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Author Topic: Cis and Trans...  (Read 1201 times)

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Offline ImaginedScenes

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2014, 01:36:12 PM »
Maybe a comparison would help, yeah?

Quote
I have a somewhat unrelated question pertaining to *female dark roleplayers* among the ERP communities online. Well, mostly f-list, in some games like WoW, and a few other places since I haven't really had any encounters here on E.

Namely, there's quite a few people that I've met ONLINE in ERP communities who claim to be *women* but they've always left a rather bad impression upon me. Let me explain why...

They all share all of the following traits:

*They are heavily into *extreme* stuff (they prefer to *go all out*). They are often dominant or lean towards dominant *or submissive or lean toward submissive*.

*They are either '*smutty*' or highly prefer *smut* over *plot* in their *stories*. Basically they -could- accept a '*plot with smut*' but *nonsexual roleplays* are a nono.

*They are heavily into *long-post writing*.

*They use lots of vulgar slang like '*fucktoy*' and have a very vulgar sense of humour, which you'd expect from a '*big daddy dom*'.

So what is my problem with them? Well, I always get this cognitive dissonance in my head... were these people really honest in their conduct of their *sexuality*? Because all of the above traits that I've listed apply to *kinky men*. Women don't usually behave this way or have such preferences...

So I was wondering, could there possibly be people out there who are merely fooling themselves into thinking they are *into dark kinks* out of some sort of self-hatred or other reason? I'm not meaning to offend anyone here but I've noticed this online 'fad' to *say you like dark roleplay* when the person is in fact quite *happy doing common kinks*. However, their own belief in their *darkness* can in fact cause them to emulate the symptoms which makes it hard -not- to *think they only like dark roleplay* or whatever.

I know this because I used to think I *liked dark roleplay* too when I was younger but I was in fact making everything up as an excuse to *be like other people*. I wasn't doing this entirely on purpose - life can be quite confusing at times and lack of experiences and feedback can lead one astray.

Sounds silly to me. What you experienced might not be what other people do. Women might not talk about their darker kinks very often. Doesn't mean women who mostly prefer dark things don't exist or are confused.

Not all people who would say they are "kinky" or "into dark stuff" like the same things. Not all people who are transgender like the same things.


The first post makes sense in a way. People wouldn't say they are either "dark" or "kinky" or "vanilla" like those were three clearly different types of sexuality. Doesn't mean the words are useless.

Offline PantheanTopic starter

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2014, 05:00:34 PM »
This.  I've met straight females who could make Samuel L. Jackson blush with embarrassment.  And from the look of things, they were quite comfortable with being females - I wasn't about to engage further.  I've met men who were the soul of politeness and gentility - and could still kick your ass in PvP or on the field.  And again, quite comfortable with being male.  (Some of those 'bros' could take a page from that playbook - it would probably help their luck with women.)

There are cross-players - men and women who prefer playing the opposite gender, but have no dissonance regarding their physical sex or their sexuality.  Some of them write straight, some of them write gay, some are polite, some are crude - you get the picture. 

And I'm sure that there are some actual transsexuals who fit everything you described, while others don't.  I have a few friends who aren't on here, who are either transitioning or would if they had the money/access/medical clearance.  They are as varied as the other people I've described above.  One is very meek and mild, one is brash and occasionally crude (not in as extreme a manner as you described - sie is a person I like being around after all), one is supremely self-confident and refined.

Elliquiy is one of the few sites that actively tries to disentangle ones sexual preferences and gender identity.  Most others don't, and lying about one or the other may be seen as a way into otherwise unattainable areas - be it the woman who uses a male 'toon' so that other players take her seriously in WoW, or a man who uses a female 'toon' to take advantage of others; or even Tom Hanks and Peter Scolari trying to score an affordable apartment.

Up until I got back onto E a couple weeks back, I played almost exclusively female characters. I wouldn't think it has an effect or is affected by my sexuality, gender identity, etc, but I can't say one way or another for certain because, and if this statement makes any sense to anyone, "I live inside my own head." What I mean by that is that my perspective may be flawed but I wouldn't be able to tell because it is my perspective. I have come up with numerous excuses to hand to people as to why I prefer to play, nearly exclusively, female characters, but in reality, I'm not 100% sure myself. In some way I feel like I can write a better female character than male one, which is of course entirely dependent upon my own ideas of gender. In other ways, I feel like it's easier to connect to the in-character situations and connect with others when I play as a female character. Neither of these things are because I know how women think or feel or act, but actually because I don't know these things, and it allows me to stretch and develop my female characters better than the male ones because I am less inhibited by my own ideas of what constitutes a "female" as opposed to a "male" character.

I have quite often played "shemale" characters, that is, otherwise female characters that have swapped genitalia (not transgender characters). So... let me help you understand some of your bad stereotypes, Sheoldred...

I have a somewhat unrelated question pertaining MtF transsexuals among the ERP communities online. Well, mostly f-list, in some games like WoW, and a few other places since I haven't really had any encounters here on E.

Namely, there's quite a few people that I've met ONLINE in ERP communities who claim to be transsexuals but they've always left a rather bad impression upon me. Let me explain why...

They all share all of the following traits:

*They are heavily into futa stuff(they prefer to have a dick). They are often dominant or lean towards dominant.

*They are either 'lesbian' or highly prefer femininity over masculinity in their partners. Basically they -could- accept a 'femboy' but masculine men are a nono.

*They are heavily into gaming.

*They use lots of vulgar slang like 'get rekt, m8' and have a very vulgar sense of humour, which you'd expect from a 'bro'.

So what is my problem with them? Well, I always get this cognitive dissonance in my head... were these people really honest in their conduct of their gender? Because all of the above traits that I've listed apply to straight men. Women don't usually behave this way or have such preferences...

So I was wondering, could there possibly be people out there who are merely fooling themselves into thinking they are transgender out of some sort of self-hatred or other reason? I'm not meaning to offend anyone here but I've noticed this online 'fad' to diagnose oneself with ADHD or depression when the person is in fact quite healthy. However, their own belief in their mental illness can in fact cause them to emulate the symptoms which makes it hard -not- to diagnose them with depression or whatever.

I know this because I used to think I have mental problems too when I was younger but I was in fact making everything up as an excuse to not take responsibility for my own failures. I wasn't doing this entirely on purpose - life can be quite confusing at times and lack of experiences and feedback can lead one astray.

"They" do not prefer to have a dick and are heavily into dominant stuff. Personally, I pull out a "shemale" character when I'm in a dominant mood because I am more familiar with having a penis. It has everything to do with knowing what it is to receive a certain type of sexual pleasure. As a male, I have no idea what it would feel like to receive cunnilingus (well I mean I sort of understand what it must be like, but I couldn't possibly know the actual feelings and sensations there). I see being dominant to be, more often than not, the one receiving pleasure, and so that gets extremely dull and difficult to roleplay if I try to play a dominant female character. So what you are seeing, I could only assume, is not a massive number of "shemale" characters all being played by people who prefer to be exclusively dominant, you are seeing only half of those players' personality.

"They" are not always lesbian or prefer "feminine" partners. Statistically speaking, if most of these players are male, and most of those are straight, then it's perfectly logical to conclude that the majority of them would prefer partner characters of a more feminine variety. If you look at gender roles and society, you will see that masculinity is perceived as dominant... in the work force, in social gatherings, and in the bedroom. Personally, I do buy into that quite a bit, even though I probably shouldn't. At any rate you also have to consider personal attitudes toward different body types. Personally, I just don't enjoy bulky, muscular characters, so most of my male partner characters wouldn't be very strong or large, and more often than not, would not fit the dominant male archetype, since most of the more muscular male characters are used in dominant settings and the less so are used more in submissive settings. Basically this one boils down to personal preferences, sexuality, and the statistical probability that the player behind the character is a straight male. Have all of the ones you've interacted with told you specifically that they were transgender? I imagine that if you have an issue with this group, then you would limit your interactions and you actually wouldn't know for sure.

The idea that "they" are heavily into gaming, again, boils down to statistics. Though more women are playing games now, most of those who play video games are male. Nearly all of the online roleplayers own and use a computer on a day-to-day basis, many are on their computers all the time. People who are on their computers more often are more likely to be the type of people who enjoy playing video games, particularly computer games. I bet you would find that most rp's in-general play video games, and that it's not something specific to "them." Personally, I do enjoy video games. Statistically speaking, anyone you talk to online, more-so in online communities like these, is very likely to play video games, at least casually.

First off, that's not vulgar. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that it is vulgar, but you and I have a very different idea of what vulgarity is. As far as this alleged "bro talk," you are stereotyping, plain and simple. I certainly don't talk that way, not unless I'm making fun of someone who is. Yet I have seen many women use this language, and not just to fit in and be seen as "one of the guys." I don't know what your idea of a vulgar sense of humor is since our perception of the word are so clearly so very different, so I couldn't possibly comment on that.

The fact that you have a problem with "them" shows that you exhibit some pretty stereotypical views of people. I keep saying "them" because you seem to want to loop these players together, but the fact of the matter is that many of these players are just as diverse as any other random group of players. There is no "them." The only "them" here are those who loop a bunch of random players together based on a few misled assumptions.

Playing cross-gender characters or mixed-gender characters is not a sign of a confused gender identity. And playing characters of an orientation not your own is not a sign of a confused sexuality. You seem to have a very narrow idea of what a straight male should act like when playing characters online... and that seems to be that you think they shouldn't, and that if they do, it somehow makes them gay or transsexual.

I don't know why it is that you think that the majority of these types of players "misdiagnose" themselves as transgender. I'm not even sure what led you to believe that so many of them identified as transgender in the first place. I can only imagine that you must have a very small selection of individuals that you must be basing your findings on, because from what I've seen, based on my friends and my own personal experience, is that all of the things you described are unrelated, and you have a strange and woefully misinformed idea of the players behind "shemale" characters.

Offline lilhobbit37

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2014, 07:11:12 PM »
I just wanted to also point out one thing Sheoldred. You mentioned WoW and specifically to that game, a large portion of the erp'ers on WoW are trolls getting a laugh out of it.

So if that is your only sample that you are making your assessments from, you have to ask yourself how accurate the information you may have is. To a point, I always say take someone at face value, that what they say is truth. But also keep in mind your venue. If you are on Moonguard in Goldshire, it is easy to tell that many people there are there simply to troll and laugh at those that may be there to truly get into erp.

If this is where you are taking your data from, it will inevitably be horribly skewed because there is no way for you to distinguish who is trolling or saying things for personal laughs/to see if they can fool you, and who is being serious and truthful.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2014, 07:47:25 PM »
Though more women are playing games now, most of those who play video games are male.

I've been reading this thread on and off but I just wanted to point out, this is no longer true.

The largest audience group in video games currently is 18-30something(I believe the group was) women.

There are more women playing games than men now.

Offline PantheanTopic starter

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2014, 08:05:00 PM »
I've been reading this thread on and off but I just wanted to point out, this is no longer true.

The largest audience group in video games currently is 18-30something(I believe the group was) women.

There are more women playing games than men now.

Oh, really?

This information excludes things like facebook games, I hope... A lot of facebook games and flash games that are hardly at the level of platform games have screwed up a lot of gaming statistics. Many of those are what more serious gamers would not even consider a game because they are too simple and lack any real depth or story structure.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2014, 08:12:43 PM »
Look, let's not start the 'THEY'RE NOT REAL GAMERS' thing.

Even if it -did- include facebook games, they're still games.

You shouldn't try to exclude results just because it doesn't use your definition of what a 'real' game is.

They're still games.

I don't know if they were included or not, but it doesn't matter.

Offline PantheanTopic starter

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2014, 08:30:08 PM »
Look, let's not start the 'THEY'RE NOT REAL GAMERS' thing.

Even if it -did- include facebook games, they're still games.

You shouldn't try to exclude results just because it doesn't use your definition of what a 'real' game is.

They're still games.

I don't know if they were included or not, but it doesn't matter.

Woah, slow down there, I'm not trying to single out any group of people. I'm pointing out that there's a difference between Red Dead Redemption and Farmville. Games in the sense that I am used to them is not the money-grabbing time-wasters that they put on facebook. While it fits the loose definition of what a "game" could be, when we're talking about video games, we need to differentiate between narrative storytelling and the button-mashers.

I also exclude most sport games like EA's annual releases. Though high quality, they lack a real narrative. We need to separate these collections in the same way types of reading are selected. It's the same reason that reading the newspaper doesn't make you a fan of literature.

If we're using the broader term of "game" then it also includes football, chess, and polo and these certainly aren't the kind of data we're looking for.

When we're talking about games like WoW, and Call of Duty, we're talking about a different audience than those who play poker online.

The context we have here is Sheoldred's post. Though we don't have much to go on I think it'd be still safe to assume that he's talking more about narrative video games. Assuming that's the case, yes, it does matter, and those games do not count in the data. And if your finding is based on that data, then the finding is invalid.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2014, 09:00:20 PM »
No one is trying to exclude any group. (I'm certainly not, since I want to include... you know all games.)

Did he actually mention anywhere that he was talking about 'narrative' games only?

Also, did it not occur that possibly the survey counted all games like a survey about games without a bias or a goal would count since they're all games regardless of whatever definition you would like to try to use?

We're using the term "Video Game". Which as far as I remember, covers pretty much all electronic games. Sports, mobile, RPG, action, FPS, and yes, even the 'dreaded' facebook game.

We should not be trying to exclude people from results just because those results don't match what we want them to look like.

We're not going to haggle about the results of a study just because you don't agree with whatever imagined criteria you think they used.

Edit- So turns out I'm wrong anyway(But only slightly). I asked a friend about this and they clarified and found the actual study for me.

Here are relevant links if you're interested.

The misleading fact(that I misread/misunderstood/whatever) in question is this:
 
Quote
Women age 18 or older represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (36%) than boys age 18 or younger (17%)

Men(52%) make up a greater population than women(48%) of gamers. But the 'gamer' demographic(<18 males who most games are marketed to) is actually much much smaller than the portion of women over 18 who play games.

Fun fact: The majority of gamers are actually casual gamers. Both male and female. 30% of all gamers are 'casual' with no gender breakup. Next is 28%  with puzzle/board/trivia/card games. THEN is the 'normal' game at 24%(Action, FPS, RPG, etc), and bringing up the rear are MMOs at 11%, and 'other'(whatever that means) at 8%.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 09:21:19 PM by Slywyn »

Offline ImaginedScenes

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #33 on: September 11, 2014, 06:46:35 PM »
Panthean's post about playing other characters as a male was great. Can we go back to talking about things like that?

The whole "what's a gamer" thing isn't going to be resolved. I don't think anyone knows how many people who play RPGs are men vs women or how many people who play FPS are women. Not really relevant anyway. All that matters is why people do what they do. Can't say that playing an RPG makes a person like a certain thing or another when roleplaying. Would be different if you named a specific game maybe. But it isn't like people put down their gender and roleplaying preferences every time they make a purchase.

Offline Slywyn

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #34 on: September 11, 2014, 07:54:27 PM »
I just wanted to point out that something that used to be true no longer was. Not letting 'common knowledge' that was wrong stay wrong.

But, you know, people wanted to pull 'not real gamers', sooooooo

Offline PantheanTopic starter

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #35 on: September 11, 2014, 10:00:39 PM »
I just wanted to point out that something that used to be true no longer was. Not letting 'common knowledge' that was wrong stay wrong.

But, you know, people wanted to pull 'not real gamers', sooooooo

At no point have I made that argument. At no point have I said anything about excluding people based on their gender. Saying that I made that argument is all but an attack. It is a well-known sexist argument, and by saying that I made it is trying to label me as a misogynist.

The only one who even uttered that phrase was you.

I didn't even come close to making that point. I've argued about narrowing the scope of research to make it more relevant to the topic at hand.

Offline Ephiral

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Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #36 on: September 11, 2014, 10:04:34 PM »
At no point have I made that argument. At no point have I said anything about excluding people based on their gender. Saying that I made that argument is all but an attack. It is a well-known sexist argument, and by saying that I made it is trying to label me as a misogynist.

The only one who even uttered that phrase was you.

I didn't even come close to making that point. I've argued about narrowing the scope of research to make it more relevant to the topic at hand.
From an outside perspective - and I totally get that this might not have been your intent - that looked a lot like the road you were headed down. I'd certainly say you 'came close', even if it was unintentional.

I'd suggest we take the stats as an interesting example of how gender stereotypes can lead us astray and move on, hmm?

Offline StarStorm

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #37 on: September 11, 2014, 10:27:46 PM »
I am not sure if this really helps or even goes here but I kind of like this video that I had ran across.


Offline PantheanTopic starter

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2014, 07:50:26 AM »
From an outside perspective - and I totally get that this might not have been your intent - that looked a lot like the road you were headed down. I'd certainly say you 'came close', even if it was unintentional.

I'd suggest we take the stats as an interesting example of how gender stereotypes can lead us astray and move on, hmm?

Late response, but since no one seems to understand what I was trying to get across, I'll post this video. She explains it better than I did, pay attention to what she says about the research study.


Offline Ephiral

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Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2014, 09:19:34 AM »
I withdraw my statement - you didn't come close. That is the exact road you were headed down, if you think that video in any way supports your position. She is specifically and explicitly pulling a No True Scotsman, in order to set up for her later argument that sexism is okay because gamers are overwhelmingly male.

If you think that's support for your position, then your argument is in fact "THEY'RE NOT REAL GAMERS!". Aaaand possibly a whole bunch of other sexism apologia.

Offline Cherri Tart

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2014, 09:50:21 AM »
Why it should matter to anyone else how someone identifies themselves, or what label or name they use to describe themselves, or really, anything to do with their sexual or gender identity is really beyond me. That's pretty much my opinion in a nutshell. :)

Offline Steampunkette

Re: Cis and Trans...
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2014, 04:41:19 PM »
To answer the proposition of the OP:

The use of Cis and Trans Isomerism to express gender identity is to avoid archetypal othering. It is the same reason Heterosexual or Straight exists.

By saying there are "Men" and "Trans Men" you put a qualifier on one of two people. They're not a "Man" they're a "Trans Man". It presents a position where there is normal and abnormal and the assumption is that everyone is normal save those who are different.

Do you understand the social and political ramifications of othering?

That's not even getting into the issues of sex being a social construct, itself, that broadly attempts to cover massive categories of variables and variances that constantly move the goalposts on defining what traits are or aren't required to be a binary gender.

So yeah. Cisgender is a necessary term to remind everyone that being born in the gender you identify with is not the baseline of humanity upon which all other experiences are variations. It's just a common occurrence thanks to social and psychological gender assumptions our society makes using such a broad net that most people fit into it pretty easily.