You are either not logged in or not registered with our community. Click here to register.
 
December 09, 2016, 03:26:14 PM

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with username, password and session length

Click here if you are having problems.
Default Wide Screen Beige Lilac Rainbow Black & Blue October Send us your theme!

Hark!  The Herald!
Holiday Issue 2016

Wiki Blogs Dicebot

Author Topic: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation  (Read 6495 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Blythe

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2014, 05:29:22 PM »
Uhm... would you believe me if I told that I'm actually getting these facts from a feminist living in Sweden..?

Sorry I can't point you toward any online sources...

I strongly encourage you to look into researching the topic and finding some sources, mostly because relying on one feminist to dictate your ideas of feminism in a place, you are in danger of allowing yourself to be led into stereotyping everyone that might fall under that label. It feels like you are allowing a single person to shape your view of something, which is not a productive or particularly informative approach learning about a topic.

Offline Beorning

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2014, 05:34:45 PM »
I strongly encourage you to look into researching the topic and finding some sources, mostly because relying on one feminist to dictate your ideas of feminism in a place, you are in danger of allowing yourself to be led into stereotyping everyone that might fall under that label. It feels like you are allowing a single person to shape your view of something, which is not a productive or particularly informative approach learning about a topic.

You're right, but to clarify: it's not that I met one Swedish feminist who was a TERF and now I build my views of all Swedish feminists on her. It's that this particular feminist is actually critical of TERFs etc. and told me of how influential (or, at least, visible) they are in Sweden...

Offline Blythe

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2014, 05:38:12 PM »
You're right, but to clarify: it's not that I met one Swedish feminist who was a TERF and now I build my views of all Swedish feminists on her. It's that this particular feminist is actually critical of TERFs etc. and told me of how influential (or, at least, visible) they are in Sweden...

This clarification does help.  :-)

But regardless, my above advice still applies. While I'm not saying to discount your feminist friend's advice or information, a good maxim when dealing with a new subject to learn about is "trust but verify." When in doubt, asking her for her sources about TERF feminists in Sweden could be helpful for you as you learn more about the political layout in regards to feminists in Sweden.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 05:39:23 PM by Blythe »

Offline Beorning

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2014, 05:45:08 PM »
This clarification does help.  :-)

Good, because I don't want to end up looking like a bastard to you :)

Quote
But regardless, my above advice still applies. While I'm not saying to discount your feminist friend's advice or information, a good maxim when dealing with a new subject to learn about is "trust but verify." When in doubt, asking her for her sources about TERF feminists in Sweden could be helpful for you as you learn more about the political layout in regards to feminists in Sweden.

Well, can't disagree with that. Although I don't speak Swedish, so finding sources might be hard...

Also, the few things I've read about Swedish feminism on my own really fit with what my informant is saying...

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2014, 05:47:15 PM »
Lot of activity in this thread!

Let me back up to the Black Sashes, quickly. Black Sashes are not and never were people who had serious criticism of feminism and it's implementation. They were and are automatic gainsayers of anything with the title "Feminism". This is a distinct difference. And their reasoning behind the issue is, invariably, "I've got mine, so there's no problem". Hence the "-I'm- queen of my home -I- raise -My- babies, that's is. -I- don't need the vote"

It's not "Women aren't actually oppressed in that fashion and/or here is a list of resources that include citations that shape this conversation that you haven't cited and might explain the disconnect we're having". It's "It isn't a problem for -me- so we shouldn't bother changing anything for anyone else's benefit."

I suppose I didn't get that across very clearly in the initial post and I apologize.

As for Sweden and the mainstream argument: You're arguing that because it is common in Sweden it becomes Sweden's Mainstream. I think what we're having here is a difference in communication. When I say "Mainstream" I don't mean "Popular in an Area" I mean "Core Ideals and Thrust of a Political Affiliation". It's like arguing that Fiscal Centrist in a nation whose Overton Window has swung far enough that has swung far enough left to make Centrism seem hard right is 'actually' a Fiscal Conservative. The Overton Window is only showing what is considered socially acceptable in the area, and can obscure the truth, but objective external viewers can still see that the "Fiscal Conservative" is a Centrist.

Does that make sense?


Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2014, 06:05:51 PM »
I don't want people to start jumping on me, but just out of curiosity I decided to look up some Swedish laws that may affect men and women.  Like Caehlim said, most of it is in Swedish, but when I googled, I found a link on A Voice for Men (and I know MRA is a running joke here), but it contained some interesting laws that may be helpful in this discussion.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2014, 06:27:23 PM »
Oh, it's okay, Valthazar. MRAs are a joke, everywhere!

Sorry. Couldn't resist. More seriously: There is a greater context in those laws that is being selectively ignored to make a point.

Offline Valthazar

  • Writer ͏͏● Educator ● Gamer ● Roleplayer ● Debater ● Tech Connoisseur ● Gym Rat ● Procrastinator ● As they say, "A simple PM may lead to lifelong friendship" ▬▬▬▬
  • Suspended
  • Seducer
  • *
  • Join Date: Mar 2013
  • Location: United States
  • Gender: Male
  • Proceed and be bold. Embrace your insecurities.
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2014, 06:45:15 PM »
What I found most surprising in that link was this law:

Quote
Chapter 6

3 The child is from birth in the custody of both parents, if they are married to each other, and in other cases of mother alone. if the parents later marry each other, the child from that time will be in in the care of both of them, unless the Court has previously entrusted custody to one or two specially appointed custodians.

As the article states, Germany has been condemned by the EU court of human rights for having the exact same law a few years ago and the German Parliament was forced to change it.  This article is from December 2012, so I don't know if this law was also overturned or not.

My concern is that the vast majority of moderate "real" feminist activists who are working for equality (and I realize many genuinely are) still tend to overlook issues like these, mislabeling it as a step towards equality.  Perceptions of equality vary among individuals, and I think that is where much of the negative sentiments on feminism arise from.

Offline Hemingway

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2014, 06:51:46 PM »
Oh, it's okay, Valthazar. MRAs are a joke, everywhere!

Sorry. Couldn't resist. More seriously: There is a greater context in those laws that is being selectively ignored to make a point.

I definitely agree with this. Further, the 'explanation' given for a lot of them didn't really seem to match the laws as written.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2014, 07:35:07 PM »
To give some context to those laws:

In Denmark the Sexual and Physical Violence rate (as investigated by the European Union) is 52%. In Finland it comes in at 47% and in Sweden at 46%. They are number 3 on the list of worst offenders.

Though, to be fair, the UK and France come in fourth place at 44%.

22% of all the women in Sweden have been assaulted (sexually or otherwise) by a partner and reported it. According to all surveys and domestic violence searches in the nation there is underreporting on approximately 67% of all cases. So that 22% is, approximately, 37% of all women.

That's ridiculously huge. Assuming an even population split that represents 18 of the 46% of violence in the whole of the nation. About half of all violent and sexual crime is Domestic Abuse of Women. All violent Crime. For the whole country. Half of it is domestic abuse.

In that situation laws designed to give women legal and political power to extricate themselves from households of abuse are a reasonable measure. And a big part of that is custody of the children which are often used as a bargaining chip by abusers. "If you leave I'll just beat the kids, and you can't take them with you" is something heard in households across the world.

In a place with domestic violence against women on THAT scale, taking that power away from abusers is very important, even though it also takes the power away from law abiding good men. People need to recognize that fact. MRAs never can.

Offline Shjade

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2014, 07:55:53 PM »
For a more optimistic view of the law (if admittedly a less realistic one) consider the possibility that lawmakers in that country are simply overzealous fans of Beyonce and constructed the law so as to support and encourage her advice, which they took very much to heart, with regard to the placement of rings upon those whom you like.

Offline Hemingway

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2014, 07:57:59 PM »
People need to recognize that fact. MRAs never can.

The fact that sometimes equality in principle does not lead to equality in practice? Because that seems to be one of the hardest things for a lot of people to understand - and not just in questions of gender and sex.

I do have a question, though - do you have a source for those statistics? I'd like to know a bit more.

Online Lustful Bride

  • "Logic is for Squares."
  • Lady
  • Enchanter
  • *
  • Join Date: Jun 2014
  • Gender: Female
  • This is some personal text. There are many like it, but this one is mine!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 0
Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2014, 07:58:22 PM »
For a more optimistic view of the law (if admittedly a less realistic one) consider the possibility that lawmakers in that country are simply overzealous fans of Beyonce and constructed the law so as to support and encourage her advice, which they took very much to heart, with regard to the placement of rings upon those whom you like.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Then again I cant remember the last time I listened to beyonce so.... :P

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2014, 08:43:21 PM »
'If you like it, put a ring on it' is the lyric (as I recall).  A 'response' to the old hook of 'If you loved me, you'd have sex with me.'

Offline consortium11

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2014, 09:00:22 PM »
22% of all the women in Sweden have been assaulted (sexually or otherwise) by a partner and reported it. According to all surveys and domestic violence searches in the nation there is underreporting on approximately 67% of all cases. So that 22% is, approximately, 37% of all women.

You're misreading the study.

22% of women surveyed across Europe said they had been subject physical and/or sexual violence by a partner. Of that 22%, 67% didn't report the most serious incident to the police.

That said, Sweden did come out as one of the worst countries in the survey... it was higher than the EU average in pretty much every category and in some cases twice as high. But we should remember a couple of things:

1) The survey was of about 0.04% of the female Swedish population. There's also the standard issue with a self-selecting audience; if you receive a phonecall asking you to take part in survey on sexual violence those most impacted by it as most likely to respond.

2) Before we paint Sweden as a hotbed of domestic abuse we should also remember what is noted within the survey itself; countries with higher gender equality tend to respond more openly in surveys relating to sexual assault. Without wanting to stereotype too much do people genuinely think that a woman in Sweden (generally seen as being one of the best places in the world to be a woman) is twice as likely to suffer from sexual violence than a woman in Bulgaria? Or simply more likely to talk about it? (Although we should note that the results indicate that Swedish women reported incidents to the police less than other countries as well)

3) More a general point about statistics and Sweden; Sweden almost always comes near the top of the list when it comes to rape statistics. But a significant reason for this is that the definition of rape in Sweden is wider than in other countries (where much of what the Swedes consider rape is classed as a sexual assault) and the way the Swedish justice system works means that if a crime is reported as a rape it goes on the system as a rape even if it isn't prosecuted or is eventually changed to a different crime; we're frequently comparing apples and onions here.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2014, 09:16:55 PM »
You're right, Consortium, save for one detail.

I didn't misread that study, I read a mistranslated version of the same study reproduced on a Swedish site I was linked to in a Tumblr chain discussing the MRA article and the larger imagery around it.

I should've checked the translation and that's my fault. I apologize.

Though you do raise a good point about people's willingness to talk about it. There's a pretty strong theory that violence against women is about the same in every nation in the world, it's just a different matter of how it is treated and interacted with. In some nations women specifically under report violence because of expectations of violence against them in their culture, the way victims of crimes are publicly treated, and the resulting interpersonal considerations should they report.

Well. That's the theory behind the under reporting of violence espoused by the theories surrounded Rape Culture, at least.

Offline Caehlim

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2014, 09:18:10 PM »
I don't want people to start jumping on me, but just out of curiosity I decided to look up some Swedish laws that may affect men and women.  Like Caehlim said, most of it is in Swedish, but when I googled, I found a link on A Voice for Men (and I know MRA is a running joke here), but it contained some interesting laws that may be helpful in this discussion.

If you want to read the Sweden: Children and Parents code chapters 6 and 21 in English in their completeness, I found a full translation:

http://ceflonline.net/wp-content/uploads/Sweden-Parental-Responsibilities-Legislation.pdf

It's really not that sexist once you consider basic biology. When a new child is born, you definitely have a mother because she's rather involved in the process and is going to be right there with you in the hospital while the baby is getting registered. For her to be automatically one of the people with custody makes sense because she's had custody for the last nine months and you can be pretty damn certain the baby is hers.

Anything else that isn't based on a document already in government recording keeping (like a marriage certificate) CAN'T be the automatic process because it requires human oversight and judgement. Which we see is provided in section 5.

Quote
Section 5
If both parents have custody of a child or one of them does and if either of them
wishes the custody position to be changed, the court shall, having regard to the best
interests of he child, order that the parents are to have joint custody or entrust custody to one
of the parents. The court may not order joint custody if both parents are opposed to it.
Questions concerning a change in the custody position as provided in the first paragraph
shall be considered on the application of one or both of the parents. In a divorce case the
court may, of its own motion, entrust custody of the child to one of the parents, if joint
custody is manifestly incompatible with the best interests of the child.

Offline Caehlim

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2014, 09:37:18 PM »
The fact that sometimes equality in principle does not lead to equality in practice? Because that seems to be one of the hardest things for a lot of people to understand - and not just in questions of gender and sex.

I've always found this a really interesting topic, a lot of game theorists have done some really interesting analysis on this point.

Have you ever heard of the theory of second best? Here's the wiki article explaining it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_the_second_best

Basically making the law "more fair" will not necessarily make the situation "more fair" because of the existing differences. In these cases you may actually have to make the law "less fair" in order to make the situation "more fair". (I'm putting more and less fair in scare quotes because this is a simplification, you'd actually need a much more rigorous standard to apply then something as simple as more fair)

and I know MRA is a running joke here

As someone who cares about equality, issues that affect men trouble me just as much as issues that affect women. It's unfortunate that MRA or whatever you want to call people who bring attention to issues confronting men have such... well, in the language of this thread, terrible representation.

We do need to be aware that counselling services for males who undergone trauma and abuse are less prevalent than female oriented services. Disparities in suicide rates should be a matter of concern as well. There are some other issues as well, but these are the two that trouble me the most.

The problem comes when these issues are portrayed as being the opposite of feminism or in opposition to feminism. Now, most people look at issues confronting men as being an excuse, distraction or derailment tactic rather than treating them seriously. This is partly because that's how they've been used in a lot of debates but it's also partly because some feminists who are less versed in intersectionality decry these issues even when presented in reasonable ways.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2014, 10:25:08 PM »
Oh, there's no doubt that issues facing men need to be addressed. Especially when it comes to issues of legality and social justice. The biggest issue is that such topics are rarely discussed on their own merit and are brought up by MRAs as a method of recentering discussion of women's rights issues on men.

That is why MRAs aren't taken seriously.

When MRAs start campaigning for marriage equality, trans care, anti-racist messaging, and other issues of discrimination that men face they'll be taken much more seriously and might even develop into a real and important political movement. Currently they're farcical.

I would like to note a couple of things about the MRA talking points you brought up, though. Men commit suicide in greater numbers than women, but it's not for lack of trying. Three times as many women as men attempt suicide. We're just not as socially conditioned and trained in appropriate methods of ending our lives and often fail.

There's also the issue that about 1,000 male suicides per year are Murder-Suicides in which the man kills his intimate partner (or former intimate partner) before taking his own life. Women make up a significantly smaller portion of murder-suicides and tend to kill their children.

That said we definitely need more male counseling for domestic violence, among many other topics. But for that to have any sort of positive effect we need to change the environment of toxic masculinity. Specifically the part where "Real Men Don't Cry" or otherwise share their emotions/problems with others. It's very harmful to everyone.

And yes. If I have $2 and you have $10 and we each are given two additional dollars we will not be any closer to having an equal sum of money.Given enough instances of two dollar increments it could become a statistically insignificant difference ($8 difference doesn't mean much when you're talking about $5,000 for example) but we could reach actual equality much more quickly and efficiently by giving the person with $2 all $4 each cycle for two cycles and then giving both people $2 thereafter.

Offline Caehlim

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2014, 10:50:07 PM »
When MRAs start campaigning for marriage equality, trans care, anti-racist messaging, and other issues of discrimination that men face they'll be taken much more seriously and might even develop into a real and important political movement. Currently they're farcical.

By the same logic that I can call myself a feminist I can also call myself a Men's Right's Activist (although I really don't like to because... ick...) and I do campaign for marriage equality, trans care and anti-racist messaging.

Personally I just find it easier to call myself a strongly intersectionalist feminist and say that men's issues are feminist issues. A culture of Kyriarchy has negative effects on everyone (though most strongly upon oppressed groups).

Quote
I would like to note a couple of things about the MRA talking points you brought up, though. Men commit suicide in greater numbers than women, but it's not for lack of trying. Three times as many women as men attempt suicide. We're just not as socially conditioned and trained in appropriate methods of ending our lives and often fail.

There's nothing minor about even attempted suicide. I have friends who have survived attempted self-destruction (both male and female) and their issues should never be erased from the discussion. We need to make sure that people in this kind of situation receive the right aftercare (which often they don't).

However if men are therefore at greater risk of successful suicide, (whether because of culturally enhanced combat aptitude or whatever factor leads to it) then we also need to make sure that they receive more care in the prevention stage because they're unlikely to survive to the post-care stage.

Quote
There's also the issue that about 1,000 male suicides per year are Murder-Suicides in which the man kills his intimate partner (or former intimate partner) before taking his own life. Women make up a significantly smaller portion of murder-suicides and tend to kill their children.

This means that by taking more action to prevent male suicide, we're also taking action to prevent murder. This sounds like a worthy area in which to invest time and energy.

Quote
That said we definitely need more male counseling for domestic violence, among many other topics. But for that to have any sort of positive effect we need to change the environment of toxic masculinity. Specifically the part where "Real Men Don't Cry" or otherwise share their emotions/problems with others. It's very harmful to everyone.

Absolutely.

Quote
And yes. If I have $2 and you have $10 and we each are given two additional dollars we will not be any closer to having an equal sum of money. Given enough instances of two dollar increments it could become a statistically insignificant difference ($8 difference doesn't mean much when you're talking about $5,000 for example) but we could reach actual equality much more quickly and efficiently by giving the person with $2 all $4 each cycle for two cycles and then giving both people $2 thereafter.

Yes but the people who started with $10 will hang out at slightly more expensive places and thus network with eachother, develop their own exclusive trading lists, help eachother find better investment opportunities for their money. They'll work in teams investing their $12 together to get a greater payoff, while the people with $4 will only just be able to cover their living costs and won't have any excess to invest.

Then they'll turn around and sneer at the poor people who started with $2 and say "what are you complaining about, you got the $2 handout just like I did. I just made my money work for me." (ignoring the cultural background that strongly supported them and provided them advantages at every turn).

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2014, 10:54:40 PM »
My previous post had a major error in it that I'm correcting, now.

There are approximately 1,000 murder-suicides a year, with a 10 to 1 ratio of male killer/suicide to female.

In the first half of 2011 for example there were 313 murder-suicides. 30 were committed by women. 283 were committed by men. There were 378 murder victims in the first half of that year.

I apologize for making that mistake.

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2014, 11:25:40 PM »
By the same logic that I can call myself a feminist I can also call myself a Men's Right's Activist (although I really don't like to because... ick...) and I do campaign for marriage equality, trans care and anti-racist messaging.

Could always call yourself a 'humanist':

Quote
Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives.

Offline Orange Marmalade

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2014, 11:40:40 PM »
Oh, there's no doubt that issues facing men need to be addressed. Especially when it comes to issues of legality and social justice. The biggest issue is that such topics are rarely discussed on their own merit and are brought up by MRAs as a method of recentering discussion of women's rights issues on men.

That is why MRAs aren't taken seriously.

Most likely this happens because feminists have a habit of recentering every issue around them or around blaming men for all their problems.

This is why feminists aren't taken seriously.

Aren't generalizations fun?

Online Oniya

  • StoreHouse of Useless Trivia
  • Oracle
  • Carnite
  • *
  • Join Date: Sep 2008
  • Location: Just bouncing through. Hi! City of Roses, Pennsylvania
  • Gender: Female
  • One bad Motokifuka. Also cute and FLUFFY!
  • My Role Play Preferences
  • View My Rolls
  • Referrals: 3
Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2014, 11:43:22 PM »
Most likely this happens because feminists have a habit of recentering every issue around them or around blaming men for all their problems.

This is why feminists aren't taken seriously.

Aren't generalizations fun?

Two wrongs don't make a right.  Especially when the fact that the issues facing men was stated as being something that does need to be addressed on its own merit.

Offline Orange Marmalade

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2014, 11:50:29 PM »
Two wrongs don't make a right.  Especially when the fact that the issues facing men was stated as being something that does need to be addressed on its own merit.

My point was simply to point out the absurdity of her statement by changing the roles around. I thought that was fairly obvious.