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Author Topic: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?  (Read 387 times)

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Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« on: October 22, 2014, 06:16:21 PM »
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29607675
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29603496

http://www.worldmag.com/2014/10/conservative_catholics_dissatisfied_with_final_synod_report

Is this as big a deal as I think it might be? The remarks Francis made last year were explicitly not official Papal decrees, just his opinions, and he's wavered back and forth quite a bit over his papal and pre-papal history. But this isn't just one isolated release from the Vatican press office, it's the spokesman for a full synod. Waffling nonsense about 'hate the sin and love the sinner' aside (which I can't see changing in at least another generation or two), is this a signal of actual progress for the RCC?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 06:17:48 PM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Caehlim

Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 06:44:59 PM »
I suppose given their history of persecution, torture, exclusion and cruelty towards GLBTQ individuals and with the benefit of lowered expectations we can describe them vaguely contemplating in an insulting fashion that they may possibly be willing at some point in the future to maybe reconsider their approach as being almost a sign of progress.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 04:48:31 AM »

I think its more about herding more followers and "not losing the PR battle" than it is about being moral or doing the right thing.

Right now, the Catholic church is looking somewhat bigoted with regard to their sexual discrimination against "non-straight" folks as people become more and more accepting of other sexualities. The world is moving ahead while they are left behind.  They are losing their flock and are willing to lie a little bit to get back some more followers HOWEVER, they are not willing to make any significant changes to their doctrine. 

Offline Kythia

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Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 06:41:29 AM »
They are losing their flock

Do you have a citation for this?  I was vaguely under the impression the Catholic Church was growing and the most recent stats I can find seem to support this.

Sorry for derailing, just curious.

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Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 08:07:26 AM »
From what I understand they're gaining members in the likes of South America and Africa, but losing them in Europe and the US.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 10:52:27 AM »
I would say it is a sign of actual progress, as just considering these questions is a major change for a church that seemed firmly set in stone on these matters and seemed unwilling to even consider maybe, possibly changing its position. I am under the impression that the RC church usually goes as well together with change as a fish does with a bicycle. Given that, we are looking at something of an improvement for sure. If something ever comes of it we will just have to wait and see, and as slowly as the church's mills sometimes grind we might have to hold our breath for a long time, but it is a start in the right direction.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2014, 04:37:36 PM »
Do you have a citation for this?  I was vaguely under the impression the Catholic Church was growing and the most recent stats I can find seem to support this.

From what I can see, their numbers are growing, however as a percentage of the world population they're dropping. Their presence over the last century has undergone a large decrease in Europe, small increase in the U.S. and a large increase in Latin America and subsaharan Africa.

Offline TaintedAndDelish

Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2014, 05:25:32 PM »
Do you have a citation for this?  I was vaguely under the impression the Catholic Church was growing and the most recent stats I can find seem to support this.

Sorry for derailing, just curious.

Not a problem. I should have backed that up. Anyway, the numbers below are rather interesting and seem to prove me wrong. If I interpreted this correctly, the number of members has grown but remains at about %17 of the population - so its fairly flat. Clergy on the other hand, has decreased over time.

http://cara.georgetown.edu/caraservices/requestedchurchstats.html

- actually, regarding clergy, it looks the decrease in priests is mostly offset by an increase in deacons. Deacons may marry if they do so prior to ordination, but not afterwards. Priests must be celibate and hold higher functions.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2014, 05:36:31 PM by TaintedAndDelish »

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Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2014, 07:09:13 PM »
That's actually getting to be quite an issue here. It's been reported a few times that the average priests age in Ireland is .. over 60, IIRC. They're getting very few new people entering, and the older ones are dying off or reaching the point where they can't perform their duties anymore. They're having to cut the numbers of services, and consolidate the ones they have. It will be interesting to see what happens if this trend continues. There was talk of importing priests from other countries, but I've no idea if that will go ahead or not.

Offline Cassandra LeMay

Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014, 01:26:32 AM »
The Independent has a rather interesting piece on the synod by Paul Vallely, a man I believe knows a few things about the workings of the church. Let me quote two parts I found rather noteworthy:

Quote
... a growing number of reform-minded bishops voted against the final text because it was too conservative rather than too liberal.

Quote
Then, at the opening of the Synod, the Pope binned the approach of previous popes which discouraged debate, silenced theologians and suppressed dissent. Instead he announced he wanted a strong and vigorous debate. People should listen with humility but speak with clarity and boldness. There was to be no self-censorship by cardinals who feared their views might upset the Pope. This stood in stark contrast to previous synods where Vatican officials went round privately telling participants not to mention certain subjects.

I find the last sentence of the second quote rather interesting, as it shows me that we simply don't know enough about the inner workings of the Vatican to form a complete picture of what is going on in Rome and how much of a change is actually unfolding. It's easy enough to think of the current debate in the church as "too little, too late", but perhaps what is going on behind closed doors in the Vatican is bigger than an outside observer can perceive.

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Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 10:41:51 PM »
Well, it took them exactly five hundred years to admit error when it came to Galileo's discoveries, so I'd say compared to that, the Pope is moving at the pace of greased lightning.

Offline TheGlyphstoneTopic starter

Re: Catholic official stance on GLBTQ changing?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2014, 11:22:51 PM »
Interestingly enough, Galileo is a more apt example than you might think at first - like this situation, his trial and house arrest were a murky blend of religious doctrine and practical politics. It wasn't just that he was publishing and advocating heliocentric doctrine, but the strawman in his book representing geocentric believers - named Simplicimo - directly quoted the current Pope in a few arguments, thus indirectly making the Pope (who could, in the 17th century, order your head chopped off) look like an idiot. (also, it was 300ish years, not 500, and they stopped enforcing the ban centuries before JP2 owned up to them being wrong, but that's not relevant to the topic.)

The parallel here, in this case, is the recognition that the world and their own constituency are changing against traditional doctrine, clashing against the internal political workings of the church. The initial statement was revoked to keep the conservative bishops happy, with some liberal bishops thinking even the original draft was too conservative. There was a mention in-article about this synod being 'open', compared to previous ones were entire topics were quietly declared verboten. The RCC may not be a literal nation-state anymore (well, the Vatican is legally, but meh), but it still has incredible wealth and tremendous influence all over the Western world, particularly in South America and parts of Europe. Changing too rapidly or too radically would threaten the secular influence the Church by alienating their base, which ends up being factored in to the whole equation.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 11:30:43 PM by TheGlyphstone »