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Author Topic: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse  (Read 1091 times)

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Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« on: September 08, 2014, 08:07:58 PM »
Operation Trojan Horse really belongs in its own topic, as it revolves around a specific controversy

As instructed, I have started a new thread for discussion about this issue.  It is of particular value to me since I am familiar with this area of Birmingham (having grown up as a kid for a few years roundabouts that area).  I have paraphrased/copied my earlier thoughts on the subject below.

Paraphrase/Copy of What was Discussed Previously
Operation Trojan Horse was an effort to slowly introduce elements of Islam into the schools through curricular modifications.  The Park View Educational Trust which runs six public schools in Birmingham, UK (chaired by Tahir Alam), wrote a 72 page PDF document detailing a plan for the "Islamisation" of secular state school through the introduction of religious classes.  21 schools in Birmingham were victims of an organized campaign by Islamists, which aimed to marginalize and force out existing head teachers for their position, and replace them with Muslims.

Policies that were in some cases included were:

• Anti-Western rhetoric, particularly anti-US and anti-Israel;
• Segregationism – dividing the world into us and them, with them to include all non-Muslims and other Muslims who disagree;
• Perception of a worldwide conspiracy against Muslims;
• Attempts to impose its views and practices upon others;
• Intolerance of difference, whether the secular, other religions or other Muslims.

The two chief organizations behind this initiative were the Muslim Council of Britain, and the Association of Muslim Schools.  These are not fringe organizations, but arguably two of the more mainstream avenues for Muslim discourse in the Western world.  In the Vision & Aims Statement of AMS, it states, "our vision is to provide high quality services and support for the development of excellence in Muslim schools; nurturing love of knowledge, continuous pursuit of taqwa (God consciousness) and Ihsan (excellence) in all spheres of life for learners and educators."  I don't think anyone would take issue with this.  Muslim schools in the West are entitled to teach whatever Islamic lessons they so desire.  But it becomes problematic when the primary support organization for Muslim schools in the West is directly involved with a 20-year long initiative to spread segregation, Shariah philosophy, and anti-West rhetoric to secular public schools.

The Muslim Council of Britain was the organization that was perhaps more involved than AMS in this conspiracy.  According to their "About MCB" page, they are, "pledged to work for the common good of society as a whole; encouraging individual Muslims and Muslim organisations to play a full and participatory role in public life."  It is a noble purpose.  Many of us would be willing to support their initiatives, if not for the fact that they were covertly plotting an internal take over of various school districts in multiple UK cities.

Many Muslims have achieved very prominent positions in government and education in the UK, for example, based on this list of Councillors in Birmingham, UK.  Scan through those names, and count how many Muslims you see on there.  Tahir Alam was the head of the hierarchy in Birmingham.  The entire board of trustees at the school were dominated by Muslims.  Upon light of this Trojan Horse scheme, Alam and his entire board of trustees resigned.  The way things are at the moment, things are under blind eyes, largely because people are afraid of being perceived as racist.

Perhaps the worst part is that many of these plans were indeed put into action. 

Posters were found in the classrooms encouraging children to begin lessons with a Muslim prayer, one saying: “If you do not pray, you are worse than a kafir”, and staff reported that loudspeakers were set up in the school to broadcast a call to prayer.

Children were taught that all Christians are liars and attempts were made to introduce Sharia law in classrooms.  Schools put up posters warning children that if they didn't pray they would "go to hell", Christmas was cancelled and girls were taught that women who refused to have sex with their husbands would be "punished" by angels "from dusk to dawn".   Another teacher told the children that were "lucky to be Muslims and not ignorant like Christians and Jews.

In the elementary/primary schools, it was found that pupils had limited knowledge of any religion apart from Islam.  Subjects such as Personal, Social and Health Education, Biology and Sex and Relationships Education were bowdlerised to conform with a conservative Islamic teaching.  A former staff member said that one teacher had handed out a worksheet stating that women “must obey their husbands,” and told his class that wives were forbidden from refusing their husbands sex.

Keep in mind that the MCB (one of the most prominent avenues for communication of Islam in Great Britain), is the one responsible for this.  Check out their YouTube video - it portrays itself as very peaceful and welcoming.  This is why I express concern.


Feel free to continue discussion or add thoughts here.  What do you think are the long-term implications of such precedent (secular schools being transformed by Islam)?

Offline Zakharra

Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2014, 08:46:09 PM »
 It's kind of an interesting topic, and I will reply to what Formless said to my post in the other thread.

 My post:  From what I read off of the report on the Trojan horde report, some of the local authorities were aware, but kept their mouths shut for fear of being labeled as racist and anti-Islamic. But the for the rest of the outside authorities, they were unaware because the taken over governors and such tried to keep it quiet. Why? Because of the reaction that would have happened (and did) if the knowledge of what they were doing ever got out.

 I think you are missing one of the points Valthazar is trying to say; the muslim people on the governor positions of the school boards were trying to instill religious control on a secular school system. If I am right,  that is the issue. Not that they tried to bring awareness of the muslim religion, but that those people tried to put their religion in control of the schools. And that is a very very bad thing to have happen. From any religion..

 You seem to think it's alright if the school board and education ministries/departments are alright with that, but I find that view kind of suspect. Why should any religion be able to control the curriculum of a school system? Why should any religion be able to dictate what goes on in that school and what's taught? No religion has or should have that right or authority to do that.  If they want to teach that in their own private schools, ok I guess, but in secular schools? Hell no.


 Formless's reply:  It is alright because that is the country's matter ... Not mine. As an individual , I have no right to judge what a country choose to do on its own soil. That is the simple of it.

Let us say that after the wake of this Trojan incident , Britain chose to ban Islamic teachings from all schools. I wouldn't judge that either because it isn't my place to do so. There's a figure of authority for a reason. And its not my place to question what they do.

As for the disclusion of religion in schools. I agree that no religion should be singularly taught in schools. But rather , as much as can be taught. If the children grew up to realize there is a vast different in beliefs in the world , they'd be more accepting of such differences. A Saudi child would grow to know there's more religions than Christianity and Judaism. He should know there's far too many beliefs that people choose to follow.

But that is just a silly man's dream.

 The first part of his reply is what I am concerned about.  It wasn't the country's matter. The Trojan Horse stuff was going on under the radar so to speak. When it was brought to light, there was rightfully an uproar because those actions overstepped the boundaries of the authority of the governors of the schools and was against the Ministry of Education's guidelines. Britain's schools are supposed to be non-religious. The actions being taken by the Muslim Council of Britain, and the Association of Muslim Schools was against secular guidelines. They were trying to introduce religious control to the schools.

 That's not a matter of 'it's the country's matter'. It was a blatant somewhat undercover attempt to infiltrate (possibly a bad choice of words, but the only one I can think of that fits) and take over by replacing the governors and teachers with teachers that taught/followed their guidelines, not Britain's educational guidelines in an effort to religiously indoctrinate the children. Something that is, as far as I know, specifically against British rules and regulations.

 The actions and outcry by the public and politicians proves it was not something the country wanted. If it was, there would have been no outcry. But there was and to pass it off as 'it's the country 's matter' that it was happening in the manner you did comes across as excuse making. I'm sure that's not what you meant to sound like, but that's how it comes across as to me. Excuse making that those schools were being changed by replacing teachers and school governors to slip their own agenda into the school curriculum.

 

Offline Formless

Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2014, 11:20:08 AM »
I had to look into every aspect and articles I could find about this case to answer Zakharra's post.

First and foremost. I'll state this : I am against the teaching of a single religion in schools , but I encourage the idea of teaching multi-religions in schools.

With that said , What the Muslims involved in this Trojan Horse incident was wrong. The fact that made it look like some kind of covert mission that requires accomplishment in secrecy was the grandest mistake of it all.

I can clearly see Valthazar's reason for saying how Islam can be dangerous. The idea of how they wanted to spread Islamic influence to schools in such a way can easily label Islam as a tricky and deceitful faith.

From what I reviewed , there was no mention of any formal requests by those Muslims to add Islamic teachings to the schools. Be it for lack of sources on this matter , or that truly no one made such a request.

Also now that I am more enlightened about the issue , I can't help but feel sorry for any true Muslim. See these kind of operations can only bring a bad reputation to the religion. Because what did those Trojanists think? That by the end of their plan the world will just applaud their accomplishment? They vilified their own religion with that.

And on that note , their action are easily comparable to the events of 9/11. Before that day , Islam was ' just another faith ' in the media and among social cultures. But then along came an asshole who lost all hope to live and planned that attack. By which fucking mentality did an idiot think that a plan like that would spread Islam?

So ... By logic , those Trojanists are at fault from every side.

As for using the authority as an Excuse? Not really. When discussing a matter that concerns a country I am not affiliated to , There's three things to consider.

1- Does it goes against humanity?

2- Does it goes against Global laws? ( UN and the like ... )

3- Does it goes against that Country's laws.

So when the issue was first initiated , I actually thought the country was ok with it. And still should be handled by the authorities there.

I hope that clarifies my views on the topic.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 11:34:19 AM »
And that Formless is how you have greatly improved my view of Islam. Your willingness to call a duck a duck. Just like despite being a  Christian (Catholic) I call Westboro for example, a bunch of assholes.

Offline Formless

Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 02:23:09 PM »
I'm willing to call out a mistake when I see it.

I usually prefer to view an event from every possible angle. Well , at least being in a position of responsibility taught me that.

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2014, 09:09:09 PM »
Also now that I am more enlightened about the issue , I can't help but feel sorry for any true Muslim. See these kind of operations can only bring a bad reputation to the religion. Because what did those Trojanists think? That by the end of their plan the world will just applaud their accomplishment? They vilified their own religion with that.

Formless, as much as I know that there are individual Muslims who would not do this sort of thing, I don't know what basis we have to assume that such enormous coalitions of Muslims, together, would not try to expand their influence in a manner no different from Christianity (albeit far more extreme in this case).

The primary concern is that this whole thing was perpetrated by THE organization that was all about the very same things you are describing!  This was the organization that was intended to demonstrate the "true" peaceful, integrated, representative form of Islam to the Western world.  They conveyed this true nature of Islam as respecting British culture, and integrating the Muslim ways to create a coexistence between British and Muslim life.  They actually seem extremely accepting and tolerant compared to many other Muslim groups in the West.



I would trust these Muslims in a heartbeat, so it is very concerning to see that the entire leadership structure behind this group was behind this trojan horse endeavor.

Offline Formless

Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 11:18:25 AM »
A good cause can be used for a wicked agenda. Much like how these people used the religion's peaceful side to forward their agenda.

And I won't stop at that. Many charity groups across the world has used Islam as a front for them , so they would supply terrorist groups such as Al qaeda. It happen , it still does and its unfortunate that they still taint the religion with such heinous ways. ( Of course this also applies to any charity service that uses a religion as a front. Faith is a power tool of manipulation and influence. )

So when you look at the Trojan horse incident. There's a higher possibility that these Muslims wanted to have control over that section. You cannot discount the political side of that.

What they did was inexplicable. More harming to the image of Islam than what other groups are doing.

So , if you had any authority over the incident Valthazar , what would you propose to be done?

Offline Retribution

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 11:31:40 AM »
If I might pick your brain a bit Formeless. I am Catholic born and raised though not terribly devout the Church makes some decisions, has some policies, has dirty laundry (priests sexual abuse) that I have a -lot- of problems with. For example on the personal level my local Bishop while charismatic toes the party line a bit too hard for me and it turns me off. My local priest though is one of the kindest and most loving men I have ever meet. A man who regularly apologizes from the pulpit for the sins of other priests. And such things are matters the Catholic church has battled for ages while having a very distinct chain of command in place.

The impression I get when it comes to Islam is that there are such problems and more, but there is no real structure of command if you will to help address the issues as a whole. That the various holy men in the faith arise here and there and no one really answers to a common council and that in turn causes the development of many differing sects for lack of a better description. So in this case there was one group with nefarious plans so to speak and no one higher up the food chain to call them on it.

Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

Offline Formless

Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 11:49:43 AM »
The impression I get when it comes to Islam is that there are such problems and more, but there is no real structure of command if you will to help address the issues as a whole. That the various holy men in the faith arise here and there and no one really answers to a common council and that in turn causes the development of many differing sects for lack of a better description. So in this case there was one group with nefarious plans so to speak and no one higher up the food chain to call them on it.

Would you say this is an accurate assessment?

You're correct. Because there isn't.

Well nothing similar to the Christianity system. As I understand it , the Pope is the undeniable authority when it comes to Christianity. And any religious feuds within the christian faith can be appealed to him and resolved by his word. ( And if I am wrong in this assumption , I'd like for someone to correct me. )

However in Islam's case? There's really no ruling figure. And that is one of the reason why we have a group rising everytime claiming to be the purist and truest group of Muslims.

In Saudia , everyone says 'We're true because we're Muhammad's descendants , we have the custodians of the mosques and we really are minding our own business. We're the truest!'

Then you have the Brotherhood in Egypt who claims that they're the Purist group because they are much more strict in exacting the Islamic teachings and because their ancestors fought some decisive wars during the days that shaped Islam's history.

Then there's the Shi'a in Iran and the countries around them who claims that they are even more true because they have no fear to speak their Islamic agenda outloud to the western world.

The problem is ... The incident we have here , The Trojan Horse , Is a fault of an Islamic group. But who would anyone relate to , to ensure that this incident never happens or that the wicked ones be punished? None.

So you pretty much pointed out a great flaw right there Retribution. And what makes matters even worse is that none of the main sections I mentioned is willing to make the first move to establish a recognized front for the religion.

** Anything mentioned in this post is my own take on the matters.

Offline Kythia

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 11:55:57 AM »
You're correct. Because there isn't.

Well nothing similar to the Christianity system. As I understand it , the Pope is the undeniable authority when it comes to Christianity. And any religious feuds within the christian faith can be appealed to him and resolved by his word. ( And if I am wrong in this assumption , I'd like for someone to correct me. )


Replace "Christianity" with "Roman Catholicism" and you're still wrong but much righter. The Pope has no say over almost any denomination of Christianity other than RC (there are a few oddities that aren't worth focusing on) and is by no stretch "undeniable authority" over the RCC - in fact, vast swathes of Catholic history have been determining exactly that relationship.

In general, think of his power as that of Obama over the US.  He's the most important single figure but his power is constrained by other bodies (the college of Cardinals, the Curia, arguably the Episcopate) and he needs to be aware of those bodies and their politics to guide his agenda.

ETA: We actually had a recent example of that - Benedict 16 being essentially forced from office by the Curia.  Massive oversimplification but generally right.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 11:57:25 AM by Kythia »

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2014, 01:07:27 PM »
So , if you had any authority over the incident Valthazar , what would you propose to be done?

My belief is that Islam practiced on an individual basis, or even in a local community setting, is a wonderful thing (much as you are expressing yourself).  One of my best friends in college was Muslim, and he was very devout in going to the mosque and praying daily.  However, he realized that this was his personal faith, and that Islam should not affect how he chose to interact with others in our Western society.  He had friends of all different religions and ethnicities, and I considered him a guy just like me - except for our difference in faith.

In England though (and much of Europe), this is not what is happening.  Muslims are aggregating together in majority Islamic neighborhoods, and forcing out the indigenous population through steady cultural transformation.  This school cited in this Trojan Horse incident had a student body that was overwhelming Muslim and non-white, largely due to white flight.  This only precipitates the transformation of Western culture into Islamic culture (as is found in Pakistan, and some areas of India). 

I strongly discourage this type of clan mentality, which I should add is also found among many non-Muslim immigrant groups as well.  Groups like the MCB almost encourage primary allegiance to Islam, before allegiance to Great Britain, which has a deleterious effect in the long-run to everyone involved.

Europe needs to embrace America's melting pot approach, and place pressure on immigrants to embrace European values and ways of life.  After all, many of these immigrants are coming to the West for freedom and rule of law.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2014, 01:18:35 PM »
In England though (and much of Europe), this is not what is happening.  Muslims are aggregating together in majority Islamic neighborhoods, and forcing out the indigenous population through steady cultural transformation.  This school cited in this Trojan Horse incident had a student body that was overwhelming Muslim and non-white, largely due to white flight.  This only precipitates the transformation of Western culture into Islamic culture (as is found in Pakistan, and some areas of India).
Without speaking on the wider issue, there's something here that confuses me. How is "white flight" something perpetrated on wider culture by the minority? Are they harassing people until they move, or are they just... existing, but with a different cultural background and skin colour?

The ethnicity and religion of my neighbour make no difference to me - hell, I've got several neighbours whose ethnicity I honestly don't know, and I know none of their religions. I am lead to believe that I am hardly alone in this. So how are people being "forced" out?

Offline Kythia

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2014, 01:21:48 PM »
or are they just... existing, but with a different cultural background and skin colour?

Much worse than that, Ephiral.  They're also speaking their filthy heathen lingo and local shops are stocking products that they might want to buy.  What's a decent person to do but flee?

Offline Retribution

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2014, 01:22:11 PM »
Kythia hit it right and since you have been so kind to educate me I can offer you some if you would like. I am Roman Catholic, I actually attended Catholic high school but that was more about private education than religion in my case. I actually work with a Pakistani fellow who is Muslim, but he attended Catholic school for a similar reason but I digress.

Anyway, the reason it is called Roman Catholic is it dates to Roman times, the original Christian church. The office of Pope and Cardinals traced back to the Apostles. Fast forward a thousand years or so and the Church had become so active in politics it virtually was the ruling class. With that came corruption on a mind boggling scale and eventually some devout said enough is enough and broke away and formed their own Christian churches. This is where one gets Baptists, Lutherans, hell even Amish. Eventually the Catholic church because of this saw the need to reform and it depends on who one is speaking with on how successful they think this was. That has filled up the next thousand years or so since the death of Christ. But because the church traces to the Apostles there has been a ruling structure in place from the virtual beginning.

Other Christian branches may be equally or less organized, but I feel like none are more organized. You also have factions in the Catholic Church. For example I am an American Catholic and we tend to be more liberal than our European counterparts. All my opinion but I think I got it close. As a side note, there are extreme hate groups in the US who view someone like me much the same as they do someone of Jewish faith, color, or differing sexual orientation. They resent the central power structure of the Church and honestly feel in some cases like with the Ku Klux Klan that those of Catholic faith should be exterminated. But that is extreme and rare, though it was not long ago that it was a big deal that John Kennedy, a Catholic was elected president because of fear of the reach of the Vatican.

Soooooo, central power I reckon has it's good and it's bad.

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2014, 01:25:16 PM »
Without speaking on the wider issue, there's something here that confuses me. How is "white flight" something perpetrated on wider culture by the minority? Are they harassing people until they move, or are they just... existing, but with a different cultural background and skin colour?

The ethnicity and religion of my neighbour make no difference to me - hell, I've got several neighbours whose ethnicity I honestly don't know, and I know none of their religions. I am lead to believe that I am hardly alone in this. So how are people being "forced" out?

You are right, minorities are not causing any trouble or anything.  But they also possess unique cultural traditions and ways of life.

I'm a minority, and I know other Indians who want to live together in majority Indian neighborhoods.  For example, look at New Jersey - there are clusters of neighborhoods that are entirely Indian, and no one takes issue with this.  These are productive, hard-working citizens, who interact with all members of society, but simply prefer to live in a neighborhood with other individuals sharing their customs and traditions.

Just like that, why is it so wrong for the indigenous population (British Caucasians), to want to relocate to areas that are majority white?

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2014, 01:31:30 PM »
Much worse than that, Ephiral.  They're also speaking their filthy heathen lingo and local shops are stocking products that they might want to buy.  What's a decent person to do but flee?

Oh, wow. I didn't realise it was anything near that horribly oppressive. I withdraw my objections. (Good to see you again, BTW. I will resume my daily prostrations before your altar.)

You are right, minorities are not causing any trouble or anything.  But they also possess unique cultural traditions and ways of life.

I'm a minority, and I know other Indians who want to live together in majority Indian neighborhoods.  For example, look at New Jersey - there are clusters of neighborhoods that are entirely Indian, and no one takes issue with this.  These are productive, hard-working citizens, who interact with all members of society, but simply prefer to live in a neighborhood with other individuals sharing their customs and traditions.

Just like that, why is it so wrong for the indigenous population (British Caucasians), to want to relocate to areas that are majority white?
Well, ethnic enclaves in general (white or otherwise) are kinda problematic because they tend to help reinforce us-and-them mentalities. White enclaves in particular are problematic because of a historical pattern of bringing a lot of questionably legal power to bear on keeping everyone else out. But that's beside the point - what I'm questioning here is the framing of this as an aggressive act by minorities, rather than a completely voluntary decision by white people.

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2014, 01:33:26 PM »
Muslims are aggregating together in majority Islamic neighborhoods, and forcing out the indigenous population through steady cultural transformation.
...
Europe needs to embrace America's melting pot approach

 
Just like that, why is it so wrong for the indigenous population (British Caucasians), to want to relocate to areas that are majority white?

Offline ValthazarTopic starter

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2014, 01:42:51 PM »
But that's beside the point - what I'm questioning here is the framing of this as an aggressive act by minorities, rather than a completely voluntary decision by white people.

I don't think it is wrong for the indigenous British to want to preserve their customs and ways of life.

Given that 77% of British want a reduction in immigration levels, I really can't fault them for wanting to live in ethnic white British communities, and feeling that government policy is threatening their ways of life.

My relatives in New Jersey have Diwali celebrations where all the neighbors on the street cook food, and do an elaborate celebration.  They also have weekly get-togethers where the families socialize like they would back in India.  I don't think it's a bad thing - after all, these people are not isolating anyone, they participate in larger society for their jobs.

So I can't really fault the indigenous British for wanting to live in neighborhoods where they can participate in the customs of their parents.  Like organizing the community events they grew up with (which I am obviously not familiar with myself).

@Kythia - These immigrant groups I was referencing are distinctly American by all accounts.  Their primary allegiance is to the USA, which is what I advocate for all immigrant groups.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 01:45:09 PM by Valthazar »

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2014, 01:48:53 PM »
I don't think it is wrong for the indigenous British to want to preserve their customs and ways of life.

Given that 77% of British want a reduction in immigration levels, I really can't fault them for wanting to live in ethnic white British communities, and feeling that government policy is threatening their ways of life.

My relatives in New Jersey have Diwali celebrations where all the neighbors on the street cook food, and do an elaborate celebration.  They also have weekly get-togethers where the families socialize like they would back in India.  I don't think it's a bad thing - after all, these people are not isolating anyone, they participate in larger society for their jobs.

So I can't really fault the indigenous British for wanting to live in neighborhoods where they can participate in the customs of their parents.  Like organizing the community events they grew up with (which I am obviously not familiar with myself).

@Kythia - These immigrant groups I was referencing are distinctly American by all accounts.  Their primary allegiance is to the USA, which is what I advocate for all immigrant groups.

I still do not see how any of this is wrong , yet I do not see how it applies to the discussion at hand.

Anyone is free to live where they wish to live , and as long as they do not break the rules of the country they live in , there's no harm in how they choose to socialize.

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2014, 01:49:16 PM »
My relatives in New Jersey have Diwali celebrations where all the neighbors on the street cook food, and do an elaborate celebration.  They also have weekly get-togethers where the families socialize like they would back in India.

@Kythia - These immigrant groups I was referencing are distinctly American by all accounts.

This is fun

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 01:52:27 PM »
Kythia, I don't think you understood my statement.

There is nothing wrong with immigrant groups practicing their customs as a group (or ethnic British for that matter), but what unites all these groups is a shared pride and primary allegiance for the United States.  It is problematic when a group such as the MCB is playing the allegiance of Islam ahead of Great Britain.

There really isn't a culture called "American."  I was referencing the American culture of diverse expression, but a common faith in our American values and ideals.

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2014, 01:53:48 PM »
This is why I live a half mile from my nearest neighbor  :-) I do not have to deal with any of it.

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2014, 02:03:44 PM »
I don't think it is wrong for the indigenous British to want to preserve their customs and ways of life.

Given that 77% of British want a reduction in immigration levels, I really can't fault them for wanting to live in ethnic white British communities, and feeling that government policy is threatening their ways of life.
That's nice. It's also not really a response to anything I said or asked.

Why are you framing white flight as aggression by minorities, rather than a voluntary decision by white people?

@Kythia - These immigrant groups I was referencing are distinctly American by all accounts.  Their primary allegiance is to the USA, which is what I advocate for all immigrant groups.
I think Kythia's point here is that you cannot simultaneously support the melting-pot approach of deliberately embracing multiculturalism and white enclaves and white flight. Well, unless you're willing to admit that your reasoning includes "It's different because they're white."

If I'm wrong, I'm sure she will correct me.

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2014, 02:08:23 PM »
Kythia, I don't think you understood my statement.

There is nothing wrong with immigrant groups practicing their customs as a group (or ethnic British for that matter), but what unites all these groups is a shared pride and primary allegiance for the United States.  It is problematic when a group such as the MCB is playing the allegiance of Islam ahead of Great Britain.

There really isn't a culture called "American."  I was referencing the American culture of diverse expression, but a common faith in our American values and ideals.

OK, I'll actually engage.  But only briefly, going out in a bit. 

What on earth makes you think the Muslim Council of Britain's first allegiance should be to anything other than Islam?  Seriously, what the hell has given you that impression? 

But that aside, the Muslim Council of Britain weren't involved in operation Trojan Horse.  An ex-member was.  You can see the highlights of the report here with more information on the pages that you yourself link to in the first page.  Again, not clear where you've got that idea from, nothing in this thread beyond your repeated assertions that it's true supports it.

And is there a culture called "British"?  Am I it?  My step-father was born in Bradford, is he it?  I'm happy to agree that American doesn't exist, I'm curious why Eid celebrations and Sharia law aren't British.  They didn't originate here?  Neither did the concept of the monarchy but I think few would argue that the monarchy is a part of British culture, insofar as it exists.

Finally, yes.  Ephiral hit my point spot on.

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Re: Muslims in UK - Operation Trojan Horse
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2014, 02:09:12 PM »
Why are you framing white flight as aggression by minorities, rather than a voluntary decision by white people?

The irony in all of this is that I'm not white, and I really have no stake in this perspective.  But for the sake of discussion, here's the reason:

Britain belongs to the British, and any immigration into their country should be supported by their indigenous citizenry.  When 77% of the population is not supporting current immigration trends, it is most certainly threatening to their ways of life.

I think Kythia's point here is that you cannot simultaneously support the melting-pot approach of deliberately embracing multiculturalism and white enclaves and white flight. Well, unless you're willing to admit that your reasoning includes "It's different because they're white."

Here's what I'm saying:

Minorities can form communities and neighborhoods with their own cultural traditions.  At the same time, ethnic British should also be able to form communities and neighborhoods to carry out their own ways of life. 

The caveat, however, is that all these groups are united by the common governing principles of the host country.

Again, in my opinion, the host country ultimately determines immigration trends, as is desired by their citizenry.