doesn't exist, doesn't affect women in specialized fields, that it exists because women take more flexible hours to take time off for kids, and that the gap will go away on it's own... Essentially it states, flatly, that the pay gap is real and even if it may be inflated by some metrics it's not going away and it affects women of all social strata.

I think I'll just leave most of the other points, though, with all their value or lack thereof determined by other readers. I do encourage everyone to read through the links, though. They do tell interesting stories.

As far as the pissing story goes... I really don't know what to make of it. Though it -should- be noted, again, that Sweden's popular feminists are Second Wave Radfems. Which, again, touches on items already covered as to why feminism itself is represented so poorly in the media.

Offline Caehlim

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2014, 02:16:17 AM »
Even the 'rape culture' that they talk about has been criticized by RAINN

This is a really interesting document, thankyou for sharing it. I've been reading through it and it's very interesting seeing the recommendations of a group with such experience on the issue.

Quote
? ? ? ? ? ?

Body shaming at it's "finest". That's just a really ugly policy.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #82 on: November 06, 2014, 02:31:38 AM »
Yeah.. I should step in on that one... the "Criticism" of rape culture is a little note about how it's "Blamed" for rape when rape is a conscious decision of a person.

Which, y'know, is great, so long as you assume that person lived within a bubble safe and secure from hearing, seeing, or interacting with how our society handles issues of rape.

People don't make conscious decisions apropos of nothing. There are factors that lead to decisions. Risks and Rewards are weighed against each other, cultural and personal experiences are measured, and one's moral compass (largely dictated by cultural norms) are all a part of what leads to the decision. Including the decision to rape someone.

Rape culture is not "To Blame" for rapes. But it is a factor in people's decision to commit rape, and as such it should be countered whenever possible.

Offline Braioch

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #83 on: November 06, 2014, 02:38:35 AM »
Take a second look at the OP and then at what you posted, Braioch. Specifically where I mentioned the Anglo-centric racism of First and Second Wave Feminism.

Then take a look at the dates of many of your entries, like the working against male abuse shelters, and how that falls, specifically, against the Radical Feminists of the Second Wave, another item I spoke about.

The list is simply compiling together things that show that feminism does not always have its 'pretty' face and that's exactly why there are people who have issues with it, nothing more, nothing less.

Much of the rest of what you've got that doesn't fall under the auspices of the things already mentioned is examples of twisting context or removing it altogether. Let's touch on the Five Rights Feminists don't want men to have.

Quote
Number 1: Control over when women have children.
... really? That's... really. That's what they opened the article with? That men should determine when women carry another being inside of their body for almost a year and deal with the pains attendant to that activity? Sure... Let's talk about that one.

Artificial Uteruses. Something feminists have been pushing for for a long time, right alongside Uterine Transplant techniques. Why? Initially so that trans women like myself can bear children of our own (Thanks to the skin-cell technique, something lauded by feminists as an amazing and positive breakthrough). Though say, couldn't a Man take some of his skin cells, turn them into Ovum, and then use an artificial uterus to have a child without anyone interfering with his reproductive rights?

I mean... That's one way to look at it. But the website itself is advocating for forcing women to carry men's children whether they want to carry them or not and that is just a fucked up situation. Or is it arguing that men should be the ones who decide to terminate a pregnancy? I can't imagine that's what it's about since that portion is preceded by complaints about women having the birth control pill.

But then, guys have a huge variety of condoms to choose from at every gas station, bathroom, and supermarket in the States while women have to go get a prescription for their BC, so that can't be it... right?

Did you perchance read that bit? Click the provided links in that section?

It was discussing how women can opt out of parenthood by rights of many options, but men do not have that ability. Women can choose that they do not want to be parents, they don't have to take on responsibility for raising the child or being financially obligated. Men lack that choice, men whom can even be saddled with another man's child, cannot opt out in anyway if he wants too.

It never mentioned...anything about abortions or...any of that...

Quote
Number 2: The right to have rape taken seriously.
Mmmhmm... right. That's... hmm. Well there's Steubenville and every other situation we've seen in the news where someone, or a group of someones, rapes a woman and she's harassed, attacked, denied, and generally treated like shit. Sometimes disowned by her family, often mistreated by cops, doctors, lawyers, and more. And invariably questioned on how she got herself raped... but let's touch on the whole male-rape issue since that's what this is about.

Toxic masculinity makes a joke of male rape. Feminists fight against toxic masculinity. That includes helping men who have been raped get taken seriously. Of course this doesn't include situations where "But men get raped, too!" is thrown about to try and derail and recenter a discussion of rape of women and the social implications around it...

Again, did you read and click?

It was about how rape upon women is taken very seriously while the male victims are lost, ignored, or even berated.

Quote
Number 3: The Right to have Mental Issues taken seriously.
This one is patently false. This is another aspect of toxic masculinity (No crying. Bottle it up. Never talk about your emotions.) that feminists have been fighting for decades. How bad is number 4 going to be, exactly?

...it even addresses the 'toxic masculinity.'

Quote
Number 4: The right to NOT be assumed natural caregivers
Wh.. wait what? Okay. Hang on. I had to reread it. Alright so. It posits that  feminists are against the idea that men can take care of their (the feminist's) children and that feminist organizations are against automatic joint custody and parenting... Well... Both of those are surely to some degree true but also ignore the wider context. Yes. Most feminists don't hire a male babysitter, I imagine (I also imagine it's hard to get an accurate estimate on how many do or don't). And yes, feminists are against automatic joint custody of children.

The first part is because while feminists WANT a society where men can be assumed to be equal caregivers to children we do not live in a society that supports that conclusion, currently. And thanks to the toxic masculinity behind the previous two points it leaves very few men in the child care industry. That's less a shunning of dude and more of a hiring "Person who is available for the job". Of course if you follow the link you'll find what the article is ACTUALLY talking about is hiring mexicans to take care of their children. Because racism. Certainly not because of economic factors and a corrupt capitalist society, nope!

How...how do you say "Yes. Most feminists don't hire a male babysitter, I imagine" and then turn around and claim they want a society where men are assumed as equal caregivers?

???


The second part. Yes. Automatic Joint Custody of children is a TERRIBLE idea. You have to understand that the whole "Bias against men in court" thing is a myth and has been forever. The bias against men when it comes to custody of children happens BEFORE court. 70% of divorcing couples decide to give full custody of the child to the mother because of social expectations of a mother's superiority to care for the children. Of the remaining 30% of divorce cases that go to court with custody on the line men get either full or joint custody 85% of the time, even in case of abusive parenting and domestic violence.

The fact is that even in a society where parents are considered equally capable of taking care of their kids rather than the assumption that women are the better caretaker by default there are going to be a wide variety of situations where one person's job or life requires more investment of time and energy than the other person's does, and joint custody in those cases will not be the right answer for the child's wellbeing. Defaulting to joint custody is a bad idea, and cases should be handled on the merits and tribulations of the individuals involved. Not some external mandate.

Quote
Number 5: Genital Mutilation.
Okay. Wow. Yeah. No. First things first: Circumcision is not NEARLY the same as vaginal mutilation in intent, method, or result. These two things are not comparable.

That is -why- feminists don't talk about it as an equivalent idea. Because it isn't. That's like saying a stab wound is exactly as bad as twelve stab wounds. Don't compare the two, you only undermine your position by doing so.

That said: Circumcision is something that should probably be held off on until the child is old enough to choose for themself.

You will notice it never once says they're similar or one is more important than the other but simply that ONE is being ignored or even mocked.

Quote
I'm noticing a pattern in the links you've provided, though. Basically all of them are opinion pieces and blog posts written by diehard anti-feminists, more than a few of whom delve into outright misogyny in their attacks of the feminist movement.

Yeah, except...they're not. Many of them are reports, studies or news articles.
So.

Quote
One you listed in particular caught my eye, though: http://social.dol.gov/blog/myth-busting-the-pay-gap/ In which the Department of Labor busts the myths of the pay gap based on gender... including the myth that it doesn't exist, doesn't affect women in specialized fields, that it exists because women take more flexible hours to take time off for kids, and that the gap will go away on it's own... Essentially it states, flatly, that the pay gap is real and even if it may be inflated by some metrics it's not going away and it affects women of all social strata.

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
http://www.payscale.com/career-news/2009/12/do-men-or-women-choose-majors-to-maximize-income
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/the-gender-pay-gap-is-a-complete-myth/
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/22/opinion/22Sommers.html?_r=1&hp

We have conflicted on that area it seems, so I'll have to look into it more.

Quote
I think I'll just leave most of the other points, though, with all their value or lack thereof determined by other readers. I do encourage everyone to read through the links, though. They do tell interesting stories.

This is incredibly condescending, please refrain from that.

Quote
As far as the pissing story goes... I really don't know what to make of it. Though it -should- be noted, again, that Sweden's popular feminists are Second Wave Radfems. Which, again, touches on items already covered as to why feminism itself is represented so poorly in the media.

That one was a bit of humor on my part

Yeah.. I should step in on that one... the "Criticism" of rape culture is a little note about how it's "Blamed" for rape when rape is a conscious decision of a person.

Which, y'know, is great, so long as you assume that person lived within a bubble safe and secure from hearing, seeing, or interacting with how our society handles issues of rape.

People don't make conscious decisions apropos of nothing. There are factors that lead to decisions. Risks and Rewards are weighed against each other, cultural and personal experiences are measured, and one's moral compass (largely dictated by cultural norms) are all a part of what leads to the decision. Including the decision to rape someone.

Rape culture is not "To Blame" for rapes. But it is a factor in people's decision to commit rape, and as such it should be countered whenever possible.

You accused me of removing things from context and you are doing that here. You are completely disregarding that rape statistics have covered that men are almost as likely as women to be raped, that the current rape statistics that are flouted about were based off a very poorly done and criticized study. The same study that was the beginning of this 'rape culture' that keeps getting passed around.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #84 on: November 06, 2014, 03:11:23 AM »
I did not intend to be condescending at all and I apologize for coming across that way.

As far as men and women being raped nearly equally: That is not at all the point of a discussion of rape culture.

Rape Culture, as a concept, is the idea that our society makes light, deflects responsibility, or even condones rape in a variety of situations. Whether we're giggling at a small guy getting locked in a big prison cell with "Bubba" or having female characters in TV shows and movies falsely cry rape as a "Common thing" our society has a lot of shitty attitudes about what rape is and how to handle it. From under-education or flat misinformation we communicate that rape only happens between a violent aggressor and a helpless victim and that all other situations of unwanted sex are just "Miscommunications" typically instigated by the victim.

That's what rape culture is about in feminist discussions. When talking about it, as relates to women, feminists talk about how society treats female rape victims. And that's it. Because that's what the discussion is about. How it impacts male victims is not a part of -that- discussion about female victims. It's a separate discussion that definitely needs to happen and DOES get talked about.

There is nothing in discussion of Rape Culture that mandates it only applies to women or only women get raped or whatever other argument is brought forward. That is a derailment.

As to the five things: Maybe it's something I'm reading into the text, maybe it's just something other people gloss over without looking at more deeply. I stand by my responses to how feminism interacts with those topics.

I'm not going to be discussing this matter any further for a while. I am beginning to get frustrated at trying to get across concepts and ideas and I think it has begun to affect my writing.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #85 on: November 06, 2014, 09:01:15 AM »
Orange Marmalade: The problem with your equivalence is that you'll be hard-pressed to find pillars of the feminist community that turn up on SPLC's hate-group watch. You won't see feminists trying to run cams that undermine real charities doing good work. Or calling the victims of a child rapist "whores". Or speaking out for domestic violence and rape. The distortion of feminism comes from its critics. The "distortion" of the MRA movement comes from its core.



Braioch, I'm really only going to touch on one of your links: The alleged "quotes from feminist leaders". Most of those names I, for one, don't recognize in a feminist context. Some of the ones I do - Solanas and Dworkin - are not only not leaders, but not taken seriously by mainstream third-wave feminism. Other quotes on that list... um... actually aren't objectionable. And do the Canadian panel on violence against women, or an allegedly-popular piece of graffiti, really count as feminist leaders?

Offline Shjade

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #86 on: November 06, 2014, 11:01:22 AM »
Again, did you read and click?

It was about how rape upon women is taken very seriously while the male victims are lost, ignored, or even berated.
I don't have time for the rest right now, but on this point: did you read her response? It was about how raped women are ALSO often lost, ignored, even berated.

That's typically the response to rape, regardless of the victim, by a lot of people.

Offline Kathadon

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #87 on: November 06, 2014, 12:14:43 PM »
As this subject has quickly becoming a claim and counterclaim fest of talking past one another as online Feminist discussions usually do, I will try and redirect the conversation. If both Feminists and MRA's claim to have the same basic goal of equality between the sexs why is it there is not more dialogue between the two groups? I have heard as a rebuttal that the NAACP and the KKK want the same thing as well, but this is a false equivalence. So why has no attempt been made by moderate Feminists and moderate MRA's (which I am sure exist) to come together in common cause for well.....anything?

I have also noticed the phrase toxic masculinity thrown about a bit. While gender theory is established much of the scientific research on whether culture or biology being the dominant influence on a person's gender identity is still in its infancy. Could we all agree on that? So phrases like toxic masculinity have become dog whistles to refute traditional gender roles for both men, women, and a cause of considerable pain for transgender. Correct? We do not on average say that a woman in a traditional caregiver role is shackled to her family, or enslaved to her children for instance. The choice of language is important. You can agree or disagree that traditional roles are harmful or not, but this phrase strikes me as no better than calling black culture thuggish in America. It shows a clear bias on the part of the speaker or writer.


OT: And the Southern Poverty Law Center has become a joke. They label as hate groups anyone that disagrees with  progressive aims with a focus on the far right. They tend to ignore the far left as well.  While it is their right to dislike or disagree with groups campaigning to end gay marriage or advocating for the deportation of illegal immigrants in California, a hate group has a very clear legal definition. The SPLC has used their list as a tool to shame, character assassinate, and delegitimize folks just for being a member in a conservative church or movement. Which is why the FBI dropped them as a partner in their hate watch campaigns. You do not get to dilute the true nature of a hate crime by applying that label to wide swaths of the American public solely on a political slant because they advocate differently than you. The SPLC are treading a fine line of having, by their own definition, to label themselves as a hate group.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #88 on: November 06, 2014, 12:36:04 PM »
Take a look at the last link I posted. It's very little but direct quotes from Paul Elam, the man behind A Voice For Men and one of the central pillars of the MRA community. It also answers your first and last points. Feminists aren't interested in talking with self-identified MRAs because, by calling yourself an MRA, you identify with a community that centers around that. And are you really going to tell me there's no hatred there? That a group that grandstands in such a manner doesn't have hatred as a core value?

Offline Caehlim

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #89 on: November 06, 2014, 12:43:41 PM »
So phrases like toxic masculinity have become dog whistles to refute traditional gender roles for both men, women, and a cause of considerable pain for transgender.

Just for the record, this issue has already been somewhat discussed over in the companion thread on Men's Liberation: https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=217006.msg10663464#msg10663464

Offline Kathadon

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2014, 01:17:02 PM »
Take a look at the last link I posted. It's very little but direct quotes from Paul Elam, the man behind A Voice For Men and one of the central pillars of the MRA community. It also answers your first and last points. Feminists aren't interested in talking with self-identified MRAs because, by calling yourself an MRA, you identify with a community that centers around that. And are you really going to tell me there's no hatred there? That a group that grandstands in such a manner doesn't have hatred as a core value?

Forgive me if I do not take We Hunt the Mammoth as an unbiased or credible source for anything in these types of debates. I see alot of out of context quotes some that are vile. Does it mean there are no MRA moderates? Probably not.

If there are goals that align why has no one tried to bridge the gap between the two sides? Fear, demonization, and hatred is the only reason I can see.

Just for the record, this issue has already been somewhat discussed over in the companion thread on Men's Liberation: https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=217006.msg10663464#msg10663464

And thank you for that. I missed that thread.

Offline Oniya

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2014, 01:21:44 PM »
I think it's more that the people that are concerned with the goals that align don't choose to identify with a group that is known for being aggressively anti-the-other-side.  Like it or not, the acronym of 'MRA' has been pretty well co-opted by people like Paul Elam.

It's the same way that people seeking to build bridges across religious divides don't choose to hang out with the WBC.

Offline Caehlim

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2014, 01:22:33 PM »
And thank you for that. I missed that thread.

No problem at all. It's very relevant to this thread as well and you brought up unique points that hadn't been touched on the other thread.

I just didn't want you missing half the conversation.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2014, 03:22:22 PM »
Forgive me if I do not take We Hunt the Mammoth as an unbiased or credible source for anything in these types of debates. I see alot of out of context quotes some that are vile. Does it mean there are no MRA moderates? Probably not.
So you're saying that the quotes on that page did not in fact come from Paul Elam?

And... yeah, considering that AVfM is pretty much mainstream as far as the MRA movement goes... anybody who identifies as an MRA is, at the very least, condoning that. So they're not exactly moderate.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2014, 03:38:03 PM »
Can we put the MRA discussion in the Men's Liberation thread, please?

Especially since it -actively- comments on Radical Masculinists who are, in fact, the moderates that feminists have actively worked alongside since the 70s?

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2014, 12:58:33 PM »
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

I didn't make this, but I respect the fuck outta the person that did...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 01:15:33 PM by Deamonbane »

Offline Slywyn

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2014, 01:24:40 PM »
There are many things wrong with that, and I don't know where to begin or how to phrase them. Maybe someone smarter than I am can handle it because I don't think I could manage.

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2014, 01:27:21 PM »
Don't feed the trolls

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2014, 05:37:38 PM »
It really depends on the woman - and how lighthearted she is.  I think it is possible for a feminist to be really passionate about making meaningful change, and at the same time, also be able to laugh (if she personally wants to) at a funny sexist joke or sexy novelty - such as something from Spencer's.

What's happening now is that the women who do laugh at the jokes and sexy novelties are being vilified by other women, so they tend to distance themselves from 'feminism.'  Even here on E, when I joke around about stupid stuff with women, I notice the women who find humor in such things saying "I'm all for equal rights, but I'm not a feminist or anything."

Offline alextaylor

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2014, 09:00:58 PM »
Equality between the sexes is always good. But feminists just tend to pick the wrong fights. There are important issues, like discrimination in hiring, in investing, in friendships. But what feminists do is they look to cure the symptoms and do nothing about the cause. And their attempted cure is often so full of side effects that it scares people off.

There's a lot of possible solutions:
- push for paternity leave so married women aren't discriminated against
- make engineering sexy so pretty girls don't pick jobs that have lousy pay like art, sales, marketing, fashion, food (and then complain about women getting lower average salary)
- build more/better nurseries so that there are less stay at home moms
- give free comp sci courses or design courses to stay at home moms or offer remote jobs like data entry
- teach people to raise their girls to be tougher and raise their boys to be prettier

And it frustrates me so much when feminists keep bringing up Rape Culture because all it does is start fights and solves nothing.