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Author Topic: What's in the news?  (Read 171883 times)

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Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1000 on: May 19, 2015, 03:48:13 PM »
It was to some but also freed those countries from the Nazi's as we discussed before and without the Soviet Union, countries like the Baltic States and Poland would be far worse off than they are today.

But of course, that's just Russian propaganda..

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1001 on: May 19, 2015, 04:05:38 PM »
It sticks in my craw that we're forced to treat the man as a politician.  I fully accept that the alternative is far far worse, but still.  Not as bad as when McGuinness met the Queen, but still annoying.

I suspect a lot of Irish feel rather similarly in the other direction. 

The point, however, is that the leaders and the forces they represent are talking and compromising, rather than trying to kill each other and taking out a lot of innocents in the crossfire.  Having studied the Troubles a fair bit...meh, there are no clean hands there.  But the idea that, after centuries of bitter violence, there may be a lasting peace is pretty awesome.  I wish we could see something like this in the middle east. 

It was to some but also freed those countries from the Nazi's as we discussed before and without the Soviet Union, countries like the Baltic States and Poland would be far worse off than they are today.

But of course, that's just Russian propaganda..

Surely you understand the argument that the countries were invaded and occupied for their benefit is unlikely to inspire much sympathy?  *Tries to imagine the USA overthrowing a country with the slogan: "We're better than the Nazis!"* 

And the sarcasm is simply trolling. 

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1002 on: May 19, 2015, 04:05:51 PM »
It was to some but also freed those countries from the Nazi's as we discussed before and without the Soviet Union, countries like the Baltic States and Poland would be far worse off than they are today.

But of course, that's just Russian propaganda..

Dash, the point you keep missing is that while we certainly had no future under the Nazis, we certainly didn't benefit from the Soviet rule, either. Yes, the Soviets defeated the Nazis, but they also forcefully installed puppet governments that oppressed the people across the formerly-free states of Central and Eastern Europe. Do you realize how many people died back here because of the Stalinist government that was put in place after our country was "freed"? Also, do you realize how much our country's growth was stalled because of the Communist rule?

And even speaking of the issue of the Red Army "freeing" us - you do realize that it wasn't always that clear? For example, do you realize that the Red Army declined to help the Warsaw Uprising and watched the whole city get massacred by the Germans? Do you realize how many people died because of the Red Army's politically-motivated inaction?

Finally, I just don't understand how you can overlook the fact that, back in the 1939, the Soviet Union *helped Hitler conquer us*. You say we should be grateful for the Soviets freeing us - but do you realize that we might not have been in any need of being freed, if the Soviet Union didn't invade us in the middle of us defending ourselves from the Nazis?

I really don't want to start another discussion, but it constantly amazes me how you can have so little conception of the Soviet Union's negative influence on the region.

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1003 on: May 19, 2015, 04:16:50 PM »

Surely you understand the argument that the countries were invaded and occupied for their benefit is unlikely to inspire much sympathy?  *Tries to imagine the USA overthrowing a country with the slogan: "We're better than the Nazis!"* 

And the sarcasm is simply trolling.

So overthrowing a country's government, simply because they do not live their lives to the US standards is perfectly alright? Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc..

Speaking of trolling.


I really don't want to start another discussion, but it constantly amazes me how you can have so little conception of the Soviet Union's negative influence on the region.

I have the same amazement, only the other way around but you are right. Let's not discuss that here.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1004 on: May 19, 2015, 04:24:57 PM »
So overthrowing a country's government, simply because they do not live their lives to the US standards is perfectly alright? Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc..

  Did anyone in this thread say USA foreign policy and general warmongering was a-okay and perfect?

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1005 on: May 19, 2015, 05:00:10 PM »
So overthrowing a country's government, simply because they do not live their lives to the US standards is perfectly alright? Iran, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc..

Issues with US foreign policy (of which I have plenty as well) don't really have much to do with why Poland should have appreciation for being invaded and split apart by a deal between Stalin and Hitler and then occupied for decades afterward, nor with Russia's current involvement in the Ukraine. 

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1006 on: May 19, 2015, 05:11:00 PM »
Issues with US foreign policy (of which I have plenty as well) don't really have much to do with why Poland should have appreciation for being invaded and split apart by a deal between Stalin and Hitler and then occupied for decades afterward, nor with Russia's current involvement in the Ukraine.

Indeed. The US foreign policy has nothing to do with Russia's involvement in the Ukraine.

Answer me this then... why then was that old fool Kerry in Sochi? Why was he sent to talk to Putin and Lavrov if the US foreign policy has nothing to with Russia's involvement in Ukraine?



Stalin was an idiot. Victorious, but an idiot nonetheless. All the bad things that happened to Poland and the Baltic States after Stalin, are equalled by all the things those countries have gotten from the Soviet Union. It might not have been riches and wealth, something I know a lot Western countries measure by, but they got stability, something I think those countries needed. Iraq and Afghanistan are prime examples of what would have happened with Poland after the war if the Soviet Union didn't install their government.

If you believe Poland would have been better off without the Soviet Union, you might watch a programme called 'the news'. It's full of examples of what would likely have happened to Poland if they had been left to their own after the war. You know this Beorning. You know how politics work.

Offline LisztesFerenc

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1007 on: May 19, 2015, 05:26:42 PM »
If you believe Poland would have been better off without the Soviet Union, you might watch a programme called 'the news'. It's full of examples of what would likely have happened to Poland if they had been left to their own after the war. You know this Beorning. You know how politics work.

  Maybe, maybe not. They would have received money under the Marshal Plan, Holland and Belgium turned out mostly okay without the need for foreign occupation, and the Eastern bloc seemed to be manage after WW1. Sure it was tough, but it was a recession, countries without foreign occupation were suffering too.

  Besides, that's not really the point. Even if Poland would have been worse off without Soviet Occupation, you still need to give countries and their people their free will, and you do not take it away unless they did something wrong. You cannot imprison a homeless man on the rationale that they will be living in better circumstances this way, they still need to have committed a crime.

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1008 on: May 19, 2015, 05:31:09 PM »
  Maybe, maybe not. They would have received money under the Marshal Plan, Holland and Belgium turned out mostly okay without the need for foreign occupation, and the Eastern bloc seemed to be manage after WW1. Sure it was tough, but it was a recession, countries without foreign occupation were suffering too.

  Besides, that's not really the point. Even if Poland would have been worse off without Soviet Occupation, you still need to give countries and their people their free will, and you do not take it away unless they did something wrong. You cannot imprison a homeless man on the rationale that they will be living in better circumstances this way, they still need to have committed a crime.

The Netherlands and Belgium were Kingdoms, they always had more stability to start off with.

And I don't agree with the free will if the free will has a high chance to fail. The more money they would have gotten, the more corrupt their leaders would have been.

Offline BeorningTopic starter

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1009 on: May 19, 2015, 05:33:27 PM »
All the bad things that happened to Poland and the Baltic States after Stalin, are equalled by all the things those countries have gotten from the Soviet Union. It might not have been riches and wealth, something I know a lot Western countries measure by, but they got stability, something I think those countries needed. Iraq and Afghanistan are prime examples of what would have happened with Poland after the war if the Soviet Union didn't install their government.

If you believe Poland would have been better off without the Soviet Union, you might watch a programme called 'the news'. It's full of examples of what would likely have happened to Poland if they had been left to their own after the war. You know this Beorning. You know how politics work.

I really didn't want to come back to this discussion, but this one thing just needs to be addressed.

Dash, you might not realize it, but there was a *completely legitimate and stable* Polish government operating in London during WW2. Furthermore, there were legitimate Polish authorities operating in the Polish territory itself: the Home Army, which acted on the London government's orders. There was no need for any Soviet-supported government to be installed by Stalin. There would be no post-war chaos, not Afghanistan scenario or anything like this. We would be perfectly fine.

Stalin didn't create the Communist government in Poland because of some sort of power vacuum that would lead to chaos. No, he actually had the legimate Polish leaders arrested and killed when the war was coming to a close. Also, even since 1939, the Soviets were murdering the representatives of Polish elite, like captured military officers, policemen, intelligentsia membes and priests. Again, please read on the Katyń Massacre...

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1010 on: May 19, 2015, 06:06:01 PM »
Again, you're using a straw man argument rather than debating.  We were discussing why Poland should be appreciative they were saved from Hitler by this

why then was that old fool Kerry in Sochi?

Well, for one thing to secure the release of two Americans the separatists claimed they'd released but hadn't, which is the sort of thing he OUGHT to be doing.  Beyond that - I assume trying to get Russia to not invade another country and help end the regional violence?  I'm unclear why an American desire for Russia not to invade another country would be a legitimate reason to invade another country. 

Iraq and Afghanistan are prime examples of what would have happened with Poland after the war if the Soviet Union didn't install their government.

Actually, I think both Afghanistan and Iraq - and eastern Ukraine - are excellent examples of why creating imperialist subject-nations tends to lead to endemic violence and destabilization.  France had been split apart, had two opposing governments, and somehow managed to coalesce into a fairly stable, prosperous independent nation and world power.  Western Germany didn't exactly have the greatest basis for a post-war government and managed the same.  Poland had a clear national identity and functional government before the war; I'm not aware of any solid reasons they would have inevitably plummeted into chaos nor of any moment when it seemed like they might be given the chance not to. 

If you believe Poland would have been better off without the Soviet Union, you might watch a programme called 'the news'.

Again, the sarcasm doesn't come across as anything but petty trolling, and reflects badly upon you.

The more money they would have gotten, the more corrupt their leaders would have been.


Russia had far more resources and wealth than an independent Poland, so that argument doesn't hold; nor is there a lack of correlation between national wealth and stability. 
« Last Edit: May 19, 2015, 06:12:00 PM by eBadger »

Online Blythe

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1011 on: May 19, 2015, 06:59:30 PM »
News today...

Been reading quite a bit about the large gang shootout/brawl in Waco, Texas. So many arrests made and over 170 bikers criminally charged. O_O

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1012 on: May 19, 2015, 07:32:16 PM »
News today...

Been reading quite a bit about the large gang shootout/brawl in Waco, Texas. So many arrests made and over 170 bikers criminally charged. O_O

I hate idiots like these men, they ruin the fun of biker culture and roaming around on a powerful piece of machinery, the wind in your hair and only the road before you.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1013 on: May 19, 2015, 07:33:41 PM »
It sticks in my craw that we're forced to treat the man as a politician.  I fully accept that the alternative is far far worse, but still.  Not as bad as when McGuinness met the Queen, but still annoying.

I know. There are several folks who would like to conclusively pin his position as a commander in the PROVOS on him. I also know there are a few folks that wish he'd come clean about the disappeared family members a lot of folks think he knows about.

Online Callie Del Noire

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1014 on: May 19, 2015, 07:40:25 PM »
The Netherlands and Belgium were Kingdoms, they always had more stability to start off with.

And I don't agree with the free will if the free will has a high chance to fail. The more money they would have gotten, the more corrupt their leaders would have been.

And you're saying that letting the biggest bunch of Oligarachs in the region take over would DIMINISH corruption?

Offline Dice

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1015 on: May 19, 2015, 11:32:58 PM »
It was to some but also freed those countries from the Nazi's

Because the people where so happy to be freed from the Nazi's by those that then did this...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1247157/How-survivors-Auschwitz-escaped-nightmare-faced-unimaginable-ordeal.html

Also there is the interesting fact that most of the early occupation of the Germans in Russia was accepted with open arms by much of the common people. People wanted to be free of the Russian government. This whole period is totally fucked. No one in their right mind should be arguing that Russia was helping these people any more than someone should be arguing that the transport of slaves to the US was helping them.

Offline Kythia

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1016 on: May 19, 2015, 11:43:43 PM »
Having studied the Troubles a fair bit...meh, there are no clean hands there. 

Errrrm.  I suspect this is badly phrased?  Because as it stands this...this just isn't true.  There are both unionist and republican figures who have clean hands.  Many, the majority in fact, of them.  Further, while there are (and even more so were) some deeply deeply unpleasant unionist politicians, claiming a moral equivalence between them and, in particular, Martin McGuinness is mistaken.

As I say, I accept that arresting him would be a terrible idea, but that doesn't make him not guilty it simply makes realpolitik trump justice.  I am at an absolute loss to know who you are referring to in your "suspect many Irish people feel the same in the other direction" comment.  You seem to be saying everyone was as bad as one another which is emphatically not the case, and while I accept there's a lot of value to the approach that's going on in the province that doesn't mean history didn't happen, simply that we've decided to move on from it.

Offline eBadger

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1017 on: May 20, 2015, 12:34:35 AM »
Errrrm.  I suspect this is badly phrased?  Because as it stands this...this just isn't true.  There are both unionist and republican figures who have clean hands.  Many, the majority in fact, of them.  Further, while there are (and even more so were) some deeply deeply unpleasant unionist politicians, claiming a moral equivalence between them and, in particular, Martin McGuinness is mistaken.

As I say, I accept that arresting him would be a terrible idea, but that doesn't make him not guilty it simply makes realpolitik trump justice.  I am at an absolute loss to know who you are referring to in your "suspect many Irish people feel the same in the other direction" comment.  You seem to be saying everyone was as bad as one another which is emphatically not the case, and while I accept there's a lot of value to the approach that's going on in the province that doesn't mean history didn't happen, simply that we've decided to move on from it.

To quote the queen on the subject, "With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all." 

My comment about unclean hands was specifically about the handshake, which I think is symbolic of the tolerance and, hopefully, growing mutual respect of Republican and Unionist leadership.  Taking those into account, no, I don't see clean hands.  Certainly not in the monarchy.  There are obviously varying levels of culpability, but I don't see anyone there who invariably took a stand for individual rights, freedom, and equality free of political agenda or bias.   

If Adams, McGuinness, Sinn Fein, the Provos, etc. are monsters, it invites the question of what circumstances made the Irish people see these monsters as heroes. 

I can also objectively look back at 3,500 deaths over three decades of secessionist violence and recognize that things could have been much, much worse (estimates in Ukraine are around 6,000 in less than a year).  Choices by both sides likewise served to limit that.  It was a culture of violence, but it was not unchecked savagery. 

I once had the honor of listening to a Sailor decorated for service in Pearl Harbor candidly discuss his meeting, while revisiting the memorials there, with several former members of the Japanese Imperial Army/Navy who were also touring.  His account was quite complimentary; they spent most of a day together.  He finished with the declaration that they all had perfectly good reasons to kill each other, and were quite glad they didn't any more.  I feel that same comment applies to the Troubles. 

Offline Aethereal

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1018 on: May 20, 2015, 12:37:49 AM »
Quote
It was to some but also freed those countries from the Nazi's as we discussed before and without the Soviet Union, countries like the Baltic States and Poland would be far worse off than they are today.
        For at least my country, the Nazis were actually by far the lesser of two evils, as evidenced by both records and the accounts of people old enough to remember the era. For Nazis, my country was some fringe area they didn't really care to do much with, and the people there were mostly of the "acceptable" variety and thus largely left alone. Unless you were Yew or Romani (both which were very small minorities), you mostly only had to fear being drafted and made to fight on some foreign ground you didn't know anything about (which meant you had to leave and were very likely to get killed - but that's also something both sides did, and from what I've heard, the conditions in the Nazi army were generally somewhat better).
          There was a period where people genuinely hoped that the "Germans" would liberate them of the red Soviet tyranny (which had already killed, incarcerated and abused many by that point . Briefly, it appeared that they had succeeded and my country was free ... and then they just kind of stuck around instead of going away. So yeah. The Red Terror was gone for the time being, and plenty of people were glad for even just that, even if we had a new occupier. An admittedly less cruel occupier who left the people mostly alone - which was still not ideal, but definitely better.
         And then the Soviets came back, defeated the combined forces of both natives and Nazi Germans, and then the mass-killings and deportations truly began. I don't know a single person aged 70+ who did not lose at least a few relatives or friends to not war, but simple senseless murder at that time. People being lined up and shot was commonplace, and it was done almost-publicly. Others were deported - including my grandmother's best friend and my grandfather's older siblings (a fifth of the country's entire native population was deported). At other time, my entire fathers' side of family was sentenced to death,  and they only survived because the people next door were shot in their stead and no one bothered to do any checking of anything later on. They were "dead" until much later when the administration had changed and no one cared enough to retroactively carry through the sentence. It isn't even certain whether the people who carried through the execution didn't pick another house just because my family wasn't currently at home.
        Not even the Russian people who were deported in had easy time. A friend with Russian heritage has confirmed that it was basically his family being told that "OK, you go live and work there now, no questions" - they did not have a choice in the matter, either. They had to leave their home in Russia behind, they had to go to some weird little "Soviet country", they had to yield most of their things, live amongst people who could not even speak proper Russian despite being forcefully made to speak it, had their surnames butchered since the clerks who registered them didn't know how to transcribe Russian surnames into Latin-alphabeted ones...
      Then general things like harsh censorship, interrogations, imprisonments for liking wrong things (even quite late into the era) questionable economical decisions, confiscations of property and sources of food, et cetera, et cetera.

      Eh ... but at least the children were provided with stuff for hobbies? Building model planes was practically free.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 12:39:42 AM by Shienvien »

Offline Kythia

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1019 on: May 20, 2015, 01:06:58 AM »
Eh. It's probably at the stage where this needs two new threads . One for Russia and one for Northern Ireland. Assuming both those conversations are continuing, I'm not sure how much more life they have?

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1020 on: May 20, 2015, 01:26:37 AM »
Eh. It's probably at the stage where this needs two new threads . One for Russia and one for Northern Ireland. Assuming both those conversations are continuing, I'm not sure how much more life they have?

Nods in agreement, and considering that Porozhenko said yesterday that Ukraine is now clearly in a state of war with Russia (after two Russian soldiers had been captured in the eastern Ukrainian area of unrest) it looks like the Ukraine topic at least is going to stay around for a while longer. I understand he has been careful not to openly define the situation as a "war" earlier (as distinct from meddling or hostilities)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2015, 01:35:15 AM by gaggedLouise »

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1021 on: May 20, 2015, 02:15:13 AM »
I'll gladly take this into a PM discussion for those interested.

You have your opinions and experiences, I have mine. We all base it on stories from our ancestors as none of us have actually been there.

You don't like Russia ('s government), I think they do what needs to be done to keep the country together.

Let's leave it at that or discuss it somewhere else.

Offline Aethereal

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1022 on: May 20, 2015, 03:04:38 AM »
Quote
You have your opinions and experiences, I have mine. We all base it on stories from our ancestors as none of us have actually been there.
       Depends on how old you are. I am actually old enough to have seen the final years of the Soviet era myself...

       Russia doesn't necessarily equal Soviet, but I do maintain that Russian government has made a lot of very questionable decisions, be it their own internal affairs, Georgia, Ukraine, or other countries near them. My Russian friends have let me know that there is a lot of BS going on there even from their viewpoint.

Offline Warlock

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1023 on: May 20, 2015, 03:39:52 AM »
Searching for ''Nigga House'' in Google Maps leads you to the White House. Last I heard, Google Maps had apologized but it still seems to be a valid search term.

Despite the racist nature, I must admit to chuckling when I first read the news. It's so wonderful in that reality distorted sense.

Offline Dashenka

Re: What's in the news?
« Reply #1024 on: May 20, 2015, 03:52:33 AM »
I am actually old enough to have seen the final years of the Soviet era myself...

So have I.

Every government makes questionable decisions but you never hear anything about those decisions made in countries like Germany, the Netherlands or the UK.

*bows out*