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Author Topic: What's in the news?  (Read 174509 times)

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Offline lovelylilT

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #975 on: May 18, 2015, 10:13:25 AM »
surprising but not unexpected, it's wierd how when I run into Russians they seem to have this myth that "the west" is trying to overthrow their country...
the the whole crimea thing... I found myself unable to object to it other than being pissed.
But then I see this crap in eastern ukrane... and my response was simmilar to this below.



Many sighs. Most Russians don't think the West is trying for overthrowing Russia. But, they do think the West meddles too much in affairs that aren't theirs.

And many in Eastern Ukraine don't look at Russia as villain. Many of us want joining Russia, instead of being art of Kyiv. But most want this resolved in peace, not fighting.

I don't trust Western media either. But that doesn't mean I drink Cool Aid for Putin and Moscow, either.

I don't wish for arguing again what happens in Ukraine, it's my home country. It just makes me very angry when I see people from the West always saying that everything in Western press is truth, and everything Russian must be bad and lies. That's not true and insulting. It's not black and white, like that.

Offline Zakharra

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #976 on: May 18, 2015, 10:36:50 AM »
  Then why don't they move to Russia rather than try and tear Ukraine apart by trying to take the land with them?

Offline lovelylilT

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #977 on: May 18, 2015, 11:10:14 AM »
I did. I'm in St Petersburg now. That was for safety of me and my family though. I can't speak,for everyone else.

I say this before, but many people in Eastern Ukraine always think themselves Russian. Being part of Ukraine, officially, only happens for past few decades. It's part of Russia much longer than ever part of Ukraine. Many people are of Russian decent, it's spoken more than Ukraine in many cities. If there could be fair referendum, majority would vote for joining Russia, I think. In Donbass many (not everyone I know!) don't see as tearing Ukraine apart, but making something right. That's what I mean for saying what happens isn't so simple, and isn't black and white.

We argue about this, before. I don't think you're believing me. That's okay. :-)


Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #978 on: May 18, 2015, 06:40:12 PM »
Many sighs. Most Russians don't think the West is trying for overthrowing Russia. But, they do think the West meddles too much in affairs that aren't theirs.

We do, most certainly, although I think that's more of a reflection of our amount of international influence than character in using it.  And Russia in particular has little room to complain. 

And many in Eastern Ukraine don't look at Russia as villain. Many of us want joining Russia, instead of being art of Kyiv. But most want this resolved in peace, not fighting.

I think that's a key component to the public opinion and outrage.  It's one thing to pursue a political agenda toward separation.  It is a very different thing to use warfare to achieve that.  When I see pictures like these and hear of passenger planes being shot down, I find it very difficult to believe that public will is being represented rather than brute force.  I would also expect a neighboring world power to try to check the violence, not encourage it or run propaganda stunts like Nadiya Savchenko's imprisonment.   

I realize, in light of America's near-constant combat in other countries, that may sound hypocritical.  However, there are fine differences.  I won't claim we don't work to influence who runs foreign countries, but we don't try to absorb them (nor is this a new policy; we have been firmly opposed to territorial war gains since the Great War).  American intolerance of casualties is also a bit notorious, but I think most foreigners miss the point of it.  We are not unwilling to sacrifice for a just cause; however, ongoing and mounting casualties are a major indication that we are not leading a liberation but an invasion.  The bloody experience in Iraq made it apparent to many that we were not there to lend guidance and support, we were an unwelcome occupation.  The same in Vietnam. 

It just makes me very angry when I see people from the West always saying that everything in Western press is truth, and everything Russian must be bad and lies. That's not true and insulting. It's not black and white, like that.

Oh my goodness, I don't think we do that at ALL, at least not the first part.  Fox in particular is rather notorious for hyperbole that falls just short of complete fabrication.  We do, however, understand that there is a basic review process, that our media isn't state run, and that contrary evidence can be made public.  They aren't always right, they have definite bias, and we rarely see anywhere near the whole story, but I do find the basic facts reported by the Times, BBC, NY Times, Seattle Times, etc to be pretty reliable.  And sometimes - as with the Savchenko incident, or basically anything put out by North Korea ever - the accounts are so contrary to rational judgment that they're discredited on their own account.  The reliable stories from the Russian media that would interest the West are usually picked up by our own papers, verified, and repeated.  Those just seem to mostly involve Putin running around bare chested trying to resurrect the USSR and dissident politicians being shot blocks from the Kremlin, which doesn't really thrill us much.  For most of us there's also a language barrier (Russian isn't commonly taught here).  But yes, I've heard of the awesome siberian church that was moved from an abandoned town and renovated and the intriguing wooden statue they pulled from a bog and saw some of the 70th anniversary of WWII events that took place in Moscow.  We aren't entirely oblivious :)

Offline Zakharra

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #979 on: May 18, 2015, 11:57:48 PM »
I did. I'm in St Petersburg now. That was for safety of me and my family though. I can't speak,for everyone else.

I say this before, but many people in Eastern Ukraine always think themselves Russian. Being part of Ukraine, officially, only happens for past few decades. It's part of Russia much longer than ever part of Ukraine. Many people are of Russian decent, it's spoken more than Ukraine in many cities. If there could be fair referendum, majority would vote for joining Russia, I think. In Donbass many (not everyone I know!) don't see as tearing Ukraine apart, but making something right. That's what I mean for saying what happens isn't so simple, and isn't black and white.

We argue about this, before. I don't think you're believing me. That's okay. :-)


 The thing is it is a part of Ukraine now, and has been for at least 60 some years. It's status as an independent nation was recognized by everyone, including Russia.  Now Russia is going back on its word in what looks like a bid to rebuild its empire (the Soviet or Tsarist one). I know a person who lived in Donbass when all of this started.d He is ethnically Russian, but he absolutely -hates-, the separatists because he identifies as Ukrainian, not Russian and sees it as Russia tearing his country apart. If the population of those areas want to be a part of Russia so bad, there is an option that doesn't tear apart the country; move to Russia. Yet it's an option most of them are refusing. They'd rather tear Ukraine apart than move.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #980 on: May 19, 2015, 12:19:26 AM »
To play devil's advocate here, 60 years is still a relatively short time when you look at it from the clan/tribal mindset, which rears its head a lot in situations where ethnic groups are spread across political borders. It might be 'tearing Ukraine apart', but that's a part of the world where being Ukranian or Russian (the nationality) is sometimes secondary to being Slavic or Russian or Cossack or Pole, etc., so they see it rather as reuniting their group's territory, something that shouldn't have been broken in the first place.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 12:22:06 AM by TheGlyphstone »

Offline Kythia

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #981 on: May 19, 2015, 12:28:38 AM »
I'm not sure it's even devil's advocate. The parallel seems to be Northern Ireland. If Iris Nationalists love the Republic so much why not move there? Well, just so many reasons.

Online TheGlyphstone

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #982 on: May 19, 2015, 12:32:07 AM »
I'm not sure it's even devil's advocate. The parallel seems to be Northern Ireland. If Iris Nationalists love the Republic so much why not move there? Well, just so many reasons.

My first thought was actually certain parts of the Middle East, but Northern Ireland is closer and just as good a parallel.

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #983 on: May 19, 2015, 01:22:52 AM »
Admittedly this didn't make the news in Scandinavia, but it's so cool and pointed I have to share it. Barack Obama has floated the twitter handle POTUS - and soon had a welcome from a former holder of the Oval Office:

 Welcome to @Twitter, @POTUS! One question: Does that username stay with the office? #askingforafriend

Bill Clinton (@billclinton) May 18, 2015

The president later replied to Bill Clinton's question, implying he might go for a "twofer":

 Good question, @billclinton. The handle comes with the house. Know anyone interested in @FLOTUS?

 :D


Online TheGlyphstone

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #984 on: May 19, 2015, 01:51:01 AM »
He can probably think of someone who's hoping to get the @FHOTUS handle.

Offline lovelylilT

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #985 on: May 19, 2015, 07:33:18 AM »
To play devil's advocate here, 60 years is still a relatively short time when you look at it from the clan/tribal mindset, which rears its head a lot in situations where ethnic groups are spread across political borders. It might be 'tearing Ukraine apart', but that's a part of the world where being Ukranian or Russian (the nationality) is sometimes secondary to being Slavic or Russian or Cossack or Pole, etc., so they see it rather as reuniting their group's territory, something that shouldn't have been broken in the first place.

My first thought was actually certain parts of the Middle East, but Northern Ireland is closer and just as good a parallel.


Thank you, both. :-) This better explains, what I try saying.

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #986 on: May 19, 2015, 07:58:11 AM »
I'm just going to say one thing about this.

It wasn't Russia that was oppressing the people in Eastern Ukraine. That was the government of Ukraine. Now they complain about how that region is rebellious, while they were the ones who instigated it. If anybody was out for war, it's the Ukranian government.

As a Russian, I never said the West is trying to overthrow the Russian government. Even if they were succesfull, we'd have WW3 on our hands and a small dozen of nukes gone missing.

I remember when the FSB allegedly murdered that guy in London with polonium. How dare the Russians do that on British soil. But the US Army training the Ukrainian army, who are at war with Russia, is all fine because it's not technically Russia.

Also, Russia didn't give Crimea away. The leader of the Soviet Union, Nikita Khrushchev, because he was alledgedly drunk. Maybe people who live on Crim, are Russians working for the navy. They were back then but then it didn't matter because it was all the Soviet Union. Then in 1991, they suddenly became Ukrainians. They've lived there for generations and all those generations are Russian. Telling them to leave and move back to Russia is a bit narrowminded.

LovelyT was lucky enough to have the resources to move to St. Petersburg, many of the people in eastern Ukraine or Crim don't have the resources and thus CANNOT move, even if they wanted to.

Is that a reason to invade it? No. But it's not as simple as the media makes you believe it is.

Offline Aethereal

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #987 on: May 19, 2015, 08:12:04 AM »
Quote
They've lived there for generations and all those generations are Russian.
It is somewhat more probable that they were deported to Ukrainian territory during the Soviet era, rather than lived there all along.

Offline Dice

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #988 on: May 19, 2015, 08:15:02 AM »
No, the natives were starved to death and then replaced. The history of the whole place is really really fucked up.

Offline Zakharra

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #989 on: May 19, 2015, 08:50:57 AM »
I'm just going to say one thing about this.

It wasn't Russia that was oppressing the people in Eastern Ukraine. That was the government of Ukraine. Now they complain about how that region is rebellious, while they were the ones who instigated it. If anybody was out for war, it's the Ukranian government.

As a Russian, I never said the West is trying to overthrow the Russian government. Even if they were succesfull, we'd have WW3 on our hands and a small dozen of nukes gone missing.

I remember when the FSB allegedly murdered that guy in London with polonium. How dare the Russians do that on British soil. But the US Army training the Ukrainian army, who are at war with Russia, is all fine because it's not technically Russia.

Also, Russia didn't give Crimea away. The leader of the Soviet Union, Nikita Khrushchev, because he was alledgedly drunk. Maybe people who live on Crim, are Russians working for the navy. They were back then but then it didn't matter because it was all the Soviet Union. Then in 1991, they suddenly became Ukrainians. They've lived there for generations and all those generations are Russian. Telling them to leave and move back to Russia is a bit narrowminded.

LovelyT was lucky enough to have the resources to move to St. Petersburg, many of the people in eastern Ukraine or Crim don't have the resources and thus CANNOT move, even if they wanted to.

Is that a reason to invade it? No. But it's not as simple as the media makes you believe it is.



 The one incident is an assassination (fully in the style of the FSB/KGB descendant organization). The other is legally training the armed forces of an ally/potential ally. Many nations do this openly. That's a big difference.

  It looked like it would be considered oppression to a point. I mean really, getting irate because the Russian language wasn't made an official language of Ukraine? is that something to get rebellions over? (yes, I am aware that's not the only thing that was causing problems.) It seems that the population wanted special citizen privileges.

 I would not blame Nikita Khrushchev being drunk since he could have easily reversed that decision the next day with no problem, as could have any of the Soviet leaders after him. It's not like they didn't have the power to do that....  So the land swap was legal, as was held up by -everyone-, from the Soviets to Russia itself. And it isn't like sections of land haven't changed hands before via treaty or even buying it. It was quite common to have done that in the previous century and before (along with conquest) regardless of what the population of that area thinks. Legally the land belongs to the nation that got it. If the people don't like it, they can move. If they can't, they are now citizens of their new nation regardless of their ethnic background. The Louisiana and Alaska Purchases come to mind. People on those chunks of land might have been Spanish/French or Russian citizens, but after the change was made, they either became US citizens or left. They didn't get to take part of the land with them back to their native countries. It isn't narrow minded for them to be asked to leave if they don't want to be a part of the country they are in. It is normal. and remember that many legal immigrants to the US come here with nothing but the clothes on their backs, and they have to cross the ocean to get here. So it is possible and doable. Especially if Russia is willing to help them financially.

 Shienvien and Dice also make good points too. Russia before and the Soviets regularly moved entire populations in and out of areas to Russia-fy them. It weakens the local's hold on the land and strengthened the Russia one, and Stalin did cause the famine that killed millions of Ukrainians (intentionally it looks like by confiscating all of the food and starving out the locals). Russia does not have a good record in dealing with nations on its fringes or minority groups.

Offline Aethereal

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #990 on: May 19, 2015, 10:38:51 AM »
Quote
No, the natives were starved to death and then replaced. The history of the whole place is really really fucked up.
That happened, too, yes. Natives killed off, others deported in... The Soviet Union was a cruel, nasty force to be reckoned with.

(For the record - I, too, live in a former forcefully-made-to-join Soviet Union country, though not Ukraine. I could tell stories... The only reason I am even alive is lack of proper paperwork, and the wrong people being shot instead of my direct ancestors, who had done nothing "wrong" besides one of them having been a somewhat insignificant politician back during the first republic.)

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #991 on: May 19, 2015, 10:51:20 AM »
That happened, too, yes. Natives killed off, others deported in... The Soviet Union was a cruel, nasty force to be reckoned with.

Funny... I don't remember it like that... at all :)

Offline Oniya

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #992 on: May 19, 2015, 11:00:02 AM »
That would have been in the time period of 1940-1953.  Probably a bit before your time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states_under_Soviet_rule_%281944%E2%80%9391%29

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #993 on: May 19, 2015, 11:03:05 AM »
Yeah. That must be the reason.

Offline Callie Del Noire

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #994 on: May 19, 2015, 12:25:05 PM »
Hell, has officially frozen over, I think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32786393

The idea that anyone in the Royal family would shake Gerry Adams hand is a shock. That prince Chatles was smile is a bigger shock.

He's a better man than I.

Offline Deamonbane

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #995 on: May 19, 2015, 12:31:38 PM »
Hell, has officially frozen over, I think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32786393

The idea that anyone in the Royal family would shake Gerry Adams hand is a shock. That prince Chatles was smile is a bigger shock.

He's a better man than I.
Now that you mention it, it is rather chilly...

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #996 on: May 19, 2015, 12:58:36 PM »
Hell, has officially frozen over, I think.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-32786393

The idea that anyone in the Royal family would shake Gerry Adams hand is a shock. That prince Chatles was smile is a bigger shock.

He's a better man than I.

The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step. Its better a smile and a handshake than tears and a prayer.

Offline Zakharra

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #997 on: May 19, 2015, 02:47:52 PM »
 I had to google Gerry Adams, but it looks like a good step was taken here.

Offline Kythia

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #998 on: May 19, 2015, 03:02:29 PM »
It sticks in my craw that we're forced to treat the man as a politician.  I fully accept that the alternative is far far worse, but still.  Not as bad as when McGuinness met the Queen, but still annoying.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #999 on: May 19, 2015, 03:36:50 PM »
Funny... I don't remember it like that... at all :)

Dash, I'm not sure what your intentions behind that post were... Are you seriously suggesting that the Soviet Union wasn't an oppressive state?

Because if so, I can only invite to read some more on the history of the nations of Eastern and Central Europe. From my side of things, I can mention the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1920, the Soviets cooperating with Hitler in dismantling Poland in 1939, the Katyń Massacre, the deportations of Polish people to places like Kazakhstan, the whole second half of the 20th century when we were forced to be a Soviet satellite state... And that's just Poland.

With all due respect, you really shouldn't be joking about things like that.