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Author Topic: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .  (Read 3243 times)

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Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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I was amazed as I did my Arkansas History work.  I'm taking an online course and as part of class participation the teacher posts three discussion questions every lesson and we answer them.  This chapter is about the Indian Removal.  The question was "Explain the reasons why Native Americans were removed from Arkansas.  In your opinion, could Americans and Native Americans live side-by-side based on your understanding of both cultures?"  Now I'm used to the people in my class only half-assed answering the questions, using no real intelect, and generally copying the answer of the person who sounds like they know the most.  But I was shocked as I read one persons answer to the second half of the disscussion question, "No, I donít think that Native American can live side by side with the Americans because the Native Americans usually carry diseases.  They usually live in hunter/farmer subsistence societies.  They eat insects for food, and they used spears, warclubs, bows, and arrows for weapons.  Also, we elect president and they elect chiefs."   :o  I'm left saying WTF????!!!!!!  I go on to say, "I would like to ask you Llee, where on earth did you get this information?  What facts are you basing this opinion off of?  I mean really?  WHAT?  You donít think that Americans could live side by side with Native Americans because the Native Americans carried diseases?  If I remember correctly disease was brought to the Native Americans by outsiders and it killed thousands!  They were not animals, they were human beings!  They werenít diseased anymore than the Americans.  Also, what is wrong with their hunter/farmer societies?  I live in South east Arkansas and our society here is based on farmers and has a huge amount of hunting.  There was nothing wrong with the way Native Americans lived.  What do you mean they eat insects as food?  They hunted animals and grew crops!  They had nutritional needs the same as the Americans.  Even if they did eat insects, whatís wrong with that?  Also, whatís wrong with their weapons?  They were primitive but they were effective.  But really by the time the Americans came they had more advanced weapons.  What does it matter that we elected a president?  Yes, they have a chief and they didnít elect him either.  Think about this!  They were here first, they saved our butts more than once. . .where do we get off kicking them out?  Stealing their land?  Murdering their people?  If they fought us, if they killed us. . .we deserved it!  Needless to say, I completely disagree with everything in the above quoted paragraph."  Really, was this person just NOT thinking? 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 09:27:37 PM »
This is not funny these are supposed to be the leaders of our society and can't do simple research.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2008, 09:28:57 PM »
This is not funny these are supposed to be the leaders of our society and can't do simple research.

Hmm?  I didn't say it was funny. . .this was just some dumbass in my Arkansas history class. . .I don't think they'll be leading society anywhere any time soon.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2008, 09:46:57 PM »
Ok we will say these are the people that VOTE for the leaders of our nation and you wonder why idiots get into office more often than not at least for the last few decades.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2008, 10:33:25 PM »
Ok we will say these are the people that VOTE for the leaders of our nation and you wonder why idiots get into office more often than not at least for the last few decades.

I don't wonder, I already knew why. 

Offline Sherona

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2008, 10:59:28 PM »
Native Americans did eat insects as delicacies, quite a few still do! I ate a "Indian hopper" before it was actually good if you got your mind off the fact it was a grasshopper, but I am not at all sure exactly why this would make it difficult to live side by side with.

The Native Americans did have a different political system that consisted more on who showed and proved that they wre ready to lead the tribe the most rather then a democracy. That probably would have lead to contention. Yes the White Man should have been able to live side by side with the native Americans, we do it quite well here in Oklahoma where there is still "Indian Land" and tribal lands, and tribes living here. I haven't had a single arrow shot at my house at all.

The problem was, that when the "White Man" came to teh America's they were not expecting to find huge civilizations of natives. And because in many societies those with the bigger guns tend to win, that was teh same back then. Not excusing the atrocities visited on the european settlers but just saying the mind frame alone would have made it next to impossible for peaceful co-exsistance.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2008, 11:10:08 PM »
Native Americans did eat insects as delicacies, quite a few still do! I ate a "Indian hopper" before it was actually good if you got your mind off the fact it was a grasshopper, but I am not at all sure exactly why this would make it difficult to live side by side with.

The Native Americans did have a different political system that consisted more on who showed and proved that they wre ready to lead the tribe the most rather then a democracy. That probably would have lead to contention. Yes the White Man should have been able to live side by side with the native Americans, we do it quite well here in Oklahoma where there is still "Indian Land" and tribal lands, and tribes living here. I haven't had a single arrow shot at my house at all.

The problem was, that when the "White Man" came to teh America's they were not expecting to find huge civilizations of natives. And because in many societies those with the bigger guns tend to win, that was teh same back then. Not excusing the atrocities visited on the european settlers but just saying the mind frame alone would have made it next to impossible for peaceful co-exsistance.

I didn't say they didn't eat bugs.  I said that that wasn't all they eat and even if it was what would be wrong with it. 

I didn't say their systems weren't different, I corrected their statement and asked what was wrong with that. 

The thing is this was pretty soon after the French-Indian war, the Americans did know that they would find huge settlements and civilizations because the Spanish and French had been there and they'd already explored there.  They came in looking for land and riches.  They were greedy and prejudiced.  They didn't want to live side by side with the Native Americans. 

Offline RubySlippers

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2008, 11:30:11 PM »
Lets see we wanted the land, the Native Americans to the mindset of the European Powers weren't using the land properly, we wanted it and we took it- seems fair enough. For how long before then did the European Powers fight over land rights and wealth say what you want our ancestors would good at it.

Look at this objectively we also stole the American Colonies from Britain, Texas stole Texas from Mexico and the California Territory was stolen by the United States from Mexico we tended to screw anyone over to get what we wanted. Regardless of who that group was including black slaves and indentured white people bonded to the colonies a very much form of white slavery. In the end we won and they had to adapt to us and some tribes did and others fought.

If you look at other Native American groups like the Aztecs I feel their destruction was likely a good thing and well deserved, although that was in South America.




Offline Sherona

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2008, 11:31:57 PM »
I dont think the destruction of any civilization is a good thing.


That being said, I forgot Poet that this was Arkansas and not just the North American continent in general *Grins* Sorry about that. But yes, I was just in my long winded way, agreeing wtih you :)

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2008, 11:46:13 PM »
Your classmate definitely has an interesting view of culture.  Little ethnocentric I would say.  They are correct in saying that the newly arriving people and Native Americans couldn't live together.  The reasoning is really far from the mark though.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2008, 11:05:44 AM »
Lets see we wanted the land, the Native Americans to the mindset of the European Powers weren't using the land properly, we wanted it and we took it- seems fair enough. For how long before then did the European Powers fight over land rights and wealth say what you want our ancestors would good at it.

Look at this objectively we also stole the American Colonies from Britain, Texas stole Texas from Mexico and the California Territory was stolen by the United States from Mexico we tended to screw anyone over to get what we wanted. Regardless of who that group was including black slaves and indentured white people bonded to the colonies a very much form of white slavery. In the end we won and they had to adapt to us and some tribes did and others fought.

If you look at other Native American groups like the Aztecs I feel their destruction was likely a good thing and well deserved, although that was in South America.





Yes, we stole, cheated, murdered. . .anything to get what we wanted.  That's not a good thing.  But even the most assimilated Native American tribe was still just NOT good enough because there was one thing they could never change, the color of their skin.

I dont think the destruction of any civilization is a good thing.


That being said, I forgot Poet that this was Arkansas and not just the North American continent in general *Grins* Sorry about that. But yes, I was just in my long winded way, agreeing wtih you :)

*grins*  It's alright, I figured that was the case.  And I agree with Sherona, the destruction of a civilization is never a good thing.  Those people had the same right to live as you or I do. 

Your classmate definitely has an interesting view of culture.  Little ethnocentric I would say.  They are correct in saying that the newly arriving people and Native Americans couldn't live together.  The reasoning is really far from the mark though.

I agree that they were VERY ethnocentric.  But I do believe that it was possible to Coexist with the Native Americans.  We just didn't want to.

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2008, 02:29:39 PM »
The unfortunate truth of the situation is that the Native Americans were destined to lose this land.  Destined in the sense that once Europeans took an interest here, nothing could be done to stop that expansion.  Native Americans lacked the military strength to resist and also lacked the cultural advances of nationalism to unify their population.  I know many people point to the wonders of their tribal life, technology and community but in a global sense they were behind the curve.  There was no way they could have realized the threat these new people posed and no way they could prepare for the what would come.

Lying and cheating may have been the sins used to gain the land, but they are the common tools of politics.  Taking advantage of others and using their weaknesses to an advantage are the marks of good leaders.  The Native Americans had no way of enforcing their side of a contract and no legal recourse upon such a violation.  This is why there was no possibilty for co-existance.  There cannot be a peaceful exchange when one party is that disadvantaged against another.  Their only choice is to assimilate or be destroyed by the stronger party (yes I know I sound like the Borg).  Alexander did the same to tribes he came across, Ganghas Khan(sp?) did the same, Rome did so as well and so did England with its other populations.  Countries grow until they reach a greater force or they begin to fall under their own weight. 

So I don't really see how there could have been any peaceful coexistance with Native Americans.  As cold hearted as it sounds, they were just not equipped to handle the European invasion.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2008, 02:48:44 PM »
The unfortunate truth of the situation is that the Native Americans were destined to lose this land.  Destined in the sense that once Europeans took an interest here, nothing could be done to stop that expansion.  Native Americans lacked the military strength to resist and also lacked the cultural advances of nationalism to unify their population.  I know many people point to the wonders of their tribal life, technology and community but in a global sense they were behind the curve.  There was no way they could have realized the threat these new people posed and no way they could prepare for the what would come.

Lying and cheating may have been the sins used to gain the land, but they are the common tools of politics.  Taking advantage of others and using their weaknesses to an advantage are the marks of good leaders.  The Native Americans had no way of enforcing their side of a contract and no legal recourse upon such a violation.  This is why there was no possibilty for co-existance.  There cannot be a peaceful exchange when one party is that disadvantaged against another.  Their only choice is to assimilate or be destroyed by the stronger party (yes I know I sound like the Borg).  Alexander did the same to tribes he came across, Ganghas Khan(sp?) did the same, Rome did so as well and so did England with its other populations.  Countries grow until they reach a greater force or they begin to fall under their own weight. 

So I don't really see how there could have been any peaceful coexistance with Native Americans.  As cold hearted as it sounds, they were just not equipped to handle the European invasion.

There could have been had the Europeans been willing to play fair.  I know, I know, in reality people are cold hearted bastards only looking out for themselves. . .  Whatever!  The Native Americans were people and they were willing to give aid to some of the Europeans when treated kindly.  So maybe deep down somewhere the Europeans are to blame for the mass murder and other evils done to the Native Americans!  Just because the Spanish did it doens't make it right.  Just because Sally or Bob are jumping off bridges doesn't mean I have to go jump off a bridge as well.  The excuse that it's the norm is not a good excuse.  It was wrong. 

Offline Methos

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2008, 04:35:40 PM »
Well you also stole Oregon, Washington state and the Alaskan panhandle from Canada - jerks.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2008, 06:05:28 PM »
Well you also stole Oregon, Washington state and the Alaskan panhandle from Canada - jerks.

It's alright I've never been to these states, don't care to go to them and probably never will!  For all I care Canada can have them back!

Offline Pumpkin Seeds

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2008, 08:28:25 PM »
Not really going to argue the morality of what happened.  I doubt few would say that it was ethical what occured, but I was merely pointing out an inability to coexist. 

Offline Storiwyr

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2008, 10:01:50 AM »
Taking advantage of others and using their weaknesses to an advantage are the marks of good leaders.

I strongly disagree. Those are marks of a good expansionist. Expansion does not always equal leadership. Leaders do not have to exploit people to be good leaders. Can a good leader have those traits? Yes. But so can some really horrible people who are terrible leaders.

Well you also stole Oregon, Washington state and the Alaskan panhandle from Canada - jerks.
It's alright I've never been to these states, don't care to go to them and probably never will!  For all I care Canada can have them back!

Believe me. Canada CAN have us back. We don't mind. :P

Offline Zakharra

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2008, 11:00:34 AM »
Believe me. Canada CAN have us back. We don't mind. :P

 I do NOT want to live on the new US Western border, thank you very much.. >:(

Offline RubySlippers

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 11:42:04 AM »
There could have been had the Europeans been willing to play fair.  I know, I know, in reality people are cold hearted bastards only looking out for themselves. . .  Whatever!  The Native Americans were people and they were willing to give aid to some of the Europeans when treated kindly.  So maybe deep down somewhere the Europeans are to blame for the mass murder and other evils done to the Native Americans!  Just because the Spanish did it doens't make it right.  Just because Sally or Bob are jumping off bridges doesn't mean I have to go jump off a bridge as well.  The excuse that it's the norm is not a good excuse.  It was wrong. 

Play fair? Did you ever study European history it was founded and built on war and created the greatest Empires for many centuries. It even hurled back the real threat by the Muslims of the great expansion and they were a far more civilized people in many respects and far more accepting of the differences of faith, Saladin proved that point. I assume its the one great strength of Anglo Culture for all our faults we tend to be greedy, egotistical and ambitious and from Alexander the Great to I'll argue to Germany in the Mazi regime is proof of that. What other people had more great Empires?

Is that right? It was survival of the fittest and the stronger and more aggressive won that is the way of history. That even used to carry to business and commerce where our lust for power led us into non-warfare until the US government became a bunch of wimps and banned monopolies and regulating our commerce too much.




Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2008, 11:53:43 AM »
Play fair? Did you ever study European history it was founded and built on war and created the greatest Empires for many centuries. It even hurled back the real threat by the Muslims of the great expansion and they were a far more civilized people in many respects and far more accepting of the differences of faith, Saladin proved that point. I assume its the one great strength of Anglo Culture for all our faults we tend to be greedy, egotistical and ambitious and from Alexander the Great to I'll argue to Germany in the Mazi regime is proof of that. What other people had more great Empires?

Is that right? It was survival of the fittest and the stronger and more aggressive won that is the way of history. That even used to carry to business and commerce where our lust for power led us into non-warfare until the US government became a bunch of wimps and banned monopolies and regulating our commerce too much.





Yes, I have studied Eruopean history and I have come to the conclusion that humans are evil.  They are like a plague or disease and the only was to help my human problem is to try to be a good human and not be such an evil bastard.  Herds of buffalo do not attack other herds of buffalo just because they want to expand.  It is not survival of the fittest. . .it's just plain wrong. 

Offline Paradox

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2008, 12:04:00 PM »
If it wasn't for "evil humans" and our advances in civilizations, you wouldn't be online right now. You probably wouldn't enjoy any of the modern luxuries you currently do. If many of those wars had not been fought, America as we know it would not exist at all. We are an amalgamation of myriad cultures-- Roman, Greek, numerous European ones-- we took the best of their ideas and distilled them down to their purest form, then incorporated them into our culture. Just go to Washington DC for proof. Both the architecture and the legal documentation that founded this country is steeped in ideas from cultures and eras that were extremely bloody, yet those societies rose above the bloodshed to accomplish something greater for mankind. Those Empires had to be strong to deflect the advances of countless outsiders bombarding their borders. Had things gone differently, we could be living in a Caliphate, or a Dictatorship, or who knows what else.

Offline RubySlippers

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2008, 12:07:24 PM »
Humans are not evil we are just part of nature just like the wolf and the shark, its just our motivations and place as the dominant species makes our effects on the world different.

I should note many animals such as lions will kill each other over territory and food when on pride shows weakeness. I saw this on a PBS program so it happens.

Would you blame a bear for killing a deer, same principles we wanted the land and took it with not sufficent opposition to be a problem. When another nation or empire can mount a defense such as the USSR during the Cold War basic suvival will kick in. We couldn't fight them openly or they us or well we would likely nuke each other silly so we has a cold and tempered dislike that fought through third party nations. But the Native Americans were no match for the invasion of the Europeans and fell, they could have assimilated and adapted to the newcomers culture.

And lets be blunt we enter space and meet aliens that are technologcally inferior on choice land and resources we need I can see the same thing happening again.

Offline Mathim

Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2008, 12:09:33 PM »
I think the question was stupid to ask in the first place. If we could have lived side by side we would have.

Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2008, 12:17:49 PM »
Human advances could have been made by working together as well.  I can understand attacking someone if you are in danger but not just because you are greedy and want what they have.  We teach our children to share their toys and yet as adults we can't seem to mirror this sharing that we teach our children.  We can't share without fighting and it seems we can't fight without killing!  How many more great accomplishments could we have possibly made had we not killed the person who might have accomplished them?  

I do not see anything wrong with killing to protect yourself or to eat but I do see something wrong with killing over greed.  You say that humans are dominant and you reference lions killing over territory.  So you say that since we do exactly what the animals do just on a larger scale we are the dominant species?  I do not think we are the dominant species, I think we're full of ourselves and that only helps to fuel our greed.  

The Cherokee people assimilated the best they could, they were just like the white man in every way except for their skin color.  They couldn't change it so they were forced from their land.  Assimilation obviously wasn't the answer.  If everybody assimilated there wouldn't be much of a culture.  


Offline ShrowdedPoetTopic starter

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Re: I don't really know what to title this. . .People don't think maybe. . .
« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2008, 12:19:15 PM »
I think the question was stupid to ask in the first place. If we could have lived side by side we would have.

That's utter bull.  I can live side by side with my older sister.  I CAN do it.  But we don't get along and she completely irritates the hell out of me so I choose not to.  Just because someone chooses not to live side by side does not mean that it is impossible to do so.  Do not call something stupid unless you're able to defend your allegations of stupidity.