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Author Topic: Gamergate  (Read 4519 times)

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Offline Kushiel

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #125 on: November 01, 2014, 04:04:40 PM »
Did he strip naked in every fight? No not at all. That is a unique ludonarrative element to Bayonetta that does tie in to sexism if you want to make the argument that it is entirely for a male(or lesbian or bisexual) audience's titillation. Did the camera zoom in on his ass and pecs multiple time in every cut scene? Yes. It made a point of showing off Dante's assets just as most games show off the physique of the PC. Even Halo did this and Master Chief was clad head to toe in power armor and never removed his helmet.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Powerful characters are meant to be idolized versions of the norm and that is often portrayed in a sexual manner in media. The spectator of any media desires to look at the screen and derive visual pleasure from what he or she sees. Part of that pleasure is also derived from the narcissistic identification she or he feels with the person on the screen. But there is more; the spectator also has the illusion of controlling that image. This has been a common psychological theory in cinema for decades. Now suddenly it is being wielded like a club in video game critics.  Is there a reason that Dante should be wearing tight pants and a tight tank top? No. That is just what his creators dressed him in.

Is there anything "wrong" with any of this? Nope. Just what some have chosen to take offense to.

 Here is a powerful female character that has deliberately provocative sexuality shown to the world and what is the consensus with a few critics? Nope she is a bad character because teenage boys might rub one off thinking of her.

I have several points to raise to this.

First:
Quote
Powerful characters are meant to be idolized versions of the norm and that is often portrayed in a sexual manner in media.

Badass powerful characters are sexy!

Who wouldn't want to kiss this face?
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


Guess what those beads are for!
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide


Let's be honest here. The only powerful video game characters that are often (read always) portrayed in a sexual manner are female characters
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide




Second:
Quote
Is there anything "wrong" with any of this? Nope. Just what some have chosen to take offense to.

Chosen to take offense to? That logic is horseshit. (Don't choose to take offense to that last comment)
You seem to be missing the point of the critique. Nobody thinks that they can change a game that has already been released. It's perfectly reasonable however to make it known that you want more or less of something in future games. People need characters to identify with, and not everybody is a white heterosexual cis male. It's not unreasonable for people to want the only characters they can identify with to actually be how they want them, and not how another social group wants them. I've had more than enough characters to identify with, it's really time to give somebody else a chance because let's be fair; we don't need MORE badass womanising muscleheads slaying the world with a pelvic thrust to avenge his dead girlfriend/sister/mother. Seriously, we've had enough. Let's try playing an intersex genius inventor who solves problems with non-violent inventions. Get some new fucking perspective.

Third:
Quote
Nope she is a bad character because teenage boys might rub one off thinking of her.

Who is a bad character? I've actually never seen anybody argue that a sexualised female character is a "bad" character. It's argued that female characters should be sexualised less. That they should have more personality and character development to make them more than sex objects to ogle while you sit through plot dialogue.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Bad character? No. Neglected character? Very yes.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 04:10:48 PM by Kushiel »

Offline Skynet

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #126 on: November 01, 2014, 05:36:35 PM »
No, I wouldn't agree with it at all.

She came in talking about how terrible games are to women, and saying how she's been a gamer all her life and how she's seen this first hand since forever. Yet before Kickstarter she was giving speeches in her classes about how she doesn't play games because they're icky and involve shooting people.

Because people change their opinions over time?  Or be critical of popular elements within games while also playing those games without falling into the black-white "diehard fanboy/hater" category?

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She's a liar. She's a crook. She's a cheat. She also has nothing to do with GamerGate or ethics in journalism, but she hopped on the bandwagon the moment something started taking focus away from her Professional Victimhood.

She only "hopped on it" when GamerGate supporters and long-time haters with an axe to grind against "Feminazis and Cultural Marxists" sent her death threats (several of which the FBI regarded as credible).
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 05:38:57 PM by Skynet »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #127 on: November 01, 2014, 06:18:51 PM »
I don't see why having a female character who is a criminal would be such a bad move. Women are people, after all, and they can be law-abiding, crooks, good, or evil. They did it in Saints Row, and nobody complained.

That's not what was said though.  They wanted a 'positive female lead' in GTA, because all the other ones were stupid/selfish/criminal.  Which is the whole point of a GTA game, you're not going against nice people, everyone's annoying in some way otherwise, some people might balk at the idea at actually commiting crimes against them because they can't justify doing it to these characters if they WERE nice (yes, this is a generalization, but for the most part, we take great joy in perpetrating crimes against those we think 'deserve' it.)

Oh wow. You're tired of this? Really? Let me tell you what I'm tired of. I'm tired of games where I have nobody to identify with. I'm tired of games where instead of the hero, I'm the love interest who either dies to give the actual hero a motivation, or gets handed to him as a consolation prize in the end. I'm tired of games where the only reflection of my self is a scantily-clad, posing woman who's just there as masturbation fodder. And God, I'm so damn glad for this turning point that you mention, when games stopped catering to A SINGLE DEMOGRAPHIC and started expanding. Things are still far from perfect, though.

Identify with?  I've been into video games since at least 1981, before the Crash of '84, and let me tell you, I've yet to identify with ANY character in ANY video game, male or female.  Not Mario, not Link or Zelda, not Kratos, Nathan Drake, Lara Croft, not Raziel nor Kain nor any multitude grunting, grimacing, one dimensional space marine neandrethal archetype we get foisted on.  The only reason gaming is catering to us, is because WE were the LOSERS.  The one's no one wanted in High School, not the popular kids.  Back in the 80's and 90's, you never had a choice to be in the Geek group, that's where all the other kids ostracized you to.  So Geeks, like all human beings do, banded together.  And gaming companies see that, and exploited that.

But that has nothing to do with being able to identify with a character.  I love the Arkham series of video games, for example, but I don't identify with Bruce Wayne or Batman in any way.  In fact, anyone who can should have their heads examined because something is wrong with them.  So being able to 'identify' is a dream that only certain minorities apparently might have access to.  Like this little article from Kotaku:

http://kotaku.com/what-sleeping-dogs-gets-so-right-about-being-an-asian-a-1644011008

That's nice that he got to experience a connection of that sort (which by the way, the team is made up mostly of Caucasians, and yet, according to him, they nailed the feeling of being a Chinese American going to Hong Kong.  Strange that) but us 'white males' don't get that, because we're GENERIC.  When you make a game that's SPECIFIC, I've noticed that you get a lot better story out of it.  Which kinda sucks, because frankly, it's a magical moment that most of us reviled White Males will likely never get to experience.

Off topic:  A lot of people bemoan the lack of 'Female' protagonists in games, and frankly, I think that lack is a good thing.  Because when we do have a female protagonist, it's invariable made better, because it's held to a higher scrutiny.  Male protagonists are a dime a dozen, and for ever good, well written male, we get hundreds if not thousands of crappy Doom 1 Marine clones.  Where as with the ladies, I can think of a few 'bad' ones, but most of the others are good ones.  Not so for us guys.

I don't have that luxury. I don't get to "not care" because when I see sexism in games, it fucking hurts my soul.
  Then maybe gaming is not for you.  Gaming has ALWAYS been for fun, and if it truly hurts you, then maybe you should find something else that won't.  And frankly, having to look for sexism or diversity in the medium is a waste of time that could be better spent enjoying something you love.

You know, that's another issue.  We have this subsection of the internet devoted to this battle cry of 'DIVERSITY!', but never have I ever seen any single one of them actually sit down and tell anyone what they want, specifically.  And any time someone tries, they get the impression that it will NEVER be enough.  It's a lot like the Internet Feminist Movement, it's all shouting and screaming about how women have been victims and there must be reparations made, but no one seems to know what needs to be done.  And frankly, I want to know.

What needs to be done so that people are happy.  What would you like to see.  And I want a definite answer here.  Something someone can build and build on.  Otherwise, to me, you're no better than those who scream to get attention.

Offline Ebb

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #128 on: November 01, 2014, 07:24:01 PM »
... The only reason gaming is catering to us, is because WE were the LOSERS.  The one's no one wanted in High School, not the popular kids. 

... but us 'white males' don't get that, because we're GENERIC. 

As a gamer who happens to be both white and male, I'm begging you to stop speaking as if you're representative of anyone except yourself.


Offline Melusine

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #129 on: November 01, 2014, 07:28:49 PM »
That's not what was said though.  They wanted a 'positive female lead' in GTA, because all the other ones were stupid/selfish/criminal.  Which is the whole point of a GTA game, you're not going against nice people, everyone's annoying in some way otherwise, some people might balk at the idea at actually commiting crimes against them because they can't justify doing it to these characters if they WERE nice (yes, this is a generalization, but for the most part, we take great joy in perpetrating crimes against those we think 'deserve' it.)

If they said that, it's utter bullshit. The game is about criminals. If they introduce a female PC, she should be a criminal too.

Identify with?  I've been into video games since at least 1981, before the Crash of '84, and let me tell you, I've yet to identify with ANY character in ANY video game, male or female.  Not Mario, not Link or Zelda, not Kratos, Nathan Drake, Lara Croft, not Raziel nor Kain nor any multitude grunting, grimacing, one dimensional space marine neandrethal archetype we get foisted on.  The only reason gaming is catering to us, is because WE were the LOSERS.  The one's no one wanted in High School, not the popular kids.  Back in the 80's and 90's, you never had a choice to be in the Geek group, that's where all the other kids ostracized you to.  So Geeks, like all human beings do, banded together.  And gaming companies see that, and exploited that.

I find this very unusual. Every gamer I've talked to before identifies with the PCs in the games they play.

But that has nothing to do with being able to identify with a character.  I love the Arkham series of video games, for example, but I don't identify with Bruce Wayne or Batman in any way.  In fact, anyone who can should have their heads examined because something is wrong with them.  So being able to 'identify' is a dream that only certain minorities apparently might have access to.  Like this little article from Kotaku:

http://kotaku.com/what-sleeping-dogs-gets-so-right-about-being-an-asian-a-1644011008

That's nice that he got to experience a connection of that sort (which by the way, the team is made up mostly of Caucasians, and yet, according to him, they nailed the feeling of being a Chinese American going to Hong Kong.  Strange that) but us 'white males' don't get that, because we're GENERIC.  When you make a game that's SPECIFIC, I've noticed that you get a lot better story out of it.  Which kinda sucks, because frankly, it's a magical moment that most of us reviled White Males will likely never get to experience.

It's not impossible to write about other genders, or races, or sexualities, if you do your research well and keep an open mind. I don't find it strange that the team of Caucasians were able to replicate the chinese american experience. I think it's very commendable. What do you mean white males don't get that? There are tons of games centered around white men. If you think your own culture is generic, it's because you've been living in it all your life. So, different cultures will seem more interesting to you.

If you mean that it's white men who are generic, there's a much more apt to describe it: they're the default. Which means, they're not defined by anything. While any other race/sexuality/gender carry assumptions. Women are emotional. Black people are violent. Gays are promiscuous. White men are just human, with no other assumptions.

Off topic:  A lot of people bemoan the lack of 'Female' protagonists in games, and frankly, I think that lack is a good thing.  Because when we do have a female protagonist, it's invariable made better, because it's held to a higher scrutiny.  Male protagonists are a dime a dozen, and for ever good, well written male, we get hundreds if not thousands of crappy Doom 1 Marine clones.  Where as with the ladies, I can think of a few 'bad' ones, but most of the others are good ones.  Not so for us guys.

And don't you think that we should try to push for more developed male characters, as well? You were the one saying video games aren't art, but character development is essential in fiction (which is art).

Then maybe gaming is not for you.  Gaming has ALWAYS been for fun, and if it truly hurts you, then maybe you should find something else that won't.  And frankly, having to look for sexism or diversity in the medium is a waste of time that could be better spent enjoying something you love.

So according to you, if something is sexist I should stop interacting with it. Very well, give me my jetpack so I can fly into the sun, because there's not a chance of escaping sexism in this planet. Also, I don't have to look for sexism. It's right there, staring at me in the face. Implying that I'm some sort of lunatic who enjoys complaining of non-existent struggles is insulting. And I do love the medium, that's why I want it to improve.

You know, that's another issue.  We have this subsection of the internet devoted to this battle cry of 'DIVERSITY!', but never have I ever seen any single one of them actually sit down and tell anyone what they want, specifically.  And any time someone tries, they get the impression that it will NEVER be enough.  It's a lot like the Internet Feminist Movement, it's all shouting and screaming about how women have been victims and there must be reparations made, but no one seems to know what needs to be done.  And frankly, I want to know.

What needs to be done so that people are happy.  What would you like to see.  And I want a definite answer here.  Something someone can build and build on.  Otherwise, to me, you're no better than those who scream to get attention.

1) I want more female protagonists. I want women who are scumbags and savage monsters. I want muscular, ripped women akin to Kratos. I want old women. I want more women like Aveline de Grandpre, like Amanda Ripley, like April Ryan, like Chell, like Clementine, like Jade.

2) I want more gay and bisexual protagonists. I want more same-sex love interests where there are love interests to be found.

3) I want more protagonists of color. I want more female protagonists of color.

4) I want more transgendered protagonists.

5) I want fewer female love-interests that are killed to advance the plot and give the male hero motivation. I want more love-interests that are fully fleshed and developed. I want more female love-interests that do their own thing and are just as awesome as the hero.

6) I want more diverse personalities in male heroes. I want more shy and sweet scientists. More happy-go-lucky cuties that brighten everyone's day. More emotional, sensitive guys.

7) I want more female villains, who are even scarcer than female protagonists. More women like GLaDOS, like SHODAN, like Alma Wade, like Amanda Evert, like Dahlia Hawthorne. I want sympathetic villains that you can't help but feel for, I want absolute monsters that scare you, that you can't wait to end.

8) I don't want any more overt misogyny played for laughs, Duke Nukem Forever style.

All these would make me pretty happy, and they're really not difficult to accomplish.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #130 on: November 01, 2014, 07:40:07 PM »
What needs to be done so that people are happy.  What would you like to see.  And I want a definite answer here.  Something someone can build and build on.

Well that's a ridiculous question, did we start taking hostages and you need our demands?

What resolution computer monitor will be enough for the rest of time? How many gigs of RAM does a computer need? What about video RAM? These things are currently being improved, continuously, with very little need for anyone to make a fuss. Imagine if getting these improvements required you to make constant complaints, don't you think you would start doing so?

Honestly, I'm actually quite happy with the current degree of progress being made on minority issues, it's slow but it's vaguely getting there. If it could be achieved without needing the complaints that offend you so badly, then yeah I'd be happy to just sit back and enjoy.

Back in the 80's and 90's, you never had a choice to be in the Geek group, that's where all the other kids ostracized you to.

Would you like to see the portrayal of geeks and nerds remain fixed at the 1980/90s level? An endless parade of Steve Urkels defining how other people should perceive you?

Take a look at Bernard Benouli in maniac mansion or day of the tentacle (not a brilliant example, because those games were deconstructions of the cliques in media at the time but honestly video games have never been too terribly unkind to nerds for obvious reasons so it's hard to find examples) and compare that to how a computer savvy, technically literate character is treated in Watchdogs.

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which by the way, the team is made up mostly of Caucasians, and yet, according to him, they nailed the feeling of being a Chinese American going to Hong Kong.  Strange that

Howso strange? I haven't played that game, but it sounds like they're good writers who used a little imagination to present a realistic depiction of someone else's experience. Unless you're into autobiographies that's what creative writing is all about.

Honestly if people couldn't manage this, then there would be no point in complaining and wanting better representation since it would be largely impossible.

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Which kinda sucks, because frankly, it's a magical moment that most of us reviled White Males will likely never get to experience.

As someone who can pass for the majority anytime he would like, simply by lying to everyone continuously and hiding aspects of my personal identity (which is FUN yay me!), you're not that reviled.

I know the experience of being told "you're a white male, you don't get it" and yeah it does suck. It's frustrating to see movies depict white people as 'lacking culture' compared to the vibrant cultures of other groups. It's annoying to be told that these problems don't exist.

Well, I'll admit that it does happen, but honestly as someone who gets to see both sides of the fence, you're getting off lightly. If your experience is enough for you to be ranting about it on here... just try to use your imagination for a second and picture how frustrating the more extreme experiences of others might be. Then you'll understand why you're seeing rants on these issues.

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Then maybe gaming is not for you.

It's not sadly. Continuously, every day I have reminders that practically nothing was built with me in mind. I have to make do with entertainment and media that was built for someone else.

Quote
Gaming has ALWAYS been for fun, and if it truly hurts you, then maybe you should find something else that won't.

Gee that would be nice. I was kind of hoping that after a day of dealing with this sort of bullshit I could relax with a video game, but that's just a reminder that I'm not welcome too.

Offline Caehlim

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #131 on: November 01, 2014, 07:54:09 PM »
1) I want more female protagonists. I want women who are scumbags and savage monsters. I want muscular, ripped women akin to Kratos. I want old women. I want more women like Aveline de Grandpre, like Amanda Ripley, like April Ryan, like Chell, like Clementine, like Jade.

2) I want more gay and bisexual protagonists. I want more same-sex love interests where there are love interests to be found.

3) I want more protagonists of color. I want more female protagonists of color.

4) I want more transgendered protagonists.

5) I want fewer female love-interests that are killed to advance the plot and give the male hero motivation. I want more love-interests that are fully fleshed and developed. I want more female love-interests that do their own thing and are just as awesome as the hero.

6) I want more diverse personalities in male heroes. I want more shy and sweet scientists. More happy-go-lucky cuties that brighten everyone's day. More emotional, sensitive guys.

7) I want more female villains, who are even scarcer than female protagonists. More women like GLaDOS, like SHODAN, like Alma Wade, like Amanda Evert, like Dahlia Hawthorne. I want sympathetic villains that you can't help but feel for, I want absolute monsters that scare you, that you can't wait to end.

8) I don't want any more overt misogyny played for laughs, Duke Nukem Forever style.

Yes please. That would be lovely.

Offline Melusine

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #132 on: November 01, 2014, 08:17:55 PM »
And two more I forgot and I think should be added:

9) I want more disabled protagonists. (Does Adam Jensen count?)

10) I want more mentally ill protagonists, with their mental illness portrayed with realism and dignity.

Offline Kathadon

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #133 on: November 01, 2014, 10:41:27 PM »
I have several points to raise to this.

Well I see lots of "points", but no actual arguments. Let us be honest here you choose a majority of fighting game protagonists one of the biggest offenders with overly powerful and idolized representations of both men and women with the widest rosters out there that lets the player choose  alternate character designs and bloody costumes as your points? Really? And Street Fighter too? One of the games that has one of the most diverse rosters when it comes to racial groups.

How about you know this outfit for Cammy?
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Or maybe we can have the really fat guy in case someone wants that?
Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Add to that your examples are one alternate costume for Samus and a close up of Kratos and you leave out these?

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

See here is the problem you are supposed to be fighting for DIVERSITY and INCLUSIVITY in gaming right? And then you try and make points with one of the most diverse and inclusive genres for character backgrounds, sex, and races. The fighting game where the player picks from a roster of characters. Important part of that sentence is the roster. There is a lot of choice in those games for every need. Are some characters overly sexualised in fighting games? Yeah. In fact it can be argued EVERY character in fighting games is a hyper idealized version of someone's wet dream that exists only to pummel their opponents into the dirt, from Zangief to Dhalsim.

Chosen to take offense to? That logic is horseshit. (Don't choose to take offense to that last comment)
You seem to be missing the point of the critique. Nobody thinks that they can change a game that has already been released. It's perfectly reasonable however to make it known that you want more or less of something in future games. People need characters to identify with, and not everybody is a white heterosexual cis male. It's not unreasonable for people to want the only characters they can identify with to actually be how they want them, and not how another social group wants them. I've had more than enough characters to identify with, it's really time to give somebody else a chance because let's be fair; we don't need MORE badass womanising muscleheads slaying the world with a pelvic thrust to avenge his dead girlfriend/sister/mother. Seriously, we've had enough. Let's try playing an intersex genius inventor who solves problems with non-violent inventions. Get some new fucking perspective.

Hey look some kind of argument there. A strawman and deflection, but I guess it is an argument. So lets take it apart and see what we have here.

"Nobody thinks you can change a game that has already been released". Well duh. The point of a review is to tell me as a consumer if I might like a game enough to buy it. A review is not for the critic to tell me  they did not like a game for reasons that is an op-ed. Objectivity towards the audience versus subjectivity toward the medium. I have watched as whatever this is has blathered on from both sides of this debate missing this point entirely. There can be no objective review of a game. There can be an objective view or tone toward the audience in a review. Example: "I find the overt sexualization of the characters in this game troubling. Here are my short reasons (preferably without snark or hyperbole). Here is why you, Mr. Gamer, might like it anyway."

"It is perfectly reasonable to let someone know you want more of less of something in the future." Okay and? In a review? Or an op-ed? Clarity please.

" It's not unreasonable for people to want the only characters they can identify with to actually be how they want them, and not how another social group wants them." Who chooses the criteria for this monumental assignment? Who gets to make that call? DO some women like Bayonetta just the way she is? Do they not count? Who makes someone the politically correct watchmen? Should every developer make a straw poll? You have a sentiment, but no plan or criteria for what makes a player identify with some character. So yeah.... good luck with that.

And finally since most folks in both sides of this debate do not seem to grasp it. AAA already knows who they are making these games for. They have extensive research from their marketing departments on who buys what in what genre. That is why Elizabeth was pushed to the back cover of Bioshock Infinite. The developers even argued it, but the marketers won because their research trumped artist expression and political correctness. This is why the whole Gamergate thing is ridiculous. The marketing teams for these games know what is a nice safe bet to recoup their costs.

This is why those of us pounding the table for diversity are in the tougher jam. Marketeers have some numbers on Gamergate and they are massive, vocal, intractable, and only represent a minor population of the more hardcore set that frequents the game enthusiast sites. Conservative estimates place them at tens of thousands of gamers. They also have some numbers on those that want more diversity faster and for triple AAA to take risks with alternate characters. They have for years and even with outside non-gamers helping, even mainstream media blasting them, and bloody Stephen Colbert taking the piss out of everyone all attempts to grass roots out shout the Gaters have failed, within days.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 10:45:13 PM by Kathadon »

Offline Slywyn

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #134 on: November 01, 2014, 11:49:16 PM »
""Bananetta is strobg female game woman you ladies should be greatful because she is for you and not at all about being sexy for dudes you are stupid harpy witch to suggest otherwise" they say

Turn on game and receive immediate slow, loving pan over Bananetta vagina.

Look I donít really have a problem with Bayonetta but donít try to pretend she isnít goofy cheesecakey male gaze. This is like if God of War kept freezing the action to follow droplets of glittering ball sweat running down Kratosí legs."

Yeah. no, sorry. Bayonetta is not a 'strong female character meant for females'.

Offline Kathadon

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #135 on: November 02, 2014, 12:57:53 AM »
""Bananetta is strobg female game woman you ladies should be greatful because she is for you and not at all about being sexy for dudes you are stupid harpy witch to suggest otherwise" they say

Turn on game and receive immediate slow, loving pan over Bananetta vagina.

Look I donít really have a problem with Bayonetta but donít try to pretend she isnít goofy cheesecakey male gaze. This is like if God of War kept freezing the action to follow droplets of glittering ball sweat running down Kratosí legs."

Yeah. no, sorry. Bayonetta is not a 'strong female character meant for females'.

You mean her crotch right because I doubt Nintendo allows for vagina. Also again the gaze technique in cinema and now video game cutscenes has a purpose outside of male (lesbian, Bi-sexual) titillation. The spectator of any media desires to look at the screen and derive visual pleasure from what he or she sees. Part of that pleasure is also derived from the narcissistic identification she or he feels with the person on the screen. But there is more; the spectator also has the illusion of controlling that image. This has been a common psychological theory in cinema for decades. The gaze technique has no gender bias inherent to its use. There is no male gaze or female gaze it is just the gaze technique. We actually see it used most often in commercials as the camera lovingly pans across the curves of a sports car or food piping hot and ready to eat. It is designed cinematically to mimic the human gaze after all.

Ignoring the odd ad hominem in the first sentence and the reference to Kratos's ball sweat (Really who finds that attractive?) how is an empowered female protagonist with an provocative sexuality mean she is not meant to pander to both halves of the audience? SHould the developer just leave all the male audience's desires at the door? Should the developer instead try for an entirely female point of view in every way in the action game genre? How are you defining that she is not meant as a strong female character for women?

I'll leave you with the same questions I left Kushiel also:DO some women like Bayonetta just the way she is? Do they not count? Who makes someone the politically correct watchmen? Should every developer make a straw poll? You have a sentiment, but no plan or criteria for what makes a player identify with some character. So yeah.... good luck with that.

And finally something to think about when approaching criticism of a subjective medium. You can have an opinion, and say, "I do not think Bayonetta is a strong female character for women." And then we can have a discussion on why you think that. But your last sentence was simply a definite statement, "Bayonetta is not a strong female character meant for females." That leaves the burden of proof entirely on you and often gets people's back up, including females that might think otherwise. Just a bit of food for thought with some of the current flame wars these topics tend to elicit.



 


Offline Shjade

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #136 on: November 02, 2014, 02:21:04 AM »
Did the camera zoom in on his ass and pecs multiple time in every cut scene? Yes.

I decided not to take your word for it on this.

I didn't watch the entire 90 minutes, but you know what I saw most while skipping around this video?

Face shots and far-away full body shots. Also, a guy wearing a trenchcoat that in no way allowed for close-up shots of his ass even if the camera wanted to go there. No zoomed-in crotch shots while he flails his legs around. No gratuitous flexing or posing to show off his body for no apparent reason in combat or while just having a conversation with other characters. There's a pretty ridiculous early scene where he's flying through the air naked with various silly object-blocks of his crotch while he gets dressed, that's about it unless I missed some other glaring exception; the majority of scenes were nothing of the sort.

In other words, as far as I can tell: you're lying to me. This does not bode well.

Offline Kathadon

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #137 on: November 02, 2014, 04:14:52 AM »
There are a lot of Devil May Cry games. Try number 3 with the white hair when he mainly just wears the trench coat without a shirt underneath and hip hugging jeans. I remember a nice ass shot when he dropped onto his bike that made my SO take notice while I was playing it. She loved that white hair Dante, and was pissed when they remade the character to the black hair one.

In every movement that trench coat flips up and guess what that shows? His ass in tight jeans or he poses for a second after doing a little uppercut showing his physique. Shocker. Maybe that is why they had him wear tight pants in all the games and a beat up grey tank after the redesign in the latest one? Why they bothered giving him back an undershirt at all is beyond me. So yeah it is likely meant to be a sexy male power fantasy in my opinion, because if not we could just have had another Kratos or War from Darksiders and get the exact same action combat gameplay. Right? Just like Bayonetta is meant to be a sexy female power fantasy and still appeal to the male audience. That requires sexual stuff go figure.

And does the scene where he flies through the air naked in the black hair one just not count now? Oh look it is funny because the random objects block his penis. Bayonetta's hair blocks you from seeing her naughty bits too you know? And no game will have zoomed in crotch shots of a male, not yet anyway. Even in Metal Gear when the guy was completely naked he managed to cover his junk doing flips.

Bayonetta is a female character that uses her sex as a weapon, not in a deceptive way, but in a direct in your face way. The character is damn near as close as a dominatrix as could be portrayed in a video game, and still clear that M rating. Are the camera angles in Bayonetta more exhibisionist? Yep. Because that is the point in the hyper sexual kinky character that is comfortable with her own sex enough to use it in the middle of a fight and bloody enjoys it. Hell her finishing move is called a Climax, you know the common slang for the female orgasim.

Which is a good thing in my opinion. Room for Bayonetta, room for Dante, and room for Kratos and War. Diversity in characters and designs in the same boring genre. Gotta love it.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 04:25:14 AM by Kathadon »

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #138 on: November 02, 2014, 04:34:08 AM »
If they said that, it's utter bullshit. The game is about criminals. If they introduce a female PC, she should be a criminal too.

That's not what they SAID.  They WANTED A POSITIVE FEMALE LEAD IN A GTA GAME!  This is what they said.  Of course, it's unusual, it's the nature of the argument!  It didn't make sense in the Polygon review of GTA5!  It still doesn't make sense NOW!

1) I want more female protagonists. I want women who are scumbags and savage monsters. I want muscular, ripped women akin to Kratos. I want old women. I want more women like Aveline de Grandpre, like Amanda Ripley, like April Ryan, like Chell, like Clementine, like Jade.

2) I want more gay and bisexual protagonists. I want more same-sex love interests where there are love interests to be found.

3) I want more protagonists of color. I want more female protagonists of color.

4) I want more transgendered protagonists.

5) I want fewer female love-interests that are killed to advance the plot and give the male hero motivation. I want more love-interests that are fully fleshed and developed. I want more female love-interests that do their own thing and are just as awesome as the hero.

6) I want more diverse personalities in male heroes. I want more shy and sweet scientists. More happy-go-lucky cuties that brighten everyone's day. More emotional, sensitive guys.

7) I want more female villains, who are even scarcer than female protagonists. More women like GLaDOS, like SHODAN, like Alma Wade, like Amanda Evert, like Dahlia Hawthorne. I want sympathetic villains that you can't help but feel for, I want absolute monsters that scare you, that you can't wait to end.

9) I want more disabled protagonists. (Does Adam Jensen count?)

10) I want more mentally ill protagonists, with their mental illness portrayed with realism and dignity.

All these would make me pretty happy, and they're really not difficult to accomplish.

See, this is a start.  A shallow one, but a start.  Because we're still glossing over the details.  Simply because we have no idea as to WHAT exactly would constitute any of those categories.  Would it be OK with a Gay/Lesbian villain?  Or a Crippled one?

And frankly, I have no idea how any can implement any of these, because if Movies and T.V. shows won't do it, I sincerely doubt Video Games will.  Although frankly, TV and Movies should...  But haven't in over 50 years of existence.  Typically minorities tend to be glossed over.  Especially anything that might make the audience uncomfortable, or really...  I mean, yes, we've seen Gay and Lesbian protagonists, usually in Comedies, or as shock/novelty characters/shows.  And as of yet, I've known of only one main lead that's an amputee (How to Train Your Dragon 2's Hiccup.)

I mean, take 9 and 10 on your list, do you honestly think anyone can do crippled (physically or mentally) hero/ines well enough that SOMEONE won't scream 'RACIST' or some other -ist at them?  Those types of things are tricky to do, and one thing I've noticed, is that people always take the safe way to do something, especially if they don't want to be seen as a racist, sexist or whatever.

Then again, at this point, I'm firmly in the belief that no one will ever be pleased.  Simply because if they were, then this entire shouting match would be over, and they'd have to look for another cause to take up and scream in the streets about.

I am however calling this one out:

8) I don't want any more overt misogyny played for laughs, Duke Nukem Forever style.

No one wanted this.  They wanted a better game and character than we got, instead we got this tripe, and you know what?  Sales bombed and bombed hard, pretty telling as to how much we wanted this.  What gamers wanted, and what gamers got were not in sync, and reviewers called out the excessively sexist commentary in the game.

I find this very unusual. Every gamer I've talked to before identifies with the PCs in the games they play.

Really, that they can identify with whatever Captain Shepard they make in Mass Effect but still go through the entirely scripted story, or with God of War's bundle of destructive rage that's Kratos, or with any of the three leads in Grand Theft Auto 5?  You've talked to some weird people...

Well that's a ridiculous question, did we start taking hostages and you need our demands?

How is it ridiculous?  Screaming 'WE WANT CHANGE!' and not specifying what sort of change you want is not very conducive to a discussion.  You DO want a discussion, right?

You know what's really sad?  There are a few PR companies out there that have told the Game Devs to shut down the conversation whenever someone starts even hinting at wanting 'Diversity' in a question, as they view it as a trap that will get the developers in question harassed.  And you know what?  A lot of the time, it is a trap.  Because no one wants to tell anyone what they really mean by 'Diversity'.

Would you like to see the portrayal of geeks and nerds remain fixed at the 1980/90s level? An endless parade of Steve Urkels defining how other people should perceive you?

With more respect than we're getting now.  Instead we're getting attacked and shamed, and we're falling for it.  Every article on how all (and yes, they've painted ALL male gamers with the same brush here) gamers are dicks and jerks that spout racist epithets like we're all those early XBox Live kids, that ALL gamers will utter death threats, and how all gamers are misogynistic pigs that should be relegated to jails with the rest of the pedophiles, some of which are written by male gamers, all point to the same thing:

Lack of respect for each of us as individual people.  Instead we're getting put into this group of lowlife 'neckbeards' that are assumed to live in our mom's basement.  How often do we STILL get that portrayal?  More than I'd like.  What I want, is what I'm assuming most of us want here:  Respect.

Take a look at Bernard Benouli in maniac mansion or day of the tentacle (not a brilliant example, because those games were deconstructions of the cliques in media at the time but honestly video games have never been too terribly unkind to nerds for obvious reasons so it's hard to find examples) and compare that to how a computer savvy, technically literate character is treated in Watchdogs.

Most games don't have gawky, skinny, self-conscious nerds as the main lead of their game.  They're typically relegated to the secondary role of Support.  Most games have big, buff, handsome male leads that make most Marines envious.

I know the experience of being told "you're a white male, you don't get it" and yeah it does suck. It's frustrating to see movies depict white people as 'lacking culture' compared to the vibrant cultures of other groups. It's annoying to be told that these problems don't exist.

And you're getting it every day, and without realizing it, you're OK with it.

Well, I'll admit that it does happen, but honestly as someone who gets to see both sides of the fence, you're getting off lightly. If your experience is enough for you to be ranting about it on here... just try to use your imagination for a second and picture how frustrating the more extreme experiences of others might be. Then you'll understand why you're seeing rants on these issues.

Lightly?  Every time there's this article about how white males are somehow to blame for something, because MAJORITY, you're getting painted with the same brush.  And believe you me, there are A LOT of those all over the place.

It's not sadly. Continuously, every day I have reminders that practically nothing was built with me in mind. I have to make do with entertainment and media that was built for someone else.

Usually, Japanese, if you love RPGs.  Not sure who Fantasy games (in general) are catering too, but it's not us North Americans.  Maybe Europeans.

Gee that would be nice. I was kind of hoping that after a day of dealing with this sort of bullshit I could relax with a video game, but that's just a reminder that I'm not welcome too.
Welcome to Gamergate, the latest of a long line of abuse that Gamers, especially the Male kind, have been subjected to for the last 30+ years.


Quote
Which is a good thing in my opinion. Room for Bayonetta, room for Dante, and room for Kratos and War. Diversity in characters and designs in the same boring genre. Gotta love it.

By the by, Bayonetta was designed by a woman.  Everything about her was designed by a woman doing her personal power fantasy.  Her name is:  Mari Shimazaki

Offline Vorian

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #139 on: November 02, 2014, 04:53:22 AM »
Which is a good thing in my opinion. Room for Bayonetta, room for Dante, and room for Kratos and War. Diversity in characters and designs in the same boring genre. Gotta love it.

See I more or less agree here (not familiar with Bayonetta or Dante specifically), but I think the real point is there's also room for female leads who aren't sexualized and we don't see nearly enough of them. Diversity.

Edit: And not just leads - villains and supporting characters as well.

Really, that they can identify with whatever Captain Shepard they make in Mass Effect but still go through the entirely scripted story, or with God of War's bundle of destructive rage that's Kratos, or with any of the three leads in Grand Theft Auto 5?  You've talked to some weird people...

Personally I strongly identified with my Commander Shepard, she represented a part of me I can't really express in the real world. That's why I loved the series so much despite its flaws. Kratos I couldn't identify with at all and that's a big part of why I never bothered to finish even the first game. The more I can identify with the character I'm playing, the more I enjoy the game in general.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 05:21:50 AM by Vorian »

Offline Melusine

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #140 on: November 02, 2014, 05:21:51 AM »
That's not what they SAID.  They WANTED A POSITIVE FEMALE LEAD IN A GTA GAME!  This is what they said.  Of course, it's unusual, it's the nature of the argument!  It didn't make sense in the Polygon review of GTA5!  It still doesn't make sense NOW!

I might not have expressed this well, but I do believe you. I'm agreeing with you.

See, this is a start.  A shallow one, but a start.  Because we're still glossing over the details.  Simply because we have no idea as to WHAT exactly would constitute any of those categories.  Would it be OK with a Gay/Lesbian villain?  Or a Crippled one?

I don't see why not.

And frankly, I have no idea how any can implement any of these, because if Movies and T.V. shows won't do it, I sincerely doubt Video Games will.  Although frankly, TV and Movies should...  But haven't in over 50 years of existence.  Typically minorities tend to be glossed over.  Especially anything that might make the audience uncomfortable, or really...  I mean, yes, we've seen Gay and Lesbian protagonists, usually in Comedies, or as shock/novelty characters/shows.  And as of yet, I've known of only one main lead that's an amputee (How to Train Your Dragon 2's Hiccup.)

How they can implement it? That's easy. Show your male protagonist going on a date with a guy. There, automatically he's not straight. Make your protagonist female and chinese. There, automatically she's female and chinese. Show your character communicating with sign language. There, automatically they're deaf.

Whether or not they WILL is a different matter, but I'm optimistic. Movies and TV should shape up, and so should videogames. People loved Hiccup, didn't they? Also, Clint Barton from Avengers has established hearing problems.

I mean, take 9 and 10 on your list, do you honestly think anyone can do crippled (physically or mentally) hero/ines well enough that SOMEONE won't scream 'RACIST' or some other -ist at them?  Those types of things are tricky to do, and one thing I've noticed, is that people always take the safe way to do something, especially if they don't want to be seen as a racist, sexist or whatever.

Yes, I do honestly think that. I've seen it happen. It might be tricky to tell a story from a different perspective but with some research and an open mind, it can be done. You yourself gave an example: the game with the asian american protagonist, which was made by white american men. Was there an outcry with that?

Then again, at this point, I'm firmly in the belief that no one will ever be pleased.  Simply because if they were, then this entire shouting match would be over, and they'd have to look for another cause to take up and scream in the streets about.

I said it before, it's extremely insulting to believe that people like me just enjoy being upset and having shouting matches.

No one wanted this.  They wanted a better game and character than we got, instead we got this tripe, and you know what?  Sales bombed and bombed hard, pretty telling as to how much we wanted this.  What gamers wanted, and what gamers got were not in sync, and reviewers called out the excessively sexist commentary in the game.

And I'm glad for that. That was a great response to the game.

Really, that they can identify with whatever Captain Shepard they make in Mass Effect but still go through the entirely scripted story, or with God of War's bundle of destructive rage that's Kratos, or with any of the three leads in Grand Theft Auto 5?  You've talked to some weird people...

I haven't met ANYONE who didn't identify with their Shepard. That's the point of being able to create your own PC: so you can make them like you, and most people take advantage of that chance. The point of Kratos and the Grand Theft Auto protags is that they promote power fantasies. They don't appeal to everyone, of course. Some others identify with Nathan Drake, others with Ezio, others with Lara Croft, others with Samus Aran.

By the by, Bayonetta was designed by a woman.  Everything about her was designed by a woman doing her personal power fantasy.  Her name is:  Mari Shimazaki

Please note that the director of the game is Hideki Kamiya, a man. Please also note that the second game was promoted by Playboy magazine, with a woman cosplaying Bayonetta and posing sexily.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Gamergate
« Reply #141 on: November 02, 2014, 05:33:50 AM »
I've just spent a lot of time working through the search results of this search and I can't find that review (the GTA v one that so upset you) anywhere.  Are you sure you've got all the details right?  Are you sure you're not making it up?  Is there anything else you can remember about it that might narrow it down?

Offline Shjade

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #142 on: November 02, 2014, 07:57:53 AM »
And does the scene where he flies through the air naked in the black hair one just not count now? Oh look it is funny because the random objects block his penis. Bayonetta's hair blocks you from seeing her naughty bits too you know? And no game will have zoomed in crotch shots of a male, not yet anyway. Even in Metal Gear when the guy was completely naked he managed to cover his junk doing flips.
No, it definitely counts. That grand total of 1 cutscene in the whole game definitely counts.

I know there's more than one Devil May Cry game. You're the one who said to check DMC, so I checked DMC, and while it has occasional physique-flash shots, they are far from the constant exhibition present in Bayonetta, which is what I asked you (and what you, falsely, told me was the case).

Offline Slywyn

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #143 on: November 02, 2014, 09:01:50 AM »
There was another conversation going on at the same time to bear with me on these quotes but-

Quote
No, Iím not. Iím talking about Mari Shimazakiís interview with Gerald Villoria at Gamespy, where she says that she ďhad a lot of conversations with KaimyaĒ about what is sexy from a male point of view and what he wants in the character



That if she had free reign to design whatever she wanted Bayonetta is also what she thinks is sexy (and this is where she mentions she thinks Jeanne is more Kamiyaís type, though this does not negate the earlier statement that she was tasked with designing what Kamiya told her men find sexy)



And that as far as power fantasies go, when she plays Bayonetta she feels like she is Bayonetta in the same way that she feels like she becomes the male protagonist in games with a dude as the lead character.



There is nothing wrong with designing a sexy character or wanting to play a sexy lady in a game, but she was pretty clearly designed with dudes in mind and Mari Shimazaki straight up says as much. Like, I am not trying to take away Bayonetta as anyoneís personal power fantasy, but letís acknowledge she was designed with what makes the average gamer dude happy in a pretty prominent place on the priority list.

So let's stop pretending Bayonetta was designed with women in mind.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Gamergate
« Reply #144 on: November 02, 2014, 11:17:44 AM »
Since it seems that we're at this point in the conversation: Male gaze vs female gaze in a nutshell.

Idly, Chris, I have a question. Not unique to you, but you're the one I've seen expressing this sentiment most recently. What exactly is it that makes someone a gamer? I've been playing games for 30 years, but because I want to see better games with broader appeal, apparently I'm an outsider infecting the community. I've played everything from ADVENT to Civ:BE to Assassin's Creed 4 to a number of MMOs, but because I'm tired of being treated as something dirty - an insult or a punchline - by a community that presents itself as a safe space for outcasts, I'm an outsider who wants to tear everything down.

If "playing and loving games, and wanting to see more and better games" doesn't qualify me, why not?

Offline Chris Brady

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #145 on: November 02, 2014, 02:23:44 PM »
I've just spent a lot of time working through the search results of this search and I can't find that review (the GTA v one that so upset you) anywhere.  Are you sure you've got all the details right?  Are you sure you're not making it up?  Is there anything else you can remember about it that might narrow it down?

I said Polygon and GTA 5.  It was all there, and I found it relatively easily using those two keywords, I'm sorry you couldn't find it.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/9/16/4720458/gta-5-review-grand-theft-auto  And the 'offending' paragraphs is right here:

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide
All of Grand Theft Auto 5's leads are deeply unsatisfied in their own ways. Crushed by the monotony of life or the thumb of the system, they seek adventure, money and mayhem. Rockstar demonstrates real progression for the series narratively and in characterization, and for open-world games in general ó unless that character is or involves a woman.

There are more interesting female characters on Grand Theft Auto 5's disc art than there are in Grand Theft Auto 5; the female cop and female criminal printed onto the disc are never seen in the game's vast world.
"There are more interesting female characters on Grand Theft Auto 5's disc art than there are in Grand Theft Auto 5"

I counted roughly (and generously) six semi-important female characters in the game, maybe a couple more if I include the occasional quest giver or victim of theft. None are playable. All but one are shrill buzzkills; the latter has Stockholm syndrome. And the two grisliest murders in the game happen to women. One side story involves the persistent and unsettling harassment of an absent female character, the purpose of which is to show the cruelty of Trevor, but which goes upsettingly far beyond what feels necessary to the story.

While most of Grand Theft Auto 5 feels like an evolution of the blockbuster video game, its treatment of women is a relic from the current generation, which is too often fixated on bald men and big breasts. In terms of landscape and architecture, San Andreas is the most realistic virtual world I've visited, but the population is aggressively, comically, distractingly male. I cannot think of any piece of media more fascinated with the male phallus.

Oh, and for the record, I hate the GTA series.  I'm not one to play out and out selfish crooks.

The issue here is that none of the main leads are supposed to be fully likeable.  They're IDIOTS in their own way.  Franklin, the Black guy's idea of 'moving up' is to join a bank robber's crew.

Michael is/was a successful bank robber, is exceedingly rich, but his marriage is on the rocks.  His wife's cheating on him, his daughter's practically prostituting herself and his son is a marijuana addict, right down to the lack of ambition and spending his time at home toking up.  His solution to his money problems?  STEAL MORE MONEY!

And Trevor is every single GTA video game that treats it solely as a game, and not caring about narrative (which I'm not blaming or accusing anyone here, but if you sit down and watch the albeit very funny stunts that they pull off, if they tried any of it in real life, you would get...  Trevor, if not dead) wrapped up into a rather offensive hillbilly redneck conspiracy theory stereotype.

These are not positive people.  They're not people you should identify with.  The fact that women are not also portrayed like these morons is actually a blessing, as you COULD (and I do) take it that women, in general aren't as dumb as most of the men in this game, and the fact that there are more men who are idiots than women, is and I repeat myself here, an affirmation that women are smarter than to pull this stuff.

...

Dammit, I just realized I just got sucked into the wrong argument again.  It's turned into a feminist argument, which Gamergate was never about.  I apologize to everyone here, and I'm backing out.  I'm still trying to figure out how to make gamer news outlets more accountable for their reviews and potential paid ads as reviews.

No matter what happens, Happy Gaming.

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Re: Gamergate
« Reply #146 on: November 02, 2014, 02:29:50 PM »
That doesn't even nearly say what you claimed it said.  Not even nearly. You claimed that a review had wanted:

Quote
They wanted a 'positive female lead' in GTA, because all the other ones were stupid/selfish/criminal.
 

That's not what the review you quoted asked for.  Not by any meaning of any of the included words.  You have read that wrong.  The review is asking for interesting and important female characters, not positive role models.  I couldn't find that review because it bears no relation at all to the one you described.  In short, you did make it up.  I thought you probably had.

Offline Ebb

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #147 on: November 02, 2014, 03:21:42 PM »
Then again, at this point, I'm firmly in the belief that no one will ever be pleased.  Simply because if they were, then this entire shouting match would be over, and they'd have to look for another cause to take up and scream in the streets about.

Dammit, I just realized I just got sucked into the wrong argument again.  It's turned into a feminist argument, which Gamergate was never about.  I apologize to everyone here, and I'm backing out.  I'm still trying to figure out how to make gamer news outlets more accountable for their reviews and potential paid ads as reviews.

That's probably for the best. In your first quote you're flat-out saying that you think the people arguing against you are being disingenuous; that they do not honestly hold the opinions that they're espousing, and that they're only propagating this 'shouting match' because, I guess, they enjoy 'screaming in the streets'. That's horrendously offensive, and essentially poisons the well of discourse so thoroughly that any reasonable discussion becomes impossible. If you cannot respect those you're speaking with to grant even that they are being sincere in their voiced beliefs, then you have no business engaging in conversation with them.


Offline Caehlim

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #148 on: November 02, 2014, 04:06:33 PM »
Oh, just for the record, earlier on when I said that Bayonetta had a potential artistic argument as portraying the nature of power fantasies I didn't mean to imply that it was a female power fantasy. I meant that it exaggerates the sexual divergence of how power fantasies treat men and women differently to a point so ridiculous that it potentially parodies the discrepancy. In other words rather than being a female power fantasy it seems a mockery of male ideas of female power.

I'm not sure if that was the intent of the series since I honestly know very little about the game. It may just be intended as cheap titillation, although I'd like to hope that it was a deconstruction.

Offline Shjade

Re: Gamergate
« Reply #149 on: November 02, 2014, 09:02:02 PM »
Dammit, I just realized I just got sucked into the wrong argument again.  It's turned into a feminist argument, which Gamergate was never about.  I apologize to everyone here, and I'm backing out.  I'm still trying to figure out how to make gamer news outlets more accountable for their reviews and potential paid ads as reviews.
Which seems like a laudable goal, and I hope you figure out the answer to that problem.

GamerGate, on the other hand, is more concerned with being terrorists. That's not hyperbole or an insult; I'm using the term literally.



No "it's not about women" or "it's not about harassment" or "it's about ethics" distractions, just someone straight up saying Gamergate is out to terrify and silence all media they feel is "with SJWs."

Spin that one.