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Author Topic: What's in the news?  (Read 172102 times)

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Offline KalebHyde

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3550 on: July 08, 2016, 03:31:10 AM »
Five police officers assassinated, 6 others wounded simply for protecting the rights of citizens to peacefully protest.  I don't honestly believe anyone who would even attempt to justify any of this should be listened to any more than the most vile white supremist group would be.  Police are made up of individuals just as any other group, and for anyone to claim to be 'going to war' with them, whether it be BLM supporters, domestic terrorists, or someone 'stirring the pot', only puts everyone in danger.  Some people claim officers are 'trigger happy' but it's likely any human would be on edge when the people they are sworn to serve are constantly out to take either their badge or their life.  Of course there are bad cops, though the courts have proven incidents from Ferguson to Baltimore to be overblown, and the two most recent incidents look suspicious, but that is for a court to decide not someone likely stirred up by rising racial tensions.

Going forward, I have to wonder where the outraged national protests in the name of these fallen officers will rise up.  Will Dallas be burned down in their name?  No, I don't think so nor should it, but part of me wonders why.  I guess, to certain groups, their lives mean nothing, just something to shrug off while they demand heaven and earth be moved for others.  This country is headed down a dark road when we so greatly antagonize those we hope will protect us.  There have always been corrupt individuals in positions of authority but, when one claims everyone in such position as the same, they are no better than the most despised racist or sexist.  "They're all the same!" is never acceptable, whatever the context.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3551 on: July 08, 2016, 03:43:37 AM »
Five police officers assassinated, 6 others wounded simply for protecting the rights of citizens to peacefully protest.  I don't honestly believe anyone who would even attempt to justify any of this should be listened to any more than the most vile white supremist group would be.  Police are made up of individuals just as any other group, and for anyone to claim to be 'going to war' with them, whether it be BLM supporters, domestic terrorists, or someone 'stirring the pot', only puts everyone in danger.  Some people claim officers are 'trigger happy' but it's likely any human would be on edge when the people they are sworn to serve are constantly out to take either their badge or their life.  Of course there are bad cops, though the courts have proven incidents from Ferguson to Baltimore to be overblown, and the two most recent incidents look suspicious, but that is for a court to decide not someone likely stirred up by rising racial tensions.

Going forward, I have to wonder where the outraged national protests in the name of these fallen officers will rise up.  Will Dallas be burned down in their name?  No, I don't think so nor should it, but part of me wonders why.  I guess, to certain groups, their lives mean nothing, just something to shrug off while they demand heaven and earth be moved for others.  This country is headed down a dark road when we so greatly antagonize those we hope will protect us.  There have always been corrupt individuals in positions of authority but, when one claims everyone in such position as the same, they are no better than the most despised racist or sexist.  "They're all the same!" is never acceptable, whatever the context.

*slaps at him* Shhh! You're representing strawmen as actual human beings, stop that! The world doesn't like ambiguity, it makes it harder to hate people!

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3552 on: July 08, 2016, 04:29:08 AM »
There will be demonstrations in support of the fallen officers.  Every police department and law enforcement agency is going to acknowledge these murders of their brethren with a physical presence at the funerals and memorials that will be made public.  The snipers may be hailed as heroes by people who think the police are out of control but in the days ahead they will be tracked down and apprehended.  That in and of itself is another demonstration of support.

All we can do is pray for the families, co-workers and friend if that is our way or do what needs to be done to keep the peace.

 


Offline Aethereal

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3553 on: July 08, 2016, 05:19:00 AM »
Quote
This is a terrible accident, but don't lose sight that this was an accident. People can be high-strung and stressed. As perfect as officer should be acting, sometimes, they lose their own cool. I don't think this police officer shot the man on purpose. He should be tried and judged, but this shouldn't be treated as if the police force as a whole is out to shoot people. Horrible as this is, accidents happen. Police brutality implies explicit intent, as far as I can tell by this whole situation and the footage, this officer was stressed out over something and acted on a very bad impulse. Maybe the mere mention of the man that he admitted to having a weapon triggered some kind of fear reflex in the officer? Something that should be removed through training, but not everyone has the same mental fortitude...
       It ceases to be an accident on the moment people just stand around for minutes on end and have a good person bleed to death before their loved ones' eyes and no one does anything to rectify their error. It's the same kind of difference as there is between accidentally running over a pedestrian and immediately stopping to check on them and call an ambulance, and running over a pedestrian and then hightailing out.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3554 on: July 08, 2016, 05:48:09 AM »
       It ceases to be an accident on the moment people just stand around for minutes on end and have a good person bleed to death before their loved ones' eyes and no one does anything to rectify their error. It's the same kind of difference as there is between accidentally running over a pedestrian and immediately stopping to check on them and call an ambulance, and running over a pedestrian and then hightailing out.

The case you present is still an accident. The fact that the person failed to take responsibility does not change the fact that it was an accident. It can only be one of two things: intentional or accidental. By claiming it is an accident, I do not mean to imply this should somehow make it seem less grave. This man made an error with terrible consequences and needs to be tried for it, making is involuntary manslaughter. More than anything, this proves a lack of training and perhaps a lack of mental profiling where this person is concerned.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3555 on: July 08, 2016, 06:28:29 AM »
This is a terrible accident, but don't lose sight that this was an accident. People can be high-strung and stressed. As perfect as officer should be acting, sometimes, they lose their own cool.

  This stance ignores the fact the police seem to lose their cool with black people much more than white people (3.02 blacks killed by police / million compared to 1.32 white death / million), so people rightfully expect a bit more than "they're not perfect" to explain that discrepancy. That was a key point of Jesse Williams's speech at the BET award: police seem to be much more willing to try and deescalate a situation with a white suspect.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3556 on: July 08, 2016, 06:46:08 AM »
  This stance ignores the fact the police seem to lose their cool with black people much more than white people (3.02 blacks killed by police / million compared to 1.32 white death / million), so people rightfully expect a bit more than "they're not perfect" to explain that discrepancy. That was a key point of Jesse Williams's speech at the BET award: police seem to be much more willing to try and deescalate a situation with a white suspect.

Still does not make it any less an accident. The officer in question might have wrongfully assumed that the person in front of him - being black - was more likely to be violent, and would thus be adhering to racist beliefs given the neighborhood he was in, which certainly did not seem some kind of gang territory, but he still did not shoot the man just because he felt like it. The motivation remains accidental. And even then, I'm not convinced this is racially motivated.
Additionally, the numbers you just gave me mean nothing without context. Who were the people that got shot? Where did they come from? What were they doing before they got shot? Who was the officer who took the shot? And so on. I care less about their skin color and more on what happened to put them in the position where they were staring down the barrel of a law enforcement officer's gun.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3557 on: July 08, 2016, 06:54:14 AM »
Additionally, the numbers you just gave me mean nothing without context.

  No, the statistics "black people are 2.28 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people" in a scale as large as "the whole of USA" does mean something without any further context, you're just doing your best to not see it.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3558 on: July 08, 2016, 06:56:34 AM »
  No, the statistics "black people are 2.28 times more likely to be killed by the police than white people" in a scale as large as "the whole of USA" does mean something without any further context, you're just doing your best to not see it.

Ah yes, of course. Better educate me then. Because me not accepting those statistics without context also automatically means I don't believe African-Americans are being unfairly targeted. Even though I do. But everything's always so simple when you just boil it all down to a matter of skin tone and nothing else, isn't it?

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3559 on: July 08, 2016, 07:03:18 AM »
Ah yes, of course. Better educate me then. Because me not accepting those statistics without context also automatically means I don't believe African-Americans are being unfairly targeted. Even though I do. But everything's always so simple when you just boil it all down to a matter of skin tone and nothing else, isn't it?

 What are you talking about? What do you mean by "accept" those statistics? Accept they exist? That would be nice. Accept they mean all cops are rascist? No. Accept that these statistics, rather than being meaningless, heavily imply a racial bias to police operational behavior, which in all previous posts you have done your best to downplay? Yes, that would have been nice.

  You've done this before. You doubt a narrative, pushing that it isn't true, then when called out on that play the mistreated skeptic, not realizing that skeptic is a neutral ("Do those statistics acount for X, Y and Z" - a skeptic vs. "those statistics are meaningless" - not a skeptic). You will always be able to request more context, so claiming statistics are meaningless without context is just a good way to dismiss stats you don't like.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3560 on: July 08, 2016, 07:19:58 AM »
What are you talking about? What do you mean by "accept" those statistics? Accept they exist? That would be nice. Accept they mean all cops are rascist? No. Accept that these statistics, rather than being meaningless, heavily imply a racial bias to police operational behavior, which in all previous posts you have done your best to downplay? Yes, that would have been nice.

Accept that they mean exactly what you want them to mean without context to the numbers. That they imply a racial bias is a given, but the why and what are much more important, which is something you can only start looking into when the numbers are given context. Until then, they're just numbers.
As for downplay, yes, I suppose I have, because in the past decade or so, whenever a mistake is made and an innocent is shot, the police officer in question is demonized. So forgive me for trying to make sure this person, however in the wrong he is, doesn't get turned into someone who should be burned at the proverbial stake.

  You've done this before. You doubt a narrative, pushing that it isn't true, then when called out on that play the mistreated skeptic, not realizing that skeptic is a neutral ("Do those statistics acount for X, Y and Z" - a skeptic vs. "those statistics are meaningless" - not a skeptic). You will always be able to request more context, so claiming statistics are meaningless without context is just a good way to dismiss stats you don't like.

1: Doubting a narrative and pushing that it isn't true are two different things, I did the former, not the latter.
2: Those statistics are meaningless without context because they say precious little on their own.
3: Asking for more context on these numbers does not mean I will do so forever, there is a difference between no and some context.
4: "play the mistreated skeptic card"? What even is that? What does that have to do with anything?
5: And finally, I did not dismiss them, not even in the slightest, you just threw numbers at me and that's it, tell me more about them and then we can talk.

So keep your personal jabs to yourself and actually try to prove me wrong instead of putting words in my mouth such as first claiming I don't believe in racial bias and then claiming I dismiss statistics I don't like. If you cannot, then this conversation is over.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3561 on: July 08, 2016, 07:31:21 AM »
Accept that they mean exactly what you want them to mean without context to the numbers. That they imply a racial bias is a given

  If they imply something, they're not meaningless.

1: Doubting a narrative and pushing that it isn't true are two different things, I did the former, not the latter.

  You never once mentioned race 0 times and "accident" 3 times when responding to la dame en noir. That's not doubting a narrative, that's dismissing it.

2: Those statistics are meaningless without context because they say precious little on their own.

  The context is "all of the USA". Please outline a plausible scenario in which context changes statistics from such a broad scope to subvert the meaning. Are you advocating the violent subculture theory, or believe social conditions could account for a discrepancy in excess of 100%?

4: "play the mistreated skeptic card"? What even is that? What does that have to do with anything?

  You have unreasonable requests for evidence people you debate with, downplay evidence they offer and when you get called out on it claiming you "are just being skeptic". For example:

So keep your personal jabs to yourself and actually try to prove me wrong instead of putting words in my mouth such as first claiming I don't believe in racial bias and then claiming I dismiss statistics I don't like.

  What do you mean personal jabs? Please provide 3 examples and have at least 2 have posters on E to correlate such an idea, or stop with your accusations, which are meaningless on their own. What, I'm just being skeptical of your claims, that's good isn't it? (Just to be clear, the requested evidence isn't serious, but it is pretty much what it feels like for me to debate with you).

Offline Avis habilis

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3562 on: July 08, 2016, 07:38:19 AM »
That's enough out of both of you. If you've think a post has violated site rules of conduct, hit the handy "Report to Moderator" link at the bottom. An in-thread pissing match isn't one of the choices.

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3563 on: July 08, 2016, 07:42:35 AM »
That's enough out of both of you. If you've think a post has violated site rules of conduct, hit the handy "Report to Moderator" link at the bottom. An in-thread pissing match isn't one of the choices.

I do not think LisztesFerenc has broken any rules of conduct, nor that he was conducting a pissing match. But I will not post an additional reply to him.

Online LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3564 on: July 08, 2016, 07:48:25 AM »
  I likewise don't think Renegade Vile broke the code of conduct. As for the pissing match, we probably were.

Offline Beguile's Mistress

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3565 on: July 08, 2016, 09:57:07 AM »
One shooter, the man killed in a standoff with police and who said he "wanted to kill white people, especially white officers", has been identified.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/07/08/like-a-little-war-snipers-shoot-11-police-officers-during-dallas-protest-march-killing-five/?wpisrc=al_alert-national

Quote
The Dallas police chief said an attacker told authorities “he was upset about the recent police shootings” and “wanted to kill white people, especially white officers.”

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3566 on: July 08, 2016, 11:53:33 AM »
Apparently Joe Walsh, who is a former congressman (!) and a tea party radio talk show host, went out of his way on twitter last night to say that "Real America" was coming after president Obama and the Black Lives Matter campaign - and hinting that Obama was engaged in a race war. Sheesh. >:( The tweet has since been blanked.   

*checks Wikipedia* Oh boy...A week ago, Walsh had informed the world on twitter that "The single greatest act of racism in American history was the election of Barack Obama." *facepalm*
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 12:07:48 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Dallas

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3567 on: July 08, 2016, 12:09:41 PM »
What I find sad about this is that the police in Dallas seemed to be doing the right thing by letting peaceful protest continue without violence, according to reports I've seen. Even taking pictures with protestors and stuff like that. Then that massacre happened.

Makes me feel a little bit better that the BLM protest group is apparently condemning that attack. I support the core (intended) message of BLM, but people taking matters into their own hands through violence is hurting that movement's goal. Martin Luther King Jr. would have had none of this. This hate only breeds more of it, and only serves to give more "cause" for people's bigotry and fear (white, black, etc).

I am trying to find the link with pictures that I saw with cops smiling beside protestors with BLM sign. It looked like it was going very civil until everything happened.

Edit: Derp... the "Continue Reading" tab shows the tweet with the photo I saw.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 12:14:23 PM by Dallas »

Offline Aiden

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3568 on: July 08, 2016, 12:31:57 PM »
Here is a dosage of rage inducing comments brought to you by the internet about Dallas


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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3569 on: July 08, 2016, 12:36:16 PM »
Here is a dosage of rage inducing comments brought to you by the internet about Dallas


*long tired sigh* Moments like this make me think Humanity as a whole isn't worthy of a good afterlife. 

Perhaps God stays in heaven because even he fears what he has created.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 12:43:35 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Dallas

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3570 on: July 08, 2016, 12:38:52 PM »
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness, only Light can do that. Hate cannot drive out Hate, only Love can do that." - Martin Luther King, Jr.

I wonder how he would feel about this if he were alive today.  -_-

Offline Renegade Vile

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3571 on: July 08, 2016, 12:48:04 PM »
I wonder how he would feel about this if he were alive today.  -_-

Like a lot of people, he'd be ashamed for humanity, and I don't just mean fellow African-Americans, he would be ashamed for all of us.

Offline Dallas

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3572 on: July 08, 2016, 12:57:52 PM »
I believe he'd be disheartened, at least. I mean, I feel like we've conquered all of these barriers that held us back in the past. And some of us are together on this, some of us just... still aren't. Anyway... I contributed what I found related to this. I don't stay in PROC too long. But I hope you all have a good evening.  :-)

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3573 on: July 08, 2016, 01:11:31 PM »
MLK not only believed violence was not the answer he believed violence only made the problems worse.  Every time I hear someone speak and use his name and not plead and pray for peace and patience I think hypocrite.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 03:11:22 PM by Beguile's Mistress »

Offline MiraMirror

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #3574 on: July 08, 2016, 01:17:30 PM »
This is not the way, people. :/ This just makes me sad on an entirely different level.