Consortium, I have very little to say on your first point, as frankly it is so limited in scope as to be beyond useless.
Moreover, can you not see the basic issue with the position you're presenting?
One of the things that came out of the Rochdale inquiry was that the way offences were recorded, viewed and reported was woefully inadequate at least partially down to a fear of appearing racist. Allegations weren't recorded, if they were the alleged abuser's race wasn't recorded, offenses were treated as a one-off rather than part of a larger pattern, an offence by a gang would be treated as lots of individual incidents rather than as a group etc etc. One of the key points of the investigation is that the break down in the system made it incredibly difficult to get accurate statistics and that this was at least partially down to the race of the abusers.
And now you want detailed stats on the race of the abusers before we can note there's an issue in the British-Pakistani Muslim community when it comes to child sexual abuse.
One way of proving the merits of the focus on race and religion would be to show that Pakistani Muslims are vastly overrepresented among sex traffickers as a population, sure.
Or you could show that Pakistan in particular has an overwhelmingly high rate of sex trafficking.
Or you could quote authoritative Islamic sources saying that sex trafficking is good or desirable or pious.
Or any number of other things that would demonstrate in any way
that these people being Pakistani or Muslim has any
bearing on their being sex offenders.In the absence of any such context
, continuing to focus on their race and religion is... well, yeah, pretty much textbook bigotry. I apologize for not making that perfectly clear.
As the above quote shows, you think that that to point out that there were groups of Pakistani Muslim men grooming, raping and pimping young girls is racist.
Now you ask for evidence relating to groups of Pakistani Muslim men grooming, raping and pimping young girls.
I think that constantly returning, again and again, to their ethnicity and religion when it has not been demonstrated that this has any bearing on their crime is racist. And I ask for evidence that it has some bearing on their crime. Hopefully this will clear the matter up for you. It would not be racist, and I will gladly concede the point, if there was any element of this that was uniquely Pakistani or Muslim, or if Pakistanis or Muslims were disproportionately represented among perpetrators of this crime as a whole. Nobody has even pretended to have anything showing this.
Unfortunately a similar logic was used when dealing with the real world rather than online debates and as part of that 1,400 (conservative estimate) girls were abused while being failed by the authorities and services which were meant to protect them. At least partially because they thought it was racist to point out that there were groups of Pakistani Muslim men grooming, raping and pimping young girls. Can't offend the wider community right? Can't ask for serious engagement on the basis that there's an issue? Need to hush it up. Need to steal and destroy the data relating to it when someone pointed it out.
That's funny, I thought I said this should be handled as a massive sex-abuse case. Oh, wait, I did. I have not supported, and never will support, ignoring a problem like this. What I question is the huge focus that the media and conversations surrounding this issue have on the race and creed of the perpetrators - while ignoring the race and downplaying the religion of perpetrators of the same damn crime
when they just happen to be white Christians.
If you care to look back, the line you quoted was part of a paragraph. The key line (note the emphasis) in that paragraph was "Having a different standard because the people involved are a different colour is racism." That is the standard I am holding to.
If the authorities had put the half the effort into preventing abuse that they did into not appearing racist then maybe a few hundred less girls would have been abused.
Sure. And I'd be all for that. See, here's the thing: I don't think that arresting people for things they actually did do, provided that those things are actually illegal and people of other skin colours woudn't be given a pass by police (neither of which appears to be a factor here), is racist. I do think a police department worrying more about its image than about actual abuse victims
is completely disgusting. This does not change the fact that the overwhelming majority of the media and of discussions surrounding this issue are focused on race and religion with no basis.
I could also argue that image would have been way less of an issue if the police had put some effort into not actually being racist, so that their past racism wouldn't colour future actions and decisions.
Because once you establish that the offenses of this type are disproportionately committed by people from one specific you can focus resources better and provide more services for them or have a basis to engage with the wider community about how to confront the issue. As detailed in the report because there wasn't any joined up thinking or passing along information about the nature of offences (and offenders) the police and other services put very little import on engaging with the Pakistani Muslim community on the issue, at most simply passing it to traditional community leaders who were either unable or unwilling to do anything about it. One can start doing more to change a sub-culture that appears to have arisen. Without information on who to target one can't give targeted help.
And this might be something for the police or social services or other people actually on the ground doing the work to take into consideration, sure. That's a very, very far cry from media and bystandards stigmatizing over a billion people because a handful of them did horrible things.
They tried that for 16 years, looking at the abusers as individual abusers without anything tying them into a larger group. The result was at least 1,400 (a conservative estimate as the report makes clear) children being sexually abused, pimped, raped, sold to other groups and threatened with death with the failures at least partially down to the race of the abusers. This hasn't been the first report on this... Rotherham itself has had at least three reports looking at this issue. They were hushed up and buried, again at least partially because of race.
I am not saying to look at them as individuals; I am saying that public discussions should handle these perpetrators in the same fashion as they handle people who do these things that happen to look like them. This does not by any means preclude looking at a network as a network.
Which communities in the UK would that be? The only other one that comes to mind is the Roma... one that the police have actually engaged with quite significantly and is starting to come closer into wider society.
Okay, at this point I'm sure I was terrible
at expressing my point earlier. I apologise for this. I think this is exactly the right approach to take - certainly better than the old standby of painting them all as criminals because of their ethnicity. That's... kinda my problem here. By making the discussion of the issue center on "Pakistani Muslim abusers", all Pakistani people and all Muslims are tarnished by association.
Just on the YFZ Ranch issue...
1) So far I haven't been able to find a single news report on the Ranch which doesn't mention it was owned, operated and occupied by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and its members. Many also make direct connections between the religion and the abuse.
Sure, but that's not what I asked, is it? That's downplaying it as a single very specific splinter of a specific sect of Christianity, not painting them as just "Christians". The equivalent is not
happening here - these offenders are described simply as "Muslim".
EDIT: In fact, I'd say the way religion is handled in the YFZ case is pretty similar to the way it's used here - to find definitions of "us" and "them" where all people who do horrifying things conveniently fall under "them". This is something I have an issue with, because it reinforces the idea that nobody we think of as "us" could possibly do these things - which blinds us to incidents that actually happen. How often have you heard of abusers flying under the radar because people didn't think they could possibly be the type?
2) As I understand it pretty much as soon as the authorities received a report of abuse there (and I understand that specific report was actually a hoax) they went in metaphoric guns blazing and pretty much immediately evacuated the children to safety (in general; I'm not making a comment on the safety of the foster system). In contrast in Rotherham abused girls were returned to their abusers and certain Muslim councillors demanded that social workers reveal the whereabouts of Pakistani women who had fled abuse or effect reconciliation rather than supporting the women to make up their own minds.
This has no bearing on the focus of discussion, which is what I've been trying to talk about here (admittedly poorly).
Perhaps it would be wise to give a few words to the prosecutor who finally forced through the prosecutions of one grooming gang in Rochdale and helped spark this investigation... a Muslim of Pakistani descent himself:
an angle worth exploring and examining in depth in the context of race. There are almost certain to be some social policy changes that will come about because of this, which will hopefully prevent this situation in the future. In this context
, focusing on race would make sense.
It shouldn't be an issue reporting race of suspects, as long as one reports race and probable cause of investigation for all suspects everywhere.
kylie highlights my issue here beautifully: That sort of equal treatment is not happening
. This is a problem.