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Author Topic: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation  (Read 6479 times)

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Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #100 on: November 19, 2014, 05:19:27 AM »
Feminists have been pushing for Paternity leave (and for society to stop shitting on men for taking care of their kids and the household) for years. http://jezebel.com/paternity-leave-why-dads-going-home-with-baby-is-aweso-1489938655 Here's a Jezebel article from last year, one of the first results on a Google Search. Though, really, what we want is joint Parental Leave that both the mother and father can spend, together or individually at any given point between the two of them. (Or mother and mother, father and father, father and nonbinary parent, mother and nonbinary parent, you get the idea)

Making Engineering Sexy: Just reinforces stereotypes of what a woman is supposed to be (Sexy). Far better is trying to target young girls with science education to get them interested in engineering and other STEM occupations while simultaneously trying to alleviate the stigma against women in STEM fields. Both things that feminists are doing.

Build More/Better Nurseries: Are you serious on this one? I really can't tell. Most women who are unable to find support for their children so they can go to work don't have the issue of a lack of nurseries around: It's a lack of money. Besides, Parental Leave (number 1 on the list) would help solve the issue.

Give Free Comp Sci/Jobs to Stay at Home Moms: Feminism is an ideological movement, not a corporation. We don't have data entry jobs to hire stay at home Moms for because that's not how this sort of movement works. Though feminism does try to sponsor STEM programs for women whenever possible (mostly aimed at children rather than stay at home Moms because you need a lifetime of learning about the subject matter to get the job, y'know?)

Teach people to raise their girls tougher and boys prettier: W... what? This... I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mean parents should put makeup on their sons and tell their daughters to "Walk it off"? 'Cause that's the kind of thing that pisses people off about feminist straw-men and has for decades. While we're trying to break down the socially enforced gender roles that lead to "Tough Boy, Pretty Girl, Nonbinary Nonexistence!" and have been FOR DECADES it's not as simple as just reversing the stereotypes or trying to put in a half and half solution.

As for Rape Culture... yeah. It start fights and solves nothing. It's not a solution. It's an expression to encapsulate a series of propositions that explain the sociological implications of a society which trivializes and condones rape in a wide variety of situations while simultaneously demonizing a specific type of extremely violent rape to push the horror of the crime (regardless of it's circumstance) off.

This is why the Steubenville Rapists, who brutally raped a drunken girl and dumped her unconscious and battered body naked in a snowbank near her house, are known as "Good Boys whose future shouldn't be ruined"

And it's also why inmates who get stuck in a cell with a big dude named Bubba getting violently raped are the butt of jokes (no pun intended). Because violent rape is FUNNY if you socially condemn someone!

But because it's such a new term people don't fully understand and people don't like the implications it puts on the society they live in (and often support to a jingoistic extent) it starts arguments. But it's only through education that people will come to understand what it is actually about.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2014, 05:53:09 AM »
As for the shirt thing... Yeah. So many red herrings and concern trolling flying around from antifeminists and MRAs I don't want to get into it too deeply. Here's the four part explanation of the problem:

1. Dude wore a shirt covered in half-nude women to work.
2. The shirt was sexist and it really should have occurred to him that it was inappropriate attire.
3. Dude apologized for his mistake.

Things that don't matter:
It was made by a woman. A black guy writing racist propaganda against black men is still writing racist propaganda.
Freedom of Speech. He's got every right to wear that shirt: Everyone else has every right to point out how fucked up it is.
He Landed a Probe on a Moving Object from Thousands of Miles Away. So what? He gets a free ride to passively be a jerk? Fuck that.

Online Silk

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #102 on: November 19, 2014, 06:13:40 AM »


Scantly dressed sure, but I wouldn't really say half naked only things really exposed is arms legs with a dash of low crop clothing, unless you consider the idea of a leotard to be half naked (only one that comes close is the strap lines on the top left), no dangerous exposure besides a couple of poses. Tacky and inappropriate? Sure, Belittling statement and sexist pig? Not really.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 06:15:08 AM by Silk »

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #103 on: November 19, 2014, 06:21:32 AM »
1. I said I didn't want to get into this too deeply.
2. Quibbling over which half of the woman is nude is pointless they're still "Scantily Clad" and sexualized.
3. I didn't once call him a sexist pig. Don't mischaracterize me or my statements, please.

Offline Kythia

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2014, 06:23:09 AM »
Sorry, Silk, I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.  Are you saying people are wrong to find it sexist?  Because, yanno, thats not really up to you.  Or are you just saying that you personally didn't find it so.  In which case...cool. I guess.  I'll sleep well tonight now that's cleared up. 

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2014, 06:38:38 AM »
Are people who are offended by the shirt saying it is sexist because of the scantily clad women?   Would it still be sexist if his shirt featured both scantily clad men and women?

Online Silk

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2014, 06:39:21 AM »
You did say his shirt was sexist and that he was passively being a jerk though (implying he somehow intended it)

No but a black man calling a black man a N***a is considered acceptable, but a white man saying it is a racist.

What happened to the "Don't judge us by how we dress" thing? Guess I just have this  notion that equality should be both or neither. If one doesn't want to be judged, then they shouldn't judge themselves. And don't bring up the whole rape thing. Major or minor, the same premise of judging another by their clothing is still there.

Sorry, Silk, I'm not sure I understand the point you're making.  Are you saying people are wrong to find it sexist?  Because, yanno, thats not really up to you.  Or are you just saying that you personally didn't find it so.  In which case...cool. I guess.  I'll sleep well tonight now that's cleared up. 

No I'm saying the response to something as miniscule as a shirt is insanely overblown and should be called out. I'm glad you'll sleep better though, I'm losing sleep over the injustices perpetrated by a ideological group that continuously claims to have the moral high ground yet in many cases is no better than what it "fights against". But I guess being condescending is the way forward for some people.



So wheres the uproar against the blatant sexism against her shirt?

Offline Kythia

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2014, 06:42:10 AM »
So wheres the uproar against the blatant sexism against her shirt?

9gag.  See, as an example, the image you posted.

Online Silk

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2014, 06:52:59 AM »
9gag.  See, as an example, the image you posted.
Yeah, in response to the blatant bullshit against Matt Taylor It's pretty full of it right now and rightly so.  Yet there is still plenty of people trying to justify the aggro he's gotten while defending the feminist movement. Same nobody takes 9gag seriously and the stuff posted there won't see the light of day in pretty much any media unlike a certain movement I need not mention.

Seriously though. I would love to call myself a feminist, but this constant tripe and nit-picking of things that are overblown and in the grand scheme of things really don't matter. Is forcing me, and a rather sizable portion of society to distance ourselves from it. It detracts from the good that it does. So let's play a little game.

Matt Taylor's achievements are being overshadowed because and I quote.
Quote
He Landed a Probe on a Moving Object from Thousands of Miles Away. So what? He gets a free ride to passively be a jerk? Fuck that.


So the Feminist movement
Feminists have been pushing for Paternity leave (and for society to stop shitting on men for taking care of their kids and the household) for years. http://jezebel.com/paternity-leave-why-dads-going-home-with-baby-is-aweso-1489938655 Here's a Jezebel article from last year, one of the first results on a Google Search. Though, really, what we want is joint Parental Leave that both the mother and father can spend, together or individually at any given point between the two of them. (Or mother and mother, father and father, father and nonbinary parent, mother and nonbinary parent, you get the idea)

Making Engineering Sexy: Just reinforces stereotypes of what a woman is supposed to be (Sexy). Far better is trying to target young girls with science education to get them interested in engineering and other STEM occupations while simultaneously trying to alleviate the stigma against women in STEM fields. Both things that feminists are doing.

Build More/Better Nurseries: Are you serious on this one? I really can't tell. Most women who are unable to find support for their children so they can go to work don't have the issue of a lack of nurseries around: It's a lack of money. Besides, Parental Leave (number 1 on the list) would help solve the issue.

Give Free Comp Sci/Jobs to Stay at Home Moms: Feminism is an ideological movement, not a corporation. We don't have data entry jobs to hire stay at home Moms for because that's not how this sort of movement works. Though feminism does try to sponsor STEM programs for women whenever possible (mostly aimed at children rather than stay at home Moms because you need a lifetime of learning about the subject matter to get the job, y'know?)

Teach people to raise their girls tougher and boys prettier: W... what? This... I don't understand what you mean here. Do you mean parents should put makeup on their sons and tell their daughters to "Walk it off"? 'Cause that's the kind of thing that pisses people off about feminist straw-men and has for decades. While we're trying to break down the socially enforced gender roles that lead to "Tough Boy, Pretty Girl, Nonbinary Nonexistence!" and have been FOR DECADES it's not as simple as just reversing the stereotypes or trying to put in a half and half solution.

As for Rape Culture... yeah. It start fights and solves nothing. It's not a solution. It's an expression to encapsulate a series of propositions that explain the sociological implications of a society which trivializes and condones rape in a wide variety of situations while simultaneously demonizing a specific type of extremely violent rape to push the horror of the crime (regardless of it's circumstance) off.

This is why the Steubenville Rapists, who brutally raped a drunken girl and dumped her unconscious and battered body naked in a snowbank near her house, are known as "Good Boys whose future shouldn't be ruined"

And it's also why inmates who get stuck in a cell with a big dude named Bubba getting violently raped are the butt of jokes (no pun intended). Because violent rape is FUNNY if you socially condemn someone!

But because it's such a new term people don't fully understand and people don't like the implications it puts on the society they live in (and often support to a jingoistic extent) it starts arguments. But it's only through education that people will come to understand what it is actually about.

So that excuses some of them from being a bunch of whiny little nitpicking bitches to everyone that isn't part of their club or had the audacity to be born male? People say don't condemn Christianity for the actions of the WBC, or Islam for the ISIS, different being both of those condemn those groups quite openly. Most I hear is "Well that's not real feminism" as if that makes it all ok.

Offline Kythia

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2014, 06:57:20 AM »
Yeah, in response to the blatant bullshit against Matt Taylor It's pretty full of it right now and rightly so.  Yet there is still plenty of people trying to justify the aggro he's gotten while defending the feminist movement. Same nobody takes 9gag seriously and the stuff posted there won't see the light of day in pretty much any media unlike a certain movement I need not mention.

Again, I'm not clear of your point.  Are you annoyed that a backlash against Valenti's shirt hasn't gained more traction?  It was fairly heavily discussed when it came out a few months ago, I seem to recall.  Not to the extent of Matt's, I'll grant, but it did certainly happen.  It got overshadowed a little by some other stuff (Valenti was accused of wearing it in response to male suicide figures being released then some made up quotes were attributed to her) which moved the conversation from the shirt itself. 

Offline Oniya

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2014, 08:33:18 AM »
Here's a silly question.

Has the person who designed Matt Taylor's shirt come under the same degree of fire as he has himself, and has there been an apology from that front?

Online Silk

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2014, 08:46:08 AM »
Here's a silly question.

Has the person who designed Matt Taylor's shirt come under the same degree of fire as he has himself, and has there been an apology from that front?

Of course not, it's a woman who made it so she did no wrong. Apparently

Offline Slywyn

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2014, 08:59:10 AM »
Of course not, it's a woman who made it so she did no wrong. Apparently

Except people have said many times she's wrong for making the shirt, SOOOOOOOOO.

Offline Kythia

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #113 on: November 19, 2014, 09:01:55 AM »
Except people have said many times she's wrong for making the shirt, SOOOOOOOOO.

Yeah, I was about to say.  Meanwhile in the real world...Steampunkette has criticised her misogyny in this very thread:

It was made by a woman. A black guy writing racist propaganda against black men is still writing racist propaganda.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2014, 09:15:54 AM »
Silk, I'm beginning to realize we're not going to see eye to eye on the topic.

Yes. There are Radfems who exist and cry out for all penises to be destroyed and men to be enslaved and call for political lesbianism. Not a question or a debate and it was touched on in the original post of this thread, specifically noting that it represented the violent edge of second wave feminism (and people who are in their 50s and 60s, today)

That doesn't negate the achievements first wave feminism made or undermine or devalue the work third wave feminism is doing. And it's not like we can somehow get rid of Second Wave Radfems or the daughters they raise believing the same ideology is somehow a good thing any more than Christians can get rid of the Westboro Baptist Church. They exist. The best we can do is limit their impact and move on. Thankfully they're all getting older and older and will, eventually, die out. Part of what I'm waiting for, y'know?

So I guess you can either choose to identify as a third wave feminist and support forward momentum, gain education on issues that exist around you but are hidden behind weak reasoning that is reinforced socially, and work toward a better future for women...

Or you can not do those things and try to succeed at what you are looking to do, whatever that is.

But at this point I understand enough about the sociology and background, history and politics, that you're not going to convince me to ignore what's going on. And yeah, I realize that sounds Culty or Brainwashed but, really, from my perspective a lot of the antifeminist posts in this thread and others seem just as confused or willfully ignorant.

I've been where you are, so don't think I don't understand your points or anything. I've just gained a wider perspective over the years than I had, then.

Offline Oniya

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2014, 09:58:26 AM »
Okay -  has there been any statement from her on the matter?  I'm not going to poke into the 'whys or why-nots', I just want to know if the designer has come forward with anything.  As a crafter, I know that if one of my creations caused such extreme embarrassment to someone that I had given it to (all the reports I've seen have said it was a gift), then I would be mortified.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2014, 10:03:35 AM »
I finally tracked down a journal I kept when I was in high school.  In it I had chronicled my first encounter with feminism.  I still feel the same today. 

Offline Slywyn

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2014, 10:29:30 AM »
I finally tracked down a journal I kept when I was in high school.  In it I had chronicled my first encounter with feminism.  I still feel the same today.

What was the encounter, out of curiosity?

Offline Blythe

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2014, 01:52:02 PM »
Just as a note about the scientist shirt topic since it was also in this thread--it now has it's own topic here.

Offline Blythe

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #119 on: November 20, 2014, 11:59:26 PM »
The topic of Matt Taylor's shirt is not on-topic for this particular thread, please. Let's move to other thread-relevant topics.

Offline Vekseid

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #120 on: November 21, 2014, 12:17:24 AM »
Alright, I've mentioned this on multiple occasions: I do not want the Daily Pedophile a.k.a. the Daily Mail to be linked to or referenced on Elliquiy. They are not now, and never have been a reliable source for anything whatsoever. There is a reason I call them the Daily Pedophile, and they taint everyone who ever gets bilked into reading a single word of their filth.

Ahem.

Thank you.

Offline SteampunketteTopic starter

Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #121 on: November 21, 2014, 09:14:45 AM »
So let's talk about the little things and why they lead to such terrible representation of feminism.

Firstly, no matter what someone tells you, the little things matter. A lot.

The big things, like the right to vote and equal ownership of property (which didn't happen until just before the Civil War in the US on a national scale, by the way), are huge and important victories. But why on Earth do they exist?

In Ancient Egypt, for example, around 3,100BC: Women were full citizens as far as property rights were concerned. They could own land, clothing, businesses. They could buy and sell and throw away their possessions if they so chose without issue. They could appear in a court of law to present a civil suit without requiring a man present to be their surrogate or their representation...

But by the time of Greece's ascent into power a woman could do none of those things. Those rights were specifically taken -away- from women in Greece's various lawbooks. What changed so drastically? (To be clear I used Egypt and Greece as comparative points to give context of the time disparity. Prior to the writing of the laws which stripped women's rights they stood on roughly the same footing as Egypt's women)

The first thing one must understand is this: Big things do not happen apropos of nothing. There is cause and there is effect, and in all but the most extreme of situations each action will have an equal reaction. It takes a particularly volatile situation or personality for an overwhelming reaction to occur.

If all the people around you owned land and businesses and houses and took their grievances to a civil court like regular ordinary people did, what kind of event would it take to drive you to remove all of those rights from half of the people around you? It would need to be something of dire seriousness, I imagine. Something so shocking to a standard course of reality that there would be massive ripples throughout society. But from what we know of Greece no such event occurred. No massive precipitous catastrophe from which all other dominoes fell.

Nothing. And yet half the population had their rights stripped away, easy as you please.

There is another impetus which allows for a massive destruction of personal rights, of course. And it's one we've seen over and over and over again, throughout history: Dehumanization.

The alternative to a single precipitous event is the plethora of tiny matters that reduce a person or group of people to something less than their peers. And once a group has been dehumanized to a certain degree taking away their rights is simple.

So while fighting for one's rights is of incredible importance, one also has to remember that we're fighting to be recognized as equal. Not just in the eyes of the law, but in the eyes of our peers.

And while many may rally to the cry that women are already seen as equal, I look to the microaggressions and the casual sexism and cissexism that flow around me and say "No. We are not. Here is proof. Here is the hundred thousand tiny ways you show that you do not see us as equal to yourself and to others."

I've seen the difference. From being treated as "One of the Guys" to being treated as "A Girl" is a hell of a lot farther than most people like to believe.

Because the difference is made up of tiny steps.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 09:18:30 AM by Steampunkette »

Offline Kythia

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #122 on: November 21, 2014, 09:44:25 AM »
I'm sorry, but this example doesn't work.  Sparta, contemporaneous with Greece, had full property rights for women.  Your argument seems to be "In this place at this time women's rights were x,y,z.  In a different place in a different time they were a,b,c.  So what changed?" 

Well, it was the place.  The place is what changed.  There's no reason to hypothesise a chain of tiny strippings of rights, simply that you are discussing two different cultures.  "In China in 500 CE people grew rice.  In Europe in 550 CE they grew wheat.  Why the change?"

I agree tiny things matter.  In the now locked shirt-thread I argued that at length.  But this argument doesn't demonstrate it.  There's no reason I'm aware of to assume that this:

Nothing. And yet half the population had their rights stripped away, easy as you please.

actually happened - no reason to suggest people had those rights to lose.  Greece and Egypt are different places and you can't simply draw a line between them.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #123 on: November 21, 2014, 10:04:24 AM »
Minoan Crete (around 20th to 15th cent. BC) has been hypotheszed sometimes as a society where women were dominant or at least moved on quite equal terms with men, and could wield real political and religious power. The trouble with that is, we don't have any written texts of any weight from the Minoans - none we are able to read anyway. Their art, paintings and lifestye does give an impression of femininity though, and there's an absence of clear images of male rulers, kings and so on. See Dawn of the Gods by British archaeologist Jacquetta Hawkes and some later books.

With the Minoans, we know some of what hppened though. Their country was most likely invaded by the Mycaenean Greeks who were much more macho and warlike; the old ways were mostly suppressed and many of the women no doubt enslaved.

Offline Kythia

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Re: An overview of Feminism and it's terrible representation
« Reply #124 on: November 21, 2014, 10:08:58 AM »
Minoan Crete (around 20th to 15th cent. BC) has been hypotheszed sometimes as a society where women were dominant or at least moved on quite equal terms with men, and could wield real political and religious power. The trouble with that is, we don't have any written texts of any weight from the Minoans - none we are able to read anyway. Their art, paintings and lifestye does give an impression of femininity though, and there's an absence of clear images of male rulers, kings and so on. See Dawn of the Gods by British archaeologist Jacquetta Hawkes and some later books.

With the Minoans, we know some of what hppened though. Their country was most likely invaded by the Mycaenean Greeks who were much more macho and warlike; the old ways were mostly suppressed and many of the women no doubt enslaved.

Yeah, as I understand it something broadly similar happened centuries later with the invasion of Egypt.  But, one would assume, it happened in the opposite direction when the people we now call Spartans (unsure whether that was their name at the time) moved in to what we now call Sparta (ditto?).

Throughout the ancient world there were a variety of attitudes to things like this, and drawing a line across geography doesn't work.  Struggling to think of a pure example.  Benin?