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Author Topic: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?  (Read 1595 times)

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Offline Retribution

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2014, 10:39:25 AM »

The fundamental flaw here seems to be that some police are looking at the protestors/potential rioters with an "us versus them" mentality.  That the protestors/potential rioters are the enemy and they must be defeated.  But that isn't how police should work. 


Sir, while I am not a sworn or armed officer thank god I am employed in law enforcement as a civil authority. I have nearly been killed in the line of duty four times over the course of a 24 year career. Those who are friends and family and work as sworn officers have had it much worse than me. Let me direct you back to the link I posted in my initial response to this thread about the officer who was killed along with his k9 partner when an assailant got his hands on his weapon.

Come back and lecture me on proper behavior when you have nearly died in the line.

Good day ~R~

EDIT now that my blood pressure has lowered some. I understand a softer approach very well may have been the proper answer in Ferguson. In fact fellow law enforcement types have called out the chief http://www.al.com/news/mobile/index.ssf/2014/08/gulf_shores_police_chief_calls.html So my above response was a bit harsh and I am sorry for loosing my temper. The fact remains though that not all of the people out there in the world are rational, kind, thoughtful, or even nice for that matter. It sadly leaves us with the fact that kinder and gentler does not always work. It is put in very stark perspective when one finds themselves in a position of wondering if they are going home at the end of the shift.]
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 11:10:41 AM by Retribution »

Offline Cycle

Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2014, 11:13:45 AM »
I am employed in law enforcement as a civil authority. ...  It is put in very stark perspective when one finds themselves in a position of wondering if they are going home at the end of the shift.

Retribution, I thank you for your contribution. 

I did not mean to offend.  But I did, and for that, I apologize.

I think I've said my share on this issue and will refrain from further postings.

Offline Retribution

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2014, 11:21:23 AM »
It is all good Cycle I find your responses thought out even if I do not agree. There was no need for my temper it just hit pretty darn close to home. And thank you as well.

Offline Neysha

Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2014, 04:27:59 PM »
Wooo red herrings and hyperbole for the win!



Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before."

Of course. But the most heavy equipment German police is ever going to carry when dealing with protesters is
  • riot gear
  • standard issue 9mm pistol
  • baton
  • can of mace
If shit's really about to hit the fan, units mounted on horse will be employed, perhaps even a water cannon. Still, that absolutely can't be compared to the military grade weapons and armored vehicles used in Ferguson.







*looks harmless*

















And other Europeans are even more formidable!































« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 06:20:09 PM by Neysha »

Offline Passion and Desire

Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2014, 09:06:16 PM »

A mobile water cannon. Not used by the military. Never been to a war zone. Unlike humvees and bearcats.


A picture of a German policeman in riot gear with a Tac700 launcer (a glorified paintball marker with 20-50m range). Any bets how that compares to tactical body armor, M4 carbine rifles, and 37mm grenade launchers?


Nice find, didn't know about that vehicle before. That image is from 2007, and the event was an ASEM meeting in Hamburg. You'd expect "something" when the foreign secretaries of about 50 nations meet in a city, don't you?


Ah well, the always popular CASTOR transports. A tiresome and controversal topic for sure. Yes, that vehicle was imo neither appropriate nor necessary in that situation.


So you say that a host nation shouldn't take security measures when 28 heads of state/goverment (including the president of the USA) meet in a single location? Because that's where that image is from - NATO summit 2009 in Strasbourg/Kehl.


Did you really just google for "German police weapons" or something, without reading a single word about the images' backgrounds? This image is from 2010, when the Reichstag (seat of the German parliament) was closed after thought to be targeted by an islamic terrorist cell. The weapon is an MP5, a submachine gun, which is nothing extra-ordinary for police officers guarding parts of the goverment during a threat situation.


Riot gear? Check.
Water cannon? Check.
Military hardware you'd expect in a war zone? Nope.


See comment above.


Members of the SEK, a special response unit that deals with hostage situations, sieges, and raids, not with protesters or rioters. The image supposedly shows SEK members after a man took a hostage in a Cologne nursery last year (the building was eventually stormed and the kidnapper stopped with a single shot to the shoulder).



All in all: nice attempt, but I've seen better. Several of the pictures you've posted were either taken out of context (NATO summit, ASEM meeting, ...), or didn't show police dealing with protesters (SEK members, police guarding the seat of the parliament, ...).

Please try again. :P And while you're at it, please reread my words. I never said the German police was unarmed. I never said the German police wasn't capable of getting rough. I did say that the German police doesn't use military grade equipment (assault rifles, grenade launchers, ...) when dealing with protesters. Mobile water cannons aren't military grade, no matter how bulky the trucks look.

The only image that shows a military-grade vehicle being employed reactively as a response against protesters is the one about the CASTOR transport. Those transports were a controversial topic whenever they came up, and reactions on both sides of the fence typically went overboard. Nevertheless, even those incidents and the equipment displayed and employed there are not comparable to the militarization of US law enforcement in the wake of the 1033 program. Not. Comparable. At. All.

Offline Neysha

Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2014, 09:51:59 PM »


A mobile water cannon. Not used by the military. Never been to a war zone. Unlike humvees and bearcats.

Quote
Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before."

Of course. But the most heavy equipment German police is ever going to carry when dealing with protesters is

    riot gear
    standard issue 9mm pistol
    baton
    can of mace

If shit's really about to hit the fan, units mounted on horse will be employed, perhaps even a water cannon. Still, that absolutely can't be compared to the military grade weapons and armored vehicles used in Ferguson.



Quote
A picture of a German policeman in riot gear with a Tac700 launcer (a glorified paintball marker with 20-50m range). Any bets how that compares to tactical body armor, M4 carbine rifles, and 37mm grenade launchers?

Quote
Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before."

Of course. But the most heavy equipment German police is ever going to carry when dealing with protesters is

    riot gear
    standard issue 9mm pistol
    baton
    can of mace

If shit's really about to hit the fan, units mounted on horse will be employed, perhaps even a water cannon. Still, that absolutely can't be compared to the military grade weapons and armored vehicles used in Ferguson.

Not covered on your list. :(



Quote
Nice find, didn't know about that vehicle before. That image is from 2007, and the event was an ASEM meeting in Hamburg. You'd expect "something" when the foreign secretaries of about 50 nations meet in a city, don't you?

Quote
And I never said that. What I said is that the militarization of law enforcement is utterly stupid and counterproductive on the highest scale. If you push the arms race between population and police, if you try to intimidate and shock the people you're sworn to protect, then you gain nothing and everyone loses.

Case in point. To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as governour and/or police chief. Especially when disproportionate police force was the spark that ignited this whole powder keg in the first place.

Why escalate a situation when fifty heads of state will be at risk???  ??? Is your government and police full of retards?

Quote
Ah well, the always popular CASTOR transports. A tiresome and controversal topic for sure. Yes, that vehicle was imo neither appropriate nor necessary in that situation.

Your personal opinion is irrelevant when you are fabricating lies... after all you said...

Quote
Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before."

Of course. But the most heavy equipment German police is ever going to carry when dealing with protesters is

    riot gear
    standard issue 9mm pistol
    baton
    can of mace

If shit's really about to hit the fan, units mounted on horse will be employed, perhaps even a water cannon. Still, that absolutely can't be compared to the military grade weapons and armored vehicles used in Ferguson.

Quote
So you say that a host nation shouldn't take security measures when 28 heads of state/goverment (including the president of the USA) meet in a single location? Because that's where that image is from - NATO summit 2009 in Strasbourg/Kehl.

Stop putting words in my mouth. Your attempts at strawmanning aren't productive. I'm merely posting pictures in response to this statement...

Quote
Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before."

Of course. But the most heavy equipment German police is ever going to carry when dealing with protesters is

    riot gear
    standard issue 9mm pistol
    baton
    can of mace

If shit's really about to hit the fan, units mounted on horse will be employed, perhaps even a water cannon. Still, that absolutely can't be compared to the military grade weapons and armored vehicles used in Ferguson.

Perhaps you should refrain from making reckless and provocative comments in the future?  ???




Quote
Did you really just google for "German police weapons" or something, without reading a single word about the images' backgrounds? This image is from 2010, when the Reichstag (seat of the German parliament) was closed after thought to be targeted by an islamic terrorist cell. The weapon is an MP5, a submachine gun, which is nothing extra-ordinary for police officers guarding parts of the goverment during a threat situation.

Quote
What I said is that the militarization of law enforcement is utterly stupid and counterproductive on the highest scale. If you push the arms race between population and police, if you try to intimidate and shock the people you're sworn to protect, then you gain nothing and everyone loses.

Case in point. To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as governour and/or police chief. Especially when disproportionate police force was the spark that ignited this whole powder keg in the first place.

To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as (German and anti-Muslim and Islamophobic) governour and/or police chief giving into race and religious based fear mongering.





Quote
Riot gear? Check.
Water cannon? Check.
Military hardware you'd expect in a war zone? Nope.

You've never seen riot gear deployed in a war zone? Would you like to stand by that statement or retract it?? :)

Quote
See comment above.

See ignorance above.



Quote
Members of the SEK, a special response unit that deals with hostage situations, sieges, and raids, not with protesters or rioters. The image supposedly shows SEK members after a man took a hostage in a Cologne nursery last year (the building was eventually stormed and the kidnapper stopped with a single shot to the shoulder).

Quote
What I said is that the militarization of law enforcement is utterly stupid and counterproductive on the highest scale. If you push the arms race between population and police, if you try to intimidate and shock the people you're sworn to protect, then you gain nothing and everyone loses.

Case in point. To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as governour and/or police chief. Especially when disproportionate police force was the spark that ignited this whole powder keg in the first place.

I'm glad the nursery crisis was resolved safely but to think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as (German and anti-Muslim) governour and/or police chief

Quote
All in all: nice attempt, but I've seen better. Several of the pictures you've posted were either taken out of context (NATO summit, ASEM meeting, ...), or didn't show police dealing with protesters (SEK members, police guarding the seat of the parliament, ...).


Quote
What I said is that the militarization of law enforcement is utterly stupid and counterproductive on the highest scale. If you push the arms race between population and police, if you try to intimidate and shock the people you're sworn to protect, then you gain nothing and everyone loses.

Case in point. To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as governour and/or police chief. Especially when disproportionate police force was the spark that ignited this whole powder keg in the first place.

To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as (German and anti-Muslim Islamophobic) governour and/or police chief giving into race and religious based fear mongering.

Quote
Please try again. :P And while you're at it, please reread my words. I never said the German police was unarmed. I never said the German police wasn't capable of getting rough. I did say that the German police doesn't use military grade equipment (assault rifles, grenade launchers, ...) when dealing with protesters. Mobile water cannons aren't military grade, no matter how bulky the trucks look.

I quoted what you said in my post, stop strawmanning.

Quote
Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before."

Of course. But the most heavy equipment German police is ever going to carry when dealing with protesters is

    riot gear
    standard issue 9mm pistol
    baton
    can of mace

If shit's really about to hit the fan, units mounted on horse will be employed, perhaps even a water cannon. Still, that absolutely can't be compared to the military grade weapons and armored vehicles used in Ferguson.

Quote
The only image that shows a military-grade vehicle being employed reactively as a response against protesters is the one about the CASTOR transport. Those transports were a controversial topic whenever they came up, and reactions on both sides of the fence typically went overboard. Nevertheless, even those incidents and the equipment displayed and employed there are not comparable to the militarization of US law enforcement in the wake of the 1033 program. Not. Comparable. At. All.

It is perfectly comparable. The United States doesn't have a proper national police force that isn't devoted to a specialized protective or investigative function unlike many European countries with National Police Force equivalents via Gendarmes, Carabineiri, Federal Police or others who can fulfill paramilitary functions. That is usually handled at the local, municipal, county and state level as Federal intervention is restrained due to various laws and regulations based on civil liberties as well as constitutional law. The lack of a paramilitary police force at a national level means it has to be handled by smaller jurisdictions.

Also... you missed some of my other points... so again, please stop strawmanning in a vain effort to obfuscate the fact you are making reckless statements and falsehoods in an effort to engage in provocation in what I was assuming was a civil conversation.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

































Quote
Please try again. :P

I look forward to your next try that will take several hours to write up so I can respond to it in twenty minutes again. :p
« Last Edit: August 22, 2014, 09:56:50 PM by Neysha »

Offline Passion and Desire

Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2014, 06:56:02 AM »
[...]
Since apparanetly copy-paste replying is a thing here now, let me help you understand.

I did say that the German police doesn't use military grade equipment (assault rifles, grenade launchers, ...) when dealing with protesters.
I did say that the German police doesn't use military grade equipment (assault rifles, grenade launchers, ...) when dealing with protesters.
I did say that the German police doesn't use military grade equipment (assault rifles, grenade launchers, ...) when dealing with protesters.
I did say that the German police doesn't use military grade equipment (assault rifles, grenade launchers, ...) when dealing with protesters.

and

Mobile water cannons aren't military grade, no matter how bulky the trucks look.
Mobile water cannons aren't military grade, no matter how bulky the trucks look.
Mobile water cannons aren't military grade, no matter how bulky the trucks look.
Mobile water cannons aren't military grade, no matter how bulky the trucks look.

Perhaps you get it now. And no, riot gear is also not comparable to tactical body armor soldiers use. One is designed to protect against impact and (perhaps) cuts/stabs, the other against impact, cuts/stabs, and grenade fragments/small calibre bullets. They are similar but on a different level - similar to how a kitchen knife and a katana both have blades, but no one would seriously argue that a katana is not more dangerous than a kitchen knife.

Think about this as a benchmark: would any soldier willingly use police gear in a war zone instead of military gear, when military gear is equally available? If the answer is yes, then the police hardware is military grade. If the answer is no, then the gear isn't military grade. Would a soldier wear riot gear instead of a tactical armor vest? Would a soldier use a water cannon instead of a real tank/APC? Would a soldier use a pepperball launcher instead of an assault rifle?

Edit: and fix your quotes, seriously. Your post is a mess. -.-
« Last Edit: August 23, 2014, 06:59:17 AM by Passion and Desire »

Offline Neysha

Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2014, 07:23:59 AM »
I'm sorry but this:

Quote from: Passion and Desire
I did say that the German police doesn't use military grade equipment (assault rifles, grenade launchers, ...) when dealing with protesters.

does not conflate with this...

Quote from: Passion and Desire
Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before."

Of course. But the most heavy equipment German police is ever going to carry when dealing with protesters is

    riot gear
    standard issue 9mm pistol
    baton
    can of mace

If shit's really about to hit the fan, units mounted on horse will be employed, perhaps even a water cannon. Still, that absolutely can't be compared to the military grade weapons and armored vehicles used in Ferguson.

or this...

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide







*looks harmless*

















And other Europeans are even more formidable!
































Looks like someone is [/spoiler]

Are you stating that your prior statements were just wrong, spoken out of ignorance or that you're simply engaging in provocative behavior. (because as we can tell from your posting history your obviously not on this board to RP ) :p

Also you haven't refuted this...


Quote
This image is from 2010, when the Reichstag (seat of the German parliament) was closed after thought to be targeted by an islamic terrorist cell. The weapon is an MP5, a submachine gun, which is nothing extra-ordinary for police officers guarding parts of the goverment during a threat situation.

Quote
So you say that a host nation shouldn't take security measures when 28 heads of state/goverment (including the president of the USA) meet in a single location? Because that's where that image is from - NATO summit 2009 in Strasbourg/Kehl.

Quote
the always popular CASTOR transports.

Quote
A picture of a German policeman in riot gear with a Tac700 launcer

with this...

Quote from: Passion and Desire
What I said is that the militarization of law enforcement is utterly stupid and counterproductive on the highest scale. If you push the arms race between population and police, if you try to intimidate and shock the people you're sworn to protect, then you gain nothing and everyone loses.

Case in point. To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as governour and/or police chief. Especially when disproportionate police force was the spark that ignited this whole powder keg in the first place.

Also you failed to refute this:

Quote from: Neysha
It is perfectly comparable. The United States doesn't have a proper national police force that isn't devoted to a specialized protective or investigative function unlike many European countries with National Police Force equivalents via Gendarmes, Carabineiri, Federal Police or others who can fulfill paramilitary functions. That is usually handled at the local, municipal, county and state level as Federal intervention is restrained due to various laws and regulations based on civil liberties as well as constitutional law. The lack of a paramilitary police force at a national level means it has to be handled by smaller jurisdictions.

and this:

Quote from: Neysha
You've never seen riot gear deployed in a war zone? Would you like to stand by that statement or retract it?? :)



Also please stop strawmanning my arguments. My posts are laid out very simply and with diarrheatic verbiage for your convenience.

Quote from: Passion and Desire
Edit: and fix your quotes, seriously. Your post is a mess. -.-

Fix your attitude and spelling then.  :D

You wanted an argument instead of a civil conversation, so I don't see any reason to reply in an extraordinary effort to your request. I've reviewed my previous post and the quotes seem fine. I'm trying to get clarification on why you are actively arguing against yourself and engaging in strawmanning. By laying out the quotes in that manner, it becomes more self evident.

Quote from: Passion and Desire
Perhaps you get it now. And no, riot gear is also not comparable to tactical body armor soldiers use. One is designed to protect against impact and (perhaps) cuts/stabs, the other against impact, cuts/stabs, and grenade fragments/small calibre bullets. They are similar but on a different level - similar to how a kitchen knife and a katana both have blades, but no one would seriously argue that a katana is not more dangerous than a kitchen knife.

Think about this as a benchmark: would any soldier willingly use police gear in a war zone instead of military gear, when military gear is equally available? If the answer is yes, then the police hardware is military grade. If the answer is no, then the gear isn't military grade. Would a soldier wear riot gear instead of a tactical armor vest? Would a soldier use a water cannon instead of a real tank/APC? Would a soldier use a pepperball launcher instead of an assault rifle?

Immaterial red herring when your original point was this:

Quote from: Passion and Desire
Wow...

In that case I guess the German police must be some sort of miracle worker, because they manage to deal with riots without fucking tanks and machine guns. ;)

Quote from: Passion and Desire
Oh yeah, right. I should have said "heavy military grade armored vehicles and automatic weapons that had been deployed in war zones before." That's totally different. I mean, the photos of said vehicles and weapons are all over the internet recently, it's really hard to actually miss it.

But thanks for arguing semantics and completely missing the point.

Quote from: Passion and Desire
And I never said that. What I said is that the militarization of law enforcement is utterly stupid and counterproductive on the highest scale. If you push the arms race between population and police, if you try to intimidate and shock the people you're sworn to protect, then you gain nothing and everyone loses.

Case in point. To think that an escalating tactic of more and more police force will result in a better result takes a very special kind of retard as governour and/or police chief. Especially when disproportionate police force was the spark that ignited this whole powder keg in the first place.

But thanks for arguing semantics and completely missing the point. You were engaging in hyperbole with tanks and machine gun statement and now are arguing from a completely literal and nuanced POV in stating oh... that might look shocking and intimidating to civilians, but hey... it wasn't exactly deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan... so obviously... it's not military grade.



We have evidence here of the Islamophobic German government and police engaging in stupid and counterproductive militarization of events on the highest scale, not only endangering their own citizens but even putting foreign heads of states and government officials at risk at numerous events. :(

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Re: Ferguson, Missouri... What next?
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2014, 07:29:12 AM »
Thread locked by E-Staff for at least 24 hours.