What's in the news?

[gaggedLouise]

Has Shakespeare ever been on a British bank note? 

[Lilias]

We put Winston Churchill on the banknote and he's only been dead for 50 years. >.>
But hey, if that's the way we have to go, why not put Agatha Christie on the note instead? At least her books were entertaining...

Christie was Tolkien's contemporary, and her genre was even more disreputable than his. :)

You don't have to like Austen, but her continuing influence is undeniable.

[Valerian]

Austen was extremely influential as far as I'm concerned.  As a young girl, realizing that yes, women could also write works that were considered classic literature was tremendously important, for me and probably a host of other young girls.

Tolkien's writing was never all that thrilling to me, honestly, and I say this as a longtime tabletop gamer and proud nerd... though (perhaps oddly) I'm not much of a fan of sitting down and reading fantasy.  He may have had a flashier impact in geek circles, but that doesn't mean he had more impact overall.

[Lilias]

Has Shakespeare ever been on a British bank note? 

Yes; the £20 between 1970-1993.

[Vergil Tanner]

Has Shakespeare ever been on a British bank note? 

Yes.

Christie was Tolkien's contemporary, and her genre was even more disreputable than his. :)

You don't have to like Austen, but her continuing influence is undeniable.

Well. Her influence back then. Her influence TODAY is negligible, especially compared to Tolkien. Tolkien is one of THE most influential writers in Fiction.

Austen was extremely influential as far as I'm concerned.  As a young girl, realizing that yes, women could also write works that were considered classic literature was tremendously important, for me and probably a host of other young girls.

Tolkien's writing was never all that thrilling to me, honestly, and I say this as a longtime tabletop gamer and proud nerd... though (perhaps oddly) I'm not much of a fan of sitting down and reading fantasy.  He may have had a flashier impact in geek circles, but that doesn't mean he had more impact overall.

Well, what Austen did was done by other early authors as well. She was influential, yes, but...Tolkien has influence FAR more than "certain Geeky circles." He created an entire genre, and far more than you seem to be giving him credit for. Any fantasy series existing today, film, TV, book or game, has been influenced by Tolkien. Austen was influential...but Tolkien's legacy blows Austens out of the water.

[gaggedLouise]

Perhaps the trouble with Tolkien is that he's seen (by some) as overly monarchist. I mean, in his world kings and princes rule, democracy isn't on the table...

[Lilias]

Well. Her influence back then. Her influence TODAY is negligible, especially compared to Tolkien. Tolkien is one of THE most influential writers in Fiction.

Her influence today, 200 years after her death, is going stronger than ever. It's negligible to you because her stuff is not your scene.

Well, what Austen did was done by other early authors as well. She was influential, yes, but...Tolkien has influence FAR more than "certain Geeky circles." He created an entire genre, and far more than you seem to be giving him credit for. Any fantasy series existing today, film, TV, book or game, has been influenced by Tolkien. Austen was influential...but Tolkien's legacy blows Austens out of the water.

Tolkien built on top of Dunsany, mainly. It's not like elves and dwarves didn't exist in literature for centuries before him. He was an academic, not a storyteller; his stories are painfully clunky in places (and even as a professor, apparently, he was dull as ditchwater). He inspired plenty of other writers, sure, but most of them do the thing a lot better than he ever did.

[Vergil Tanner]

Perhaps the trouble with Tolkien is that he's seen (by some) as overly monarchist. I mean, in his world kings and princes rule, democracy isn't on the table...

Well, to be completely fair, his writing was set in a time period where democracy wasn't really "Done." I mean, rule by popular vote didn't really gain much traction until the Renaissance. And to be completely fair, in a War against Satan, I would rather have a benevolent and decisive King over a slow, ponderous council. Hell, even if the King is a bit brutal in his methods, at least he gets shit done. xD

Her influence today, 200 years after her death, is going stronger than ever. It's negligible to you because her stuff is not your scene.

I would say that I could say the same to you...but I can't. Because guaranteed, everybody likes SOMETHING that is inspired at least in part by Tolkien. As you shall see below.

Tolkien built on top of Dunsany, mainly.

And Austen was influenced heavily by Burney and Edgeworth. Your point?
Yeah, he was influenced, but Dunsany mostly wrote short stories and one off pieces. Tolkien was the first - and if not the very first, the first widely popular - High Fantasy Epic, full length series, akin to things like (but very different from) Narnia.

It's not like elves and dwarves didn't exist in literature for centuries before him.

True, but they didn't exist in the form that he created them, neither did they exist in the same world. Tolkien codified most of what we think of when it comes to High Fantasy, and his influences have echoed across genres. Even popular Urban Fantasy, Sci Fi and Dystopian writers have cited Tolkien as a massive inspiration to them. The point isn't that he invented whole new concepts per say, it's that he codified and unified them and presented them in a way that hadn't really been done before and proved popular enough to create an entire genre that then echoed into other genres. I mean...Wheel of Time, Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, The Witcher, Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, Legend of The Seeker, World of Warcraft, Dungeons and Dragons...so much of popular culture would never have existed without Tolkien and his work. And you know what? George Lucas himself cited Tolkien as a primary inspiration for his work on Star Wars (Endor is the Elvish word for Middle-Earth). Babylon 5's "Shadows" were inspired by The Nazgul, and the Rangers code was a direct meta reference to Gandalf on Kazak-Dum. Stephen King even stated categorically that The Lord Of The Rings was his inspiration for The Stand and The Dark Tower! Tolkien's influence transcends genres and has inspired so many classic pieces of work and so much of pop culture for the last fifty years that taking Tolkien out of History...well, our modern world would look MUCH more different than if Austen had never been popular. Austen never existing would have affected a great deal, yes, but nowhere near the extent of Tolkien.

And it goes further than that; Tolkien has inspired all kinds of famous pieces of art. I mean, contemporary artists like Nina Beier, Marie Lund did several pieces inspired by Tolkien and Lewis. Musicians like Rush, Nightwish, Megadeth and Led Zepplin (works like "The Battle Of Evermore" and - some argue - aspects of Stairway To Heaven, though that is more dubious) were inspired by Tolkiens work and wrote some pretty awesome pieces of music based on his work, and more than one symphony has been inspired by LOTR (Johan de Meij, for example, and Donald Swann in a more folksong-ish fashion). People have written cookbooks based on his world! And not just that; Tolkiens work was massively influential in the "Green Push" of the 60's, popularising the idea of natural conservation. You just have to look at the massive popularity it had in "Hippie" media at the time to see that. Hell, recently Warner Bros. partnered with the WWF (the panda one, not the steel chair one) to promote environmentalist themes with children using themed activities and educational tools.

Hell, even in technology, Michael Everson - the leading guy in the push in making Unicode accessible to people of all languages; he focuses on making Unicode compatible with minority languages, and even helped the Cherokee and other Native American Tribes create fonts for their languages for use on electronic devices - has stated that he was inspired by LOTR.

I'm not saying that Austen isn't influential...but no way in hell has she inspired as much work in as many varying branches of culture as Tolkiens work. No way hosay.

his stories are painfully clunky in places (and even as a professor, apparently, he was dull as ditchwater).

So? I find Austens work to be painfully dull and dry and boring. This discussion isn't about their quality as writers, but about their influence.

He inspired plenty of other writers, sure, but most of them do the thing a lot better than he ever did.

Again, I have to ask...what's your point? I could say the exact same thing about Austen. People have written MUCH better female characters and much more engaging and biting socio-political commentaries than her over the years. It doesn't make her any less influential. Similarly, I would argue that 1984 has been surpassed by other writers, as has War Of The Worlds...but that doesn't stop them from being HUGELY influential and massively important to our cultural history. Yeah, Wheel of Time and Game of Thrones and all that are better than the original books Tolkien wrote, but without him, they wouldn't even exist. And that's what I'm saying; Tolkien is far more influential than Austen over a wider array of genres and mediums, which is why - in my opinion - he deserves to be on a bank note more than Austen does. *shrug*

[Lilias]

The point is, apparently, 200 years. Tolkien can get his turn in the 22nd or 23rd century. He's not going anywhere.

Also, for anyone who doesn't get the biggie over the girly author: Influence

[Vergil Tanner]

The point is, apparently, 200 years. Tolkien can get his turn in the 22nd or 23rd century. He's not going anywhere.

Well, Florence Nightingale and Winston Churchill both got on the bank note less than 70 years after their respective deaths. So obviously, time isn't the issue.

Also, for anyone who doesn't get the biggie over the girly author: Influence

I never said that Austen wasn't influential...just that Tolkien is more.
Of course, that article never really goes into a great depth about what she's influenced or how her work has impacted modern culture. It's more a biographical piece that points out that she's had a lot of adaptations...which personally, I don't count as "influencing" considering that they're direct adaptations. And I use that rule for LOTR as well.

[Lilias]

Well, Florence Nightingale and Winston Churchill both got on the bank note less than 70 years after their respective deaths. So obviously, time isn't the issue.

They are, also, not artists. Much as I disagree, politics, military and social activism have more currency than the arts. Pun intended.

I never said that Austen wasn't influential...just that Tolkien is more.

Actually, you did. You said her influence today is negligible. Which it isn't.

Of course, that article never really goes into a great depth about what she's influenced or how her work has impacted modern culture. It's more a biographical piece that points out that she's had a lot of adaptations...which personally, I don't count as "influencing" considering that they're direct adaptations. And I use that rule for LOTR as well.

Try reading to the end, rather than skimming through.

Anyway, the peeps that appear on currency are picked through public vote from lists compiled by the Bank of England (for anyone wondering), and Tolkien has never been nominated yet. Perhaps if enough D&D geeks make it into the BofE, that could change in less than 200 years.

[Vergil Tanner]

They are, also, not artists. Much as I disagree, politics, military and social activism have more currency than the arts. Pun intended.

True, but my point was more that in terms of the banknotes, time obviously isn't a deciding factor.
Though to be completely fair...World War 2 wasn't exactly a small regional skirmish.

Actually, you did. You said her influence today is negligible. Which it isn't.

Well then, I misspoke. What I meant was, "In my opinion, her influence over modern culture is negligible compared to Tolkien."
That that distinction wasn't communicated properly was my fault; I was distracted and misspoke.

Try reading to the end, rather than skimming through.

I did. I just don't consider six lines of summary an indepth look at her influence on the world. Also, I disagree with a few of the assertions in there; a few of the things it claims that Austen is solely responsible for, I would argue was more of a group effort. Austen gets all the credit, but she wasn't the only woman writing at the time, and women would have gotten big in writing eventually anyway, considering that social progress marches on. Buuuut that's a debate for another time.

Anyway, the peeps that appear on currency are picked through public vote from lists compiled by the Bank of England (for anyone wondering), and Tolkien has never been nominated yet. Perhaps if enough D&D geeks make it into the BofE, that could change in less than 200 years.

Ok, you keep making the passive assertion that only Geeks and Nerds know or appreciate Tolkien. I don't know if this is a joke or not since tone is difficult to pick up over a digital medium. If it's a joke, then eh. If it isn't...I don't see why you keep taking pot shots at a community you aren't a part of as if that's gonna score "Points" somehow. You don't have to be a geek or a nerd to know who Tolkien is or appreciate his influence, and being a Geek or a Nerd definitely isn't a bad thing...and honestly, it might not be your intention, but you're starting to come off as rather condescending towards those groups. I'm not being dismissive of Austen, I just place Tolkien above her. Now again...if it's a joke, then I apologise for not picking up on it, but on the offchance it isn't...well, I figured I should at least say something to make it clear that I don't appreciate a community I love and a personal hero of mine being denigrated as "Just some silly nerd thing." I apologise if I've come across as dismissive towards Austen - she isn't to my tastes, but there's no denying her influence, even if I think she isn't as influential as Tolkien - since that wasn't my intention, and I apologise if I'm misreading your intentions, but you do seem to be being rather...dismissive and condescending towards an entire community for no real reason.

[Lilias]

Your assumptions about what communities I may or may not be part of are rather amusing. I'm happy Austen was picked over Wilde and Lord Nelson, who were the other options. You can keep pouting because Tolkien was not picked, even though he wasn't even in the run, or you can post more news. The turtle moves!

[Lustful Bride]

North Korean woman who escaped to the South and became a celebrity has reappeared in North Korea, claiming she hated the South and every day was hell, while some claim she may have been kidnapped/been blackmailed or had her family threatened to force her to return.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/defector-to-south-korea-who-became-a-celebrity-resurfaces-in-the-north/ar-BBEGBM5?li=BBnbcA1&ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

[Vergil Tanner]

I didn't make any assumptions, I just said that possibly because of limitations in the medium we're using, some of your comments came across as a little condescending. I even noted that I could be entirely mistaken. I mean, for one, your lack of smilies denoting a joke threw me off, since I'm used to people using " " or " xD " when they make a joke.

Also: Not pouting! I'm just saying that I disagree with the choice.



Hmmm...I smell something fishy going on. >.> Blackmail and kidnap is certainly not beneath the NK Regime. I mean, the entire country basically functions like a Cult at this point. >.>

[Trigon]

Yeah, but that feature of NK was noted decades ago 


The only thing that is missing is the political will to take it down...

[Sara Nilsson]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/18/us/transgender-woman-viral-photo-trnd/index.html

trans woman takes picture along with texas governor who is smiling all happily and then posts online, if the governor can't tell I am trans how will the potty police?

This woman is my new hero :)

[Beorning]

As Poland's ruling party pushes forward their confroversial (and, as many experts point out, unconstitutional) judiciary reforms, EU threatens to escalate disciplinary actions against Poland:

https://www.ft.com/content/3be5f6fd-bd20-3171-ab4f-5e99ad333626?mhq5j=e1

More on the crisis:

https://www.ft.com/content/70dc6b76-6bcc-11e7-bfeb-33fe0c5b7eaa?mhq5j=e1

BTW. You guys should see how the parliamentary proceedings of these bills look like. The parliament is cordoned off by the police and metal barriers, there's even a police vehicle with a water cannon waiting... Inside, the parliamentary have apparently been issued *firearms* (something that has not happened before, ever) - and are actually occassionally present in the main chamber of the parliament. The tension is very high.

And the leader of PiS, Jarosław Kaczyński, has completely gone off the rails yesterday. During the previous days, many opposition MPs have pointed out that his Kaczyński's late brother, President Lech Kaczyński, would probably oppose these new bills, as his views on these matters seemed to have been drastically different. And yesterday, Kaczyński (the PiS leader) barged into the speaking stand during the proceedings and started shouting at the opposition MPs: "Stop putting my late brother into your traitorous mouths! You harassed him! You destroyed him! You murdered him! You are bastards!!!"

Madness... 

(actually, that rant was even more hateful, but I don't know enough of English expletitives to translate it. What's an English vulgar word for "mouth"?)

[Avis habilis]

(actually, that rant was even more hateful, but I don't know enough of English expletitives to translate it. What's an English vulgar word for "mouth"?)

"Shut your filthy pie hole!"

[LisztesFerenc]

"Shut your filthy pie hole!"

  "Stop putting my late brother into your traitorous pie holes" - ?

[Beorning]

Yeah, that sounds about right. Thanks.

Anyway, vulgar words aside, this rant seems to show that Kaczyński genuinely believes that the opposition has murdered his brother... According to one opposition MP, Kaczyński has asked him to approach him after finishing his stand rant - and, then, he continued ranting in a semi-coherent manner. According to the MP, Kaczyński has repeatedly threatened that "they will all go to prison".

Ladies and gentlemen, the current ruler of Poland 

[TheGlyphstone]

Heil Kaczyński?

[Beorning]

The saddest thing? PiS still has a high voter support, around 40%. Meaning, so many people are okay with what's going on...

BTW. Here's how the close vicinity of the Parliament looks like right now. Cops standing every few meters, barriers - and protesters slowly gathering:

https://twitter.com/tomaszfenske/status/887718898992394241/photo/1

[gaggedLouise]

Poland seriously sounds worse than at any time post-1989. 

[Sara Nilsson]

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/19/health/gupta-mccain-glioblastoma/index.html

McCain has brain cancer. Which explains his behavior lately with mixing up names etc.